Guild Wars 2

Iruwen.3164:

Bleed can tick for more than 4000dps, how is that “manageable” with limited conditon removal? Last time I checked, that also killed you when healing, dodging and attacking. And also when taking cover or just standing there.

Having Poison, Burning, and 10+ stacks of bleeding is a nightmare for a Mesmer that just blew his Null field on some unsuspecting foe.

Well they got culling/haste fixed….Confusion was next, after that I am guessing the nerf-dogs next target will be backstab thieves…People just won’t be happy until they whine enough to get FAILNET to come in and save their bad playing selves….IF confusion is killing you then, you fail, plain and simple….Now sometimes you get stuck with confusion and cant just run away, sucks don’t it…Sometimes I get stuck with 10 stacks of bleed and cleanse/heals both on CD, that sucks for me and sometimes I die.

I want that nerfed, in fact I want it nerfed to where no one dies, no one even goes down. We can just run around and do no dmg to each other and all get participation trophies at the end of the week.

To the people whining about confusion, I say this: go back to the games you came from.

Because Confusion = Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Backfire, etc from GW1….People all dealt with them, and the hilarious bads like you whined then too.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Well they got culling/haste fixed….Confusion was next, after that I am guessing the nerf-dogs next target will be backstab thieves…People just won’t be happy until they whine enough to get FAILNET to come in and save their bad playing selves….IF confusion is killing you then, you fail, plain and simple….Now sometimes you get stuck with confusion and cant just run away, sucks don’t it…Sometimes I get stuck with 10 stacks of bleed and cleanse/heals both on CD, that sucks for me and sometimes I die.

I want that nerfed, in fact I want it nerfed to where no one dies, no one even goes down. We can just run around and do no dmg to each other and all get participation trophies at the end of the week.

To the people whining about confusion, I say this: go back to the games you came from.

Because Confusion = Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Backfire, etc from GW1….People all dealt with them, and the hilarious bads like you whined then too.

This is not correct, and if you really do believe this then I don’t think you played GW1 very extensively.

Iruwen.3164:

Yeah I know, who needs facts when you have an opinion.

Again, theory crafting is absolutely not facts.

I could say that, since X weapon has 90% accuracy, and since weapon Y has 80% accuracy, in a fight between the two weapons, weapon X will always win. This is not correct.

When people say that “well, he should have paid mind to the purple circles around his ally in the corner of his screen while he was busy dealing with the necro and in the middle of a cast and trying to stay alive” it’s just not credible at all.

There are many variables outside of what people conceive on this forum that have a huge effect on how fights play out.

(In reality I think people are just playing ignorant in a futile attempt to not have their precious confusion nerfed. A futile attempt because it’s pretty much set in stone that I will be nerfed).

Oh hai, people are still saying confusion is balanced in here? Sweet grabs popcorn

Gab Superstar.4059:

This is not correct, and if you really do believe this then I don’t think you played GW1 very extensively.

Iruwen.3164:

Yeah I know, who needs facts when you have an opinion.

Again, theory crafting is absolutely not facts.

I could say that, since X weapon has 90% accuracy, and since weapon Y has 80% accuracy, in a fight between the two weapons, weapon X will always win. This is not correct.

When people say that “well, he should have paid mind to the purple circles around his ally in the corner of his screen while he was busy dealing with the necro and in the middle of a cast and trying to stay alive” it’s just not credible at all.

There are many variables outside of what people conceive on this forum that have a huge effect on how fights play out.

(In reality I think people are just playing ignorant in a futile attempt to not have their precious confusion nerfed. A futile attempt because it’s pretty much set in stone that I will be nerfed).

First off I played GW1 VERY extensively….Extensively enough to know that Confusion is most like Spiteful Spirit, in that it damages from attacks and skill activation…So many people whined about it that after years ANET finally did nerf it to my recollection. Empathy dmged you on attacks, and Backfire on spell activation. Depending on the enemy I (Mesmer/Necro) would take Wreckless Haste (Factions) and mix in a little Price of Failure, and it would do one of two things: 75% of the time nubs died, 25% of the time smarts would run away. Why? Because of the reasons we have outlined in this thread: that if you build for this trait, you likely can’t do enough DPS to overcome a player that just runs away.

The problem with you L2P people is that you think that you should always be able to beat anyone, anytime in a 1v1 and that’s just simply not the case. But FAILNET will come in and bail your sorry butts out every chance they get because the “squeaky wheel gets the grease”…Where in reality you should just learn to run away sometimes and chalk it up to a build you cant beat, or (le gasp) find a way to win (L2P).

To speak to your last line, I think thieves are tired of running checked in WvW, and are hoping that this solves that…Sprinkle in the bads that are spamming 1 with 10 stacks of confusion, and voila you have this thread….Well I hate to break the bad news to you, but I took my mes (one of 5 geared toons I have) into sPVP they other day…And I pretty much had my way in there like I do in WvW, so I could worry less about this “nerf” if sPV kitten upposedly underpowered….Worst case scenario I will have to wait 30 more seconds to make up for the DPS loss for you to kill yourselves with your auto attack spamzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Gab Superstar.4059:

This is not correct, and if you really do believe this then I don’t think you played GW1 very extensively.

