Guild Wars 2

TC has the numbers, yes. But just like the other individual said TC also is willing to give up whatever they are doing to defend whatever needs to be defended. I have seen TC in the middle of a tower siege that they were winning dissappear because one of the towers near their garrison in their home BL has come under attack. If you bring an organized guild group into TC borderlands, they will take notice and they will send the appropriate amount of force to keep you at bay (or in our case, just outside the bay).

TC may not be super-l33t PVP with hardcore guilds and youtube l33tvidz, but they obviously enjoy the game and take pride in defending their homeland, and use that communication to their advantage.

For that they get our respect.

Weekend Impressions

After trying to go into WvW periodically since Wintersday celebration has started it is obvious that CD (and it seems FA) are very preoccupied with the PvE patch and enjoying their presents. TC on the other hand does not show a loss of people playing in WvW at all. This has given our current leader an even bigger margin. I will go on a ledge to say that TC has this week to get into tier 2 or next week the point difference will be much smaller therefore making them lose points.

FA for the most part has been great in this tier. GODS and PRO are awesome and I like them as WvW guilds. However a hacking guild that uses a wall jumping mesmer to steal towers (aka GONE) has greatly ruined my impression of the server. CD is in the right spot, slightly ahead of FA and YB but tactics like that really undermine my enjoyment of the match. I would like to note it is only from one guild that I’ve seen the bypass of rules, and I hope it’s resolved one of these days for all of our sakes.

PiNK… I hate you… In an passive way. There’s soo many of you! Was it not enough that you’re on the backside of every female wardrobe?

Wait, that’s not from the guild? MARKETING FAIL!

P.S. Wintersday puzzle is too easy

Please for the love of kittens (yes, I actually typed “kittens”), do not judge a server on hackers you’ve encountered. We did a break out event in TC BL, and about 10 minutes after taking Bluebriar, we had multiple people report that a CD player hacked his way into Bluebriar and was unkillable. I, in no way, blame CD for something like that. I told these players to report the player, and that was that.

Had a great time playing my own version of GW2 Worms, batting people off the top of the EB JP last night. Thanks to all who participated!

phaneo.4597:

Guess it’s something else regarding some guild transferring over. Saw the other post after my first one. If we get guilds that exploit, I’m leaving WvWvW (not that my crappy 3hr playtime means much to server anyways, but I always held pride in fighting for a server well known for mature players) until things are set right. I’d rather lose in T3, rather than exploit my way to victory in T2. We want respectable guilds (which we have), not the one’s that are hated or feared (from that other thread).

Honestly, if this is true than you were bound to leave sometime anyway. There are bad apples out there and some are bound to show up on your door step. If you leave the server because of these bad apples than honestly you are letting them win and you will be running for the rest of your life. You can’t escape the bad apples. You can only report them and hope that Anet handles the situation appropriately.

Also, what is with this prejudgement with the guild DEV. For all you know, they could have turned over a new leaf by kicking out the exploiters.

Lanimal.6541:

The reason TC is better than FA or CD is not simply down to numbers. In our Oceanic we are able to consistently make sure that we do not lose more than one keep whilst being outmanned on both sides of the map. We make CD work really hard to take Bay as well (Most of the time) and CD can vouch for our SunnyHill defense. The same issue occurs during FA or CD’s off-peak hours and they are unable to hold any of the keeps (maybe except garrison sometimes in CDBL).

Why is this? Because we share knowledge consistently between our pugs and guilds.

- Lots of regular WvWvWers and established commanders give Siege placement lessons in BL and EB to the pugs.
- We map out portal-ing waypoints, smart portaling tactics onto JPGS and give to all known mesmers for our golems and for our flanks.
- We know how to keep our thieves scouting smartly and contesting waypoints smartly.
- We have in-depth defense guides on each tower and keep written up and shared between the common guilds.
- We consistently urge people to not run solo and always party up as soon as they join BL, so in case we need a team to keep north supply camps flipped (during defense), or we need a team to flank into vale and destroy their trebs, or we need a balista team to flank and take out their siege -> we dont have to ask people to party up and do it.
- We don’t do silly guild claiming of keeps and key towers and we make sure the guilds that claim it can activate multiple buffs around the clock.
- We understand micro-strategy MUCH better than you guys. In defense mode we don’t panic, we know how to use the repel timer to portal bomb you guys (timed well to respawn), we understand how to counter Golem rushes (Mortars and Balistas) and focus on that than our gate defense, we understand how to consistently adapt to superior number and superior siege during our oceanic time (look at Sunnyhill).
- Most commanders know each other and regular WvWvW veterans so information is consistently passed and our response jumping from BL to BL is extremely quick. We will abandon Inner SM Siege if it means keeping out borderland green.

And I think the biggest difference between FA and TC is that we understand prioritization of targets on defense and offense better than you guys. I don’t know how many times I see your commanders consistently moving from Lake to Briar or Briar to Lake and it makes me lol knowing you just made our defense easier.

There are many many other reasons that can be listed but these should be enough.

Assuming all that is consistent and true, FA uses the same methods, and having played on Desolation in EU, and 2 other US servers I can say that almost all servers employ the same practices. On FA there are really only about 3 guilds of note in WVW, on a good night we can fill a Borderland and a half, I have seen TC with far greater representation than that. It’s nice to utilize those tactics, but it’s irrelevant at the same time as you will see when you hit t2 and realize you lack sufficient night coverage, as we have experienced so often against TC on FA.

Last week I recall a bay siege at around 12AM MST, where all of FA could only muster about 15 defenders and a wall of 50+ TC head-banged the keep to death. It’s telling how often your large groups don’t even bother with offensive siege, this is a sign of grossly superior numbers, and all things being equal with strategy, grossly superior numbers will always win in this game.

DivineBeing.2086:

phaneo.4597:

Guess it’s something else regarding some guild transferring over. Saw the other post after my first one. If we get guilds that exploit, I’m leaving WvWvW (not that my crappy 3hr playtime means much to server anyways, but I always held pride in fighting for a server well known for mature players) until things are set right. I’d rather lose in T3, rather than exploit my way to victory in T2. We want respectable guilds (which we have), not the one’s that are hated or feared (from that other thread).

Honestly, if this is true than you were bound to leave sometime anyway. There are bad apples out there and some are bound to show up on your door step. If you leave the server because of these bad apples than honestly you are letting them win and you will be running for the rest of your life.

