Guild Wars 2

papacooldown.9482:

There is a reason you dont see bleed mesmers, its because mesmer bleeds are horribly inconsistent to the point that they are not viable in any setting. When we build for condition damage, we have abysmal damage output outside of confusion. Confusion is close to worthless in spvp due to lack of access to condition duration food and abysmal output. It is worthless in pve because mobs dont attack often enough and again it doesnt last long enough. If you nerf confusion you kill the only viable wvw condition builds for mesmers, and then we all go back to shatter or phantasm builds….

In honesty It could probably use a 15-25 % nerf in wvw with a 15-25 increase in duration to compensate. Just dont nerf it to spvp levels where it is nearly worthless even against heartseeker spamming noobs.

I’d go along with increased duration and perhaps even do something like make it a nonremovable debuff or something harder to remove. That would require a substantial reduction in straight damage however. IMO, condition damage is supposed to be sustained damage, not burst damage.

Confusion could be nerfed in WvW, if you just want to see yet more shattercats.

The only situation where I find it’s devastatingly effective is in fighting thieves who don’t pay any attention to conditions (i.e. the vast majority of bad players). It’s least effective in fighting outnumbered – you can AoE confusion but not with the kind of stacks that you can put on one opponent. By comparison, a good D/D ele or thief can win a 3-on-1 more often than not. So long as the 3 doesn’t include a confusion mesmer. hehe

Bones.5762:

Smitten.3076:

I’ve always said Confusion was sleeper OP, it seems people have finally caught on ( some balance changes inadvertently buffed it ). Confusion is currently to strong, as has been stated before in coordinated groups its a huge force multiplier. It’s not simply Mezmers that are the issue, Engineers as well.

So signed … ANet needs to nerf confusion damage, there’s no reason a condition that punishes you for action should do the damage it does, nor do I think it’s intended.

umm, if i remember correctly, the engineer has 2 skills that can even apply confusion, 3 stacks if i remember right, so if anybody is running an engineer trying to do a confusion build is probably not a very viable build. Yes condition dmg engineers are still strong but that’s because they can apply other conditions like poisons/burns/bleeds but their skill set isn’t focused on one thing where they can just effectively spam one type of condition such as a necro spaming bleeds.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar

If an Asura, also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Speech
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Inverter

Wait… you are the same guy who said this:

@oozo
If you don’t understand the class you’re fighting, learn it instead of complaining about them

How ironic. But wait, you also said:

i can say that mesmers have the lowest health pool

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

lLobo.7960:

Turn off your autoatacks.

Not the problem. Here it is broken down for ya.

1) Can’t stop the clones effectively. Most of the time its difficult to kill them due to culling/chasing down the real mesmer. I personally can’t drop 4-5k damage into the clones to get rid of them quickly, even if I could see them
2) Unless you are specifically looking for it in the mess of conditions that appear 4-7 at a time fighting in small group fights, you won’t really see it until after you’ve swung or used a utility.
3) It takes you out of the fight and turns you into a non-combatant. Once you have that many stacks of confusion and are out of cleansing you basically have to try to escape combat while avoiding direct damage from the d/d eles/thieves.
4) to say that a condition mesmer doesn’t have any other damage is pretty short sighted. Staff with Sword/Scepter/Focus/Torch puts out a lot of extra non-clone conditions/utility/support/damage.

As with most problems in wvw it comes down to culling. If I could see the mesmer clones rushing at me it would be excessively helpful. However having decoy/mirror image/dodge clone/mass invis/etc its really obnoxious. I was in the middle of an enemy zerg chasing down a giant norn mesmer when he popped mirror image with a dodge. The clones were there, however the 20+ enemies that were surrounding me immediately vanished. So…yea that was fun, but at least I kittening dodged the shatter combo!

Oozo.7856:

Bones.5762:

Smitten.3076:

I’ve always said Confusion was sleeper OP, it seems people have finally caught on ( some balance changes inadvertently buffed it ). Confusion is currently to strong, as has been stated before in coordinated groups its a huge force multiplier. It’s not simply Mezmers that are the issue, Engineers as well.

So signed … ANet needs to nerf confusion damage, there’s no reason a condition that punishes you for action should do the damage it does, nor do I think it’s intended.

umm, if i remember correctly, the engineer has 2 skills that can even apply confusion, 3 stacks if i remember right, so if anybody is running an engineer trying to do a confusion build is probably not a very viable build. Yes condition dmg engineers are still strong but that’s because they can apply other conditions like poisons/burns/bleeds but their skill set isn’t focused on one thing where they can just effectively spam one type of condition such as a necro spaming bleeds.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar

If an Asura, also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Speech
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Inverter

Wait… you are the same guy who said this:

@oozo
If you don’t understand the class you’re fighting, learn it instead of complaining about them

How ironic. But wait, you also said:

i can say that mesmers have the lowest health pool

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

@bones

Ross Biddle.2367:

kylia.4813:

jkctmc.8754:

kylia.4813:

kazi.6438:

Also, I have never seen confusion reach 4-5k damage. If someone was actually able to do that, they deserve a medal.

Can I have a medal please.

