Guild Wars 2

- Intro

WvW is often an information battle that can be rather opaque for some servers, guilds, or just weekend warriors. This thread is an idea thread meant to bring reduce the impact of WvW’s biggest barrier to entry which is a distinct lack of information.

The question on most players mind when entering a WvW map is: “Where is everyone? Where should I be? How can I be effective?” All these questions can be answered with information!

- The Status Quo

Currently in WvW we have a mini map with Commander Icons, and if you’re close to other players, green dots on a mini map. This is hardly graceful and players in the south of a map will have to ask in /team, /map or /guild for information. The same applies to a mumble server: “Where is everyone?”

- Why the Status Quo Might be Important

Organization should be rewarded, but I firmly believe that everyone well have more fun if more organizational tools are available to all players of GW2 via in the in-game client. My idea could be seen as “rewarding casuals” or some other line of thought, but for the serious business guilds and groups on Mumble etc, this will only amplify your presence on the battlefield, so read on!

- Pigeon Power! Wait, what?

My idea is based around a Personnel Tier 2 upgrade that can be built at Towers, Keeps and Castles. The upgrade would be a called something like a Carrier Pigeon Roost (or some cuter animal) that offers everyone on their current WvW map some information. Namely, how many friendly bodies are in a given Tower, Keep or Castle’s immediate vicinity. This upgrade could EASILY be rolled into an existing T2 Personnel upgrade.

It is important to note that numbers are represented as “1+, 5+, 10+, 15+” etc. This way exact counts have to be done by hand. Please refer to the attached graphic.

- I Hate Pigeons and Want Them to Die

Carrier Pigeon Roosts would be exposed and able to be laid to siege in much the same manner as Burning Oil is currently. The Roost would have roughly the same highpoints as Burning Oil. Invaders could siege the Roost and deny defenders their precious airborne information if the Roost is fully destroyed, but hopefully not before more defenders arrive to protect their precious birds! Destroyed Roosts would regenerate in the same manner that destroyed cannons and oil do. Aka, you will need to rebuild with supply!

- Keeps are Better Than Towers If You’re a Bird

But it is no paradise! Keeps offer the Roost protection from invaders but not from expert trebuchet fire, or if Invaders have breached the outer walls!

- Wait, These Pigeons Will Make Turtles Out of Us All!

The Roost upgrade does give more power to defensive play, and that can be a bad thing, however, in order to counter-balance this possible upgrade (that can be removed) commanders would be able to represent a rough number of fellow combatants in their local area of influence in a modest 2,000 radius. If there was a need for a limit a suggested three commanders at a single time could use this buff. First come first served.

- Time, Time is on the Defenders Side and the Sticky Spy Issue

Now having real-time head counts will not work. It would be confusing, hard on the server and prone sabotage from WvW server hopping spies! In order to counteract this effect the pigeons would only be able to fly so fast. All number counts would be updated every minute give or take ten seconds. This would apply to Towers etc as well as the Commander with the numbers count active. This gives a not so realtime understanding of the battlefield. If information is critical (or critical that it be hidden) then players, /team and Mumble will always be the best way to up to date information!

- Your Graphics are Ugly, and I Hate You

This is a mock up idea that I would appreciate your positive feedback or constructive criticisms on. The attached picture is only to aid in understanding and is rather rough.

- Too Long!

A Personnel Upgrade that allows semi real-time information on the map screen about defensive player head-counts around Towers, Keeps and Castles. Commanders could have an “offensive” not so real-time headcount in order to counteract this defensive advantage.

If you have any questions please ask, I will be happy to clarify my thinking. If this thread needs to be moved to Suggestions, I will understand but I wanted the WvW community to see it and a lot of WvW types read WvW religiously.

Thanks for reading!

Mock up image hosted externally: http://i.imgur.com/jOhqo.jpg

Also I am looking for a new line of work Arena net!

Oh yeah if anyone else wants to share an effort-post here about WvW by all means!

