Guild Wars 2

When will this be applied?

So is this only in america servers or also in the europe servers?

Guys in the middle tiers, you are not thinking this through.

You have the same chance of facing a server with lower rating than you do with one in a higher rating.

It could be FA TC MAG one week, and then FA TC SOR the next. What we will get for once is VARIETY!

Stagnation kills MMOs faster than anything else. WvW is sorely in need of this change, it will be for the better.

Some weeks you will dominate, other weeks you will get dominated. But it will show you the tactics of the other servers, and in a few weeks, the tactics will help even things out.

And to answer someones question, I think in six months this change will cause a long term shift to more balanced servers and here is why:

Right now they only way to fight the best guilds/servers is to spend loads of cash to move to a server in that tier. (look what red guard did right before free transfers ended). Now staying in tier 2 or even maybe tier 3 you will get a chance to fight those guilds, no need to up and move your whole guild and start over in guild missions.

We already have some pretty famous examples of guilds moving downward from top winning servers, (HOD, SOS, SBI) and a few from JQ and BG as well. We will see much more of this if those guilds can feel they will get to fight in tough matchups against tough guilds if they move down.

Again, will this happen over night? Probably not, but it will happen slowly over time and we’ll have some more balanced WvW servers in the long run.

Also, Jon, BURN and no wonder I can’t get a job in the business, kitten man.

JonPeters.5630:

I think the kittenumptions that everyone is making are:

1) The current ratings of servers are valid. They are not because we are not getting enough varied match-ups to even generate valid data. Trying to judge the quality of a server based on their current rating is much like judging the quality of people’s Reddit posts by the average # of up-votes they get.
2) How big a spread will make a game a blowout? Is 400 rating points even a significant difference? Really its just a number with very little meaning right now. Once this system starts working (based on the math of the system the idea is that a rating +/- deviation is in fact an accurate measurement of the range of what their rating might be in a perfect world so this is technically the way this whole thing was supposed to work from the get go.

I don’t want to do all of the probability math right now, but with absurdly high certainty there will only be a small amount of randomization each week as in order for a situation like Kaineng moving up to T1 to occur, every server from Blackgate to Maguuma would have to roll a lower range number than Kaineng, and some of them would literally have to roll almost -100% while Kaineng rolls almost +100%. As the blog post stated, at the end of the day we are really just going to see a bit of nice slight subtle movement so that match-ups are less stale, and eventually ratings are more accurate.

Jon

The problem isn’t with the rating system, it’s with the scoring system.

The winners are determined by coverage and numbers, combining the EU and NA servers (WvW wise) into half the servers there are now would diminish those dead-zone periods where 1 server gains superiority over the others (gaining points, making enemy places paper, and upgrading their own to T3 for the next time-zone).

Change the game from the winner winning by numbers to the winner winning by skill.

I’m sure this will reply will be ignored though, like every other reply.

JaredKincade.9761:

What we will get for once is VARIETY!

Stagnation kills MMOs faster than anything else. WvW is sorely in need of this change, it will be for the better.

Some weeks you will dominate, other weeks you will get dominated. But it will show you the tactics of the other servers, and in a few weeks, the tactics will help even things out.

So, we should prefer Variety over Balance?

No ty.

(imo)

Hello lower tiers, prepare to be roflstomped. But don’t worry, we won’t forget to post how much “this matchup is awesome! great fights!”. Unless, that is, you dare complain about the one-way traffic, in which case “lol L2P”.

I also think this will cause much less pushing on the red and blue colors and turn it toward pushing the green color much more, and here is why.

Viewpoint of Red: I don’t want to drop to the lower tier next week, so I will focus blue points and get them to switch to red.

Viewpoint of Blue: I don’t want to drop to red next week and risk dropping another tier eventually, I’ll focus Red to keep them down.

Viewpoint of Green: Ha ha dummies! -Cherrypicks fights as he see’s fit-

Now next weeks match ups wont be determined solely by how this week did. Instead people can push that evil tier 1 server together because its more fun, than pushing the other teams because they have to to survive.