3rd fight against Warrior (the highest I’ve gotten on video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMI_MzO52lw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That 7k Confusion tick makes me want to respec my Mesmer. O.O

Check out the other video’s while your there

Just wait until you apply all that confusion and your enemy decides to transfer his newly gifted conditions back to you. You’ll never have so much respect for your build until that day

Rule 1 when making a build:

1. Know how to defeat your build

Oozo.7856:

Bones.5762:

Smitten.3076:

I’ve always said Confusion was sleeper OP, it seems people have finally caught on ( some balance changes inadvertently buffed it ). Confusion is currently to strong, as has been stated before in coordinated groups its a huge force multiplier. It’s not simply Mezmers that are the issue, Engineers as well.

So signed … ANet needs to nerf confusion damage, there’s no reason a condition that punishes you for action should do the damage it does, nor do I think it’s intended.

umm, if i remember correctly, the engineer has 2 skills that can even apply confusion, 3 stacks if i remember right, so if anybody is running an engineer trying to do a confusion build is probably not a very viable build. Yes condition dmg engineers are still strong but that’s because they can apply other conditions like poisons/burns/bleeds but their skill set isn’t focused on one thing where they can just effectively spam one type of condition such as a necro spaming bleeds.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar

If an Asura, also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Speech
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Inverter

Wait… you are the same guy who said this:

@oozo
If you don’t understand the class you’re fighting, learn it instead of complaining about them

How ironic. But wait, you also said:

i can say that mesmers have the lowest health pool

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

GJ you finally decided to educate yourself with wiki facts. But i did say if i remember correctly

with this engineer build i would be able to run 2 kits, 2 additional skills with no stunbreakers and one possible condition removal with medkit and be OP. thanks Oozo for giving out great builds, you’ve totally explained why confusion builds are OP, just apply hacks and exploits for wins right?

I said of the 4 classes i play, my mesmer has the lowest health pool, HP if you would call it.

Bones.5762:

Oozo.7856:

Bones.5762:

Smitten.3076:

I’ve always said Confusion was sleeper OP, it seems people have finally caught on ( some balance changes inadvertently buffed it ). Confusion is currently to strong, as has been stated before in coordinated groups its a huge force multiplier. It’s not simply Mezmers that are the issue, Engineers as well.

So signed … ANet needs to nerf confusion damage, there’s no reason a condition that punishes you for action should do the damage it does, nor do I think it’s intended.

umm, if i remember correctly, the engineer has 2 skills that can even apply confusion, 3 stacks if i remember right, so if anybody is running an engineer trying to do a confusion build is probably not a very viable build. Yes condition dmg engineers are still strong but that’s because they can apply other conditions like poisons/burns/bleeds but their skill set isn’t focused on one thing where they can just effectively spam one type of condition such as a necro spaming bleeds.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar

If an Asura, also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Speech
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Inverter

Wait… you are the same guy who said this:

@oozo
If you don’t understand the class you’re fighting, learn it instead of complaining about them

How ironic. But wait, you also said:

i can say that mesmers have the lowest health pool

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

GJ you finally decided to educate yourself with wiki facts. But i did say if i remember correctly

with this engineer build i would be able to run 2 kits, 2 additional skills with no stunbreakers and one possible condition removal with medkit and be OP. thanks Oozo for giving out great builds, you’ve totally explained why confusion builds are OP, just apply hacks and exploits for wins right?

I said of the 4 classes i play, my mesmer has the lowest health pool, HP if you would call it.

I already knew all of that because I researched classes and builds a very long time ago. I’ve been playing since early beta.

Go ahead and list the three classes that have a higher health pool than your mesmer. Be sure to read the link I posted carefully before doing so.

necro, warrior, engineer, ranger

I’ve been playing since bw3 as well, so i know what i’m dealing with. I have a mesmer and i have that build so i know how to counter it and it’s weak spots. The only question is if i’m traited for it? or geared for it? if i’m not geared for toughness and condition removal in WvW maybe i’m not doing something right, but if you’re glass cannon complaining about this then you’re argument is invalid, but if i recall you said you was a guardian i believe, not gonna go back and look up your exact words but yeah.

I have not seen 1 engineer trying to run a valid confusion build and make it work in all my time spent in wvw (500+hours). If there is any confusion dmg engineer who considers themselves to be OP, i would like to see fraps on build and how you use it in wvw because it sounds pretty fun.

kylia.4813:

Ross Biddle.2367:

kylia.4813:

jkctmc.8754:

kylia.4813:

kazi.6438:

Also, I have never seen confusion reach 4-5k damage. If someone was actually able to do that, they deserve a medal.

Can I have a medal please.

3rd fight against Warrior (the highest I’ve gotten on video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMI_MzO52lw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That 7k Confusion tick makes me want to respec my Mesmer. O.O

Check out the other video’s while your there

Just wait until you apply all that confusion and your enemy decides to transfer his newly gifted conditions back to you. You’ll never have so much respect for your build until that day

Rule 1 when making a build:

1. Know how to defeat your build

Just watched your movie. I guess it’s a good thing that you are playing a class that doesn’t require good movement while using abilities since you mouseclick your utilities, your shatters, and some times your weapon skills.

Oozo.7856:

kylia.4813:

Ross Biddle.2367:

kylia.4813:

jkctmc.8754:

kylia.4813:

kazi.6438:

Also, I have never seen confusion reach 4-5k damage. If someone was actually able to do that, they deserve a medal.

Can I have a medal please.