Speaking only for myself, it’s not running, it’s taking control of my own experience. It’s not about the bad apples themselves, it’s about the level of impact that they can have. I don’t want to win that way; it’s icky. And if the behavior becomes rampant, it makes the environment toxic. That’s not something I’m inclined to put up with. Not in a game.

The bad apples need to be kept in check and rendered impotent. There’s not a lot we, as players, can do about that. That’s ANet’s job. The exploits need to be fixed. I don’t care about bad apples, as long as they can’t really do anything to affect the larger picture. Right now that’s not the case, and it seems like the situation is rapidly getting out of hand. If it gets much worse, I’ll back out and do something else until ANet clamps down on it.

I dunno if this is where Phaneo is coming from, but it’s how I read his post, and I largely concur with it.

Here Titan War leader of [LORD] CD guild.

I almost never post on the forum lately but…
Last hour on our BL some TC zerg went inside our Garison from the water gate way but…
They didn’t break outter gate, in fact we had some people reporting that they portaled all forces inside with one golem while two stayed outter gate raming it while golem taking down inner gate water way. How is that possible: Simple as a mesmer double jumping outer water gate way on the cliff to reach inner keep. So Anet please Remove cliffs along Garison is simple fix as that. There is a portion just behind outter garison water gate way walls that can be exploit to jump into keep without taking out outter gate. Plus the gate upgrade at garison semms to bug often and morevover the inner gate at garison south is never benefiting of the gate upgrade and stays always a simple gate.

Play smart, play fair : avoid exploiting tricks please people. Thx

Karykarywook.2481:

Please for the love of kittens (yes, I actually typed “kittens”), do not judge a server on hackers you’ve encountered. We did a break out event in TC BL, and about 10 minutes after taking Bluebriar, we had multiple people report that a CD player hacked his way into Bluebriar and was unkillable. I, in no way, blame CD for something like that. I told these players to report the player, and that was that.

I don’t judge the entire server, please reread my paragraph. In fact I made it a point that FA has been great for the most part with an exception of one guild. And I’ve also noted that ruins my enjoyment of the match as a whole.

And we all know there are bad apples on every server. But lets try to police our own. Make the known hackers NOT welcome. And as commanders, refuse to defend ill-gotten positions.

Wal.4267:

Lanimal.6541:

The reason TC is better than FA or CD is not simply down to numbers. In our Oceanic we are able to consistently make sure that we do not lose more than one keep whilst being outmanned on both sides of the map. We make CD work really hard to take Bay as well (Most of the time) and CD can vouch for our SunnyHill defense. The same issue occurs during FA or CD’s off-peak hours and they are unable to hold any of the keeps (maybe except garrison sometimes in CDBL).

Why is this? Because we share knowledge consistently between our pugs and guilds.

- Lots of regular WvWvWers and established commanders give Siege placement lessons in BL and EB to the pugs.
- We map out portal-ing waypoints, smart portaling tactics onto JPGS and give to all known mesmers for our golems and for our flanks.
- We know how to keep our thieves scouting smartly and contesting waypoints smartly.
- We have in-depth defense guides on each tower and keep written up and shared between the common guilds.
- We consistently urge people to not run solo and always party up as soon as they join BL, so in case we need a team to keep north supply camps flipped (during defense), or we need a team to flank into vale and destroy their trebs, or we need a balista team to flank and take out their siege -> we dont have to ask people to party up and do it.
- We don’t do silly guild claiming of keeps and key towers and we make sure the guilds that claim it can activate multiple buffs around the clock.
- We understand micro-strategy MUCH better than you guys. In defense mode we don’t panic, we know how to use the repel timer to portal bomb you guys (timed well to respawn), we understand how to counter Golem rushes (Mortars and Balistas) and focus on that than our gate defense, we understand how to consistently adapt to superior number and superior siege during our oceanic time (look at Sunnyhill).
- Most commanders know each other and regular WvWvW veterans so information is consistently passed and our response jumping from BL to BL is extremely quick. We will abandon Inner SM Siege if it means keeping out borderland green.

And I think the biggest difference between FA and TC is that we understand prioritization of targets on defense and offense better than you guys. I don’t know how many times I see your commanders consistently moving from Lake to Briar or Briar to Lake and it makes me lol knowing you just made our defense easier.

There are many many other reasons that can be listed but these should be enough.

Assuming all that is consistent and true, FA uses the same methods, and having played on Desolation in EU, and 2 other US servers I can say that almost all servers employ the same practices. On FA there are really only about 3 guilds of note in WVW, on a good night we can fill a Borderland and a half, I have seen TC with far greater representation than that. It’s nice to utilize those tactics, but it’s irrelevant at the same time as you will see when you hit t2 and realize you lack sufficient night coverage, as we have experienced so often against TC on FA.

Last week I recall a bay siege at around 12AM MST, where all of FA could only muster about 15 defenders and a wall of 50+ TC head-banged the keep to death. It’s telling how often your large groups don’t even bother with offensive siege, this is a sign of grossly superior numbers, and all things being equal with strategy, grossly superior numbers will always win in this game.

This is completely true. Many many of the servers share the same tactics. He’s speaking through unbelievable arrogance as though those tactics are unique to TC alone. I don’t want to start a flame war but come on, TC. You have to realize you have a tremendous advantage. Do you think FA just runs around like headless chickens not communicating or prioritizing defense? You’re being ignorant.

You don’t need to respond to me preaching about how what I’m saying must be convenient for FA with how the scores turn out, I don’t need to hear it. I’ve seen the same thing posted several times already. You seem really proud of your score, but until you hit t2 with a similar score you have no leg in this.

Andy.9137:

. Do you think FA just runs around like headless chickens not communicating or prioritizing defense? You’re being ignorant.

I see this comment far, far too much on these forums. Somehow TC has some type of special powers that can read all team and map chat, squad chat, party chat, guild chat, and at the same time, are on all ventrilo (etc) servers.

Pretty amazing.

The truth is – there are some great FA commanders that can do some great things and give great instructions. You just have to know which ones to follow

Karykarywook.2481:

I see this comment far, far too much on these forums. Somehow TC has some type of special powers that can read all team and map chat, squad chat, party chat, guild chat, and at the same time, are on all ventrilo (etc) servers.

Pretty amazing.

