Guild Wars 2

The scary thing is the current thief problem isn’t even good players for the most part. The class is far and away not being used to it’s potential in WvW and is still seen as OP.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

thieves are easy to handle.
no one should be killed withing the first 5 seconds of a thief encounter.

All you got to do is dodge, dodge, stun, stun, immobilize/daze. and if you are not built that way then good for you since you picked a build that actually does something for your server in WvW.

Thieves that are built for the sole purpose of 1v1s in WvW is pointless. Sure a thief can kill a dolyak fast, but so can any other profession.

The only reason why you see people cry about thieves is because people use thieves to do 1v1 ganks. I’m sure any other profession has the same potential gankability.

For instance this quote. People think way too small scale, too short sighted, and too “ermagerd he kilted me”. One of the truly powerful things a thief can contribute to WvW is that a really small number of thieves can SHUT DOWN supplies in a borderlands.

12 Thieves working on the supply camps/yaks of a map pretty much limits a server down to 1-2 possible supply camps even if they guard them. If they bring enough to guard more than that then the opposing zerg will roll over the now much smaller force.

But people don’t use thieves like that often. Because they are too busy LOLLERing all over the lastest victim they killed in under 5 seconds from stealth and possibly before they rendered. Or they are too buy laying down significant condition damage without breaking stealth at all. Or the more team play ones are too busy rezzing dead people in the middle of enemies while stealthed.

No, the potential of thieves is actually severely underutilized in several ways and they are STILL a problem. I think that says enough.

I find it funny that people complain wow is a broken game, but compare most mmos to it, and critique them when they are different.

Ps I believe thieves are fine. And I agree with ^ on the small scale thing. In a 30v30 match in wvw the better complete team will win, not the one with more thieves.

I don’t what everyone expected. Someone at Anet obviously loves that class type.

The original Guild Wars is widely known as one of the most unbalanced mmos of all time. Assassins had a skill that literally made them immortal. Every farming group everywhere was assassins. The shadow form imbalance lasted until after they started making GW2.

Ralathar.7236:

For instance this quote. People think way too small scale, too short sighted, and too “ermagerd he kilted me”. One of the truly powerful things a thief can contribute to WvW is that a really small number of thieves can SHUT DOWN supplies in a borderlands.

….

Has it occurred to you that there’s a lot of down time in between flipping camps and yakslapping? Even more so now that the supervisor buff is fixed and flipping a buffed camp is virtually impossible without massive lifestealing.

The “problem” with the roamer type thief is that shadow refuge is the easiest get of jail free card in the game, aside from the combination of skills D/D eles can use. This allows you to enter virtually any 1v1 or 1v2 with little fear of actually dying, provided you also have roll or shadowstep to stunbreak and clear out of a burst. So when I’m out yakslapping, camp flipping, or scouting, I will take on any player and if they would have beat me, 98% of the time I’m still on my merry way doing whatever I was doing.

This also enables thieves (and D/D eles) to play very aggressively and for some people at least, actually learn a lot more about PvP and improve their game. With other classes it’s just not worth it to spend 3 minutes walking to the other side of the map and then have a trip back to the WP if anything goes wrong. Shockingly, deep in enemy territory, other players have snares making it impossible to leave combat, and 1v1s have this strange tendency to become 1v10’s in a hurry. That’s why my fully leveled and geared for w3 guardian and engi never leave the garage unfortunately.

Emissary Vex.5690:

I don’t what everyone expected. Someone at Anet obviously loves that class type.

The original Guild Wars is widely known as one of the most unbalanced mmos of all time. Assassins had a skill that literally made them immortal. Every farming group everywhere was assassins. The shadow form imbalance lasted until after they started making GW2.

well their implementation of stealth in this game is the most laughably overpowered stealth I’ve seen in 20 years of mmos. Most thieves know it too.

The fact they can stack stealth to the point where they can “reset” infinite amount of times is ridiculous. Black powder + hs, rinse and repeat, throw in the occasional hide in shadows or cloak and dagger or blinding powder and you will never ever die.