3rd fight against Warrior (the highest I’ve gotten on video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMI_MzO52lw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That 7k Confusion tick makes me want to respec my Mesmer. O.O

Check out the other video’s while your there

Just wait until you apply all that confusion and your enemy decides to transfer his newly gifted conditions back to you. You’ll never have so much respect for your build until that day

Rule 1 when making a build:

1. Know how to defeat your build

Just watched your movie. I guess it’s a good thing that you are playing a class that doesn’t require good movement while using abilities since you mouseclick your utlities, your shatters, and some times your weapon skills.

Always room for improvement

Bones.5762:

I said of the 4 classes i play, my mesmer has the lowest health pool, HP if you would call it.

Oozo.7856:

Go ahead and list the three classes that have a higher health pool than your mesmer. Be sure to read the link I posted carefully before doing so.

Bones.5762:

necro, warrior, engineer, ranger

Hehe, technically he’s right. Mesmer does have the lowest health pool when counted among those 4.
Grats on the faceplant, Oozo.

SoggyFrog.4170:

Bones.5762:

I said of the 4 classes i play, my mesmer has the lowest health pool, HP if you would call it.

Oozo.7856:

Go ahead and list the three classes that have a higher health pool than your mesmer. Be sure to read the link I posted carefully before doing so.

Bones.5762:

necro, warrior, engineer, ranger

Hehe, technically he’s right. Mesmer does have the lowest health pool when counted among those 4.
Grats on the faceplant, Oozo.

That is why I asked my question this way: “Go ahead and list the three classes that have a higher health pool than your mesmer.”

I specifically asked it that way to avoid the technicality argument. He replied: “necro, warrior, engineer, ranger” – two of which do not have a higher health pool than the mesmer.

Grats on your faceplant, SoggyFrog. Perhaps next time you should read the question first.

BTW, still trying to figure out why he listed four non-mesmer classes when he said he played 4 classes including a mesmer. Then again, numbers is hard.

I think you’re taking this on a personal level, I’m simply saying learn what you need to counter it, will you always have those skills available or run with that build? most likely not but you’re a guardian, so i can’t really say what skills you use because i don’t know of them too much.

Classes will never be balanced because theres always going to be a trinity of what beats what in this game. lets say thieves beat mesmers, mesmers beat guardians, guardians beat thieves.

^
also this is not completely accurate as it falls on player skills and builds, but that seems to be the general idea of what class has trouble with what.

I expect to be at a disadvantage against certain builds just as certain builds are at a disadvantage to me. But, my issue isn’t really 1v1 – it’s what can happen in a group versus group fight. With the damage that can be put out via WvW-based confusion with food, oil, and stacks you can be put in no-win situations where doing something gets you killed because you did something and doing nothing gets you killed because you did nothing.

Possible fixes:

Reduce damage of confusion in WvW.
Have confusion not work against heals and defensive abilities.

Possible compensation:

Give confusion more duration.
Make confusion harder to remove.
Strengthen confusion/condition builds in other ways.

Condition builds should be about sustained damage, not burst damage.

To sum up:

This thread is now about how Oozo got destroyed by a confusion mesmer and now he feels its justified nerfing it based off that. Awesome, while we’re at it, nerf guardian heals, nerf any classes burst damage and removal mesmers and instill clown as a profession.

It’s only burst if you blindly attack through 10+ stacks of confusion. I’m sorry you’re unable to “do your job” when you have confusion on you. I’m unable to do my job when I’m dead. And please don’t take this thread so personally.

Archer.1658:

To sum up:

This thread is now about how Oozo got destroyed by a confusion mesmer and now he feels its justified nerfing it based off that. Awesome, while we’re at it, nerf guardian heals, nerf any classes burst damage and removal mesmers and instill clown as a profession.

One half projection and the other half strawman arguments. Well done.

Oozo.7856:

Archer.1658:

To sum up:

This thread is now about how Oozo got destroyed by a confusion mesmer and now he feels its justified nerfing it based off that. Awesome, while we’re at it, nerf guardian heals, nerf any classes burst damage and removal mesmers and instill clown as a profession.

One half projection and the other half strawman arguments. Well done.

You feel that nerfing it is justified based on what? The amount of damage it does? Im not getting this. Majority of people have said its a L2P issue, yet you insist it is not. It’s very clear you are upset that you lost to a confusion mesmer or engineer or w/e confusion spec profession that apparently demoralized you to continue this crusade in trying to nerf confusion. Again, if you want confusion nerfed, then here are the terms. Nerf guardian healing by x% and burst damage on all professions by x% to be fair. Considering these are Op as well.

I play an confusion mesmer AND an engineer (which is my main), which both have good access on confusion. It’s a killer for anyone not able to remove conditions immediatly or the careless ones. The reason it seems to tick from no action at all is because some profs have automated skills. For example if a guardian refreshes one of his virtues this is counted as an skill activation.

You may know about the 100 nades engineer build which is popular right now. If you use a sigil which procs on weapon switch this counts for a confusion tick. The weapon switch itself counts for a confusion tick, so does the spell created from kit refinement. So if I was to remove that confusion with my #4 medkit skill, which also creates 1 confusion tick i receive 4 ticks of confusion for 1 attempt to remove it.

In my oppinion the ticks need an internal CD. So that there can’t be more then 1 tick each second or maybe even every 2 seconds.