The truth is – there are some great FA commanders that can do some great things and give great instructions. You just have to know which ones to follow

How is that any different from FA saying that TC doesn’t know anything about strategy and tactics and just faceroll their way to victory from sheer numbers? Pot, meet kettle. It’s going to be great when IoJ drops to T3 next week and we get to see the same stupid arguments hashed out against them as they inevitably dominate the tier, despite the fact that they’ve proven their worth in T1/T2 for far longer than FA has even been in T3.

rhyein.6172:

Karykarywook.2481:

I see this comment far, far too much on these forums. Somehow TC has some type of special powers that can read all team and map chat, squad chat, party chat, guild chat, and at the same time, are on all ventrilo (etc) servers.

Pretty amazing.

The truth is – there are some great FA commanders that can do some great things and give great instructions. You just have to know which ones to follow

How is that any different from FA saying that TC doesn’t know anything about strategy and tactics and just faceroll their way to victory from sheer numbers? Pot, meet kettle. It’s going to be great when IoJ drops to T3 next week and we get to see the same stupid arguments hashed out against them as they inevitably dominate the tier, despite the fact that they’ve proven their worth in T1/T2 for far longer than FA has even been in T3.

It depends if IoJ can rival TC as the most successful victims in WvW. If not, it should be an enjoyable change.

I see no reason to assume TC is less skilled than CD/FA.

Assuming they are equally skilled, yes, they are winning because they have more people. That’s pretty much the only reason anyone wins the lower brackets.

When FA rolled people in tier 4, it was because we had more people, not because we were more skilled.

TC is rolling people in tier 3, not because they are more skilled, but because they have more people.

The skill is much of a muchness across all these servers. Everyone has good commanders who coordinate and react quickly and help train newbies, execute sound tactical battle plans while sticking to a good larger strategic goal, etc. This game just isn’t that hard.

Saying TC is winning only because of their population is not the same thing as saying they would be losing if the populations were equal.

All else being equal, the largest population server wins. TC has by far the biggest population for tier 3, and as a result of that, is winning.

If they had the same population as CD/FA it would no doubt be a good tough fight. The only reason TC is winning so handily is because it has more people: that’s not the same thing as saying if it had equal #’s of people it would be losing.

TC have shown themselves to be capable opponents and despite the strengths of FA/CD servers, I imagine they could hold their own on an equal numbers footing. I don’t think they’d just roll over and die.

Actually I would think that in tier 2 you’d have people exploiting your home defense system. It happened once last week when we got our little wrecking ball into your tower and kept so many of you busy at the bay that you only had two towers in EB. Claims of that alliance overshadowed what was really going on there.

I’d definitely agree that CD is pitiful about holding on to our points during our off hours, and the NA players are pretty bad at that when they’re not even very outnumbered.

SO
I’d like to know a little more about how TC actually trains their pugs. I’ve been making gradual efforts of that nature for a good while now but it’s very disheartening as most either think they already know everything or are not interested in learning (‘somebody else will know how to do that.’)

I learned trebuchet placement very shortly before they removed the orbs so there just hasn’t been the same need to know how to defend positions, and all the fewer opportunities to pick up the precise placements for key siege- even if I could get a whole group paying attention I still wouldn’t ever get it across to that many players.

As for mapping things out do you just put those on any old image upload site and luck out that they don’t get leaked to your enemies?

Look everyone, the only thing the score has anything to do with is population, shocking I know. Given that stop worrying about the score, go out and have fun with your guild. The only measure of skill you can possibly have is how well you do on campaign nights when you are rolling with your crew. Its those great battles that I play for, not what the board says at the end of the week. IF we could get GvG then we might have a metric to compare skill, but when there is no population equalization we are talking about numbers pure and simple, trying to make it look like anything else just makes you look foolish

Vorpal.4683:

I see no reason to assume TC is less skilled than CD/FA.

Assuming they are equally skilled, yes, they are winning because they have more people. That’s pretty much the only reason anyone wins the lower brackets.

When FA rolled people in tier 4, it was because we had more people, not because we were more skilled.

TC is rolling people in tier 3, not because they are more skilled, but because they have more people.

The skill is much of a muchness across all these servers. Everyone has good commanders who coordinate and react quickly and help train newbies, execute sound tactical battle plans while sticking to a good larger strategic goal, etc. This game just isn’t that hard.

Saying TC is winning only because of their population is not the same thing as saying they would be losing if the populations were equal.

All else being equal, the largest population server wins. TC has by far the biggest population for tier 3, and as a result of that, is winning.

If they had the same population as CD/FA it would no doubt be a good tough fight. The only reason TC is winning so handily is because it has more people: that’s not the same thing as saying if it had equal #’s of people it would be losing.

TC have shown themselves to be capable opponents and despite the strengths of FA/CD servers, I imagine they could hold their own on an equal numbers footing. I don’t think they’d just roll over and die.

I’m not saying TC is less skilled than FA or CD at all. Don’t get me wrong. What you’re saying is exactly right and I would love a good fight on equal footing. I just wish TC would stop attributing their score to skill alone when it simply makes them seem foolish and arrogant.

Titan.3472:

Here Titan War leader of [LORD] CD guild.

I almost never post on the forum lately but…
Last hour on our BL some TC zerg went inside our Garison from the water gate way but…
They didn’t break outter gate, in fact we had some people reporting that they portaled all forces inside with one golem while two stayed outter gate raming it while golem taking down inner gate water way. How is that possible: Simple as a mesmer double jumping outer water gate way on the cliff to reach inner keep. So Anet please Remove cliffs along Garison is simple fix as that. There is a portion just behind outter garison water gate way walls that can be exploit to jump into keep without taking out outter gate. Plus the gate upgrade at garison semms to bug often and morevover the inner gate at garison south is never benefiting of the gate upgrade and stays always a simple gate.

Play smart, play fair : avoid exploiting tricks please people. Thx

Please don’t accuse if you haven’t seen it with your own eyes.

I was the commander who led the zerg at the time(1-2hours ago in CDBL) and let me tell you how things went down. We dropped 2 rams for watergate, I told everyone to resupply at Stargrove and come back, they did. We rammed the water gate down, went up the stairs, killed cannons and oil, and built a (guild) golem beside your inner gate + other rams. We got inside but you guys wiped us. Then we left the BL for the new event/dungeon.