Iruwen.3164:

Yeah I know, who needs facts when you have an opinion.

Again, theory crafting is absolutely not facts.

I could say that, since X weapon has 90% accuracy, and since weapon Y has 80% accuracy, in a fight between the two weapons, weapon X will always win. This is not correct.

When people say that “well, he should have paid mind to the purple circles around his ally in the corner of his screen while he was busy dealing with the necro and in the middle of a cast and trying to stay alive” it’s just not credible at all.

There are many variables outside of what people conceive on this forum that have a huge effect on how fights play out.

(In reality I think people are just playing ignorant in a futile attempt to not have their precious confusion nerfed. A futile attempt because it’s pretty much set in stone that I will be nerfed).

First off I played GW1 VERY extensively….Extensively enough to know that Confusion is most like Spiteful Spirit, in that it damages from attacks and skill activation…So many people whined about it that after years ANET finally did nerf it to my recollection. Empathy dmged you on attacks, and Backfire on spell activation. Depending on the enemy I (Mesmer/Necro) would take Wreckless Haste (Factions) and mix in a little Price of Failure, and it would do one of two things: 75% of the time nubs died, 25% of the time smarts would run away. Why? Because of the reasons we have outlined in this thread: that if you build for this trait, you likely can’t do enough DPS to overcome a player that just runs away.

Here we go…

If I told you there is a skill in GW1 that

• Removes 8 conditions and 8 hexes (basically everything, for those who didn’t play GW1)
• Usable on any ally within ~900 range
• Has a quarter second cast time
• Costs next to nothing
• Heals the target for ~10% of his / her base HP as well.

Would you be able to list a similar skill in GW2? You won’t. And this is why I don’t believe you played GW1 extensively. Trying to justify GW2 mechanics by comparing them to GW1 mechanics is not possible, because of how different the combat systems were.

Gab Superstar.4059:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Well they got culling/haste fixed….Confusion was next, after that I am guessing the nerf-dogs next target will be backstab thieves…People just won’t be happy until they whine enough to get FAILNET to come in and save their bad playing selves….IF confusion is killing you then, you fail, plain and simple….Now sometimes you get stuck with confusion and cant just run away, sucks don’t it…Sometimes I get stuck with 10 stacks of bleed and cleanse/heals both on CD, that sucks for me and sometimes I die.

I want that nerfed, in fact I want it nerfed to where no one dies, no one even goes down. We can just run around and do no dmg to each other and all get participation trophies at the end of the week.

To the people whining about confusion, I say this: go back to the games you came from.

Because Confusion = Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Backfire, etc from GW1….People all dealt with them, and the hilarious bads like you whined then too.

This is not correct, and if you really do believe this then I don’t think you played GW1 very extensively.

Iruwen.3164:

Yeah I know, who needs facts when you have an opinion.

Again, theory crafting is absolutely not facts.

I could say that, since X weapon has 90% accuracy, and since weapon Y has 80% accuracy, in a fight between the two weapons, weapon X will always win. This is not correct.

When people say that “well, he should have paid mind to the purple circles around his ally in the corner of his screen while he was busy dealing with the necro and in the middle of a cast and trying to stay alive” it’s just not credible at all.

There are many variables outside of what people conceive on this forum that have a huge effect on how fights play out.

(In reality I think people are just playing ignorant in a futile attempt to not have their precious confusion nerfed. A futile attempt because it’s pretty much set in stone that I will be nerfed).

I have never died to confusion. I could care less if it is nerfed because I will just go back to shatter spec, which I may do anyway because this glamour build is a gimmick spec and only works well in certain situations. I have twice the survivability and damage potential in a shatter/phantasm spec. It was fun to play with glamour in WvW but it is no better than anything else. I feel more useful on my necro anyway. I see a lot of well necroes around too, maybe they need a nerf too.

Gab Superstar.4059:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Well they got culling/haste fixed….Confusion was next, after that I am guessing the nerf-dogs next target will be backstab thieves…People just won’t be happy until they whine enough to get FAILNET to come in and save their bad playing selves….IF confusion is killing you then, you fail, plain and simple….Now sometimes you get stuck with confusion and cant just run away, sucks don’t it…Sometimes I get stuck with 10 stacks of bleed and cleanse/heals both on CD, that sucks for me and sometimes I die.

I want that nerfed, in fact I want it nerfed to where no one dies, no one even goes down. We can just run around and do no dmg to each other and all get participation trophies at the end of the week.

To the people whining about confusion, I say this: go back to the games you came from.

Because Confusion = Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Backfire, etc from GW1….People all dealt with them, and the hilarious bads like you whined then too.

This is not correct, and if you really do believe this then I don’t think you played GW1 very extensively.

Iruwen.3164:

Yeah I know, who needs facts when you have an opinion.

Again, theory crafting is absolutely not facts.

I could say that, since X weapon has 90% accuracy, and since weapon Y has 80% accuracy, in a fight between the two weapons, weapon X will always win. This is not correct.

