Guild Wars 2

Would anyone care to shed some light on this. Seems like a serious issue that may be worth quitting the game over, but i figured the people in the forums would have a wealth of knowledge on this subject before i made the decision to quit or not.

They’re kinda broken in small fights, in large fights though they’re all but useless.

Especially the ones that aim for the cheese backstab strat, where they just stealth, backstab, spam hearsteeker, then stealth again.

Main thing is that you don’t really get the satisfaction of killing them when you win. When a thief is about to die versus me, he just uses CnD, shadow refuge, and I never see him again.

Well I never been a pvper so Wvw is just there for me for karma and badges. Anet forces people to participate in Wvw whethere they want or not if you want legendary weapons. So people will be upset over classes that come out of nowhere and own multiple people without no recourse.

Draymos.5489:

Well I never been a pvper so Wvw is just there for me for karma and badges. Anet forces people to participate in Wvw whethere they want or not if you want legendary weapons. So people will be upset over classes that come out of nowhere and own multiple people without no recourse.

Sounds like you bought the wrong game bro

Thieves aren’t op at all. It just a low skill level bar combined with culling/rendering failure by anet

I always kill thieves.. on my thief the majority of them suck

Dr Acula.3496:

Would anyone care to shed some light on this. Seems like a serious issue that may be worth quitting the game over, but i figured the people in the forums would have a wealth of knowledge on this subject before i made the decision to quit or not.

Instead of making the 43rd post on this subject in the last 48 hours. Why didn’t you just read all of the others. There IS a wealth of information in them.

And a lot of Bull Kitten too.

But here is the short answer: Culling makes them(us, I have an 80 thief full exotics as well) OP atm, it will get “fixed” at some point.

Kolly.9872:

I always kill thieves.. on my thief the majority of them suck

Troof.

There are a metric kitten ton of bad Thieves. That is why I am gob smacked at why so many people are crying OP.

Most thieves that I see are Pow/Pre Backstab thieves and I absolutely own them with my tanky thief with P/D. I love it when they stealth. I wait a couple secs, stealth. Then stack my bleeds from stealth after they pop out. Rinse repeat till the scrub Thief is dead, never hitting me with his burst at all.

Also, if you are going solo and crying about 1v1’s in WvW. Then you are bad and making worse decisions. Sorry, has to be said. WvW is about small and large groups working together dynamically to take the map. Not Rambo running around and killing the Sheriff’s Department in Hope, Washington.

Protip: going in WvW solo, you;re going to have a bad time. (especially against thieves)

The reason they are crying is:

1. Culling

2. Even a bad player can be successful with a thief

Try using the Search function in the upper right hand corner before creating yet another I don’t know how to counter the Thief so they are OP and I’m quitting thread. There are already hundreds of them, read up.

covenn.7165:

The reason they are crying is:

1. Culling

2. Even a bad player can be successful with a thief

This is literally the entire conversation. Everything else is just what happens when a word is spoken about “x” on the internet.

I think it’s about the fact that it’s so kitten hard to finish off a thief. Other classes, if you are defeated, you die. With the thief it’s, if you are defeated, you just retreat, heal up, and come back and try to snipe that person again. It’s a class where you can be beaten over and over and over again, and never die. You just get to retry the fight over and over until you win. At least in WvW.

The culling bug (late rendering after they should appear after attacking) is certainly helping the class as well.

It’s really annoying to other classes. If they charge into a pair of guys, they better win, or they will die. Having this super mobile class that can not be caught, and can run down any other class just ruins the open world pvp for me.

I have a pistol/dagger thief based around mobility/escapism. I rarely die. I’m bored of that class and playing a few others now, and oh my gosh am I realizing how OP the thief is now. The class is hurting the enjoyment of many people for WvW. No joke.

With my other classes I’m playing I’m learning how to fight different classes, and making use of all my powers. With my thief all I used is regular 1 attack, and Cloak and Dagger, number 5 with my P/D spec. I use that in every fight, vs every class, 1v1, or 1v10. It’s a god kitten joke.

Corgibuttz.5849:

I think it’s about the fact that it’s so kitten hard to finish off a thief. Other classes, if you are defeated, you die. With the thief it’s, if you are defeated, you just retreat, heal up, and come back and try to snipe that person again. It’s a class where you can be beaten over and over and over again, and never die. You just get to retry the fight over and over until you win. At least in WvW.

The culling bug (late rendering after they should appear after attacking) is certainly helping the class as well.