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

Aberrant.6749:

sahamk.5672:

It is a matter of skill. Noob thief or just a thief is not a problem. But good thief… He could kill you, your teammate and a guy who was just running with you. I met such a thief. It was totally impossible to kill him. I dont know how good were those two guys, but they were killed and me so… The same thing with mesmers. Mesmer is a free kill, but when mesmer’s skill reaches some point, he becomes unkillable.
Anet should change some mechanics so noobs wouldn’t be a free frag, and skilled guys wouldn’t be ubstopable…

To me this shows that skill matters. This is a good thing. If anything I wish they would make skill matter MORE than numbers in WvW (stupid mass res’s from downed state).

Btw… I’ve also had people whisper me on my guard and on my eng and tell me that the class is OP… and yet I’m able to smash most other players who are playing the supposedly OP class. It’s a skill thing, not a class thing. Thankfully A-net has said that they don’t balance based on the lower/mid levels of skill.

Note I’m not trying to say I’m a godlike player with any class… just that I’m better than most randoms in WvW. It also took some time/practice/thinking on how I can counter other classes.

jportell.2197:

A thread a few days back asked why so many bunker builds are popular in wvw… the one answer is thieves… if one class can make every person in wvw want to try bunkering there is a big problem

I find that bunker builds are nearly useless and are just a crutch for bad players. I can mitigate/avoid/deal more damage in a balanced set up Vs. some one who just refuses to learn to react to attacks with something other than passive hp/toughness. That doesn’t therefore mean thief (or any other class) is OP… it does show how many people are unwilling to practice and learn though…

Bunker build useless? They are the only counter to a thief because the slow rendering and the haste of a thief make it impossible to render on your screen before a balanced build is dead… Can I go balanced? sure but I will die to a thief at some point instantly… I could also just go full zerk but I like surviving normal encounters too not just GC thieves.

Columba.9730:

well their implementation of stealth in this game is the most laughably overpowered stealth I’ve seen in 20 years of mmos. Most thieves know it too.

You clearly never played Perfect World International

Thieves are OP in WvW due to culling issues, once that is fixed they won’t be an issue.

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun. They didn’t have permastealth there. Stealth itself was much better balanced. Their other skills weren’t.

Heres a pretty OP thief roaming solo in WvW, notice how he doesnt die until the very end!

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom → C&D → Steal → Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

Ortho.4530:

Heres a pretty OP thief roaming solo in WvW, notice how he doesnt die until the very end!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqmqEpM9QO8

That is a hilarious video.

He makes so many mistakes, and yet still survives.

Backstabbing mesmer clones, missing backstabs repeatedly, backstabbing from the front, missing 3 CnDs in a row, getting caught with cc, running out of initiative, CnDing into revealed debuff…

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen. In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

I think the revealed debuff should be applied every time stealth timed out, no matter what the reason was. And if you damage an invisible enemy, you should get a notification that you hit something.
These two things simply make no sense and given the current rendering delay issues, it’s no wonder almost everybody not playing a thief hates them.

Then, after they fixed culling (and this actually removed the rendering delay!), they could decrease the revealed debuff duration. But a thief should be visible at least x seconds on any players screen, before getting invisible again.

zen.6091:

Ralathar.7236:

For instance this quote. People think way too small scale, too short sighted, and too “ermagerd he kilted me”. One of the truly powerful things a thief can contribute to WvW is that a really small number of thieves can SHUT DOWN supplies in a borderlands.

….

Has it occurred to you that there’s a lot of down time in between flipping camps and yakslapping? Even more so now that the supervisor buff is fixed and flipping a buffed camp is virtually impossible without massive lifestealing.

There is also alot of downtime in escorting Dolyaks, but it is another undeniably important thing that can turn the tide of a battleground. I have personally turned the momentum of an entire BL solo by running yaks on my warrior for 45 minutes straight before.

Yes, some of the more effective objective based things have downtime, may be more boring, are more expensive, and are not properly rewarded. But they can still win entire BL’s.