When people say that “well, he should have paid mind to the purple circles around his ally in the corner of his screen while he was busy dealing with the necro and in the middle of a cast and trying to stay alive” it’s just not credible at all.

There are many variables outside of what people conceive on this forum that have a huge effect on how fights play out.

(In reality I think people are just playing ignorant in a futile attempt to not have their precious confusion nerfed. A futile attempt because it’s pretty much set in stone that I will be nerfed).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Confusion-bugged-overpowered-all-Condis/page/2#post1706550
O rly? And yeah, just because we don’t want something nerfed that doesn’t need to be nerfed, that means it’s op, naturally. Straight logic.

That doesn’t mean I’m all against balancing btw. Confusing enchantments should be taken care of because it allows for area denial without an AE cap as far as I’m aware. Pry bar is really strong in 1vs1 since unlike confusing images, it cannot really be avoided. And one could think about reducing the general base duration to 3s instead of 5s for some skills. But nerfing it in general would simply make it useless, especially since mesmers aren’t really good at stacking other conditions reliably.

Iruwen.3164:

Gab Superstar.4059:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Well they got culling/haste fixed….Confusion was next, after that I am guessing the nerf-dogs next target will be backstab thieves…People just won’t be happy until they whine enough to get FAILNET to come in and save their bad playing selves….IF confusion is killing you then, you fail, plain and simple….Now sometimes you get stuck with confusion and cant just run away, sucks don’t it…Sometimes I get stuck with 10 stacks of bleed and cleanse/heals both on CD, that sucks for me and sometimes I die.

I want that nerfed, in fact I want it nerfed to where no one dies, no one even goes down. We can just run around and do no dmg to each other and all get participation trophies at the end of the week.

To the people whining about confusion, I say this: go back to the games you came from.

Because Confusion = Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Backfire, etc from GW1….People all dealt with them, and the hilarious bads like you whined then too.

This is not correct, and if you really do believe this then I don’t think you played GW1 very extensively.

Iruwen.3164:

Yeah I know, who needs facts when you have an opinion.

Again, theory crafting is absolutely not facts.

I could say that, since X weapon has 90% accuracy, and since weapon Y has 80% accuracy, in a fight between the two weapons, weapon X will always win. This is not correct.

When people say that “well, he should have paid mind to the purple circles around his ally in the corner of his screen while he was busy dealing with the necro and in the middle of a cast and trying to stay alive” it’s just not credible at all.

There are many variables outside of what people conceive on this forum that have a huge effect on how fights play out.

(In reality I think people are just playing ignorant in a futile attempt to not have their precious confusion nerfed. A futile attempt because it’s pretty much set in stone that I will be nerfed).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Confusion-bugged-overpowered-all-Condis/page/2#post1706550
O rly? And yeah, just because we don’t want something nerfed that doesn’t need to be nerfed, that means it’s op, naturally. Straight logic.

That doesn’t mean I’m all against balancing btw. Confusing enchantments should be taken care of because it allows for area denial without an AE cap as far as I’m aware. Pry bar is really strong in 1vs1 since unlike confusing images, it cannot really be avoided. And one could think about reducing the general base duration to 3s instead of 5s for some skills. But nerfing it in general would simply make it useless, especially since mesmers aren’t really good at stacking other conditions reliably.

I’ll see your 26/3 sPvP forum post that only states the blatant fact that confusion has not been changed in sPvP at all, and raise you a 10/4 forum post saying that skills will now be split between the various parts of the game. Much like… Hmm… What was that thing that was changed in PvE / WvW but not sPvP? Let me think…

Oh that’s right. Confusion.

Heh.

Straegen.2938:

Oozo.7856:

On the other hand, reasonable people, like you and me, actually post video evidence of how only bad people die to confusion (which is the weakest of all of the conditions, BTW).

Burning, poison, bleeding, etc are all manageable because their damage is mostly predicable. Confusion runs from meh to holy hell what just reeled off 5k of my health. This can be particularly problematic for classes with very limited condition removal.

At most a mesmer is going to stack two conditions on you very frequently ( and by frequently I mean they will have around an 80% up time if your really bad).. bleeding and confusion.

If you are on a character that cant handle TWO conditions..
ANY OTHER CONDITION TYPE BUILD.
Is going to kill you often, and frequently.
Mesmers can do it faster if your bad.
So is confusion the problem or just the bad player..because also keep in mind…a full condition build is not going to have direct shatter damage like the GC mesmers do.

mesmers also have the one of the lowest mobility rates in combat..
So, why are you letting confusion stack?
What are you doing when you see THREE clones run at you?
What are you doing when you see a PURPLE BEAM? ( which btw has the slowest wind up of any of the mesmer skills)
Why are you walking in and out of glamours?

When it does land on my characters it can prevent healing, dodging and attacking. Also confusion can be a big game changer in large scale fights allowing one side to break through.

Roll a guardian, ele, theif, necro, or engi if confusion is giving you trouble.

Ultimately no other condition can pull this off and no other condition has such a limited pool of classes that can apply it.

