Guild Wars 2

i just want ot ask the community for it’s opinion.

do you guys like the way organised WvW is?
where everybody hugs (literaly hugs) the commander or guild leader because it is the more efficient tactic?

or would you preffer battles to be more aesthetically pleasing and realistic
where you can pick out enemies among the zerg and actually fight instead of “melee-train” each other?

if u like it the way it is, fine.
if you dont, how could this be improved?

remove aoe cap?
add collision detection? or “soft” collision detection?
something else?

I’d somehow like a mixture of both. More small battles but large scale in special occasions. How is that possible? I dunno

my point is that there should be big battles, just not blob vs blob.

Personally, WvW is more of a “casual” mode for me. I usually play it when I just want to have a good time or when I’m too stoned or drunk to give a pebble, no competitiveness or whatever. If I want competitive play (or if I ever wanted to show off my uber awesomez skillz on YouTube for all the geeks to like and comment), I go into sPvP.

The only thing that really bothers me at the moment is the skill lag in WvW. The game is more than 6 months old and the issue still hasn’t been addressed. I’m not even gonna comment any further as I’ll definitely get another infraction. As for the blob vs blob thingie, I don’t have a problem with it in general, other than the constant lagging and unplayability.

Is so easy, remove aoe cap … is not too hard to understand …

ErlendR.6107:

Is so easy, remove aoe cap … is not too hard to understand …

I’ll see your blob and raise you 4 superior arrow carts….

(some days I think the people suggesting removing the aoe cap have never heard of retaliation. there are a few skills that sort of ignore the aoe cap, and you can just about insta-gib yourself using them on a big enough blob. I know, they have these visions of their 5 man elite zerg-busting unit dropping the pain on big balls of “noobs”, but in reality it would just be suicide by retaliation damage.)

Remove the aoe cap and in turn reduce overall dmg of the aoe skills.
Also get rid of those ridiculous golems. They are no way proper siege and any nitwit can for a blob with 10+ golems and rush the map while the others are asleep/outmanned.

The only tactic viable in wvw is:

1. Blob up
2. Stack buff
3. Hide behind obstacle
4. Rush enemy blob

Add to that the horrendous skill lag and you get tired of wvw pretty darn fast.

ErlendR.6107:

Is so easy, remove aoe cap … is not too hard to understand …

Did you just really link a screenshot from 5 months ago when turtles actually worked? I totally agree this game is blob wars (I’ve posted it many times), but come up with some better evidence then a turtle PvDooring from 5 months ago before warrior healing was nerfed and turtles still worked.

I know that screenshot is from 5 months ago because I was there when that screenshot was taken.

I wonder what the affect would be on WvW if you couldn’t pass through another player. I’d consider restricting player movement through opponents and friendlies alike.

Might not be good to implement for friendlies because of trolls, though you can see immediately that for people to zerg, they’d effectively be trapping themselves / losing mobility options. That may discourage mass zerging somewhat.

By making it impossible to move through an opponent might eliminate or restrict the zergs ability to roll over opponents w/o killing them first. There is never a “300” moment in this game where a smaller force could at least prevent a larger from moving through an area. The big zergs don’t even operate on the notion of killing you as an individual. It’s more about owning a plot of ground than killing.

If zergs were no longer able to physically pass through each other, I think you’d see much better battles w/ impromptu battle lines. The geography would be much more important. Think of the implications for portal-bombs. I’d really like ANet to consider this idea. It’s a game changer.

Jahiliyya.7095:

I wonder what the affect would be on WvW if you couldn’t pass through another player. I’d consider restricting player movement through opponents and friendlies alike.

GW1 had body blocking for arenas. Lots of good aspects of GW1 that made it competitive for odd reasons just never made it to GW2. Which is why SPvP is in the sorry state it’s in right now.

Trismegistos.3046:

i just want ot ask the community for it’s opinion.

do you guys like the way organised WvW is?
where everybody hugs (literaly hugs) the commander or guild leader because it is the more efficient tactic?

or would you preffer battles to be more aesthetically pleasing and realistic
where you can pick out enemies among the zerg and actually fight instead of “melee-train” each other?

if u like it the way it is, fine.
if you dont, how could this be improved?

remove aoe cap?
add collision detection? or “soft” collision detection?
something else?