But it’s not like the thieves won’t be getting kills from the solo’s, duo’s and small groups looking to play with the camps and yaks.

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

Fix stealth first before dealing with other things, sure. I agree. Staying stealthed but losing it once you attack or take damage isn’t permastealth. Face it, Wow handled stealth better than gw2.

magicthighs.5372:

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

jportell.2197:

Bunker build useless? They are the only counter to a thief because the slow rendering and the haste of a thief make it impossible to render on your screen before a balanced build is dead… Can I go balanced? sure but I will die to a thief at some point instantly… I could also just go full zerk but I like surviving normal encounters too not just GC thieves.

It’s a passive defense. It’s boring. Often it doesn’t even work as you can’t kill what’s hitting you. All of my toons take a balanced approach. If you go more offensive than a bunker you’ll notice things like high vigor uptime kick in (depending on class). That means (with skill) you can avoid more damage than what a bunker can mitigate with just passive hp/toughness. On top of that you’re doing more damage than a bunker… so you kill things faster, and things still can’t kill you. Win-Win… presuming you have decent reaction time and skill (which you can get with practice). But some people can’t stay aware of their surroundings and are too sluggish and hit a stunbreaker when they see their character stop moving and then turn to stone I guess…

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

Culling is not stealth, stop pretending they’re the same thing. And C&D? From stealth? You’d get the revealed debuff. Other classes are subject to culling the same as thieves.

Seriously, stop talking nonsense.

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

Culling is not stealth, stop pretending they’re the same thing. And C&D? From stealth? You’d get the revealed debuff. Other classes are subject to culling the same as thieves.

Seriously, stop talking nonsense.

Not stealth, but thieves get the most advantage from it because they can bridge their stealth downtimes with culling to get permastealth. As many of us have proven, the revealed “debuff” actually doesn’t work in wvwvw.

Thieves have bragged about how they can spam c&d and remain stealthed. Stop talking nonsense.

Aberrant.6749:

jportell.2197:

Bunker build useless? They are the only counter to a thief because the slow rendering and the haste of a thief make it impossible to render on your screen before a balanced build is dead… Can I go balanced? sure but I will die to a thief at some point instantly… I could also just go full zerk but I like surviving normal encounters too not just GC thieves.

It’s a passive defense. It’s boring. Often it doesn’t even work as you can’t kill what’s hitting you. All of my toons take a balanced approach. If you go more offensive than a bunker you’ll notice things like high vigor uptime kick in (depending on class). That means (with skill) you can avoid more damage than what a bunker can mitigate with just passive hp/toughness. On top of that you’re doing more damage than a bunker… so you kill things faster, and things still can’t kill you. Win-Win… presuming you have decent reaction time and skill (which you can get with practice). But some people can’t stay aware of their surroundings and are too sluggish and hit a stunbreaker when they see their character stop moving and then turn to stone I guess…

Here your logic is severely flawed… Bunker builds are wars of boons and attrition and its all about the bunker managing what they have. And bunkers are still a full on counter to the GC thief because it gives us reaction time before we are dead. It still takes about 1-2 seconds for a thief to fully show on your screen after they break stealth hell even on my mes when I come out of stealth (because Im like oh sheet sheet sheet run!) I turn back and see them doing nothing thinking “Why aren’t they chasing me?” Then I’m like oh yeah they still cant see me. Take a bunker Mesmer for instance I still have almost 2.9k attack total and nearly 3k armor… My shatters grant me specific boons that lead to the enemy killing themselves while they fight me… The only way I don’t get a stomp in this build is if they run (in which case I still win) or they slap more conditions on than I can remove because even when specced conditions are the bane of a Mesmer. I still do tons of damage because people are too stupid to notice that I have full uptime on retal and so does everything I have out… So It is most def not passive defense in this case. And to think other wise is just silly.

Ralathar.7236:

The scary thing is the current thief problem isn’t even good players for the most part. The class is far and away not being used to it’s potential in WvW and is still seen as OP.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

thieves are easy to handle.
no one should be killed withing the first 5 seconds of a thief encounter.