It’s really annoying to other classes. If they charge into a pair of guys, they better win, or they will die. Having this super mobile class that can not be caught, and can run down any other class just ruins the open world pvp for me.

I have a pistol/dagger thief based around mobility/escapism. I rarely die. I’m bored of that class and playing a few others now, and oh my gosh am I realizing how OP the thief is now. The class is hurting the enjoyment of many people for WvW. No joke.

With my other classes I’m playing I’m learning how to fight different classes, and making use of all my powers. With my thief all I used is regular 1 attack, and Cloak and Dagger, number 5 with my P/D spec. I use that in every fight, vs every class, 1v1, or 1v10. It’s a god kitten joke.

Yet the Ele D/D does the same thing you describe —→ They bail out and come right back with full health and you fail to mention them once, why not? Is it only the stealth?

Tynan.6279:

Corgibuttz.5849:

I think it’s about the fact that it’s so kitten hard to finish off a thief. Other classes, if you are defeated, you die. With the thief it’s, if you are defeated, you just retreat, heal up, and come back and try to snipe that person again. It’s a class where you can be beaten over and over and over again, and never die. You just get to retry the fight over and over until you win. At least in WvW.

The culling bug (late rendering after they should appear after attacking) is certainly helping the class as well.

It’s really annoying to other classes. If they charge into a pair of guys, they better win, or they will die. Having this super mobile class that can not be caught, and can run down any other class just ruins the open world pvp for me.

I have a pistol/dagger thief based around mobility/escapism. I rarely die. I’m bored of that class and playing a few others now, and oh my gosh am I realizing how OP the thief is now. The class is hurting the enjoyment of many people for WvW. No joke.

With my other classes I’m playing I’m learning how to fight different classes, and making use of all my powers. With my thief all I used is regular 1 attack, and Cloak and Dagger, number 5 with my P/D spec. I use that in every fight, vs every class, 1v1, or 1v10. It’s a god kitten joke.

Yet the Ele D/D does the same thing you describe —-> They bail out and come right back with full health and you fail to mention them once, why not? Is it only the stealth?

A d/d ele is easy to stop from running away. They are also easy to avoid in regards to damage spikes. Not only that, the ones that are hard to kill do garbage damage. They are way more versatile than thieves though overall. That is the difference

True… Although most of the time I see them getting away if they spec’d right.

I am not proud to say that a thieve has never ever killed me in wvw on a 1v1.I have fought all of the classes in 1v1 hundreds of times. I play as a guardian and thieves are no problem for me.I use hammer and if i crit with my number 2 skill i can get them down to half health, then immobalise, knockback and add a few auto attacks and they are dead. If i get them down to half hp they either stealth and run away or are simply dead.

Tynan.6279:

True… Although most of the time I see them getting away if they spec’d right.

Flash, Mist, and RTL is a lot of tools for sure.

Usually I let them RTL into me and dodge the updraft. Most don’t know what to do at that point. Heh

How about you stop making posts about thief’s and just maybe read the one out of five or so that is already on the front page of the forum. Everything that has been said in this thread has been said thousands of times already. Please spare us.

SmokeyNYY.7841:

How about you stop making posts about thief’s and just maybe read the one out of five or so that is already on the front page of the forum. Everything that has been said in this thread has been said thousands of times already. Please spare us.

How about you read the above posts? This was already said…

covenn.7165:

The reason they are crying is:

1. Culling

2. Even a bad player can be successful with a thief

Pretty much. And the number 2 would be less so if number 1 would be fixed.

I have read the myriad of similar/same posts. Im just mostly confused as to why people still reply to them more than anything else. I have 0 intention of quitting this game because of thieves lol. And also Merry Christmas !!!!!

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

They’re kinda broken in small fights, in large fights though they’re all but useless.

Especially the ones that aim for the cheese backstab strat, where they just stealth, backstab, spam hearsteeker, then stealth again.

Thieves are great in large fights, just not with the same (and very popular) specs that are used for small fights.

No weakness.
Massive damage.
Invisibility at will.
Grossly overpwered

You want to quit the game because of one class you THINK is OP? It isn’t by the way, kitten easy to deal with Thieves unless you are unscaled, but then it doesn’t matter what class you fight so long as they have a tiny bit of skill.

Even when I play glass cannon ele, which is very rare, I don’t get burst down by thieves. All praise the holy V key.

People would do well to spend time learning the mechanics of all classes before posting about balance.

thieves are easy to handle.
no one should be killed withing the first 5 seconds of a thief encounter.