It does become a disorganized blob of pick up players following the random commander around. Join an organized WvW guild on teamspeak and you will see how quickly they decimate a random blob zerg with far fewer numbers.

There’s tons of reasons for things being the way they are.

The map is designed horribly removing any real defensible positions outside of keeps.
Defenders are at a distinct disadvantage verse the attackers which doesn’t make sense.
Attackers don’t even need to use siege weapons to get into keeps if they have the numbers.
There’s no value in defense once the tally is taken.

And this isn’t even talking about how you remove healers from the game and replace them with the need to use healing fields. You don’t spread the AE around so every class has something meaingful to offer. You have no real ranged AE utility in the game. Many classes have no functional worth to a zerg. etc.

Remove the ability for siege in one tower to hit another tower.
Remove the ability for players to melee gates unless they use special weapons.
Make it so defenders in a keep gain a range advantage for standing on the wall and are given protection when going out of the keep entrance for 5 seconds.
Introduce a tiered sieging system so you actually need to defend what you take in order to encroach further into enemy territory.
If siege equipment goes unused for 1 minute, anyone can use it.
Increase harmful AE cap to 10 while leaving beneficial AE cap to 5.
Spread the WvW love to other classes (what does a thief offer a zerg? Other than water field, what use is a Ranger? With 3 out of every 5 players being a guardian or mesmer, what chance does a necro, condition ranger, or thief have? etc.)

Glenn.3417:

Remove the aoe cap and in turn reduce overall dmg of the aoe skills.
Also get rid of those ridiculous golems. They are no way proper siege and any nitwit can for a blob with 10+ golems and rush the map while the others are asleep/outmanned.

The only tactic viable in wvw is:

1. Blob up
2. Stack buff
3. Hide behind obstacle
4. Rush enemy blob

Add to that the horrendous skill lag and you get tired of wvw pretty darn fast.

To get what the OP is asking for you’d pretty much have to remove AoE (both dps and buffs) altogether. Removing the AoE cap just makes it less of a 1v1 type of fight. And by 1v1 I don’t mean like a duel within a group … I mean where I target you, he targets me, somebody else targets him, etc. I think (not sure since he wasn’t very clear what he wants) that’s what he meant by picking somebody out of a group.

Things that would break up the zerg.

1.) Remove AoE Cap.

2.) Limit rewards from events/kills. In PvE, shared rewards for events/kills are viable because of scaling. There is no scaling in WvW, and thus there shouldn’t be shared rewards. 100 people zerging through a supply camp shouldn’t be rewarded as much as one person solo’ing a supply camp. 10 players beating on one player shouldn’t be rewarded as much as 1v1 kills. Make it such that rewards are “shared” amongst a decent amount of players, but not excessively.

For example, a “normal event,” should reward up to 5 players, a “group event,” should reward up to 10 players, and a “zerg event,” should reward up to 25 players.

Basically “The numbers it should take to complete the event +5”

OR…

3.) Add scaling to WvW. The larger a zerg is, the stronger the keep/lord/whatever becomes. This means adding “time values,” to each WvW objective (A supply camp should take 2 minutes to cap, a tower 10 mins, a keep 30 mins etc.) and then scaling appropriately.

As #3 is not very viable, I would think the best changes are #1 and #2.

Reikou.7068:

Things that would break up the zerg.

1.) Remove AoE Cap.

2.) Limit rewards from events/kills. In PvE, shared rewards for events/kills are viable because of scaling. There is no scaling in WvW, and thus there shouldn’t be shared rewards. 100 people zerging through a supply camp shouldn’t be rewarded as much as one person solo’ing a supply camp. 10 players beating on one player shouldn’t be rewarded as much as 1v1 kills. Make it such that rewards are “shared” amongst a decent amount of players, but not excessively.

For example, a “normal event,” should reward up to 5 players, a “group event,” should reward up to 10 players, and a “zerg event,” should reward up to 25 players.

Basically “The numbers it should take to complete the event +5”

OR…

3.) Add scaling to WvW. The larger a zerg is, the stronger the keep/lord/whatever becomes. This means adding “time values,” to each WvW objective (A supply camp should take 2 minutes to cap, a tower 10 mins, a keep 30 mins etc.) and then scaling appropriately.