You feel that nerfing it is justified based on what? The amount of damage it does? Im not getting this. Majority of people have said its a L2P issue, yet you insist it is not. It’s very clear you are upset that you lost to a confusion mesmer or engineer or w/e confusion spec profession that apparently demoralized you to continue this crusade in trying to nerf confusion. Again, if you want confusion nerfed, then here are the terms. Nerf guardian healing by x% and burst damage on all professions by x% to be fair. Considering these are Op as well.

Or I’m giving my honest opinion on balance? I have not lost a 1v1 against a confusion-based build recently (not to say that I wouldn’t). That is not surprising since I don’t really 1v1 that much as Guardian is really not the best class for roaming around while alone and I’m not built for 1v1s (however it does hold up well against most power builds).

I know the damage that a high condition damage mesmer can do from being hit with multiple stacks, testing with a friend, and by watching movies. I think it’s too hard of a shutdown.

I also believe that there are certain power builds that do too much damage. Interestingly enough it’s the same exact reason why I feel that confusion is out line: formulas based on PvE and not PvP with food, oil, and stacks amplifying the disparity.

I really can’t give my opinion on guardian healing since I don’t run it personally and I’ve never run across a guardian that had healing that felt over-the-top ridiculous to me. I’m sure they exist though.

silvershadez.8421:

I play an confusion mesmer AND an engineer (which is my main), which both have good access on confusion. It’s a killer for anyone not able to remove conditions immediatly or the careless ones. The reason it seems to tick from no action at all is because some profs have automated skills. For example if a guardian refreshes one of his virtues this is counted as an skill activation.

You may know about the 100 nades engineer build which is popular right now. If you use a sigil which procs on weapon switch this counts for a confusion tick. The weapon switch itself counts for a confusion tick, so does the spell created from kit refinement. So if I was to remove that confusion with my #4 medkit skill, which also creates 1 confusion tick i receive 4 ticks of confusion for 1 attempt to remove it.

In my oppinion the ticks need an internal CD. So that there can’t be more then 1 tick each second or maybe even every 2 seconds.

Excellent suggestion. Taking multiple confusion tics from one move is another example of how poorly thought out and constructed confusion is at the moment.

Oozo.7856:

IMO, condition damage is supposed to be sustained damage, not burst damage

Except the design of confusion implies that it’s the opposite.

Retaliation is supposed to be about sustained damage. Stacking adds duration. Most sources last at least 5 seconds if not longer (Save Yourself is 10). Not very difficult for certain classes to run with near permanent retaliation.

Confusion is pretty much all about burst damage. Stacking adds intensity. Most sources only last for 3 seconds with only a handful lasting for 5 (most which belong to engineer). Very difficult (if playing a competent opponent) to apply more then just a handful of stacks (Cry of Frustration being the only spell that gives more then 3 that isn’t as easy to dodge ).

Things can only be balanced when compared to something else and you’d have to be insane to say that confusion builds are dominant and ruining WvW atm. There are much bigger problems with WvW then a build that specializes at beating your support guardian in a 1v1 fight.

Again, there is no reason that confusion should proc on swapping attunements.

An Ele loses as much health swapping to water to cleanse as they gain by swapping to water.

Welp, I read the whole thread and my opinion hasn’t changed. Learn to look at your condition bar and cleanse confusion. It’s really not hard. I think we have some perma-noobs in here.

It’s totally fine rofl. I once spammed all my confusion i had on ele. He just kept removing it. After 2 minutes battle he still fled unharmed. It may be dangerous to some profession, but hey everyone must have a weakness.

SteepledHat.1345:

Welp, I read the whole thread and my opinion hasn’t changed. Learn to look at your condition bar and cleanse confusion.

Or, just wait the three seconds for it to drop. AFAIK it’s the only damaging condition in the game that has the potential to do zero damage after a successful cast.

Owait… Zero damage???! Buff confusion!

Look at confusion as CC and just accept defeat if you are not able to run until it wears off.
There are enough troll builds in this game that can paint any class in a corner. But they are very one sided in themselves and if you don’t fight on their terms, they are useless.
That being said, I know how annoying confusion is and can understand peoples frustration, but there are many builds to hard counter your profession and you will meet them and die at some point or the other.
Don’t fight on their terms, consider retreat as a battle option and just move off to another place/map if you find your hard counter.

I run a pretty high amount of condition cleansing (V in Valor, IX in Virtues, Lyssa runes/Renewed Focus) due to the amount of it I get hit with mid combat. A mesmer that isn’t completely kitten can keep 1-3 stacks on me most of the fight and good ones keep it even higher. But hey just say “ kitten perma noobs” cause that makes sense.

I understand that the amount of condition cleansing should be a little lower than condition application, but there was a reason it was nerfed in SPvP and not in PVE. That is because mobs don’t do as many actions in PVE so the damage should be higher. Most people saying its fine are assuming its the only condition on you from the mesmer, which is a bit funny. If your confusion isn’t doing any damage in SPvP or WvW and you’re not covering it with other conditions…you’re doing it wrong.

AGAIN…this is mostly a problem with culling and hardly any dev focus on wvw.

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

So what?
You want to nerf confusion damage and make it so the condition means nothing?

If it doesn’t do so much damage that you have to take action to remove it, it would be completely pointless to apply it. The point of the condition is to do enough damage that the person has to react. Not so that you have confusion on you but just keep mashing your skill buttons and don’t die.

It’s a punishment condition, not a dot condition.