So unless you guys finished the upgrade for your gates or if that happened after I left for the event, please do tell us which guilds these people are from so we can figure out what actually went down.

rhyein.6172:

How is that any different from FA saying that TC doesn’t know anything about strategy and tactics and just faceroll their way to victory from sheer numbers? Pot, meet kettle. [/quote]

Even though I have not said this personally, I’ll address it anyhow.

First, if anyone claims that having a higher WvW population isn’t any type of advantage, is being disingenuous, pure and simple. 5 highly skilled players up against 20 ok-skilled players, the 20 will win every time (not saying the 5 is FA and the 20 is TC, just an example).

Its kinda hard to make a direct comparison.

edit- I fail at quoting

Hekatombaion.4320:

SO
I’d like to know a little more about how TC actually trains their pugs. I’ve been making gradual efforts of that nature for a good while now but it’s very disheartening as most either think they already know everything or are not interested in learning (‘somebody else will know how to do that.’)

It’s more a matter of watching the people who frequent whatever map you choose to play, and spotting the ‘talent’, so to speak. You’re quite correct in saying that many people are unwilling to learn, or believe they already know best, or simply want to run with the zerg and kill folks. However, there will be a percentage of people who are new to WvW, start off running with the zerg (as we all do) but are willing to branch out into other key areas as they begin to learn the meta of WvW.

I talk with a tonne of people via whispers. I doubt anyone realises the amount of whispers I receive and send every time I’m in EB. When I spot someone that performs tasks beyond simply following an icon around, who will repair walls, rebuild siege, defend supply camps, do what I say needs to be done over team chat, I take note of that person and make sure I talk to them, get to know them, and make sure they know I appreciate their contribution.

I will show the people who care to learn ‘where’ to place smart defensive siege, how to defend any tower, how to counter trebs and so on. On the rare occasions that I’m leading people around with my own icon on, I will point out why things fail (you didn’t push through the choke, you didn’t wipe siege, you didn’t keep destroying the mortar, you were too obvious about where the countertreb was going to be placed, or simply bad luck – we ran into an unexpected force, ‘I’ messed up by placing something poorly, and so on).

Again, not everyone is going to listen. For each night where you get 20 awesome people who will run repairs to SM’s walls from various supply camps for an hour without complaint, you’ll get nights where 20 people stand uselessly on said walls while they’re being trebbed, and do nothing about it.

It’s finding the folks that ‘want’ to learn, and helping them help ‘you’ (and I wouldn’t be nearly as effective in my role as a defensive strategist if not for those people I can trust and rely on to do exactly what I do) that yields the reward for any WvW leader. Anyone can purchase an icon. Very few realise you can do a lot of good without it, and that it’s simply another tool in your arsenal, when so required.

Another thing I do, when I feel it’s necessary, is point out to those icons that ‘are’ leading zergs ‘where’ those zergs should be. Too often, you’ll find zergs are led in completely the wrong directions. They go north when they should go east, they hit blue when they should hit red, they focus SM when they should be ignoring it. Not everyone understands strategy, and sometimes you need to point out the correct course of action to ensure it is undertaken. Sometimes I’ll do so via team chat. Sometimes I’ll whisper the icon in question. Ideally, this helps your icons improve their game as well. It’s not just the casual masses that need educating, but those who lead them.

We all have things to learn, and ways to improve.

~Nyari Cil, Queen of EB

Hekatombaion.4320:

I’d definitely agree that CD is pitiful about holding on to our points during our off hours

Couldn’t this probably be said of most or all servers?

From my (admittedly limited) experience, it’s not just lack of numbers but lack of cohesion. “3rd shift” crews seem to be largely composed of a hodge-podge of single players and small parties. They all may mean well enough, but getting them on the same page can be akin to herding cats

Over a longer term, though, they can become familiar enough with one another that they morph into a sort of pseudo-guild. Consequently, they get better at holding ground on off-hours. They’ll still lose it in the end, but it becomes harder and takes longer to roll over them. I believe I’ve been seeing this dynamic evolve on my own server (’cuz the different population peaks have really pressed the 3rd shift crew, forcing it to get more organized).

But I’d think that ‘pitiful’ is probably the default for off-hours?

I’d like to know a little more about how TC actually trains their pugs. I’ve been making gradual efforts of that nature for a good while now but it’s very disheartening as most either think they already know everything or are not interested in learning (‘somebody else will know how to do that.’)

I’m pretty much a free agent in WvW. I don’t belong to a huge guild and I don’t really know anyone yet. I think this is where a server’s general social environment can have a real impact. TC’s social environment is usually—usually--rather upbeat and inclusive, and that has gone a long way towards deepening my own investment and participation in WvW.

For example, I’ve never felt hesitant in saying, “I’m a noob, tell me what to do,” and I don’t get shamed for doing so. When I ask about things, there’s often someone who’s more than happy to instruct me, and without disparaging commentary.

On the other hand, there are attitudes and behaviors that can be off-putting and disheartening. Especially when they’re coming from commanders. From what I’ve seen, one snotty and insulting commander can really damage the morale on a map, even if their tactics are sound. It can lead to people jumping ship and, subsequently, the map being lost. Fortunately, on TC, I’ve only seen this happen once or twice so far.

So, I guess what I’m suggesting to you is, it helps to cultivate a certain social atmosphere. You’re not likely to find the type of people you’re looking for, ‘cuz their nature tends to thwart that very effort. But if you create the right environment, they’ll come to you, willing and eager to be involved. Instead of seeking them out, you have to lure them in.

Once you do that, they’ll find most of their own answers. ‘Cuz, again, that’s how players like that tend to operate in general.

Vagrant.1094:

It’s more a matter of watching the people who frequent whatever map you choose to play, and spotting the ‘talent’, so to speak. You’re quite correct in saying that many people are unwilling to learn, or believe they already know best, or simply want to run with the zerg and kill folks. However, there will be a percentage of people who are new to WvW, start off running with the zerg (as we all do) but are willing to branch out into other key areas as they begin to learn the meta of WvW.

I talk with a tonne of people via whispers. I doubt anyone realises the amount of whispers I receive and send every time I’m in EB. When I spot someone that performs tasks beyond simply following an icon around, who will repair walls, rebuild siege, defend supply camps, do what I say needs to be done over team chat, I take note of that person and make sure I talk to them, get to know them, and make sure they know I appreciate their contribution.

This speaks directly to the points I made above as a perfect example.