As #3 is not very viable, I would think the best changes are #1 and #2.

Well I would just suggest taking the ‘wxp,exp,karma,silver’ rewards and dividing them by the amount of players present. Rather then adding a cap on how many can get the reward. This would require raising the rewards for Keep capturing though as it generally takes a lot of people to capture those. Also, defense rewards need to be A LOT higher and awarded for just dealing damage, not only for getting tags on kills as it currently does(or repairing).

Zerg battles can be epic, but I don’t believe they should be everywhere on the map (camps – towers etc).. You don’t need 50-100 people for a tower and it shouldn’t be happening.. The groups of 50-100 should be at keeps, while smaller groups are flipping camps and medium sized groups are fighting over towers. It would be a lot more fun if this was how it worked, as opposed to 100 ppl zerging the whole map in one giant train.

As a Staff ele in WvW, i would just like to add that removing the AoE cap would make us ridiculously overpowered.

Jahiliyya.7095:

I wonder what the affect would be on WvW if you couldn’t pass through another player. I’d consider restricting player movement through opponents and friendlies alike.

Might not be good to implement for friendlies because of trolls, though you can see immediately that for people to zerg, they’d effectively be trapping themselves / losing mobility options. That may discourage mass zerging somewhat.

By making it impossible to move through an opponent might eliminate or restrict the zergs ability to roll over opponents w/o killing them first. There is never a “300” moment in this game where a smaller force could at least prevent a larger from moving through an area. The big zergs don’t even operate on the notion of killing you as an individual. It’s more about owning a plot of ground than killing.

If zergs were no longer able to physically pass through each other, I think you’d see much better battles w/ impromptu battle lines. The geography would be much more important. Think of the implications for portal-bombs. I’d really like ANet to consider this idea. It’s a game changer.

This was done with Warhammer Online, nothing like making a human door and then trying to hold them off

dank.3680:

Reikou.7068:

Things that would break up the zerg.

1.) Remove AoE Cap.

2.) Limit rewards from events/kills. In PvE, shared rewards for events/kills are viable because of scaling. There is no scaling in WvW, and thus there shouldn’t be shared rewards. 100 people zerging through a supply camp shouldn’t be rewarded as much as one person solo’ing a supply camp. 10 players beating on one player shouldn’t be rewarded as much as 1v1 kills. Make it such that rewards are “shared” amongst a decent amount of players, but not excessively.

For example, a “normal event,” should reward up to 5 players, a “group event,” should reward up to 10 players, and a “zerg event,” should reward up to 25 players.

Basically “The numbers it should take to complete the event +5”

OR…

3.) Add scaling to WvW. The larger a zerg is, the stronger the keep/lord/whatever becomes. This means adding “time values,” to each WvW objective (A supply camp should take 2 minutes to cap, a tower 10 mins, a keep 30 mins etc.) and then scaling appropriately.

As #3 is not very viable, I would think the best changes are #1 and #2.

Well I would just suggest taking the ‘wxp,exp,karma,silver’ rewards and dividing them by the amount of players present. Rather then adding a cap on how many can get the reward. This would require raising the rewards for Keep capturing though as it generally takes a lot of people to capture those. Also, defense rewards need to be A LOT higher and awarded for just dealing damage, not only for getting tags on kills as it currently does(or repairing).

Zerg battles can be epic, but I don’t believe they should be everywhere on the map (camps – towers etc).. You don’t need 50-100 people for a tower and it shouldn’t be happening.. The groups of 50-100 should be at keeps, while smaller groups are flipping camps and medium sized groups are fighting over towers. It would be a lot more fun if this was how it worked, as opposed to 100 ppl zerging the whole map in one giant train.

This would also work in my opinion. Both are reward systems with an upper limit of how much a faction earns. As of right now, there is no upper limit, which is why the zerg “strategy,” for dealing with everything has become so popular.

I also think some sort of “risk factor,” would also be a good thing to add to prevent stupid players from repeating stupid tactics and graveyard rushing. Losing WxP on death would be a good one I think. With this, WxP gain would also have to be adjusted, but it can be done.

cap aoe damage…

1-10 targets= 100% damage
11-20 targets= 75% damage
21-30 targets= 50% damage
31-40 targets= 25% damage
41 targets+ = 10% damage.

or something like that.