No other condition is also negated entirely when you stop attacking.
Again..
If you are on a character that cant handle conditions.
They will kill you..
Its not rocket science, its not really a hard concept to grasp.
If conditions give you trouble, you need to either

A. Get better and learn the tells, come up with an exit strat, or
B. Get more condition removal OR
C. REROLL to a class that can actually handle conditions.

To add.
To the people that are complaining about confusion triggering on dodge rolling..
I agree..That it SHOULD NOT be able to do damage because you have a trait that cast a spell on dodge.
That should be fixed..

Ruprect.7260:

Gab Superstar.4059:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Well they got culling/haste fixed….Confusion was next, after that I am guessing the nerf-dogs next target will be backstab thieves…People just won’t be happy until they whine enough to get FAILNET to come in and save their bad playing selves….IF confusion is killing you then, you fail, plain and simple….Now sometimes you get stuck with confusion and cant just run away, sucks don’t it…Sometimes I get stuck with 10 stacks of bleed and cleanse/heals both on CD, that sucks for me and sometimes I die.

I want that nerfed, in fact I want it nerfed to where no one dies, no one even goes down. We can just run around and do no dmg to each other and all get participation trophies at the end of the week.

To the people whining about confusion, I say this: go back to the games you came from.

Because Confusion = Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Backfire, etc from GW1….People all dealt with them, and the hilarious bads like you whined then too.

This is not correct, and if you really do believe this then I don’t think you played GW1 very extensively.

Iruwen.3164:

Yeah I know, who needs facts when you have an opinion.

Again, theory crafting is absolutely not facts.

I could say that, since X weapon has 90% accuracy, and since weapon Y has 80% accuracy, in a fight between the two weapons, weapon X will always win. This is not correct.

When people say that “well, he should have paid mind to the purple circles around his ally in the corner of his screen while he was busy dealing with the necro and in the middle of a cast and trying to stay alive” it’s just not credible at all.

There are many variables outside of what people conceive on this forum that have a huge effect on how fights play out.

(In reality I think people are just playing ignorant in a futile attempt to not have their precious confusion nerfed. A futile attempt because it’s pretty much set in stone that I will be nerfed).

I have never died to confusion. I could care less if it is nerfed because I will just go back to shatter spec, which I may do anyway because this glamour build is a gimmick spec and only works well in certain situations. I have twice the survivability and damage potential in a shatter/phantasm spec. It was fun to play with glamour in WvW but it is no better than anything else. I feel more useful on my necro anyway. I see a lot of well necroes around too, maybe they need a nerf too.

I sort of feel the same way. My Glam build only works right now because people seem unused to dealing with confusion and because people are rolling in zergs. Outside of using glamours at choke points or on top of contested spots, the build doesn’t really do much damage.

It’s only a build that’s working due to culling being fixed and the change to beam attacks. Once people adjust, I am not sure it will continue to be as viable as it is, and its viability is limited as is now. Shatter Mesmers are much better for chaos squads and sneaking around. Phantasm Mesmers are good all-around, and if coupled with reflect traits, works well against a zerg like the Glam Mes does.

Gab Superstar.4059:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Gab Superstar.4059:

This is not correct, and if you really do believe this then I don’t think you played GW1 very extensively.

Iruwen.3164:

Yeah I know, who needs facts when you have an opinion.

Again, theory crafting is absolutely not facts.

I could say that, since X weapon has 90% accuracy, and since weapon Y has 80% accuracy, in a fight between the two weapons, weapon X will always win. This is not correct.

When people say that “well, he should have paid mind to the purple circles around his ally in the corner of his screen while he was busy dealing with the necro and in the middle of a cast and trying to stay alive” it’s just not credible at all.

There are many variables outside of what people conceive on this forum that have a huge effect on how fights play out.

(In reality I think people are just playing ignorant in a futile attempt to not have their precious confusion nerfed. A futile attempt because it’s pretty much set in stone that I will be nerfed).

First off I played GW1 VERY extensively….Extensively enough to know that Confusion is most like Spiteful Spirit, in that it damages from attacks and skill activation…So many people whined about it that after years ANET finally did nerf it to my recollection. Empathy dmged you on attacks, and Backfire on spell activation. Depending on the enemy I (Mesmer/Necro) would take Wreckless Haste (Factions) and mix in a little Price of Failure, and it would do one of two things: 75% of the time nubs died, 25% of the time smarts would run away. Why? Because of the reasons we have outlined in this thread: that if you build for this trait, you likely can’t do enough DPS to overcome a player that just runs away.

Here we go…

If I told you there is a skill in GW1 that

• Removes 8 conditions and 8 hexes (basically everything, for those who didn’t play GW1)
• Usable on any ally within ~900 range
• Has a quarter second cast time
• Costs next to nothing
• Heals the target for ~10% of his / her base HP as well.

Would you be able to list a similar skill in GW2? You won’t. And this is why I don’t believe you played GW1 extensively. Trying to justify GW2 mechanics by comparing them to GW1 mechanics is not possible, because of how different the combat systems were.