Andy.9137:

I’m not saying TC is less skilled than FA or CD at all. Don’t get me wrong. What you’re saying is exactly right and I would love a good fight on equal footing. I just wish TC would stop attributing their score to skill alone when it simply makes them seem foolish and arrogant.

Except nobody has ever said that (that I’m aware of), and that’s the core of the issue. Any claim to skill made by TC players in the past weeks have been (almost always) directly in response to claims, usually made by FA, that TC has no skill and wins -only- on numbers. The word only is very important in the English language. Ask anyone from TC that frequents this thread and they’ll be happy to admit that having a higher WvW population helps a ton in “winning” the tier. What they won’t admit to, and take offense to, is the claim that without those numbers, they would lose because they are otherwise skill-less. Maybe you and Vorpal haven’t made claims, but others on your server have, including representatives and even leaders from the major WvW guilds there. They you respond to the TC response to those claims, and throw out the “I never said that” argument.

That’s how 3/4 of the conversations on this thread plays out. It’s tiring.

Looking forward to seeing TC In t2 next week, will be nice to get some fresh blood (to go out and kill of course hehe). Have fun and good luck.

On the short hand, I seem to have missed some earth shattering news. (Can it be called earth shattering if it’s not clear what the news is?). Apparently some supposed controversy about a keep that couldn’t be held?

Andy.9137:

I just wish TC would stop attributing their score to skill alone when it simply makes them seem foolish and arrogant.

I know I certainly don’t attribute it to skill alone. It’s multiple factors. Skill is a part, as is the coordination of our roaming parties. Much of that is buffered by numbers and generally matched by player enthusiasm. That is, superior numbers made up of people who are eager to fight.

This does not mean that other CD or FA don’t have enthusiastic player or competent commanders. They do. Particularly the ones that are tenacious enough to continue fighting as hard as they do. In the end, I would attribute multiple things to all the servers.

It’s generally wrong for someone to say “We did it all because we’re better and more skilled!” or “You’re winning only because of numbers and nothing else!”. Bear in mind, I’m not accusing you, necessarily, of the latter statement.

There’s too many variables. Even if some are more readily noticeable.

pot.6805:

Looking forward to seeing TC In t2 next week, will be nice to get some fresh blood (to go out and kill of course hehe). Have fun and good luck.

We end up there, it’ll be fun. Might get smashed to hell. Entirely possible. Some would tell us likely. Still will be fun. Learning experiences as well. See? This is the type of posting I enjoy. A little prodding but a friendly jab. Far too many people get deep into the mire.

WeaponXI.4076:

Firstly thanks to all the CD players for giving us some work! Thanks FA too, I finally went in the Jump Puzzle with FA people without having to fight them… I made a video of some solo fights last week! Check it

#/watch?feature=plcp&v=8YfU_qBEQB4

Thanks!

Edited with correct link

Vorpal.4683:

I see no reason to assume TC is less skilled than CD/FA.

Assuming they are equally skilled, yes, they are winning because they have more people. That’s pretty much the only reason anyone wins the lower brackets.

When FA rolled people in tier 4, it was because we had more people, not because we were more skilled.

TC is rolling people in tier 3, not because they are more skilled, but because they have more people.

The skill is much of a muchness across all these servers. Everyone has good commanders who coordinate and react quickly and help train newbies, execute sound tactical battle plans while sticking to a good larger strategic goal, etc. This game just isn’t that hard.

Saying TC is winning only because of their population is not the same thing as saying they would be losing if the populations were equal.

All else being equal, the largest population server wins. TC has by far the biggest population for tier 3, and as a result of that, is winning.

If they had the same population as CD/FA it would no doubt be a good tough fight. The only reason TC is winning so handily is because it has more people: that’s not the same thing as saying if it had equal #’s of people it would be losing.

TC have shown themselves to be capable opponents and despite the strengths of FA/CD servers, I imagine they could hold their own on an equal numbers footing. I don’t think they’d just roll over and die.

Despite everything else that everyone has posted, thank you for this breath of rationally fresh air.

Vagrant.1094:

-optimism-

I’m fairly convinced that anybody on CD with a commander tag that doesn’t think they know what they are doing just leaves it off all of the time.

I know that thing makes your chat super busy but I’ve never once got a response from whispering our commanders (excluding those in my guild/in teamspeak with me.) The hodge podge players are fairly good about whispers but I wish I could figure out who dropped this or that piece of siege so I could just offer placement tips to them.

Hydrophidian.4319:

Couldn’t this probably be said of most or all servers?

I meant it in relation to other servers. Even when our population is still fairly large we lose points really fast. As soon as the offense stops on CD we’ve got almost no ability to defend places. I’d have to guess that our players who show up no matter what have no idea how to man a mortar, and rarely think to use the burning oil.

rhyein.6172:

Andy.9137:

I’m not saying TC is less skilled than FA or CD at all. Don’t get me wrong. What you’re saying is exactly right and I would love a good fight on equal footing. I just wish TC would stop attributing their score to skill alone when it simply makes them seem foolish and arrogant.

Except nobody has ever said that (that I’m aware of),

I’ve been no-life-ing the forums pretty hard for awhile and I can throw some support on that. It’s almost always “it’s not just our numbers, it’s how we use them” as a response to people approaching “mindless zerg” name calling. Most of us seem too caught up in rivalry to catch the important qualifiers, but I would like to remind CD that after a few weeks in tier four we did start to just win with numbers. We only ever had large leads thanks to our oceanic coverage but as the same match wore on the other servers saw some serious loss of players. Being fair weather over the course of a month isn’t quite the same as over the course of a week but it harmed them to the point that our better players were neither needed for sweeping victory nor likely to see much action even if they did show up.

TC, if you move up into t2, I wish you luck from an IOJ player. I certainly hope you guys have your gameplans practiced well and bring your best, because SOR and BG are gonna hit you with numbers out the ying yang and exploit gaps in your coverage times. Be prepared for both teams to come after you since you “may” be the easier team to get points from. IOJ has been fighting an uphill battle for the better part of a month and it’s been brutal close fighting on all fronts, even when severely outnumbered(on the US EST timezone at least) T3, I look forward to some mayhem!

Hekatombaion.4320:

Vagrant.1094:

-optimism-

I’m fairly convinced that anybody on CD with a commander tag that doesn’t think they know what they are doing just leaves it off all of the time.

I know that thing makes your chat super busy but I’ve never once got a response from whispering our commanders (excluding those in my guild/in teamspeak with me.) The hodge podge players are fairly good about whispers but I wish I could figure out who dropped this or that piece of siege so I could just offer placement tips to them.