List of things this game needs to discourage zerging:
Larger maps, more reasons to defend, more reasons to do small groups (the fact that it’s technically more efficient to do so ain’t translating to actual gameplay), more strategy, less reward>high strategy mentality, more impact of small group play.

The AoE cap removal might help, but it might also devolve gameplay even more towards AoE spam, the difference being the zerg to most efficiently stack AoE would be victorious.

The murderball meta is coming from the fact that melee (basically the heavies) can just spam the 1 key on the move without even needing a target and cleaving multiple enemies. Too late to change this mechanic so unless ANet finds a way to better reward splitting people up, nothing will change.

Trismegistos.3046:

do you guys like the way organised WvW is?
where everybody hugs (literaly hugs) the commander or guild leader because it is the more efficient tactic?

I do not think it is the most efficient tactic, I think it is the easiest tactic and this game is all about hand holding bad players so that we can all experience mediocre play.

I’d also like something to be done with the way things are captured and the points they provide. It’s silly for the servers that can’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag to continually outrank other servers simply because they can control 95% of all BL’s on offhours. Something more needs to be done about this.

Say you capture a tower you get a large number of points and maintain the tower for a second hour you get another large number of points. But beyond that, you get next to no real benefit for holding on to it unless you’re actively defending it.

Before going overboard and doing something like removing AoE cap, how about drastically toning down Retaliation first?
This mindlessly applied boon punishes people that use AoE against blobs.

stack ? no problem…. bomb null field on them…..

kylia.4813:

Jahiliyya.7095:

I wonder what the affect would be on WvW if you couldn’t pass through another player. I’d consider restricting player movement through opponents and friendlies alike.

Might not be good to implement for friendlies because of trolls, though you can see immediately that for people to zerg, they’d effectively be trapping themselves / losing mobility options. That may discourage mass zerging somewhat.

By making it impossible to move through an opponent might eliminate or restrict the zergs ability to roll over opponents w/o killing them first. There is never a “300” moment in this game where a smaller force could at least prevent a larger from moving through an area. The big zergs don’t even operate on the notion of killing you as an individual. It’s more about owning a plot of ground than killing.

If zergs were no longer able to physically pass through each other, I think you’d see much better battles w/ impromptu battle lines. The geography would be much more important. Think of the implications for portal-bombs. I’d really like ANet to consider this idea. It’s a game changer.

This was done with Warhammer Online, nothing like making a human door and then trying to hold them off

ahh… WAR did actually have epic zerg battles, even though the foundations for sieges were not good at all.
body blocking (collision detection) first and foremost, and skills like guard and hold the line were what made it awesome.

TwoBit.5903:

List of things this game needs to discourage zerging:
Larger maps, more reasons to defend, more reasons to do small groups (the fact that it’s technically more efficient to do so ain’t translating to actual gameplay), more strategy, less reward>high strategy mentality, more impact of small group play.

The AoE cap removal might help, but it might also devolve gameplay even more towards AoE spam, the difference being the zerg to most efficiently stack AoE would be victorious.

This^^^

Removing the AoE cap would create more problems. You could have one zerg of nothing but Well/staff necro’s dominating an entire map.

I actually hope they remove the cap so the zergs get worse and it ends up being who can mark up the other zerg faster. This is a terrible idea.

Reikou.7068:

Things that would break up the zerg.

1.) Remove AoE Cap.

2.) Limit rewards from events/kills. In PvE, shared rewards for events/kills are viable because of scaling. There is no scaling in WvW, and thus there shouldn’t be shared rewards. 100 people zerging through a supply camp shouldn’t be rewarded as much as one person solo’ing a supply camp. 10 players beating on one player shouldn’t be rewarded as much as 1v1 kills. Make it such that rewards are “shared” amongst a decent amount of players, but not excessively.

For example, a “normal event,” should reward up to 5 players, a “group event,” should reward up to 10 players, and a “zerg event,” should reward up to 25 players.