You are applying the logic that 1-2 skills on one class (Monk from what I remember only) justified them in GW1 but not GW2?

WTF does that even have to do with this conversation? By that I mean your “terms” above, you want me to start naming Contemplation of Purity or something from GW1? You want me to QQ to anet for not making a skill that has YOUR terms listed?

Truth is there are those skills, that are similar, sure they do not meet all of YOUR criteria. Save Yourselves coupled with Contemplation of Purity comes to mind…Also the necro heal skill http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Conditions, other builds/professions have trait line items that can take care of conditions. Like my warrior, you can trait (name escapes me) for it to use the “Shake it Off” skill, and then turn around and manually still use “Shake it Off”, if you have the soldiers runes you can pretty much stay condition free….

At the end of the day you can lob all of the elitist: I played moar GW1 kitten you want at me, but confusion only kills people that are too dumb to avoid attacking and spamming….You cannot kill someone with confusion alone, they have to kill themselves. That is a fact jack!

Where as a nub thief (and yes I have one) can just pretty much spam HS and get 8k crits on people with 3k armor, which is truly a broken mechanic.

Ruprect.7260:

I have never died to confusion. I could care less if it is nerfed because I will just go back to shatter spec, which I may do anyway because this glamour build is a gimmick spec and only works well in certain situations. I have twice the survivability and damage potential in a shatter/phantasm spec. It was fun to play with glamour in WvW but it is no better than anything else. I feel more useful on my necro anyway. I see a lot of well necroes around too, maybe they need a nerf too.

If the Wells have the potential do inflict damage, then yes, expect the nerf.

Damage and Death = e-tears.

Given the sensitive nature of WvW and player vs player in general. You may want to pick up the new Sims. Although in thinking about it, Sims can be cliquey and you might be subject to cyber bullying thus more e-tears. You’d be best served turning off your computer and never looking back.

Best of luck to you.

Oozo.7856:

Iruwen.3164:

How about actually providing some arguments instead of just being sarcastic and aggressive all the time. Everytime somebody posts some actual facts, it’s being silently ignored by those claiming that confusion is op and there’s no counter.

Wow, why are you attacking me? I’m with you now that I can put out some confusion damage myself! All the people who have died to my confusion are superbads. I never realized this until I was able to apply confusion myself.

Like the Chumpion Slayer guardian in the clip below. I mean, dodge rolling when you have 5 stacks of confusion on you? LOL! What a stupid bad…

http://youtu.be/QGJFQ2uy6yA?t=40s

I know right, what a stupid baddie, dodging and all.

King Amadaeus.8619:

blah

So now you resort to calling me a nab and insinuating that I am a moron? SS might behave like confusion, but the amount of ways you can remove SS is 100x higher than the amount of ways you can remove confusion (this is not a made up number).

Unless you can convince me otherwise with some awesome arguments in your next post I am done trying to reason with you.

Gab Superstar.4059:

King Amadaeus.8619:

blah

So now you resort to calling me a nab and insinuating that I am a moron? SS might behave like confusion, but the amount of ways you can remove SS is 100x higher than the amount of ways you can remove confusion (this is not a made up number).

Unless you can convince me otherwise with some awesome arguments in your next post I am done trying to reason with you.

I did not insinuate anything? I flat out just asked if you were, did not call you a name etc…I just wanted to make sure I was not insulting someone with a learning disability.

Because if I hand you a gun and you blow your brains out, then its not the guns fault. I wouldn’t wanna ban guns, I would wonder why you did that to yourself.

As a person who understands confusion I’m going to stop arguing with those who don’t now and just suggest maybe you all stick to costume brawl.

Straegen.2938:

Iruwen.3164:

Bleed can tick for more than 4000dps, how is that “manageable” with limited conditon removal? Last time I checked, that also killed you when healing, dodging and attacking. And also when taking cover or just standing there.

I suppose it is theoretically possible for 25 stacks of bleed with someone running +3000 condition damage to do that, but confusion in that same scenario would hit for nearly 3 times as much. That is 3x damage just to heal, dodge (in some cases) or activate something to remove it. Basically the player is completely shut down and probably dead since many people notice confusion after it damages them.

Confusion works far more like burning than bleeding and probably should stack in duration rather than intensity at least in PvX.

Bleeding: 0.05 * Condition Damage + 42.5
Confusion PvX: 0.15 * Condition Damage + 130
Confusion sPvP: 0.75 * Condition Damage + 65

Hmmm….

Meh, you even quoted the formulas yourself. You need 2500 condition damage, which is very doable for some classes.
Bleeding: (0.05 * 2500 + 42.5) * 25 = 4,187.5
Confusion: (0.15 * 2500 + 130) * 25 = 12,625
Difference is you can’t avoid bleeding, it has a much higher base duration and no cap afaik, it’s highly available and can be easily applied in large stacks. Five seconds should be enough for most people though.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleed
Confusion can be applied as AE, but only in small stacks. And it’s meant to shut down people, it’s what interrupts were for mesmers in GW1.