That’s actually really unfortunate, as at least on TC our commanders are fairly responsive. Even if they don’t reply to you to state that they’re taking your thoughts into consideration, on more than one occasion I’ve seen a commander turn the zerg around to help out where I’ve needed them at home after sending them a whisper.

For example I logged into WvW the other morning and our night crew hadn’t repaired Klovan yet. After pointing this out to our commander, he turned everyone around and we played defense for a while. That highlights a few problems with our server, sure, but it also highlights our commanders’ ability and willingness to coordinate and listen.

And for the record Nyari Cil does a lot to mentor people on our server and help us along. Almost every time I’ve been online at the same time as her she’s offered me some sort of advice or example, and I feel it’s helped me improve greatly in a short amount of time. If you’re looking to train randoms and pugs on your own servers, I recommend following her advice.

Hekatombaion.4320:

I know that thing makes your chat super busy but I’ve never once got a response from whispering our commanders (excluding those in my guild/in teamspeak with me.)

I’ve not had a commander not respond to me yet, and I’ve whispered a handful so far. Usually it’s been to coordinate something specific, but it’s also just been social exchanges.

Could this be a telling difference in general social dynamics?

Even when our population is still fairly large we lose points really fast. As soon as the offense stops on CD we’ve got almost no ability to defend places. I’d have to guess that our players who show up no matter what have no idea how to man a mortar, and rarely think to use the burning oil.

This again makes me curious about the social environment on your server. How prevalent is ongoing, public dialogue about what’s happening on the map? Do you see a lot of people asking what they can do or where they can go? ’Cuz that appears to be a fairly common occurrence on TCBL.

I learn what to do (and where to do it) usually because I ask. But I ask because the overall tone of the chat usually encourages it, and the prominent guilds don’t shut people out.

Hekatombaion.4320:

Vagrant.1094:

-optimism-

I’m fairly convinced that anybody on CD with a commander tag that doesn’t think they know what they are doing just leaves it off all of the time.

I know that thing makes your chat super busy but I’ve never once got a response from whispering our commanders (excluding those in my guild/in teamspeak with me.) The hodge podge players are fairly good about whispers but I wish I could figure out who dropped this or that piece of siege so I could just offer placement tips to them.

In my experience, 90% of people with icons run around with that icon on 100% of the time. That doesn’t necessarily mean they know what they’re doing. They may have the basics down, and they can certainly improve, should they be willing to take on board advice from a recognised source.

Part of that is building up your server presence. My name would be a virtual unknown in the Borderlands, but if you play frequently in the Eternal Battlegrounds on TC, in primetime or oceanic, then you’d know who I am, and what I do. This leads to people listening to me (not always!) when I choose to speak up, or whisper.

Something else you could try is on reset night, placing most defensive siege yourself, or via a few people you can trust. 90% of defensive tower and keep siege that goes up in EB on Friday nights is placed by myself and a few others who know exactly where to place it for maximum effect. The result of this is that other people tend to see it in those places week in, week out and replicate that.

It also helps to reiterate where siege is placed in chat. Too often people won’t think to look anywhere beyond ‘in this very obvious place on the front wall’. Which is, in fact, the ‘worst’ place to drop defensive siege. ^^

~Nyari Cil

Vagrant.1094:

Something else you could try is on reset night, placing most defensive siege yourself, or via a few people you can trust. 90% of defensive tower and keep siege that goes up in EB on Friday nights is placed by myself and a few others who know exactly where to place it for maximum effect. The result of this is that other people tend to see it in those places week in, week out and replicate that.

As I seem to be the very type of player Hekatombaion is looking for, I’ll echo this as well. If I consistently see siege in particular places, I’ll note that. If I use siege in particular places and find it to be super effective, I’ll remember that too.

So when I’m running about, and I don’t see defensive siege in those places, I’m much more likely to plop some down.

Altie.4571:

PiNK… I hate you… In an passive way. There’s soo many of you!

PINK is huge because a lot of people join it for the organization in WvW. There are people in my guild that PvE under the KF tag, but WvW under the PINK tag. We do not have a server wide voice chat that I know of, so many people go through PINK for that. I think it is a great way to get the WvW better organized.

I’m not sure alot of people on other servers realize that if you don’t have the outmanned buff…you aren’t outmanned. And I’m sorry, but fighting valiantly to defend blue briar then giving up and logging out just after losing Bay in frustration isn’t our fault. If only 15 of you are in bay defending than I have 2 questions for you.
1) Where is everyone else on your borderland and 2) why aren’t all the groups you have in every other borderland helping you?

Everyone knows that TC, at this stage in the matchup, has more people, but pretending that we somehow double and triple your numbers on your own borderland is just stupidity. The mechanics simply don’t allow it. Either its even, near even, or outmanned and the second it is outmanned we win pretty quickly and leave.

By my own experience, FA is the only server in 6 weeks of matchups that actually loses people as you get closer to their Garrison. Most servers start stacking up to defend but you guys generally pick up the outmanned buff before we even get to the gate.

Your most organized guilds, and by this I mean GODS, ULTD, PRO, BT, seem to just prefer to fight on other borderlands, whereas our most organized guilds defend home first, then everywhere else second. This is exactly what turned the tide for us in the first matchup when things we’re pretty equal, and its the thing that everyone who jumps onto the TC ship notices the second they get here.

So yes, we outnumber you. Yes, we outpresence you. We would win against you at this point even if you changed your mind sets. But not once in all the matchups week after week have you guys ever blamed yourselves. Maybe everyone that actually gives a crap already left?

Sunspots.9861:

I’m not sure alot of people on other servers realize that if you don’t have the outmanned buff…you aren’t outmanned. And I’m sorry, but fighting valiantly to defend blue briar then giving up and logging out just after losing Bay in frustration isn’t our fault. If only 15 of you are in bay defending than I have 2 questions for you.
1) Where is everyone else on your borderland and 2) why aren’t all the groups you have in every other borderland helping you?

Everyone knows that TC, at this stage in the matchup, has more people, but pretending that we somehow double and triple your numbers on your own borderland is just stupidity. The mechanics simply don’t allow it. Either its even, near even, or outmanned and the second it is outmanned we win pretty quickly and leave.