Basically “The numbers it should take to complete the event +5”

OR…

3.) Add scaling to WvW. The larger a zerg is, the stronger the keep/lord/whatever becomes. This means adding “time values,” to each WvW objective (A supply camp should take 2 minutes to cap, a tower 10 mins, a keep 30 mins etc.) and then scaling appropriately.

As #3 is not very viable, I would think the best changes are #1 and #2.

This plus collision detection (unlikely that it’ll ever make it ingame unfortunately) would fix most of the zerg vs zerg problems and make WvW LOADS more fun.

Player collision would solve that. EQ1 did it in 1998, I’m sure GW2 could handle it. Though it does have some other problems, it would certainly solve the “blob”.

Removing the AOE camp for players in WvW would also solve the problem. The main reason people blob up is that it’s immunity from AE.

Ruprect.7260:

Removing the AoE cap would create more problems. You could have one zerg of nothing but Well/staff necro’s dominating an entire map.

If they all stack up then it’s our zerg of AoE users versus yours.

If they spread out a little bit then our zerg of thieves will obliterate your your zerg of AoE.

In reality all zergs will be a mix of AE and single target killers (like now) but they will be forced to spread out more. So contrary to your belief, increasing the AoE cap will actually make the single target killers far more valuable than they are today. Right now the single target killers get lost in the blob and killed. If we force the blob to spread out more, that will help.

Trismegistos.3046:

my point is that there should be big battles, just not blob vs blob.

What’s the difference in your mind?

Slamz.5376:

Ruprect.7260:

Removing the AoE cap would create more problems. You could have one zerg of nothing but Well/staff necro’s dominating an entire map.

If they all stack up then it’s our zerg of AoE users versus yours.

If they spread out a little bit then our zerg of thieves will obliterate your your zerg of AoE.

In reality all zergs will be a mix of AE and single target killers (like now) but they will be forced to spread out more. So contrary to your belief, increasing the AoE cap will actually make the single target killers far more valuable than they are today. Right now the single target killers get lost in the blob and killed. If we force the blob to spread out more, that will help.

A zerg of 60 necros would be able to lay so many marks/wells down that nothing would be able to get within 1200 range lol. This is about 420 wells/marks lol, they could be spread out so far that no even a double dodge roll would get through it. Then have about 20 condition mesmers with you and anything would be dead long before melee got anywhere near it.

Yeah they would have to spread out a little bit, and that would make it even worse for melee lol. as of now you at least have a counter by stacking.

Reason nr 1: Everything can be done in a blob, there simply is NOTHING that is done better if with fewer…
Nothing has some handicap where the npc’s suddenly hit super hard, or the siege suddenly blasts 10 times harder when there are more targets.

Pve champions and events have such mechanics, WvW does not.

As long as everything can be done better and faster with a blob, people will blob up.
You know why?
Because of reason nr 2…

Reason nr 2: Loot bags!
In a blob there are no diminishing returns on loot bags.
While in small fights you simply get less loot, always. Yup: ALWAYS.
Blobs = loot bags… simple as that.

So some might be in there for the lootbags, others might be in there to get things done.
but either way, the best way to achieve either goal, is to join a blob or be in an organised big guild group.

These 2 reasons do NOT apply to all of course.
But they do apply to most in WvW I’m afraid. Most are either there with their guild, or they join the commander badge for the 2 reasons above.
Everything small scale is flavor for the ones doing it for fun.
Fun is important, but getting loot and capping stuff is often fun too… hence back to reason 1 and 2…

There are smaller guild raids, and that is perfect. They do their thing and usually do it seperate from a blob, unless they really need to strenghten the numbers.

But as far as randoms go, this game needs to reward smaller teams over bigger teams.
And npc’s, siege weapons and loot bags are the way to do that. Those are the best mechanics to make sure not everything is done better with a blob!

The only way to discourage zerging is to make players need to split up the zerg. Simply removing the AE cap won’t have the impact many of you all think it will. DAoC still had zerging and it had no AE cap. WoW still had zerging and it had no AE cap originally. It would simply make certain classes even more useless while other even more overpowered (and coincidenty, it would make the same overpowered classes even more so and the same underpowered ones even more so).