I’m just saying I think its more likely we get the double teams going against whoever the highest rating server is in each match up. This will go a long long way to help even up the matches for the lower rating servers.

A very interesting move.
Maybe +-1 is too much, a +-0.5 could have done, but I assume Mr. “Glicko” knows his job much better than all of us together.
As I’m in a middle server, I can’t wait the new system, possibility to learn from top servers (and losing hard probably, but I don’t mind too much) and some relaxing weeks against weaker server, hopefully won’t happen anymore to face for 5 weeks in a row the same two opponents.
Is a game, so variety should be in.
Good move!

AndrewSX.3794:

JaredKincade.9761:

What we will get for once is VARIETY!

Stagnation kills MMOs faster than anything else. WvW is sorely in need of this change, it will be for the better.

Some weeks you will dominate, other weeks you will get dominated. But it will show you the tactics of the other servers, and in a few weeks, the tactics will help even things out.

So, we should prefer Variety over Balance?

No ty.

(imo)

Yes, I think we do. Balance will come as ratings are adjusted. And the largest culprit to why we are this unbalanced is because the matchup system has been poor this long.

I think they should open up free transfers for 2 days.

How will Ruins of Surmia fare against Gandara? Your guess is as good as mine is.

RoS will be mulched. No guessing is required.

Balance Vs a changing of the faces. Hmm, well I for one would love to see new faces every week, or every other week. But the problem is I honestly don’t think that this new system is going to be very fun for anyone. It is not going to be fun for the T1 servers that get placed with T2 an T3 servers that simply do not have the coverage and/or population to be competitive. And it sure as hell is not going to be fun for those t2 and t3 servers that get stomped into the ground every night.

I think if this system is put into place the playing time should be cut down to 1/2 a week. I don’t think too many people are really going to go into wvw for the last half of the WvW week if its 150k vs 25k vs 12k after a few days. And you mock my words that is exactly what you are going to get if you break up t1 and throw them into 3 different tiers.

The one which evil is Rating, Tier, and Ranking.

All of these can screw competition more.

Match should be random from beginning, without rating, tier, and ranking.

ps: I think Anet should open up free transfer for 14 days – 28 days (based on server performance) after this WvW change implemented.

JaredKincade.9761:

AndrewSX.3794:

JaredKincade.9761:

What we will get for once is VARIETY!

Stagnation kills MMOs faster than anything else. WvW is sorely in need of this change, it will be for the better.

Some weeks you will dominate, other weeks you will get dominated. But it will show you the tactics of the other servers, and in a few weeks, the tactics will help even things out.

So, we should prefer Variety over Balance?

No ty.

(imo)

Yes, I think we do. Balance will come as ratings are adjusted. And the largest culprit to why we are this unbalanced is because the matchup system has been poor this long.

I think they should open up free transfers for 2 days.

1st: every server will go for be the blue. Not double teaming the Green. Because, unless you’re in T1, green will try to lose/not win by large margin to avoid a climb up in tier, especially now that it’s a random thing.
2nd: how can you think to achieve more accurate ratings if the server gets randomly placed in a higher or lower tier? If a T2 server go T1, it will get butchered, and their ratings with him. If goes T3, it will dominate it, getting scored a “win with huge margin” in their ratings for no reason. Randomizing a servers placement in tiers doesn’t make ratings more accurate, just more volatile.
3rd: ratings are in first place there to match servers of equal power, striving for matches somewhat balanced. This change, and the “Variety variety variety in matchups” is just totally against it.

And, please, NO MORE KITTEN FREE TRANSFERS.

You’ve almost butchered the n°1 EU server 2 months ago (SFR) with those, don’t do it again.

Great? Is this mean we cannot know the next matchups until the matchup begins?

We really need to know next matchups beforehand.