All you got to do is dodge, dodge, stun, stun, immobilize/daze. and if you are not built that way then good for you since you picked a build that actually does something for your server in WvW.

Thieves that are built for the sole purpose of 1v1s in WvW is pointless. Sure a thief can kill a dolyak fast, but so can any other profession.

The only reason why you see people cry about thieves is because people use thieves to do 1v1 ganks. I’m sure any other profession has the same potential gankability.

Thieves aren’t OP. They people that play them are just good. I’ve seen this happen in WAY to many games where a bunch of people will actually know how to use something, they kitten the noobs, then the developers nerf it because they don’t like people who are good with something…

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

thieves are easy to handle.
no one should be killed withing the first 5 seconds of a thief encounter.

All you got to do is dodge, dodge, stun, stun, immobilize/daze. and if you are not built that way then good for you since you picked a build that actually does something for your server in WvW.

Thieves that are built for the sole purpose of 1v1s in WvW is pointless. Sure a thief can kill a dolyak fast, but so can any other profession.

The only reason why you see people cry about thieves is because people use thieves to do 1v1 ganks. I’m sure any other profession has the same potential gankability.

You would be correct if culling/rendering weren’t allowing thieves to nearly kill people before appearing on screen… Sometimes not rendering at all.

Ripred.4605:

Thieves aren’t OP. They people that play them are just good. I’ve seen this happen in WAY to many games where a bunch of people will actually know how to use something, they kitten the noobs, then the developers nerf it because they don’t like people who are good with something…

Best one i have heard so far Yeah, that must be it, all the best players play thiefs. And the ones who have other prof as alts become bad players as soon as they log in other than their thieves.

Ripred.4605:

Thieves aren’t OP. They people that play them are just good. I’ve seen this happen in WAY to many games where a bunch of people will actually know how to use something, they kitten the noobs, then the developers nerf it because they don’t like people who are good with something…

Don’t kid yourself and keep it real. My thief is by far the easiest class for me in the game to play 1v1. The skill bar is extremely low to be successful. The actual thieves out there that are good, well we can do some amazing things.

Tynan.6279:

SmokeyNYY.7841:

How about you stop making posts about thief’s and just maybe read the one out of five or so that is already on the front page of the forum. Everything that has been said in this thread has been said thousands of times already. Please spare us.

How about you read the above posts? This was already said…

It seems you need to repeat this many many times for anyone to even understand that everything they say in these threads has been said thousands of times.

leave thieves as they are. nerf stealth into the ground or disable its offensive capacity completely. all offensive abilities need counters, and stealth has none.

Mindvibe.4630:

leave thieves as they are. nerf stealth into the ground or disable its offensive capacity completely. all offensive abilities need counters, and stealth has none.

You can’t “leave thieves as they are” while also “nerfing stealth into the ground”. Major stealth changes would require major thief changes to rebalance the profession so it is less reliant on stealth as an offensive mechanic.

And whether there is “a counter to stealth” is pretty subjective. It all depends on what you consider a counter.

What’s the issue with double dagger backstab thiefs. If you use a pistol / dagger that’s far more easy to play. The thiefs who stick up for p/d are the worst type of players using the thief class. I’m looking for more duels wildbill is a joke now that he can’t alt+f4.

Real thiefs switch weapons depending on the kill.

Mindtrick.5190:

What’s the issue with double dagger backstab thiefs. If you use a pistol / dagger that’s far more easy to play. The thiefs who stick up for p/d are the worst type of players using the thief class. I’m looking for more duels wildbill is a joke now that he can’t alt+f4.

Real thiefs switch weapons depending on the kill.

Hahahahaha… Let’s see P/D = Steal/CnD – Sneak Attack vs D/D = Steal/CnD – Backstab hmm huge difference in skill required there, I love people’s logic in justifying there own means.

I think that once a thief engages a target, there should be a cooldown before they can re-enter stealth…

Avigrus.2871:

I think that once a thief engages a target, there should be a cooldown before they can re-enter stealth…

There is. The revealed debuff prevents restealthing for 3 seconds after stealth is broken due to landing an attack.

Avigrus.2871:

I think that once a thief engages a target, there should be a cooldown before they can re-enter stealth…

There is although it is way to short, it should be more similar to other popular MMO’s not needing mentioned. Make the stealth cool down after engaging longer and then give the Thiefs a 60 sec cooldown vanish utility skill again similar to the other MMO’s.

Tulisin.6945:

Mindvibe.4630:

leave thieves as they are. nerf stealth into the ground or disable its offensive capacity completely. all offensive abilities need counters, and stealth has none.