The reason a condition that limits action taken should do 3-5,000 damage is because the damage is HOW it limits action taken. If you lower that, you remove the purpose of using confusion. Which I can tell you, is nearly worthless in sPvP except, like in wvw, when used against bad players. And even then, they have to REALLY not be paying attention before it actually does anything to them.

Umm, if you take the damage away from confusion it won’t force inaction…. So then it would be a 0 purpose condition

Edit, person above me just covered it

Oozo.7856:

Or I’m giving my honest opinion on balance? I have not lost a 1v1 against a confusion-based build recently (not to say that I wouldn’t). That is not surprising since I don’t really 1v1 that much as Guardian is really not the best class for roaming around while alone and I’m not built for 1v1s (however it does hold up well against most power builds).

I know the damage that a high condition damage mesmer can do from being hit with multiple stacks, testing with a friend, and by watching movies. I think it’s too hard of a shutdown.

I also believe that there are certain power builds that do too much damage. Interestingly enough it’s the same exact reason why I feel that confusion is out line: formulas based on PvE and not PvP with food, oil, and stacks amplifying the disparity.

I really can’t give my opinion on guardian healing since I don’t run it personally and I’ve never run across a guardian that had healing that felt over-the-top ridiculous to me. I’m sure they exist though.

So you are basing your opinion of theoretical damage and videos where people show only their best fights don’t show or tell you about the weaknesses of a build? For example yes confusion can do high damage but you have the power to make it do 0, putting the control of the fight in your hands. A well played guardian or d/d ele shouldn’t ever die to a confusion mesmer 1v1.

It is always a good idea to try fighting against the build at least few times or trying to counter a build before you say it should be nerfed (because in theory you think it is too powerful). Or even better try out the spec which is the best way to learn the specs weaknesses. There has been a lot of good advice in this thread, so it might be a good idea to try that first then make an informed opinion.

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

Every other condition’s ticks are guaranteed to happen unless cleansed. ONLY with confusion does a target have more options. Condition removal down? Just quit spamming buttons and take zero dmg. Give me another burn so I can kill good players as well as the bad ones (something that is hard to do with confusion), and I’ll gladly quit arguing.

EnRohbi.2187:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

So what?
You want to nerf confusion damage and make it so the condition means nothing?

If it doesn’t do so much damage that you have to take action to remove it, it would be completely pointless to apply it. The point of the condition is to do enough damage that the person has to react. Not so that you have confusion on you but just keep mashing your skill buttons and don’t die.

It’s a punishment condition, not a dot condition.

The reason a condition that limits action taken should do 3-5,000 damage is because the damage is HOW it limits action taken. If you lower that, you remove the purpose of using confusion. Which I can tell you, is nearly worthless in sPvP except, like in wvw, when used against bad players. And even then, they have to REALLY not be paying attention before it actually does anything to them.

I’m going to use you as an example, sorry in advance, it’s not personal.

WHY do you people who immediately jump on the “don’t nerf me bro” bandwagon always instantly assume calls for nerf imply we want the -whatever- made useless? Why is this a staple of every bloody argument in response? No one ever stated they wanted it useless, we stated it needs to be nerfed. There is a world of difference between the two implications, confusion needs to be brought in line with current WvW balance. It’s to strong of a force multiplier, it’s to strong of a condition. You can attempt to justify it all you like, but you’re wrong and you know it.

Confusion :
-Force Cleanse
or
-Force Inactivity
otherwise
-Damage ( Sometimes in excess of 3-5k)

Compare that to every other condition in the game; confusion wins in damage and utility. The issue with Confusion is it absolutely requires the player affected to deal with it first, before escaping, healing, dodging, attacking, or retreating he -must- deal with confusion first. When confusion was hitting for 1k damage this was still the case, you still had to handle confusion … but there was a middle ground, you could pay the tax and perform another action. It was still costly, it just wasn’t crushing as it is now.

I’m still of the mind that confusion damage was inadvertently buffed and will be nerfed with an “oops we didn’t mean to do that, you guys are silly if you think that was balanced” message.

EnRohbi.2187:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

So what?
You want to nerf confusion damage and make it so the condition means nothing?

If it doesn’t do so much damage that you have to take action to remove it, it would be completely pointless to apply it. The point of the condition is to do enough damage that the person has to react. Not so that you have confusion on you but just keep mashing your skill buttons and don’t die.

It’s a punishment condition, not a dot condition.

The reason a condition that limits action taken should do 3-5,000 damage is because the damage is HOW it limits action taken. If you lower that, you remove the purpose of using confusion. Which I can tell you, is nearly worthless in sPvP except, like in wvw, when used against bad players. And even then, they have to REALLY not be paying attention before it actually does anything to them.

Christ…would you even be able to play if your F1/F2 spam was balanced? You’re telling me that you only throw confusion out and stare at them? Or dont do anything else while this player you’re fighting is basically CCed for the duration? And worthless in Spvp? Seems like a really effective way to defend a point…ohh wait it is. Gtfo

Dhampyr.2104:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

Every other condition’s ticks are guaranteed to happen unless cleansed. ONLY with confusion does a target have more options. Condition removal down? Just quit spamming buttons and take zero dmg. Give me another burn so I can kill good players as well as the bad ones (something that is hard to do with confusion), and I’ll gladly quit arguing.

If you think taking no action is an “option” in a WvW fight, then there’s really no point in me discussing anything with you.