By my own experience, FA is the only server in 6 weeks of matchups that actually loses people as you get closer to their Garrison. Most servers start stacking up to defend but you guys generally pick up the outmanned buff before we even get to the gate.

Your most organized guilds, and by this I mean GODS, ULTD, PRO, BT, seem to just prefer to fight on other borderlands, whereas our most organized guilds defend home first, then everywhere else second. This is exactly what turned the tide for us in the first matchup when things we’re pretty equal, and its the thing that everyone who jumps onto the TC ship notices the second they get here.

So yes, we outnumber you. Yes, we outpresence you. We would win against you at this point even if you changed your mind sets. But not once in all the matchups week after week have you guys ever blamed yourselves. Maybe everyone that actually gives a crap already left?

To everybody above giving TC the benefit of the doubt, just read this post. “We outnumber you, but we still play better than you and will win anyway”

Sunspots.9861:

I’m not sure alot of people on other servers realize that if you don’t have the outmanned buff…you aren’t outmanned.

Technically incorrect. If you die, you often do not have the outmanned buff, even if everyone else in the zone does. Further define outmanned? I would assume most people do not just use the term for when they have the buff, rather any time there are more of one side vs the other. The outmanned buff doesnt kick in for a certain amount over (4x?).

The discussion in my opinion is a circular one. Vorpal above had some great points and I think the rest of it is largely perception. I will see more tactics in a single night from CD then I will all week from TC, does this mean TC is incapable or simply not doing anything fancy because it is not required when you can roll out enough folks to just brute force it?

Hopefully the next tier will let TC use all of the tools available, and dust the cobwebs off the ones held in storage. Personally I look forward to the change, I found TC to be a boring opponent for my style of play, which is small group/solo. Admittedly the game is not designed for this style of play, but typically it provides a lot of enjoyment regardless.

I think we will do very well during NA primetime in T2. Whether or not we have an Oceanic Presence to score well enough to stay is unknown and actualy kind of unimportant to me since thats when I’m sleeping and I don’t care about the big score.

As a guild leader of The Shadow Legion (TSL), we are very much looking forward to the opportunity to fight in Tier 2. We are always looking for a bigger challenge, and thus far we haven’t seen much of a challenge in Tier 3. People can complain about numbers all they want, but I’ve seen some pretty bad tactics used by both FA and CD that at one time TC would attempt to use until we learned the hard way.

The last time we faced a Tier 2 server that came down, I can say for certain that many in my guild learned some very important lessons. Sure, our server as a whole got our butts handed to us… but it was a learning experience that dramatically improved our server. Coordination, Siege placement, target priority, map priority, ninja attacks, false attacks to make opposition think you’re pushing one place but instead really going after somewhere else…. all these things TC quickly had to get up to speed on.

I expect that the same thing is going to happen if TC moves up to Tier 2. There is a difference ferocity that comes into play as you move up in Tiers. The other servers are more harsh and more and more they will take advantage of both their strengths and your weaknesses.

Should we make it up to Tier 2, whether or not we can stay in Tier 2 will likely be another story. But one thing I can say for sure is that the Tier 2 server that is coming down will likely be that much more fierce than TC is, which hopefully both CD and FA will learn from, and if TC gets knocked back down to Tier 3, you will likely see us bring more and more tactics that we’ve learned through hard knocks in Tier 2, where will will undoubtedly be pitted against a ‘new’ version of CD and FA…. likely very similar to what TC is today.

This is the reality that each server is striving to become better. There are those that are just that much further ahead, but all of us are striving to improve.

Liked the point about commanders getting their group to repair gates and walls. Seeing many new commanders lately – they left whatever they defended without repairing walls or gates. I spent a good half hour trying to repair things by myself while asking for help. The only time people came by to repair was when it was along the way.

Tip to commanders, no pug is going to stay and repair the gate when you’re off capping towers and camps.

I think the most important thing to remember is that it’s just a game and all in good fun. We have a long history with FA, and even though we’re not going to be matched up after this week (TC to T2 and FA to T4) you guys have been really fun to practice against. It’s not a big deal who wins or loses, I think everyone just wants to have fun, challenging match ups. Let’s try to get through this last week without any drama, we all play this game for the same reason: to have fun.

CD you have been really awesome too, keep an eye out for Yaks, those guys are tenacious.

^FA and YB aren’t switching next week lol. http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA

I just want to say that on Sunday afternoon I managed to protect this lone doylak as it was being assaulted by 3 TC players long enough that they managed to Agro all the lvl 82 guards and the doylak ran safely inside and the suspects died at the scene of the crime.

Transistor.8746:

I think the most important thing to remember is that it’s just a game and all in good fun. We have a long history with FA, and even though we’re not going to be matched up after this week (TC to T2 and FA to T4) you guys have been really fun to practice against. It’s not a big deal who wins or loses, I think everyone just wants to have fun, challenging match ups. Let’s try to get through this last week without any drama, we all play this game for the same reason: to have fun.

CD you have been really awesome too, keep an eye out for Yaks, those guys are tenacious.

Except: At the moment FA isn’t moving anywhere. And according to the website, Yak’s have dropped points (even when beating the snot out of T4 mind you.)

I wont say we do things better or are more skilled, but we are friendly and helpfull, and though i am not a commander, i think they lead by example, they help with running supplies, they also help with the less glorius tasks, and that shows new players the importance of the rear duties…

Also i think we are fairly polite in pointing out tips, about placements, and how to report things… saying “big zerg help”… dont give much info, while “inc crag 10-15+” does or 10+Fa heading titan from crag" reporting and giving information helps commanders loads when they need to manuver a big mob…

Also little things to do not take supplies from a tower or keep thats low, but actually run or jump to TCG for supplies, many sieges is attrition and winning time… i remember awhile back 20-30cds oceanic hit bay, we are low population these ours and were maybe ten, if ewen that and he said omg we are going to die, and i said, maybe but its not about that, every minute we stall, every half hour we can delay, more and more of us will wake up, and two hours after that we were still fighting desperatly to keep bay, and by that time we almost had parity, and thanks CD you given us some amacing bay battles !…

Im not saying we do are the only ones that do this, but iwe found that most people in TC are openminded, have a good relaxed attitude but want to learn, guess thats why we are a merry mob

Miriel !