Gab Superstar.4059:

I’ll see your 26/3 sPvP forum post that only states the blatant fact that confusion has not been changed in sPvP at all

I also read that it’s supposed to hurt.

pot.6805:

I know right, what a stupid baddie, dodging and all.

Yeah, it’s not like people said countless times now that on dodge traits shouldn’t trigger confusion.

Gab Superstar.4059:

If someone actually has any good arguments that is not garbage theory crafting or comparisons with other games, then bring them forth. I am eager to hear them!

You guys always come up with unrealistic claims about confusion that are made up from thin air. Look at the numbers, conditions aren’t like direct damage that varies because of crits, armor and so on. If I have 2500 condition damage, it does 505 damage per stack, end of story. If you want to say something contructive, make a proposal to improve confusion without making it (and thus, condition builds for mesmers) useless.

Small changes:
- don’t trigger confusion on dodge
- change confusing enchantments so it doesn’t allow for area denial without a cap
- change pry bar so it’s not an instant five stacks of 5s confusion
- increase visibility of confusion indicator

Complete rework:
- change confusion so it doesn’t stack in intensity; increase base damage and maybe duration instead, but make it so that one stack wears off on skill use; that way you can cleanse, dodge or whatever without taking an instant 10k+ damage
- increase condition availability/reliability for mesmers so condition builds remain viable
That approach would actually also be very helpful in PvE.

Iruwen.3164:

Complete rework:
- change confusion so it doesn’t stack in intensity; increase base damage and maybe duration instead, but make it so that one stack wears off on skill use; that way you can cleanse, dodge or whatever without taking an instant 10k+ damage
- increase condition availability/reliability for mesmers so condition builds remain viable
That approach would actually also be very helpful in PvE.

This would actually be a good solution.

Perhaps double or triple its damage, then have someone take the full damage of one stack of confusion on ability use, which would then remove that one stack.

So for example, if you had 8 stacks of confusion on someone, that person would take ~1,500 damage per skill use for his / her next 8 abilities, making it ~12,000 damage total. It would still be powerful, but it would not have the same instagib power to it that got 100 ’nades nerfed.

Yep. That would also mean that one still has the choice to take the damage, remove the condition or wait until it’s gone, and it’s a real choice, unlike with really high stacks where it’s more of a live or die decision. Would also fix the problem of activating a skill the break of a second after several stacks of confusion have been applied. Still hurts, but not anywhere close to the devastating effect it would have now.

Most people in this thread are looking at confusion from a one on one situation for the most part.

One on one, confusion is just something to deal with. In large zerg wars confusion along with everything else going is can be a death trap. The main reason is quite simple. More and more I am seeing mesmers going for this spec because it effectively keeps the enemy from advancing too far especially at a choke point when you can’t run around or avoid it without giving up your entire position.

I personally do not have an issue with confusion per se. It is simply another thing to deal with just like invisible thieves, mobile elementalists, and righteous indignation.

I play 5 different characters in WvW and respect them frequently to deal with the various situations that arise.

Conditions cleansing is just like choosing to use a speed signet on your utility bar. If you have it it is useful, but you are giving up a great deal to do that. I like to have a cleanse on my Warrior as well but I also have to give up some very useful things to do that especially because the elite skills on a Warrior are not very well balanced in my opinion.

I am in agreement with what several others have already stated here; dodge skills should be immune to confusion effects entirely. Some classes do not have very many escapes to choose from while others have several. Dodge is the one mechanic that this game was build around as an equal for all classes. It should remain that way unless the player chooses to burn it on a skill or simply dodge.

In all fairness many of the players in WvW are casual players that do not always follow the meta/theory crafting/hardcore pvp trends. They just go out to have some fun and kill stuff mostly in a group. The might understand the individual skills at the level of the tool tip information but not how everything works together.

Some of these players might only play a couple of characters and maybe even only one. I learned how to kill thieves by playing one, same with necros, and guardians. Learning what they can do and how they do it is not always easy from inside the zerg point of view. Many players learn the counters from experience and often not until long after they have died to them many times.

The reason why tactics change over time is because sooner or later the player base learns to counter the latest game plans but the casual players are usually the last to adapt and the last to spec into the style because it takes them longer to put the pieces of the puzzle together without direct information.

I feel sorry for the commanders trying to keep the WvW pug trains running. The limitations of trying to communicate to a large group of players running very random builds and characters going up against a well organized guild running with Confusion/lines of warding/necro wells and walls is an extremely difficult task on the best of days.

These groups do not understand how to support one another very well because most of the time they are built to be individual players while playing in a group. I have been in a couple of guilds that are like this as well. Individually they are often great pvper, but as a group they are still a late stage Jenga tower and just one or two move away from toppling because there is a lack of unified support.

Confusion exploits those players. Anet will adjust it before risking a big piece of the player base from making an exodus from the big bad hardcore players pulling their wings off.

At the risk of backtracking…If I remember correctly one of the key issues from the OP was that confusion wasn’t a priority on cleanse.