Dynnen.6405:

EnRohbi.2187:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

So what?
You want to nerf confusion damage and make it so the condition means nothing?

If it doesn’t do so much damage that you have to take action to remove it, it would be completely pointless to apply it. The point of the condition is to do enough damage that the person has to react. Not so that you have confusion on you but just keep mashing your skill buttons and don’t die.

It’s a punishment condition, not a dot condition.

The reason a condition that limits action taken should do 3-5,000 damage is because the damage is HOW it limits action taken. If you lower that, you remove the purpose of using confusion. Which I can tell you, is nearly worthless in sPvP except, like in wvw, when used against bad players. And even then, they have to REALLY not be paying attention before it actually does anything to them.

Christ…would you even be able to play if your F1/F2 spam was balanced? You’re telling me that you only throw confusion out and stare at them? Or dont do anything else while this player you’re fighting is basically CCed for the duration? And worthless in Spvp? Seems like a really effective way to defend a point…ohh wait it is. Gtfo

You seem to confuse me for a confusion built mesmer. But that’s okay, I know rude people like to make assumptions and fling baseless insults.

I run mostly in GC gear and get very little damage from confusion, I use it mostly to supplement what damage I do elsewhere.
A nerf to it would have minimal impact on my build, so I assure you none of this is personal for me (Seems to be for you though).

Smitten.3076:

EnRohbi.2187:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

So what?
You want to nerf confusion damage and make it so the condition means nothing?

If it doesn’t do so much damage that you have to take action to remove it, it would be completely pointless to apply it. The point of the condition is to do enough damage that the person has to react. Not so that you have confusion on you but just keep mashing your skill buttons and don’t die.

It’s a punishment condition, not a dot condition.

The reason a condition that limits action taken should do 3-5,000 damage is because the damage is HOW it limits action taken. If you lower that, you remove the purpose of using confusion. Which I can tell you, is nearly worthless in sPvP except, like in wvw, when used against bad players. And even then, they have to REALLY not be paying attention before it actually does anything to them.

I’m going to use you as an example, sorry in advance, it’s not personal.

WHY do you people who immediately jump on the “don’t nerf me bro” bandwagon always instantly assume calls for nerf imply we want the -whatever- made useless? Why is this a staple of every bloody argument in response? No one ever stated they wanted it useless, we stated it needs to be nerfed. There is a world of difference between the two implications, confusion needs to be brought in line with current WvW balance. It’s to strong of a force multiplier, it’s to strong of a condition. You can attempt to justify it all you like, but you’re wrong and you know it.

Confusion :
-Force Cleanse
or
-Force Inactivity
otherwise
-Damage ( Sometimes in excess of 3-5k)

Compare that to every other condition in the game; confusion wins in damage and utility. The issue with Confusion is it absolutely requires the player affected to deal with it first, before escaping, healing, dodging, attacking, or retreating he -must- deal with confusion first. When confusion was hitting for 1k damage this was still the case, you still had to handle confusion … but there was a middle ground, you could pay the tax and perform another action. It was still costly, it just wasn’t crushing as it is now.

I’m still of the mind that confusion damage was inadvertently buffed and will be nerfed with an “oops we didn’t mean to do that, you guys are silly if you think that was balanced” message.

If confusion hits for 1k, you would have to spam like 20 skills in under 5 seconds to die from it.

That is a useless condition.
Why would anyone waste their Condition Removal dealing with something that will probably not even do 10% damage to their health before it expires?

The people calling for confusion nerfs don’t seem to realize that it is a VERY SHORT condition effect. There are zero classes with zero builds that are able to maintain 10+ stacks of confusion for an entire fight.

And let’s be honest,
If you are dying to anything less than 10 stacks of confusion, you are doing something very wrong and you are, unfortunately, the type of player that confusion is meant to kill.

You can attempt to justify that confusion shouldn’t kill you all you want, but you’re wrong and you know it.

One thing to add to my earlier post on page 1, I do enjoy the mini game between d/d eles and mesmers when it comes to applying and removing conditions. When the mesmer can apply vs when the ele can remove via attunement cycling etc. (depending on how traited of course… cantrips)

EnRohbi.2187:

If confusion hits for 1k, you would have to spam like 20 skills in under 5 seconds to die from it.

On the bright side of things …if they only used one ability while confused every 3 seconds, it would still do more damage than a burn.

covenn.7165:

EnRohbi.2187:

If confusion hits for 1k, you would have to spam like 20 skills in under 5 seconds to die from it.

On the bright side of things …if they only used one ability while confused every 3 seconds, it would still do more damage than a burn.

Truth spoken here.
But burns are far easier to apply and, for a class like a Guardian, can pretty much keep an opponent Burning 100% of an entire fight, regardless of how long that fight is.

If I could keep 100% uptime on Confusion I would have no problem with a damage reduction. But the uptime on any noticeable amount of confusion is probably more like… 2% of the fight, if it’s a quick one.

EnRohbi.2187:

Smitten.3076:

EnRohbi.2187:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

So what?
You want to nerf confusion damage and make it so the condition means nothing?

If it doesn’t do so much damage that you have to take action to remove it, it would be completely pointless to apply it. The point of the condition is to do enough damage that the person has to react. Not so that you have confusion on you but just keep mashing your skill buttons and don’t die.