I can tell you now Kain lost over half of its guilds and is able to compete in t3. So if Kain gets matched up against any t2 server or above it would be a blow out. When Kain was at full strength (maybe 12 guilds) it was not able to compete with BG before it moved up to t1 and BG stomped everyone in t2 by 100k. As Kain was falling to t3 we still had around 9 active WvW guilds now we are down to maybe 4 WvW guilds. So the differences between t1, t2 and t3 are HUGE.

rhodoc.2381:

Great? Is this mean we cannot know the next matchups until the matchup begins?

We really need to know next matchups beforehand.

Why?

There is always something to complain about.

Wuaaahh!!! T_T Now I can’t kill my friends in that server as often as before, I hate this new system!!! UUuuuhuuuu :.( I bet my usuall spot I was standing on will be occupied with someone that I usually don’t see there!! I can’t stand it!
AAARRRGHHH!!! I haven’t tried it but my super complexed brain as calculated that there will be T1 vs T3 and the game will die! I have to stop playing before they even update the game to this junk! Sob sob

Why won’t you just wait and see?
Me with a non complex superbrain thinks it sounds nice atleast, it’s good with variation even if my server will get stomped to the ground once in a while.

I must say I like any system that breaks up the monotomy. We would like to fight as many guilds as possible without having to transfer server. I would happily transfer down to lower tiers and escape the queue if I new I was going to be fighting other guilds of all tiers. We did transfer down, but not without hessitation. We were afraid there would be no opposition.
I still would like a league though, I don’t care if our tiny server gets nightcapped to death by Vizunah as long as I get to fight LNM and WL.
People need to get over the fact that sometimes you face a better opponent and lose. Balanced is well and all, but it is boring and stagnant. Servers get stuck and don’t progress. You need to get beaten badly to improve and come back better.

Ulion.5476:

I can tell you now Kain lost over half of its guilds and is able to compete in t3. So if Kain gets matched up against any t2 server or above it would be a blow out. When Kain was at full strength (maybe 12 guilds) it was not able to compete with BG before it moved up to t1 and BG stomped everyone in t2 by 100k. As Kain was falling to t3 we still had around 9 active WvW guilds now we are down to maybe 4 WvW guilds. So the differences between t1, t2 and t3 are HUGE.

As previous posters have mentioned, Kn is most likely to play against a T3 server, somewhat likely to play against a T4 or T2 server, and very unlikely to play against a T1 or T5 server.

Most stupid change ever.

Are you even playing your game, Anet?

The only way to have more variety in adversaries while keeping a reasonable challenge would be to add more server.

Have a hundred servers in that list and you’ll see variety and balance between adversaries. Right now, no matter what changes you’ll make, you simply don’t have enough servers to have that kind of balance. The difference of powers between some tiers is simply to great to make it an enjoyable experience to mix them up too much.

Rng to ratings i don’t think is good idea but i will wait until the patch comes in and see how it goes

Sceptical but I’ll wait and see how this pans out before deciding if this is a facepalm or a win.

DevonCarver.5370:

This will go into effect for the matchups beginning on the 31st.

This is the happiest thing I have read all day! The original post was light on eta details, and I immediately went into panic mode. I am one EB Overlook vista away from world completion, (and my legendary) and I planned to get it tomorrow when Blackgate dropped to red. Whew!

In related news, I support this new system as a huge step in the right direction!

I’m not usually one to QQ at Anet and I will have to wait to see how this plays out but my initial thoughts are that it is a stupid idea. Take a failing system and fix it by randomizing the matchups, who comes up with this stuff?

Why were you not willing to listen to the community and try a 1 up 1 down system, at least if it had failed you would have got less abuse.

Interesting. Can you mix EU and NA now? That would be nice, thanks.

I guess arenanet forgot about eu t9 and how Vabbi and FoW can only either be stomped by Blacktide or roflstomped by any other server once it’ll randomly give them servers with even higher number of wvw population. Sure sounds like fun times for them if that’s the case.
But hey, we’re not on these servers, so who cares, am I right?