Not pointing that at the OP, but it did get me thinking of the bigger picture again….You guys realize that at the end of the day we are talking about a “condition” that does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING unless you trigger it? I mean, I agree the proc on the dodge rolls traits is overboard, but this is likely a bug more than anything else, as the coding on the traited skill probably comes across as the same of a manually activated skill.

It is FAR likely that ANET even put Confusion as a low priority cleanse because of the fact that it is relatively harmless if recognized early on. Whereas poison, bleeds, etc, proc whether the player activates skills or not. So again, I would say that if I had a skill that removed 3 conditions, I would still want it to target Fire>Bleed>Poison even before confusion.

Again, not to beat a dead horse, but I can run away with 10 stacks of confusion on me and still take moderate amounts of DPS from a chasing player, however if I have 10 stacks of bleed and I am taking DPS from that same player the damage I incur would be much worse.

I think the problem is that people do not want to be handcuffed by confusion and more so, do not want to “retreat” from a fight, so they are arguing this thing to death in an attempt to be able to “cast through” confusion without penalty just as you could do with bleeds/fire/poison etc. Again, this is an issue to where people just do not understand the mechanic, or flatout like I just said: want it nerfed for personal gains.

The same exact thing happened in GW1 with lockdown/shutdown mesmers and again even then ANET had to intervene on the part of “squeaky wheels”, even though then just as now there were workarounds already built into the game.

The fact that it has been proven/stated in this thread that a few classes can iradicate/return confusion, and other can flatout cleanse it (shout warriors with soldiers runes for example) for the most part. Couple that with the posted stats showing that condition dmg affects it just the same as other conditions, and finally that it stacks accordingly when compared to other conditions (bleeds etc), should all be proof enough that it is fine as is.

I also want to add one more thing, if you think I am coming on here arguing because this is gonna kill my build, then you are mistaken. I was curious about that a few weeks back. So I even ventured into sPVP (like I said previously) and to be honest I noticed little difference. In fact, my shatter/confusion build seemed to be just about as effective in sPVP as it is in WvW. Now the glamour AoE stuff, maybe it will suffer but I do not run it so I couldn’t say.

My argument is more with the system of people jumping on forums like this, and QQing it up to the point where Mama ANET has to come in and do something about it….We have seen so many times, look at the current reset times for example. Enough EU people complained that it got changed, that is a separate issue but still goes to my point….People: grow a pair and stop coming on here QQing to try and get the game fit to your playstyle, just because you cannot handle something does not make it OP.

Just because class X cannot kill class Y 10 out of 10 times does not make class Y OP….You people will not be happy with a game until they create just one class, with one set of base skills, any variance within a game is seen as either being OP or UP (underpowered) to people like you.

I will say it again, nerf confusion all you want, I will still kill noobs that do not run away…It is a fact, then you will be back on here saying “confusion is still OP” but then you will have to find another “spin” to put on it.

Confusion was meant to be coupled with the fact that Mesmers do not always do great DPS, and those that do are so squishy the build is not viable in most WvW applications. Mesmers frustrate other players, and that is what they are supposed to do. We might not 1-shot you, but if you want to hang around and try us then you will get slowly killed while we just try to frustrate your day.

As I have said before, I can and have traited my warrior to apply confusion which can only be done with interrupts.

I can toss 3 utilities that when timed right add confusion along with I believe 2 hammer skills than can interrupt as well. If I pick up a rock to throw and it interrupts it will add confusion and I think, but not completely sure as yet that I can offer this up while using a catapult as well if it interrupts. This build really works best when the group is well organized and supporting one another though, without the support the condition wears off quickly and most players know well enough to not attack.

What can happen though is with multiple classes using this skill in bunches, and I am seeing much more of it recently as I see many more mesmers in WvW in general it feels like you are getting spammed with it even though it is just coming from multiple sources. This is more noticeable because it is much harder to just fight through it like many of us do with other conditions.

Mesmers seem to have become the new thieves, and confusion seems to be the favored trait because it renders the most powerful enemies useless for a few seconds at least and in some cases forces them to exit the fight.

I don’t think people would think it was OP, which it really isn’t, if it was not creating some difficulties in taking down the more organized guilds/zergs.

Running into several mesmers, an engineer, a couple of guardians and some necros all working to put up confusion, barriers/wards, and wells can very quickly make for a very powerful and frustrating group to fight against.

That mixture can make all those hunters, thieves, and casters in your zerg become useless fast.

Recently we ran into just such a group on our server. The commander at the time just could not find an effective way for us to deal with it. This does not mean to say it would be impossible, I believe that our whole pug would have to respec and change entirely in order to handle it, but that is not something a group can do on the fly.

My conclusion is that there is nothing wrong with the skill but allow people to dodge, or as the OP originally stated; allow us to select it as a primary condition to remove, especially when you have that plus several other conditions heaped on you during a sizable clash, which seems to happen quite often in WvW these days.

There could be some elegant solutions for bringing confusion and/or retaliation more into line with other damage sources (talking wvw here). The first thing that naturally comes to mind is diminishing returns for a critical mass of confusion stacks/retaliation sources, in which each additional stack/source would be less and less effective. This shouldn’t be problematic to solve on the programming side.
But I am afraid, instead of applying surgical precision to bring stuff in line there will be a hammer and anvil balancing.
Moving on.