I like it – will allow a broader tactical view for those of us who aren’t interested in finding the nearest commander and joining a bio-ball of doom

Yes give us pigeon power!

Angry pirate hooker power!

I like the idea

I approve greatly of this. Maybe put the updates on a 3 minute timer like the siege timer. Just for consistency.

I actually wouldn’t mind a longer timer than one minute. Something about two minutes seems about right in my mind as well. Three minutes is a bit on the long side, if players are passing through a Tower/Keep/Castle’s and it “updates” they would be counted as such for long period of time. If the defenders rapidly left three whole minutes of a keep having a 20+ display would give as assault team plenty of time to slip in and wreck havoc while a “lazy” leader type would rely upon 20+ people that weren’t actually at the keep. It could be almost misleading if the time period is too long but it could also make for some interesting mind games for both sides!

Too long of a period and a feature like this would become a handicap!

The reason that times should be give or take ten seconds is so a “consistent” update time like the siege timer cannot be relied upon for concrete information. My thinking behind this is that player interaction and communication should always be more important than a graphic.

Awesome idea! As a casual player I never have info about the larger view of the battlefield, which from reading the recaps in this forum is one of the most enjoyable and exciting parts of WvWvW. If there were a tool that facilitated casual players, or guild/alliance coordination beyond “mumble,” or the “commander zerg” it seems the strategic element and overall intra-server cooperation would greatly benefit.

I love when by chance I run to the cross swords of a tower and the battle is still raging and I am able to be a contributing force to the outcome. But too many times my efforts are wasted by chasing “ghosts” and no-one is at the battle site. Or resources are wasted on too few, or too many players in one spot. But every once in a while you hit the sweet spot, when 30-50 players are defending against 40-60 attackers, and every effort counts — no matter the outcome it is always satisfying that you were there for the epic fight.

It seems like this or a similarly informative tool would effectively combine with world chat to deliver a more gratifying play experience.

Would the opponent be able to use scouts, or counter-intel siege tools to also discover the number of defenders?

Some sort of opponent recon could alleviate the unsavory “server jumping spy” conundrum.

Catchism.7216:

Would the opponent be able to use scouts, or counter-intel siege tools to also discover the number of defenders?

Some sort of opponent recon could alleviate the unsavory “server jumping spy” conundrum.

I haven’t fully thought out this line of thinking just yet, but the idea or Orbs providing temp bonuses to Towers/Keeps/Castles (including anti intel etc) has crossed my mind.

Of course, we know Orbs are coming back, just not in what form. It would seem silly to pretend it would play into the system I’ve presented here but it would be nice to dream. Imagine eagles eating pigeons as they tried to leave a tower.

Unrelated side note: When the info is updated the Roost would have a flurry of activity (birds departing, feathers etc) so there would be a visual que that your info just updated as well for people that weren’t nose deep in the map. Plus I just like the idea of birds and Keeps.

This Sir would be epic

Just do what DAoC did, once a guild claims a keep the guards will report to that guild when people are in the area. “15 Invaders attacking!” This is simple and easy and wont take more graphics (we already have culling issues, imagine another animated object on each keep and way point?).

This idea is really cool. I like it, it would improve the interface, plus giving another type of strategy in WvsW

Although that ‘sir’ is actually a ‘madam’ lol.

Is my title really that bad? I thought it was funny enough to draw attention. T_T.

I’s so sad.

Two things:

1) Even I think WvW is getting a bit stale now so I think Urrid’s idea will help switch things up a bit.

2) I think you should just bump your post shamelessly every hour or so. Or you should make multiple threads, each with different eye-catching titles. Then you’ll get onto the mods’ blacklist and become infamous at Anet. Then they might actually see what this random person making loads of noise has to say. It’s foolproof!

tarnin.1690:

Just do what DAoC did, once a guild claims a keep the guards will report to that guild when people are in the area. “15 Invaders attacking!” This is simple and easy and wont take more graphics (we already have culling issues, imagine another animated object on each keep and way point?).