All you got to do is dodge, dodge, stun, stun, immobilize/daze. and if you are not built that way then good for you since you picked a build that actually does something for your server in WvW.

Thieves that are built for the sole purpose of 1v1s in WvW is pointless. Sure a thief can kill a dolyak fast, but so can any other profession.

The only reason why you see people cry about thieves is because people use thieves to do 1v1 ganks. I’m sure any other profession has the same potential gankability.

For instance this quote. People think way too small scale, too short sighted, and too “ermagerd he kilted me”. One of the truly powerful things a thief can contribute to WvW is that a really small number of thieves can SHUT DOWN supplies in a borderlands.

12 Thieves working on the supply camps/yaks of a map pretty much limits a server down to 1-2 possible supply camps even if they guard them. If they bring enough to guard more than that then the opposing zerg will roll over the now much smaller force.

But people don’t use thieves like that often. Because they are too busy LOLLERing all over the lastest victim they killed in under 5 seconds from stealth and possibly before they rendered. Or they are too buy laying down significant condition damage without breaking stealth at all. Or the more team play ones are too busy rezzing dead people in the middle of enemies while stealthed.

No, the potential of thieves is actually severely underutilized in several ways and they are STILL a problem. I think that says enough.

What you are saying with supply is with any class I can take a scenario and say if I had 12 of X class it could do this better than any other class. If I had 12 eles they could totally make manning defending siege impossible thus rendering it ineffective. Thats basically what you said.

12 of all the same class would destroy alot of things and 12 thieves running together is dangerous for the thieves themselves, why because thats 12 chances to get revealed buff when you dont want to. You could be laying down shadow refuge to stomp someone but at the same time accidently revealing you partner who is actually try to cloak and dagger someone else.

I would steer clear of 12 thief group like the plague.

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

Culling is not stealth, stop pretending they’re the same thing. And C&D? From stealth? You’d get the revealed debuff. Other classes are subject to culling the same as thieves.

Seriously, stop talking nonsense.

Not stealth, but thieves get the most advantage from it because they can bridge their stealth downtimes with culling to get permastealth.

So you agree it’s not actually stealth, but you’re still calling it stealth? Why?

As many of us have proven, the revealed “debuff” actually doesn’t work in wvwvw.

Except you did no such thing, of course. For revealed to fail that would mean the thief can actually stealth during the debuff in WvW, which is still completely impossible.

Thieves have bragged about how they can spam c&d and remain stealthed. Stop talking nonsense.

You’re all over the board again. You, for some reason, brought up C&D, in this context:

magicthighs.5372:

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

To which you replied:

Columba.9730:

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

What you were apparently claiming there is that you can’t see the thief as soon as he does direct damage from stealth if he uses C&D, which is simply nonsense because they’d get the revealed debuff. Then you make up some malarkey about having proved the revealed debuff does not work in WvW, and thieves saying they can spam C&D to stay in stealth.

Oh, and before you mention it, you can’t possibly be referring to using C&D on walls here, since a) that was fixed last patch and b) I specifically said doing direct damage from stealth gives you the revealed debuff.

It would really help if you would stop posting all these blatant untruths. I really don’t care that you have a bee in your bonnet about thieves, but the amount of FUD you’re spreading is not acceptable.

[edit] fixed a typo

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

Culling is not stealth, stop pretending they’re the same thing. And C&D? From stealth? You’d get the revealed debuff. Other classes are subject to culling the same as thieves.

Seriously, stop talking nonsense.

Not stealth, but thieves get the most advantage from it because they can bridge their stealth downtimes with culling to get permastealth. As many of us have proven, the revealed “debuff” actually doesn’t work in wvwvw.

Thieves have bragged about how they can spam c&d and remain stealthed. Stop talking nonsense.