If you couldn’t take SM without first controlling all of your towers in your section of the map, the zerg would need to split up to defend these points. The enemy would also be encouraged to split up to attack these other points.

If this game had more utility oriented AE (AE chills, ranged AE blinds, ranged AE weakness etc etc) instead of everything being about l337 d33p5 we wouldn’t be in the scenario we’re at now. Just like if AE was actually kept in mind when designing the classes so you wouldn’t have classes like Ele’s with tons and Guardians with next to none. If this game actually had the same amount of value with fields offensively as it did defensively imagine how much better this game would be. Imagine Necros putting conditions on targets that made poison damage deal double damage and then thieves dropping poison fields for other classes to projectile finish for example.

The map is designed in such a way where there’s little reason not to zerg. The buffing system is designed in a way where there’s little reason not to zerg. The healing system is designed in a way where there’s little reason not to zerg. This on top of the combat system in this game having no real depth whatsoever and you’re left exactly where we are now. Players using mindless zerg tactics because the game downright encourages you to do it.

Slamz.5376:

The main reason people blob up is that it’s immunity from AE.

It’s one important reason yes, but not sure if it’s the main reason. Personally I was more thinking that people act like sheep IRL and in game alike as one of the main reasons.
It’s far too easy to just follow the mass, if AoE cap is removed you’ll still see the commander icon act as a pug magnet as much as it does today, and guild groups will still be guild groups.

It’s partly a human nature thing. If zerging wasn’t fun for a lot of people, there wouldn’t have been all the wars where masses of humans “won” simply with overwhelming numbers (huns, romans, americans…..).

WvWvW is meant to be a massive war game. Massive armies crashing into each other, that was the plan. “Zerging” is actually what this game mode was MEANT to be. That doesn’t mean there is no room for small groups and roamers to have fun, it just means we’re roaming in a “zerging” game.

The WXP patch seems to have encouraged zergs, but also it seems to have brought lots of new people into WvWvW. It might not be my favorite way to play, but it’s also not really my place to say that no one should do it if they enjoy it (which, obvoiusly, they do).

Thrashbarg.9820:

ErlendR.6107:

Is so easy, remove aoe cap … is not too hard to understand …

I’ll see your blob and raise you 4 superior arrow carts….

(some days I think the people suggesting removing the aoe cap have never heard of retaliation. there are a few skills that sort of ignore the aoe cap, and you can just about insta-gib yourself using them on a big enough blob. I know, they have these visions of their 5 man elite zerg-busting unit dropping the pain on big balls of “noobs”, but in reality it would just be suicide by retaliation damage.)

we’d adapt to that problem, trust me.

Dynnen.6405:

Thrashbarg.9820:

ErlendR.6107:

Is so easy, remove aoe cap … is not too hard to understand …

I’ll see your blob and raise you 4 superior arrow carts….

(some days I think the people suggesting removing the aoe cap have never heard of retaliation. there are a few skills that sort of ignore the aoe cap, and you can just about insta-gib yourself using them on a big enough blob. I know, they have these visions of their 5 man elite zerg-busting unit dropping the pain on big balls of “noobs”, but in reality it would just be suicide by retaliation damage.)

we’d adapt to that problem, trust me.

By stacking in your own blob and blasting water fields? Getting enough mesmers and necros to strip the retaliation as fast as the blob could reapply it? Only running glamour mesmers and hoping the enemy blob just suicides on your confusion?

Those methods would require more than 1:5 odds to have much chance of success against even random groups randomly spamming stuff on/from their blob, so it wouldn’t change the “best counter for a zerg is a bigger zerg” meta.

How exactly would 5 players counter the retaliation damage from hitting 60+ targets at once?

(I’m not being sarcastic, I’m seriously asking. I run around in small groups and solo a lot and retaliation hurts already, I’d like to know a counter that doesn’t involve “bring more players”.)

Thrashbarg.9820:

I’ll see your blob and raise you 4 superior arrow carts….

(some days I think the people suggesting removing the aoe cap have never heard of retaliation. there are a few skills that sort of ignore the aoe cap, and you can just about insta-gib yourself using them on a big enough blob. I know, they have these visions of their 5 man elite zerg-busting unit dropping the pain on big balls of “noobs”, but in reality it would just be suicide by retaliation damage.)