You can’t “leave thieves as they are” while also “nerfing stealth into the ground”. Major stealth changes would require major thief changes to rebalance the profession so it is less reliant on stealth as an offensive mechanic.

And whether there is “a counter to stealth” is pretty subjective. It all depends on what you consider a counter.

i consider a counter to be any ability that gives you an advantage against the initial ability. there are 0 abilities when used that give you an advantage over a stealthed player. count them. zero. defensive abilities dont all need counters. offensive abilities do, because if they dont have one, the forums look like they currently do.

what possible rebalancing does a thief need aside from stealth nerfs? their damage is more than capable. they have multiple specs that are no more or less viable than other classes non-flavor-of-the-month builds. as ive said the problem is not thieves at all. the class is completely fine. sure heartseeker topend damage vs cost vs utility is a little silly, but nothing that really needs adjusted drastically. lets face it, any thief that is afraid of a stealth nerf is very likely terrible. and any thief that isnt is just smiling saying god that was great while it lasted.

or the most trollworthy solution for wvw: make thieves the primary render targets for just a week. for them the game will be working as intended, so i cant imagine any thieves would actually complain about the rendering system then right? RIGHT?

honestly its only after actually playing thief that i realized how much of a joke it really was. i went into wvw fully untraited. 700 stat points, and matching class perks short shouldnt feel viable. it felt viable.

Tulisin.6945:

Avigrus.2871:

I think that once a thief engages a target, there should be a cooldown before they can re-enter stealth…

There is. The revealed debuff prevents restealthing for 3 seconds after stealth is broken due to landing an attack.

That’s fine but it should be after being completely out of combat instead. I miss the days of playing a stealther that actually had to deal with the consequences of poor decisions.

Tynan.6279:

Avigrus.2871:

I think that once a thief engages a target, there should be a cooldown before they can re-enter stealth…

There is although it is way to short, it should be more similar to other popular MMO’s not needing mentioned. Make the stealth cool down after engaging longer and then give the Thiefs a 60 sec cooldown vanish utility skill again similar to the other MMO’s.

Wow, that is way too long.

Combat in this game is much much shorter than 60 secs.

Tanky builds can kill each other faster than that.

I would say 5-7 secs. IF they were to extend the reveal bug, but that serious hurts our DPS and survivability.

If they would do something like that, they would have to buff us more with defense. More base health. Maybe add something to other abilities that will allow us to tank a bit better or they would have to make our burst even stronger.

Any way you look at it, if they nerf something. Then they have to buff something in order to keep some balance and then people will be complaining about that.

Mindvibe.4630:

Tulisin.6945:

Mindvibe.4630:

leave thieves as they are. nerf stealth into the ground or disable its offensive capacity completely. all offensive abilities need counters, and stealth has none.

You can’t “leave thieves as they are” while also “nerfing stealth into the ground”. Major stealth changes would require major thief changes to rebalance the profession so it is less reliant on stealth as an offensive mechanic.

And whether there is “a counter to stealth” is pretty subjective. It all depends on what you consider a counter.

i consider a counter to be any ability that gives you an advantage against the initial ability. there are 0 abilities when used that give you an advantage over a stealthed player.

So you define a counter as something that turns an opponent’s advantage into a disadvantage. Under this definition most conditions are un-counterable unless you’re one of the few professions able to turn them into boons or redirect them.

That aside, to understand how to counter stealth under your definition you have to understand that stealth has innate advantages and disadvantages. Stealth gives the advantage of traited benefits and being untargetable, and the disadvantage of lowering combat uptime if you want to maintain that advantage.

The counter to stealth, then, is to minimize the innate benefits of stealth by tracking/anticipating and attacking the stealthed player, and maximize the innate detriments of stealth by not allowing the thief to get “free” combat downtime and actually have to make the choice to remain in stealth for the benefits.

In short, if you stay aggressive and continue to attack your opponent while they’re stealthed, you’ve just turned stealth from an advantage to them to a disadvantage to them. They can’t attack you while stealthed or risk losing the benefits, but you can attack all you want. They’re essentially dazing themselves for 2-3 seconds at a time.

People believe stealth is so powerful because they often let the stealthed player simply get “free” time with no applied pressure to do whatever they want. Against an intelligent player stealth becomes a choice and potential liability where you trade the ability to attack for some benefits, a major tradeoff.