Still not a culling issue, I guarantee that even if you removed all culling I could chain CnD so I could have pseudo permastealth. All it takes is a nooby zerg and some good timing skills. L2P issue here. All you have to to is not get hit by CnD, I have taken out many p/d condition thieves simply by avoiding their CnD.

Oh and debuff does work, if It didn’t work then you’d be dying and they’d be stealthing the entire time. Debuff works because they are attacking you and cannot go back into stealth for awhile after the attacks. Many of the times my enemies were able to stay alive in a 1v3 was because of debuff and zerg rezzing.

One of my characters is a level 80 thief.

We tested it in a controlled environment on a mostly empty server. “Revealed” debuff does not work in WvW due to culling. Here were the results:

You stealth, backstab, get revealed debuff, still invisible to enemy due to culling. By the time you phase in because of culling, the revealed debuff goes away and you can C/D again. The enemy IF he’s lucky can spot you for probably 1/4 of a second and that’s only if you mess up your timing as a thief.

This is NOT in zergs or large groups. This is tested on an empty server with extremely high end computers and very fast internet connections.

Okay so there we have it a controlled study about the reveled debuff on thieves… Thank you sir.

EvilSardine.9635:

One of my characters is a level 80 thief.

We tested it in a controlled environment on a mostly empty server. “Revealed” debuff does not work in WvW due to culling.

Here were the results:

You stealth, backstab, get revealed debuff, still invisible to enemy due to culling. By the time you phase in because of culling, the revealed debuff goes away and you can C/D again. The enemy IF he’s lucky can spot you for probably 1/4 of a second and that’s only if you mess up your timing as a thief.

This is NOT in zergs or large groups. This is tested on an empty server with extremely high end computers and very fast internet connections.

How on earth does this mean the revealed debuff is not working in wvw? What you’re describing is culling (which, again, I only see in large battles, not small skirmishes) and has nothing to do with the revealed debuff. If it wouldn’t work that would mean you should be able to stealth while debuffed.

Not sure what game you are playing but no, thieves do not become visible in WvW when they first make an attack.

In Spvp yes, I can see said thief as soon as the first move is used, or when I play a thief in Spvp people react as if they see me when I open on them.

In WvW I just sit there taking damage from an invisible source, when playing a thief in WvW the people I fight against do not react as if they can see me (if they aren’t killed outright in the opener).

magicthighs.5372:

How on earth does this mean the revealed debuff is not working in wvw? What you’re describing is culling (which, again, I only see in large battles, not small skirmishes) and has nothing to do with the revealed debuff. If it wouldn’t work that would mean you should be able to stealth while debuffed.

Culling happens no matter what. The amount of people does NOT matter. It has been proven many many times and people really need to stop saying that it only happens in zergs. It was happening in PvP and was fixed as much as possible by Anet. In WvW it’s a bigger issue.

No offense of course but I’m not sure if you read my post. Please go back and read it again so you can see how culling acts as extra stealth while you have the revealed debuff.

EvilSardine.9635:

magicthighs.5372:

How on earth does this mean the revealed debuff is not working in wvw? What you’re describing is culling (which, again, I only see in large battles, not small skirmishes) and has nothing to do with the revealed debuff. If it wouldn’t work that would mean you should be able to stealth while debuffed.

Culling happens no matter what. The amount of people does NOT matter. It has been proven many many times and people really need to stop saying that it only happens in zergs. It was happening in PvP and was fixed as much as possible by Anet. In WvW it’s a bigger issue.

And like I said, I myself do not experience seconds of delay regarding coming out of stealth in WvW in small skirmishes. I’m not talking about zergs here, I experience it in zergs, and when zergs are nearby. But I do not experience it when I’m alone in a forgotten corner of the map and a lone thief tries to get the jump on me.

No offense of course but I’m not sure if you read my post. Please go back and read it again so you can see how culling acts as extra stealth while you have the revealed debuff.

But culling does not act as extra stealth as far as the revealed debuff is concerned. That is my point. You cannot restealth (as in, use an ability that actually grants stealth) while having the revealed debuff.