I dont know how much is 1+1 but i swear on my own life is 3.
And yes, retaliation could be an issue for remove aoe cap. But not too different from get insta killed by a 50+ turtle zerg.

Did you just really link a screenshot from 5 months ago when turtles actually worked? I totally agree this game is blob wars (I’ve posted it many times), but come up with some better evidence then a turtle PvDooring from 5 months ago before warrior healing was nerfed and turtles still worked.

I know that screenshot is from 5 months ago because I was there when that screenshot was taken.

I dont play wvw but i ll say nobody stack anymore … and win …

It’s partly a human nature thing.

Agree just until that dot.
And yes, human nature, ppl will still zerg until the end of times :S
And talk nonsense too -.-

1) Add two more maps with important objects like SM.
2) Make 5 min CD for map changing
These two will destroy strategy zergs.

3) Divide frag WXP between all the ppl who dealt damage to killed player before his death (during his last combat mode ofc).
This will destroy WXP-zergs.

4) Create point multipliers for outmanned maps. E.g. Server X has 2 towers, 2 supply camps and is outmanned, Server Y has a tower and supply camp and is outmanned. Server Z has everything else and isn’t outmanned. Outmanned multiplier is 2.
Server X gets 60 pts per tick (30 w/o multiplier)
Server Y gets 30 pts per tick (15 w/o multiplier)
Server Y gets 100 pts per tick
32%/16%/52% (20%/10%/70% w/o multiplier)
This will not allow easy domination of night shift zergs. They would have to put effort into taking pretty much everything in the map to dominate. This will also make NPC events much more important for outmanned servers, cuz 2 homeland towers would bring them 40 pts instead of 20.
Its a matter of dispute though. But I think it could help.

I’m against AoE cap disabling. In that case the turtle QQ saga will continue, ACs will become useless also.

Thrashbarg.9820:

It’s partly a human nature thing. If zerging wasn’t fun for a lot of people, there wouldn’t have been all the wars where masses of humans “won” simply with overwhelming numbers (huns, romans, americans…..).

WvWvW is meant to be a massive war game. Massive armies crashing into each other, that was the plan. “Zerging” is actually what this game mode was MEANT to be. That doesn’t mean there is no room for small groups and roamers to have fun, it just means we’re roaming in a “zerging” game.

The WXP patch seems to have encouraged zergs, but also it seems to have brought lots of new people into WvWvW. It might not be my favorite way to play, but it’s also not really my place to say that no one should do it if they enjoy it (which, obvoiusly, they do).

this is all good, but irrelevant, u missed the point.

which is, BLOBS. zergs arent the problem, but BLOBS are.
ie: blob is when everyone hugs each other and all you see is letters.

It’s partly a human nature thing. 

The nature of online gamers is that they do what is effective. Nothing deeper than that going on here. :P

The best commanders find a way to make it interesting.

This Sunday, one of the DB commanders, for example, noticed that he had a huge zerg following him. He quickly split the entire zerg into six parts and attacked all areas of the map. There were interesting battles all over, and a few small groups were wiped too. But they took over the entire map in 8 minutes flat. Mad fun!

So yeah, it’s up to us whether we wish to have fun, or zerg. The design is not bad. There are many areas of improvement, no doubt, but I’m happy with the way WvW is structured in this game. And it will evolve, fingers crossed!

Start the petition! Remove the AOE cap!

Trismegistos.3046:

Thrashbarg.9820:

It’s partly a human nature thing. If zerging wasn’t fun for a lot of people, there wouldn’t have been all the wars where masses of humans “won” simply with overwhelming numbers (huns, romans, americans…..).

WvWvW is meant to be a massive war game. Massive armies crashing into each other, that was the plan. “Zerging” is actually what this game mode was MEANT to be. That doesn’t mean there is no room for small groups and roamers to have fun, it just means we’re roaming in a “zerging” game.

The WXP patch seems to have encouraged zergs, but also it seems to have brought lots of new people into WvWvW. It might not be my favorite way to play, but it’s also not really my place to say that no one should do it if they enjoy it (which, obvoiusly, they do).

this is all good, but irrelevant, u missed the point.

which is, BLOBS. zergs arent the problem, but BLOBS are.
ie: blob is when everyone hugs each other and all you see is letters.