I really liked this idea!

Usagi.4835:

Two things:

1) Even I think WvW is getting a bit stale now so I think Urrid’s idea will help switch things up a bit.

2) I think you should just bump your post shamelessly every hour or so. Or you should make multiple threads, each with different eye-catching titles. Then you’ll get onto the mods’ blacklist and become infamous at Anet. Then they might actually see what this random person making loads of noise has to say. It’s foolproof!

Yah just like Garus of ME said: “Just make a lot of noise and eventually some higher up comes down and looks whats all this is about.”

I really like this idea!

Great post Urrid!

Don’t you want pretty pigeons?

The picture of is of Kraitbane Haven in the Caledon Forest. It has lots of pigeons / seagulls flapping about! See Anet already has pretty pigeon technology!

I like this idea and would like to see it implemented after paid server transfers are implemented.

Like the idea. Would make W3 so much more fun.

Rise from your grave…

I want the new WvW guy to see this. Defensive play will slow the effectiveness of zergballs.

Awesome idea…..

This is awesome!

Can I get this moved to the suggestions forum please?

No feedback from this forum?

Seriously disagree with your idea that improving defensive play is a bad thing. Defense should always have an advantage over offense in regards to the keeps/towers/castle. It is rediculous that the lip on tower walls prevents defenders from hitting attackers as an example.

It is also rediculous that there are aoe caps. If players have number caps…seige needs them removed (arrow carts can only hit 8 people at a time for example, trebuchette and mortars only hit 5…). WvW would be far more tactical and less zergy if defense was given honest considerations.

I did not say it is a bad thing but that it could be a bad thing. Map wide awareness at a glance is a huge defensive boost. With this upgrade on every structure, a player watching the map would know exactly how many people to call from another map if there was a hard push to their EB/BL.

The only way to boost offense in the face of such an upgrade is to give players more info about how many people are fighting across the map in a mobile (offensive) fashion. If this defensive upgrade was put in without a boost to offense information total map lockdown would be more of a reality than before Breakouts.

And yes putting in pigeons would mean that good WvW assaults would start with raiders sapping siege / roosts before the main zerg showed up. It would give a huge advantage to mounting a defense if attacking players had not bothered with properly removing as many structure buffs as possible. This means that speed based attacks would be blunted in their effectiveness and your average player would know that their aid is needed in defense without cluttering up /map, /team or VOIP with calls for information. This is of course if the attackers did not clear the pigeons beforehand (raiding, small group work).

Thank you for the feedback.

Urrid.4593:

I did not say it is a bad thing but that it could be a bad thing. Map wide awareness at a glance is a huge defensive boost. With this upgrade on every structure, a player watching the map would know exactly how many people to call from another map if there was a hard push to their EB/BL.

The only way to boost offense in the face of such an upgrade is to give players more info about how many people are fighting across the map in a mobile (offensive) fashion. If this defensive upgrade was put in without a boost to offense information total map lockdown would be more of a reality than before Breakouts.

And yes putting in pigeons would mean that good WvW assaults would start with raiders sapping siege / roosts before the main zerg showed up. It would give a huge advantage to mounting a defense if attacking players had not bothered with properly removing as many structure buffs as possible. This means that speed based attacks would be blunted in their effectiveness and your average player would know that their aid is needed in defense without cluttering up /map, /team or VOIP with calls for information. This is of course if the attackers did not clear the pigeons beforehand (raiding, small group work).

Thank you for the feedback.

umm what? your first post = you see your own team, this comment refers to seeing your enemies too….which one is it?

Roman Legionary.6715:

umm what? your first post = you see your own team, this comment refers to seeing your enemies too….which one is it?

Where are you getting confused?

A good idea? I don’t think so! We’re going to ruin the meta with [arrowcarts] instead! /trollin’