Edit: What I’m saying is that there’s nothing wrong with the revealed debuff, it’s working like it says on the tin. Culling is the problem, and it’ll be removed in WvW too later on this month. Does the revealed debuff automatically start working correctly then?

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Dralor.3701:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

kbenton.4915:

I find it funny how people call WoW a broken kitten game (which it is), and then say anet should make gw more like wow. Hmmmm

I thought wow did a good job with stealth though. They didn’t have permastealthed killing enemies before the enemies could ever defend themselves.

Excuse me? WoW had stunlocking.

Stop trolling, please.

not trolling. I was addressing stealth, not other things. stop the personal attacks please.

That wasn’t a personal attack, I was pointing out that you’re trolling when you say stealth was fine in wow. You had guaranteed kills on people from stealth, unless they had a stunbreaker.

That’s not a problem with stealth. That’s an issue with stun.

Well then, if a thief kills you with Basilisk Venom -> C&D -> Steal -> Backstab combo before you even see him that’s not a stealth problem, since you can get out of it using a stun breaker. Sounds like issue with stun, right?

They didn’t have permastealth there

Apart from the whole being able to stay in stealth permanently.

There is a big difference between staying in stealth permanently, and having the appearance of permanent stealth while still being able to fully function in attack. The problem with thieves in GW2 WvW is they can take full action against you while not being rendered on the screen.

It would seem that culling is the problem then, not stealth. Luckily, Anet has said culling will be removed completely from WvW.

In other games with perma stealth you can see the thief/rogue as soon as they take their first action.

In GW2 you can see the thief as soon as he does direct damage. In large fights culling might be involved, but that has nothing to do with thieves themselves.

Nope, that’s not true. C&D for one, culling for another. Other classes can’t use culling to remain stealthed as thieves do. So it has plenty to do with thieves.

Culling is not stealth, stop pretending they’re the same thing. And C&D? From stealth? You’d get the revealed debuff. Other classes are subject to culling the same as thieves.

Seriously, stop talking nonsense.

Not stealth, but thieves get the most advantage from it because they can bridge their stealth downtimes with culling to get permastealth. As many of us have proven, the revealed “debuff” actually doesn’t work in wvwvw.

Thieves have bragged about how they can spam c&d and remain stealthed. Stop talking nonsense.

LOL Columba…

Is there a thread in this forum where you’re not whining about thieves?

It’s no wonder you struggle with them so much, you spend all your time here demanding nerfs than in game learning how to counter them.

Seriously, you take it to the the next level. It’s pretty funny.

oZii.2864:

What you are saying with supply is with any class I can take a scenario and say if I had 12 of X class it could do this better than any other class. If I had 12 eles they could totally make manning defending siege impossible thus rendering it ineffective. Thats basically what you said.

12 of all the same class would destroy alot of things and 12 thieves running together is dangerous for the thieves themselves, why because thats 12 chances to get revealed buff when you dont want to. You could be laying down shadow refuge to stomp someone but at the same time accidently revealing you partner who is actually try to cloak and dagger someone else.

I would steer clear of 12 thief group like the plague.

While I understand your point your ele comment is wrong. Proper siege placement helps alot. There are locations they cannot hit, my main is an GC Ele and clearing siege is actually a specialty of mine . Eles are very good, however, at hitting the locations where siege is vulnerable to attack troops. This is all besides the point though.

+Point being+ that while other classes can do some other stuff better, supply is the lifeblood of WvW. Easiest way to teach the importance of supply is pretend that it makes your entire BL 25% more effective at offense and 50% more effective at defense.

Without constant supply you will not hold objectives. Without supply sieging objectives is very difficult. You’ll need enough supplies for both at any given time or you will lose ground steadily until you are at the breakout event stage. This is a fact of life in WvW. The only time this is not true is when the match-up is incredibly imbalanced.

If you can, consistently, continue obtaining supply and denying the enemy supply you have quite a significant advantage in that BL. Supply camp captures for 100 supply whenever large groups happen to roll around is nowhere near equivalent to having supply camps stay within your power for periods of time and is not enough to sustain either an offensive or defense.