It’s a punishment condition, not a dot condition.

The reason a condition that limits action taken should do 3-5,000 damage is because the damage is HOW it limits action taken. If you lower that, you remove the purpose of using confusion. Which I can tell you, is nearly worthless in sPvP except, like in wvw, when used against bad players. And even then, they have to REALLY not be paying attention before it actually does anything to them.

I’m going to use you as an example, sorry in advance, it’s not personal.

WHY do you people who immediately jump on the “don’t nerf me bro” bandwagon always instantly assume calls for nerf imply we want the -whatever- made useless? Why is this a staple of every bloody argument in response? No one ever stated they wanted it useless, we stated it needs to be nerfed. There is a world of difference between the two implications, confusion needs to be brought in line with current WvW balance. It’s to strong of a force multiplier, it’s to strong of a condition. You can attempt to justify it all you like, but you’re wrong and you know it.

Confusion :
-Force Cleanse
or
-Force Inactivity
otherwise
-Damage ( Sometimes in excess of 3-5k)

Compare that to every other condition in the game; confusion wins in damage and utility. The issue with Confusion is it absolutely requires the player affected to deal with it first, before escaping, healing, dodging, attacking, or retreating he -must- deal with confusion first. When confusion was hitting for 1k damage this was still the case, you still had to handle confusion … but there was a middle ground, you could pay the tax and perform another action. It was still costly, it just wasn’t crushing as it is now.

I’m still of the mind that confusion damage was inadvertently buffed and will be nerfed with an “oops we didn’t mean to do that, you guys are silly if you think that was balanced” message.

If confusion hits for 1k, you would have to spam like 20 skills in under 5 seconds to die from it.

That is a useless condition.
Why would anyone waste their Condition Removal dealing with something that will probably not even do 10% damage to their health before it expires?

The people calling for confusion nerfs don’t seem to realize that it is a VERY SHORT condition effect. There are zero classes with zero builds that are able to maintain 10+ stacks of confusion for an entire fight.

And let’s be honest,
If you are dying to anything less than 10 stacks of confusion, you are doing something very wrong and you are, unfortunately, the type of player that confusion is meant to kill.

You can attempt to justify that confusion shouldn’t kill you all you want, but you’re wrong and you know it.

Its pretty obvious that you aren’t putting all your traits/stats/utilities into applying conditions. Confusion hits way harder than that on most of these condition speced mesmers. Or maybe you are talking about 1 stack of confusion, and not the 3+ that I usually have on me throughout combat. I can’t tell if you’re trolling or not…pretty sure u are.

Duel is still on DB? Thought you guys were tsym groupies

Smitten.3076:

Dhampyr.2104:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

Every other condition’s ticks are guaranteed to happen unless cleansed. ONLY with confusion does a target have more options. Condition removal down? Just quit spamming buttons and take zero dmg. Give me another burn so I can kill good players as well as the bad ones (something that is hard to do with confusion), and I’ll gladly quit arguing.

If you think taking no action is an “option” in a WvW fight, then there’s really no point in me discussing anything with you.

You’re right. There’s no point, you don’t get it. A stun forces you to take no action. So does a fear. A knockback takes control of your toon away. With confusion, you have options. You can still do things, you just have to choose. So it’s not even as strong as a stun.

And, to say it again, 3-5k ticks are NOT the norm, even when specced/geared for it.

Dhampyr.2104:

Smitten.3076:

Dhampyr.2104:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

Every other condition’s ticks are guaranteed to happen unless cleansed. ONLY with confusion does a target have more options. Condition removal down? Just quit spamming buttons and take zero dmg. Give me another burn so I can kill good players as well as the bad ones (something that is hard to do with confusion), and I’ll gladly quit arguing.

If you think taking no action is an “option” in a WvW fight, then there’s really no point in me discussing anything with you.

You’re right. There’s no point, you don’t get it. A stun forces you to take no action. So does a fear. A knockback takes control of your toon away. With confusion, you have options. You can still do things, you just have to choose. So it’s not even as strong as a stun.

And, to say it again, 3-5k ticks are NOT the norm, even when specced/geared for it.

Your confusion stack combo isn’t hitting for that? L2P situation obviously

Dynnen.6405:

Its pretty obvious that you aren’t putting all your traits/stats/utilities into applying conditions. Confusion hits way harder than that on most of these condition speced mesmers. Or maybe you are talking about 1 stack of confusion, and not the 3+ that I usually have on me throughout combat. I can’t tell if you’re trolling or not…pretty sure u are.

Duel is still on DB? Thought you guys were tsym groupies

I should hope it’s obvious, I said like two posts ago in this very thread that I am not a condition mesmer

As others have pointed out though, when Mesmers do build for condition, confusion is about the only real damage source they have, and they have only limited ways to apply a meaningful amount of it too.

Anything less than 10 stacks of confusion will not kill you unless you make big mistakes or are low on HP when they’re applied. I can tell you both from experience playing with condition builds and experience fighting Confusion mesmers. 3-5 stacks of confusion is a nuissance, at best.

And yeah, Duel is still on DB.
TSym left in like September and we were pretty determined to not follow them.
I don’t know how much I’d use the word “Groupie”, TSym is a good wvw guild and was also a good wvw guild before they left for SoS, but I don’t think any of us would have transfered servers just to go with Coron.