Since I’m from Blacktide it’s actually a good change, because if this works we should more often get out from tier 9 (it’s already 4th or 5th week when we are in here). It’s far more fun to be the losing team in t8 rather than having almost nothing to do in t9 for such a long time.
…but I still can’t help but notice that something should be done with t9 before this change.

I hope I’m wrong and this won’t end up as bad as I think it will for these two servers and for the servers that would occasionaly join them. Hopefully arenanet actually took that into consideration when creating this new system. I kinda doubt it, though.

morrolan.9608:

Jski.6180:

How else should it be done? Is it ok to fight the same world over and over if you do not like this?

Already answered, they could decrease the range of the RNG variable to ensure the matchups aren’t as out of kilter as the proposed matchups indicate.

Ask yourself what are they trying to achieve? The answer to that seems to be more variation in the matchups whilst ensuring the matches are at least somewhat competitive. The example given doesn’t provide that.

So you mean that these ranking means something to you?
Because most of the WvW players wanted something like this. At best your just using your own fears to put on the WvW community.

JonPeters.5630:

I think the kittenumptions that everyone is making are:

1) The current ratings of servers are valid. They are not because we are not getting enough varied match-ups to even generate valid data. Trying to judge the quality of a server based on their current rating is much like judging the quality of people’s Reddit posts by the average # of up-votes they get.
2) How big a spread will make a game a blowout? Is 400 rating points even a significant difference? Really its just a number with very little meaning right now. Once this system starts working (based on the math of the system the idea is that a rating +/- deviation is in fact an accurate measurement of the range of what their rating might be in a perfect world so this is technically the way this whole thing was supposed to work from the get go.

I don’t want to do all of the probability math right now, but with absurdly high certainty there will only be a small amount of randomization each week as in order for a situation like Kaineng moving up to T1 to occur, every server from Blackgate to Maguuma would have to roll a lower range number than Kaineng, and some of them would literally have to roll almost -100% while Kaineng rolls almost +100%. As the blog post stated, at the end of the day we are really just going to see a bit of nice slight subtle movement so that match-ups are less stale, and eventually ratings are more accurate.

Jon

If you do not like the kittenumptions then maybe your team should use their kitten heads and not use this as a quote in your news release: “Is Kaineng better than Jade Quarry? Before we never knew, but soon they might get a chance to prove it.”

If it is so absurd do not use it as your kitten example.

Any change that breaks up the same stale matches is welcome.

SoR will steamroll every server, but the other matches will be more interesting.
JQ vs TC vs DB, or FA vs BG vs Maguuma, i wouldn’t bet money on the winner.

“1) The current ratings of servers are valid. They are not because we are not getting enough varied match-ups to even generate valid data. Trying to judge the quality of a server based on their current rating is much like judging the quality of people’s Reddit posts by the average # of up-votes they get.”

This is the game design you made for WvW, the only way to judge a server ranking is their coverage. I’m glad you realise it is bad.
Thing is, a Tier2 server won’t compete against a Tier1 one, same for all tiers. You know who could beat upper tier servers? The winner of previous one, which make winner goes up, loser down still a better option than this.

The new rating system you’re attempting could work on one or two days matchup, when coverage is less effective.

Even tier 6 as a big step. SF stomped us in tier 7 then moved to tier 6 and they got beated the first few weeks. I was sure SF was a tier 5 server.

If this match up happen BP,SF and NSP you guy will probably kill NSP for good. The WvW on NSP is as low as it never been.

cafard.8953:

Hello lower tiers, prepare to be roflstomped. But don’t worry, we won’t forget to post how much “this matchup is awesome! great fights!”. Unless, that is, you dare complain about the one-way traffic, in which case “lol L2P”.

The sad truth.

Pryda.8257:

“1) The current ratings of servers are valid. They are not because we are not getting enough varied match-ups to even generate valid data. Trying to judge the quality of a server based on their current rating is much like judging the quality of people’s Reddit posts by the average # of up-votes they get.”