Think you need to read his post again Archonis. You missed something there, heh

covenn.7165:

Tulisin.6945:

Avigrus.2871:

I think that once a thief engages a target, there should be a cooldown before they can re-enter stealth…

There is. The revealed debuff prevents restealthing for 3 seconds after stealth is broken due to landing an attack.

That’s fine but it should be after being completely out of combat instead. I miss the days of playing a stealther that actually had to deal with the consequences of poor decisions.

Those stealthers also got to pick and choose their fights as most MMOs have perma stealth and also were able to defend themselves without the need of stealth after combat began. Thieves are paper thin in this game, if you nerf our stealth as only a combat opener. We aren’t going to be doing very well in terms of survivability. Unless you get us more Endurance and more chances to dodge.

covenn.7165:

Tulisin.6945:

Avigrus.2871:

I think that once a thief engages a target, there should be a cooldown before they can re-enter stealth…

There is. The revealed debuff prevents restealthing for 3 seconds after stealth is broken due to landing an attack.

That’s fine but it should be after being completely out of combat instead. I miss the days of playing a stealther that actually had to deal with the consequences of poor decisions.

Not against this idea in principle, but it would mean increasing the damage on most thief abilities to make up for being unable to use stealth offensively for stealth attacks mid-combat as well as reworking the entire combat stealth traitline … which I don’t believe is something you really want.

It is easy to throw out quick-fix solutions without considering the consequences they’d have on the profession as a whole.

Tulisin, with the way stealth is implemented in this game, I have to be drunk to not get away when I want to. Please try to keep it real

covenn.7165:

Think you need to read his post again Archonis. You missed something there, heh

Read it again, not sure what I am missing. He is suggesting that stealth goes on a CD for 60 secs and then he can vanish out of combat. That is way too long.

covenn.7165:

Tulisin, with the way stealth is implemented in this game, I have to be drunk to not get away when I want to. Please try to keep it real

Being able to escape combat at will has much more to do with thief mobility than it does with stealth, though. I can catch and kill thieves all day long if they’re slower than I am, regardless of stealth. Conversely, I can’t kill any profession that has vastly better mobility than I do, regardless of whether they have stealth or not. People think that stealth is allowing the thief to escape because the thief disappears and reappears far away, but it isn’t the stealth that is actually facilitating the survivability.

Mobility being the sum combination of movement speed, transportation abilities, as well as the application and removal of movement-affecting boons and conditions.

Tulisin.6945:

covenn.7165:

Tulisin.6945:

Avigrus.2871:

I think that once a thief engages a target, there should be a cooldown before they can re-enter stealth…

There is. The revealed debuff prevents restealthing for 3 seconds after stealth is broken due to landing an attack.

That’s fine but it should be after being completely out of combat instead. I miss the days of playing a stealther that actually had to deal with the consequences of poor decisions.

Not against this idea in principle, but it would mean increasing the damage on most thief abilities to make up for being unable to use stealth offensively for stealth attacks mid-combat, which I don’t believe is something you really want.

It is easy to throw out quick-fix solutions without considering the consequences they’d have on the profession as a whole.

I disagree and it’s not a quick fix solution. I have been playing stealthers for over a decade across numerous mmo’s. game developers started making it really care bear and that has caused problems over the years. If I make a bad decision, I should pay for it like every other class. However, if I play well and open from stealth I should have a huge advantage over my prey. As it stands right now, I can kill most people thanks to the culling/rendering without doing much more than slamming my head against my keyboard.

It’s boring to the point I find myself almost never playing my thief.

In all fairness though, due to the zergy nature of this game… Get out of jail free cards are needed especially when groupability is sacrificed for soloing. However, it has to be reasonable so it isn’t too much.

covenn.7165:

I disagree and it’s not a quick fix solution. I have been playing stealthers for over a decade across numerous mmo’s. game developers started making it really care bear and that has caused problems over the years. If I make a bad decision, I should pay for it like every other class. However, if I play well and open from stealth I should have a huge advantage over my prey.

That is a nice sentiment, but GW2 stealth doesn’t function like it does in most MMOs. It is specifically built to be used in combat repeatedly. Most thief builds rely on dipping into stealth, if only for a second, to set up from-stealth attacks. If those attacks become only possible once per fight, they’d need to be massively retuned, along with the rest of the profession. Same with on-stealth traits, regen-on-stealth, condition removal on stealth, and many more traits would need to be changed to the new once-per-fight paradigm. Not to mention what such a change would to do PvE.

So, again, there’s nothing wrong with limiting stealth to something you open the fight with, but GW2 isn’t currently built that way, and it’d require a lot more work than a simple change.