Also, pay attention. I did not say a group of 12 thieves running together. I said a coordinated group of 12 thieves working in pairs. Not willy nilly solo scrubs thinking they are good because they are thieves. That’s 6 pairs, there are 6 supply camps. Thus 2 thieves to a supply camp. As the situation requires the thieves are well capable of being mobile to help overpower small groups that may attempt to defend or take a supply camp. Also the 2 supply camps in your own territory many times do not need as much babysitting, possibly leaving 1-2 floating pairs.

You are also not looking to stack stealth here. This is not based around a prolonged offensive. These are quick strikes with high damage meant to take out camps and people quickly. You coordinate damage, you do your job, you get in and you get out. If you need to stay around long enough to start dropping multiple houses then you stayed too long. Mobility and damage are your weapons in this endeavor. Stealth is primarily there to set up your initial strike and to ditch any zergs that try to hunt you down.

Yes, stealth is OP. Yes, Culling is a huge issue in the game. Just walk around the Mystic Forge in Lions Arch and watch how people disappear at what appears to be 40-50ft in real world values. That’s how broken culling is. 20+ invaders can be that close before they render if at all before you die.

I will add though, someone high up in Anet must be infatuation with Thieves. It’s the only explanation for the class.

jportell.2197:

Aberrant.6749:

jportell.2197:

Bunker build useless? They are the only counter to a thief because the slow rendering and the haste of a thief make it impossible to render on your screen before a balanced build is dead… Can I go balanced? sure but I will die to a thief at some point instantly… I could also just go full zerk but I like surviving normal encounters too not just GC thieves.

It’s a passive defense. It’s boring. Often it doesn’t even work as you can’t kill what’s hitting you. All of my toons take a balanced approach. If you go more offensive than a bunker you’ll notice things like high vigor uptime kick in (depending on class). That means (with skill) you can avoid more damage than what a bunker can mitigate with just passive hp/toughness. On top of that you’re doing more damage than a bunker… so you kill things faster, and things still can’t kill you. Win-Win… presuming you have decent reaction time and skill (which you can get with practice). But some people can’t stay aware of their surroundings and are too sluggish and hit a stunbreaker when they see their character stop moving and then turn to stone I guess…

Here your logic is severely flawed… Bunker builds are wars of boons and attrition and its all about the bunker managing what they have. And bunkers are still a full on counter to the GC thief because it gives us reaction time before we are dead. It still takes about 1-2 seconds for a thief to fully show on your screen after they break stealth hell even on my mes when I come out of stealth (because Im like oh sheet sheet sheet run!) I turn back and see them doing nothing thinking “Why aren’t they chasing me?” Then I’m like oh yeah they still cant see me. Take a bunker Mesmer for instance I still have almost 2.9k attack total and nearly 3k armor… My shatters grant me specific boons that lead to the enemy killing themselves while they fight me… The only way I don’t get a stomp in this build is if they run (in which case I still win) or they slap more conditions on than I can remove because even when specced conditions are the bane of a Mesmer. I still do tons of damage because people are too stupid to notice that I have full uptime on retal and so does everything I have out… So It is most def not passive defense in this case. And to think other wise is just silly.

Lets see if I can clear this up for you without getting into some lame semantics argument… the PVT gear is passive.

You can build to make yourself and do some active things to make yourself more tanky even in an offensive gear set up (aka one way of making yourself balanced)

As you said… on your mesmer you rely on them hitting you to hit themselves… so players that don’t watch buffs/which phantasms are out/conditions. With practice you won’t need the passive damage reduction and hp pool of a PVT set to kill these players.

Balanced set ups give you time to react while still keeping good offense to be able to help more with taking towers/keeps/kill yak’s/etc… the parts of WvW that change scores…

I hope that helps

The following graph shows what I think.
Profession X can be almost every other profession. There are no real numbers involved, it is just to give you an idea of what I think is the effectiveness of a profession related to player’s skill.