CrassBippy.4619:

Ok so im sick of this, confusion needs to be changed so that condition removal targets it after bleeding. Unless Anets planned counter to it is sit there like an idiot and do nothing/have 3 remove all conditions. You can get 12+ stacks against a mesmer pretty easily, you want to leave them doin high dmg, ok. But it needs to be prioritized for us when we try to remove it.

God knows when i get 12 stacks of confusion, I Want to remove weakness

This is L2P.. if you honestly get 12 stacks of confusion you’re definitely doing something wrong. If it’s group fights and it’s getting stacked by different ppl then your groups need better condition removal. There’s plenty, eles and guards are the best at it.. necros are great… even rangers have healing spring… Unless you’re a warrior without shake it off, then I don’t know what to say.

My level 20 ele removes conditions like nothing and heals so well. Look in to -%condition duration. I fought a ranger from NSP (I believe OS guild) and he never stopped attacking with 6+ stacks of confusion… they were gone before his 4th attack and he regen quite a bit of health too so tbh, manging confusion is purely L2P

Straegen.2938:

Iruwen.3164:

Bleed can tick for more than 4000dps, how is that “manageable” with limited conditon removal? Last time I checked, that also killed you when healing, dodging and attacking. And also when taking cover or just standing there.

I suppose it is theoretically possible for 25 stacks of bleed with someone running +3000 condition damage to do that, but confusion in that same scenario would hit for nearly 3 times as much. That is 3x damage just to heal, dodge (in some cases) or activate something to remove it. Basically the player is completely shut down and probably dead since many people notice confusion after it damages them.

Confusion works far more like burning than bleeding and probably should stack in duration rather than intensity at least in PvX.

Bleeding: 0.05 * Condition Damage + 42.5
Confusion PvX: 0.15 * Condition Damage + 130
Confusion sPvP: 0.75 * Condition Damage + 65

Hmmm….

First off – confusion duration is the lowest of them all. Burn dmg if kept up regularly (guardians and eles) do way more dmg over time than confusion.

+3000 condition is not possible… don’t spew nonsense… 5 stacks of confusion at ~1600 condition does around 1400-1700 dmg per skill use and lasts a few seconds. If you don’t notice a big purple and pink swirl ticking off hp, then I have no advice for you. People really need to learn how to remove conditions. The ones most susceptible to conditions are mesmers btw. We have the least amount of condition removal on a standard build – while arcane thievery is great, we are trading up more useful utils in exchange. Null field is a good option and cure a condition when healing is the best one. Even a mesmer with only 1 heal skill can remove 2 conditions at best and three if traited (using mantra of recovery) if we don’t trait for it we cannot remove conditions unless we use null field – which can usually break a build – esp shatter builds. And honestly, I don’t see the problem with that, we’re the WORST at it but it’s the non-mesmers that whine the most lol.

Thieves normal heal removes burn bleed poison plus traited for any other condition every 3 seconds in stealth. Guardians and Eles are a joke when it comes to conditions, and not even worth mentioning, same with necros. Engineers do a good job as well – and even warriors have a great shot at it.

If there’s something that needs a truly legitimate nerf it’s stealth – to which there is NO counter to!

This is purely L2P and if confusion gets nerfed, I can tell you that mesmers already dont output enough dmg through bleed and the random burn that we do with staff. Everyone will start running shatter/phantasm builds. And guess what the next thread is going to be? ZOMG THAT MESMER HAD 100 CLONES UP 100% OF THE TIME AND KEPT SHATTERING ALL OVER ME UNTIL I GOT ROFLSTOMPED. NERF SHATTERS AND CLONES.

Be sensible.

Alchemist.3692:

ZOMG THAT MESMER HAD 100 CLONES UP 100% OF THE TIME AND KEPT SHATTERING ALL OVER ME UNTIL I GOT ROFLSTOMPED. NERF SHATTERS AND CLONES.

Be sensible.

I already get PMs asking me how I have 5-6 clones up at once lol….I think (ironically) what will actually come of this confusion nerf, is that people will really start QQing moar about the classes that are getting checked by confusion now….Meaning, lets call a spade a spade: there are a lot of thieves licking their chops/posting in this thread, because confusion slows them down…As one poster said: Mesmers are the natural predator of thieves and stop them from just running around unchecked.

But is it more than just thieves and wouldn’t be fair to place the spotlight on them….D/D eles, HB/Haste/Zerker warrs (yes for some reason they still exist), previously mentioned thieves, shatter mesmers even, and some ranger specs will be getting “nerf spotlight” real soon I bet. I know I personally target many of these classes when I see them as their builds can be hard to deal with for the average WvW player. So confusion usually slows them down enough to play at a speed that is more manageable. Like I said before, confusion didn’t hamper me in sPVP when I tried it, so I will hope that this remains true.

But I also fully expect to see more and more posts complaining about these and other builds more frequently soon after the confusion nerf.