If you look at confusion as a stun where you shouldn’t do anything then mesmer / engineer is able to perma stun you. Mesmer would infact be able to AoE stun a whole group of enemies and you call that balanced?

Also the elementalist argument is invalid. We all know Eles have an ridiculous amount of condition cleansers. I personally play condition engineer and lately alot of condition necromancer and i have a hard time with eles too, even without confusion. Try to argue about this with another prof viewpoint. Alot of profs have less to almost no conditionremovals if they don’t heavily trait for it. And since we can get some ridiculous high condition duration in WvW mesmers can maintain 5+ stacks of confusion all the time.

I killed a hasted glasscannon thief in less then 1 second with my confusion bomb + #3 pistol skill on engi and thats just 8 stacks of confusion.
Try using confusion on an elementalist using tornado (or underwater whirlpool). They get like 5 ticks in 1 second. Thats an instant kill, even if you aren’t using condition gear.
Or how do you justify a 100 nades engineer getting hit 4 times with confusion for his only avaiable condition cleanser (which has a possibility to cleanse the wrong condition but confusion)?

There are lot’s of other examples why confusion needs a rework. And don’t tell me mesmers would be rendered useless. I personally play a hybrid mesmer (similar to Countless sPvP build) and I can keep up 10+ stacks bleeding, 4-8 stacks confusion and still do decent direct dmg. Most enemies die to my normal mind wrack combo allready. If they are still alive my confusion + bleeds will give them the rest.

silvershadez.8421:

Also the elementalist argument is invalid. We all know Eles have an ridiculous amount of condition cleansers. I personally play condition engineer and lately alot of condition necromancer and i have a hard time with eles too, even without confusion. Try to argue about this with another prof viewpoint. Alot of profs have less to almost no conditionremovals if they don’t heavily trait for it. And since we can get some ridiculous high condition duration in WvW mesmers can maintain 5+ stacks of confusion all the time.

-A guardian can easily cure conditions from their heal and weapons as well and has many light combo fields which cure (combo fields are powerful but few people use them).
-A necro can cure conditions or send them to an opponent or convert them into buffs. Their heal is better with more conditions.
-An engineer can use elixir gun which has the 5 ability which cures conditions, toss elixir r, elixir c to convert conditions and toss elixir c to cure, antidotes from med kit or healing turret. Super elixir, toss elixir r and u also make light fields which cure conditions. They also can use elixir gun to cure allies, and their toss skills listed cure allies as well.

On top of that 1 of any of the 4 can cure an allies easily as well, if you work together.

Untraited the ele/engineer/necro/guardian have the best and most access to cures. If you trait these become even better at curing but untraited they are very strong already. The other professions have access to cures but are a bit more limited outside of specing, eating or gearing, which is a weakness of the more offensive classes of mesmer/thief/ranger/warrior. But even those all have utilities that can cure and some even have condition removal built into their heals.

There is also food, runes and sigils that reduce condition duration/transfer conditions/remove conditions which everyone has access to.

i dont think OP and his said 2 followers arent going to change their mind anytime soon.

Look as much as i hate guardians and how they can tank up to 3-5players easy if they’re good, for a good 30seconds, i have learned to adapt and when to throw burst skills on them rending them useless, they will still be up for around 30seconds but i can WAIT until they use their heal. But i wouldn’t go on a cry about nerfing guardians, because about 90% of guardians are played this way, i just adapt their playstyle and did something that was harder for them to counter and this justifies why mesmers should be nerf? because i did a build that renders you weaker than you want?

Oozo.7856:

I specifically asked it that way to avoid the technicality argument. He replied: “necro, warrior, engineer, ranger” – two of which do not have a higher health pool than the mesmer.

Right. You challenged what he said, then you changed the question to imply he said something he didn’t say instead of actually addressing what’s actually being discussed. You’ve dodged the issue over and over again.

If you insist that confusion should be sustained damage, you miss the whole point of the condition which is that it’s one of those things that forces you as a player to change what you’re doing. It’s a very effective way of breaking up PvE-type play in PvP where someone’s habit is to just run at mobs at drop their combo, run condition cleanse and stun break when necessary, and otherwise ignore what the other player is doing. This is why confusion should apply its damage when players use heals and cleanses. High stacks disappear very quickly, waiting it out is somewhere between the equivalent of getting a long daze/stun placed on you. The difference is that you’re more likely to get an ally’s cleanse than an ally’s stun break.

If you are getting such high stacks of confusion on you in a fight that you can’t even give yourself a cleanse, that means you’ve let the mesmer lay down a combo on you that for another class might mean you should already be downed. Read your enemies better, if you can’t manage that have a second guy running condition removal. If someone hits you with a lot of confusion, will it hurt when you also get focused? Yes, but it’s the same as targeting any vulnerable player.

silvershadez:

Glass cannon thieves can and will die to everything and anything.
If the ele issue is one of confusion giving a proc when it shouldn’t, that’s something that should be addressed.
The engineer build sounds weak to me. But the best answer for them if they take a large confusion stack, which everyone has already stated, is to wait out the couple of seconds it takes to disappear.

Anyone who runs without condition removal, or runs a glass cannon build, or brings no stun breakers, is always running the risk of getting destroyed. Don’t know who you’re playing against that you can keep up 4-8 confusion stacks and 10+ bleeds, sounds like a PvE mob to me. Also not sure if you noticed, but there are skills that are actually AoE stuns.