I fail to see your point in the difference between blobs and zergs, in many tiers they are the same thing. When every “zerg” is a 50 man group where everyone hugs each other and all you see are letters.

As thrasbarg said the game is designed for zergs, and while the practice of zerging could be changed, you seem to be of a mind that zerging is fine. How do you intend to discourage the so called “blob”, and not the zerg.

Ardon.4105:

Trismegistos.3046:

Thrashbarg.9820:

It’s partly a human nature thing. If zerging wasn’t fun for a lot of people, there wouldn’t have been all the wars where masses of humans “won” simply with overwhelming numbers (huns, romans, americans…..).

WvWvW is meant to be a massive war game. Massive armies crashing into each other, that was the plan. “Zerging” is actually what this game mode was MEANT to be. That doesn’t mean there is no room for small groups and roamers to have fun, it just means we’re roaming in a “zerging” game.

The WXP patch seems to have encouraged zergs, but also it seems to have brought lots of new people into WvWvW. It might not be my favorite way to play, but it’s also not really my place to say that no one should do it if they enjoy it (which, obvoiusly, they do).

this is all good, but irrelevant, u missed the point.

which is, BLOBS. zergs arent the problem, but BLOBS are.
ie: blob is when everyone hugs each other and all you see is letters.

I fail to see your point in the difference between blobs and zergs, in many tiers they are the same thing. When every “zerg” is a 50 man group where everyone hugs each other and all you see are letters.

As thrasbarg said the game is designed for zergs, and while the practice of zerging could be changed, you seem to be of a mind that zerging is fine. How do you intend to discourage the so called “blob”, and not the zerg.

imo collision detection would solve pretty much everything.
zergers could still zerg, but they wouldnt be able to form a blob anymore.
you could pick out enemies from the zerg and fight them then.
with collision detection on, there would be a maximum of say 7 people where there is now 50.

I prefer large battles and keep sieges. But everyone is different. I feel if you want small battles or GvG that’s what those arena…things…are for. It is fun to run around in a small group in WvW, but it’s just not my cup o tea so to speak.

I really like the idea of collision detection.

Imagine, you are trebbing down a wall, it falls, you have the defenders outnumbered, but they put their warriors and guardians into the breach with any ranged and squishies behind. You could just charge, but you are more than likely going to assess and decide to attack using an element of strategy, send in your heavies first maybe, or ranging them down a bit first from afar. The whole idea opens up new ways of us being more creative in the way we fight. As it stands now, we just charge in and run them over, often some are left not even hit by the time we are in the Lords Room, it is too simplistic, currently the game is made to suit the lowest common denominator, let’s up the tactical skill threshold and realism a little maybe.

For those who like massive armies, imagine how good it would look to see your 50man unit spread out, like real army, rather balled up like…..well, I have no idea what they are like, no such thing actually exists.

As an afterthought, it would get rid of those immediate rezzes too when people have fallen, since you can’t ball up on them.

Ruprect.7260:

A zerg of 60 necros would be able to lay so many marks/wells down that nothing would be able to get within 1200 range lol. This is about 420 wells/marks lol, they could be spread out so far that no even a double dodge roll would get through it.

Yeah, now all you need is 60 necros with military discipline.

Realistically, though, what would happen is some people stream in, set off all the marks, get downed, get raised up by the people streaming in behind them and then the necros all die. Necro marks tend to work best when you can plop them down on top of a big group. Simply setting them around as “traps” tends to result in them getting set off by 1 guy.

Increase map size and/or add more maps(borderlands)/objectives to split up the forces more.

I also like the idea of collision detection to prevent hordes of people from standing in a 10×10 area, this would help immensely with the AOE cap as you would simply target more than just one area and have better chances of hitting everyone in that area, instead of only 5 of the 30 standing in one spot.

I love nothing more than stomping down a 40+ man zerg with 20 organized guildies on TS wearing toughness and following tactical movements, but now that some servers have given up on becoming better at fighting with less people (and have conceited to rolling around the borderland with the entire active force in that area, cough TC cough ) it’s really becoming a huge bore and will be the death of a lot of T2 guilds.