DivineBeing.2086:

phaneo.4597:

Guess it’s something else regarding some guild transferring over. Saw the other post after my first one. If we get guilds that exploit, I’m leaving WvWvW (not that my crappy 3hr playtime means much to server anyways, but I always held pride in fighting for a server well known for mature players) until things are set right. I’d rather lose in T3, rather than exploit my way to victory in T2. We want respectable guilds (which we have), not the one’s that are hated or feared (from that other thread).

Honestly, if this is true than you were bound to leave sometime anyway. There are bad apples out there and some are bound to show up on your door step. If you leave the server because of these bad apples than honestly you are letting them win and you will be running for the rest of your life. You can’t escape the bad apples. You can only report them and hope that Anet handles the situation appropriately.

Also, what is with this prejudgement with the guild DEV. For all you know, they could have turned over a new leaf by kicking out the exploiters.

Well, I didn’t say I’m leaving server, but only W3. There are other things to do in the game you know :P. Anyway the other day I’ve seen some distasteful things from a few people on my own server that really disappointed me. Someone already brought it to the notice here, regarding Hills Keep on CDBL and I won’t go further into it except it was disappointing. So I’m keeping myself away from W3 for this week. I’m off to do other things right now.

And yeah, as mentioned in my post, there are lots of ’if’s and ’but’s. So IF we find ourselves being continuously legitimately blamed for obvious exploits I don’t mind PvE’ing until things get to normal. So its just a IF … THEN situation I mentioned. No pre-judgement on the guild except what I learned from those who faced them in the past and based on the guild’s own post about “feared and hated” guild and “destruction of servers”, not sure how I’m supposed to take it.

And what’s with this attachment anyway? I’ll have my reservations about the guild for sure, and no judgements passed there. I had them when a few from GODS transferred over, and its gonna take time to fully know them as I haven’t worked with them much. And being perfect? Sure, I’m not perfect and nobody is. And I take pride in being a noob that doesn’t know how to take advantage of some in-game glitch to exploit and learning to play. If there’s someone who’s perfect, pls show me I shall bow to them.

Zynthetic.2954:

Urrid.4593:

Elite Slasher’s stories not being satire?

…I don’t think that possibility crossed my mind.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Sorry to read about your luck TC.

What happened?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Pink-Monkey-s-DEVS-now-on-TC

^ That? No idea otherwise. Regardless, TC doesn’t put up with hackers and exploiters on our server, and we’ll make sure they either get banned or transfer off in disgrace.

If it is just the other servers missing a mesmer or a random bug, then we’ve got no problems. Wouldn’t be the first time someones called me a hacker because someone built a wall back up on top of me and trapped me inside it.

Yes.

Sucks seeing them pop inside through a solid door.

That thread is gone by the way.

@Elite Slasher – Your a commander, act like one. WTF is with that book of a post you wrote.

@Lanimal (for why TC is better) – Overall you are right. FA has become basically a wasteland of tactics and zerging. We act more like a pack of dogs then a army in general. That being said I have seen TC do some very stupid very horrible things (on a large scale), so your not that amazing yet. Winning so many weeks in a row certianly helps TC in moral/numbers and attracting talent.

From what I am seeing out of FA I have to say the server seems to be dieing. More and more people are no longer showing up, our tactics basically drop a level every week. 50% of the people seem to be interested in open world 5v5 or similar pvp matches and no objectives whatsoever, the other 50% are just looking to zerg something, anything. We almost never pick up our downed players. We have gotten even worse about defending/upgrading. Or when we do defend, we tend to defend the worst defensible keeps/towers. We take objectives for no strategic purpose whatsoever, and never stick around to hold them. We don’t seem to know what a treb is. We have basically no communication whatsoever and our major guilds are so insular they almost cant work with other people. We even have started auto attacking gates on large scale again. We need to go back to basics and start over again because we are not going in the right direction FA.

kanikani.2430:

@Elite Slasher – Your a commander, act like one. WTF is with that book of a post you wrote.

@Lanimal (for why TC is better) – Overall you are right. FA has become basically a wasteland of tactics and zerging. We act more like a pack of dogs then a army in general. That being said I have seen TC do some very stupid very horrible things (on a large scale), so your not that amazing yet. Winning so many weeks in a row certianly helps TC in moral/numbers and attracting talent.

From what I am seeing out of FA I have to say the server seems to be dieing. More and more people are no longer showing up, our tactics basically drop a level every week. 50% of the people seem to be interested in open world 5v5 or similar pvp matches and no objectives whatsoever, the other 50% are just looking to zerg something, anything. We almost never pick up our downed players. We have gotten even worse about defending/upgrading. Or when we do defend, we tend to defend the worst defensible keeps/towers. We take objectives for no strategic purpose whatsoever, and never stick around to hold them. We don’t seem to know what a treb is. We have basically no communication whatsoever and our major guilds are so insular they almost cant work with other people. We even have started auto attacking gates on large scale again. We need to go back to basics and start over again because we are not going in the right direction FA.

I completely disagree with almost everything you said.

kanikani.2430:

@Elite Slasher – Your a commander, act like one. WTF is with that book of a post you wrote.

@Lanimal (for why TC is better) – Overall you are right. FA has become basically a wasteland of tactics and zerging. We act more like a pack of dogs then a army in general. That being said I have seen TC do some very stupid very horrible things (on a large scale), so your not that amazing yet. Winning so many weeks in a row certianly helps TC in moral/numbers and attracting talent.

From what I am seeing out of FA I have to say the server seems to be dieing. More and more people are no longer showing up, our tactics basically drop a level every week. 50% of the people seem to be interested in open world 5v5 or similar pvp matches and no objectives whatsoever, the other 50% are just looking to zerg something, anything. We almost never pick up our downed players. We have gotten even worse about defending/upgrading. Or when we do defend, we tend to defend the worst defensible keeps/towers. We take objectives for no strategic purpose whatsoever, and never stick around to hold them. We don’t seem to know what a treb is. We have basically no communication whatsoever and our major guilds are so insular they almost cant work with other people. We even have started auto attacking gates on large scale again. We need to go back to basics and start over again because we are not going in the right direction FA.

That doesn’t describe what I’ve seen at all in the times I’ve been playing. In fact across multiple guilds there has been a lot more coordination between people than 2-3 weeks ago.

Do you even play on FA? I have yet to see anyone auto attack a gate down without siege. Will people attack gates if nothing else needs to be done while siege does it’s work? Yep.

You shouldn’t say players on FA play the way you say, I don’t see it. In fact you should probably hop into WvW, things have changed since a month or two ago.