This is the game design you made for WvW, the only way to judge a server ranking is their coverage. I’m glad you realise it is bad.
Thing is, a Tier2 server won’t compete against a Tier1 one, same for all tiers. You know who could beat upper tier servers? The winner of previous one, which make winner goes up, loser down still a better option than this.

The new rating system you’re attempting could work on one or two days matchup, when coverage is less effective.

Why do you say this?

Tier 5:
EB: 197 811
DR: 176 325
BP: 231 646

Pretty even.

Tier 7:
GoM: 237 621
DR: 173 032
NSP: 161 667

Also even.

During this time DR’s population didn’t change one bit. But according to your logic, DR should first of all have stomped T6, and then never made it down to T7. Your logic is flawed. As much as I don’t like agreeing with a developer on WvW changes I have to agree with Jon Peters here. We don’t know what this patch will bring before it comes.

Tired of those same old matchups?

The match up’s don’t make a difference, who ever you fight will have the <server>&<invader rank> name. The actual boring part is WvW it self, it’s still the same.

When will we see different maps? Can’t borderlands have different maps? why are orbs still not re-introduced (with adjustments)?

“During this time DR’s population didn’t change one bit”, are you working @Anet to make such asumptions? Seems my logic is flawed obviously when there are tons of other bad examples.

Mooodster.3470:

so you complain about fighting the same people every week..they add a random factor so you don’t fight the same people every week and you still complain…why not just go out and admite that unless you get what you want you will always complain..in which case someone else will complain because they didn’t get what they wanted leading to nothing ever getting done…

lets hope this adds some much needed omg we are getting stomped time to step our game up and some o wow we are stomping them think ill take some time and go do something else for a few hours because ohhh now its not going to be about who buys or looses the most players to there servers just to be able to fight someone new after 2-4 weeks because it takes awhile to move up or down

I guess it hasn’t occurred to you that the people who complained about stale matches aren’t necessarily the same ones who are now complaining that this is a stupid idea that only makes the likelihood of blowouts stronger. “You” is an ignorant generalization when applied to an entire forum.

Besides, even many of those who complained about stale matches wanted to fix it by instituting an entirely different matchup system that would offer fresher matches BY VIRTUE of it creating more equitable matches across all of WvW. I guess you couldn’t figure that out either.

You can shove your omgs and your oh wows …

Pryda.8257:

“During this time DR’s population didn’t change one bit”, are you working @Anet to make such asumptions? Seems my logic is flawed obviously when there are tons of other bad examples.

It might seem like a shock to you but down in these tiers everyone is not just another nameless zergling, we don’t queue multiple borderlands every night and we certainly know what guilds join and leave.

So it’s not an assumption, it’s a statement I make based on having played on DR extensively and knowing every face and every guild.

TallDan.6350:

I’m not usually one to QQ at Anet and I will have to wait to see how this plays out but my initial thoughts are that it is a stupid idea. Take a failing system and fix it by randomizing the matchups, who comes up with this stuff?

^this exactly^

JonPeters.5630:

timidobserver.7925:

I have a couple of serious questions.
1. Did the person that came up with the math for this graduate from high school.
2. To prove it, please upload a copy of your high school diploma.

How about just a copy of their resume. I don’t see his high school experience on there. Hopefully the other stuff can count as relevant experience for your assessment.

http://www.glicko.net/cv.html

By the gods. Simultaneously trolled and pwnd with overwhelming data and facts. Dude holds the Glicko patent as well? I got smarter just reading that resume.

JonPeters.5630:

I think the kittenumptions that everyone is making are:

1) The current ratings of servers are valid. They are not because we are not getting enough varied match-ups to even generate valid data. Trying to judge the quality of a server based on their current rating is much like judging the quality of people’s Reddit posts by the average # of up-votes they get.
2) How big a spread will make a game a blowout? Is 400 rating points even a significant difference? Really its just a number with very little meaning right now. Once this system starts working (based on the math of the system the idea is that a rating +/- deviation is in fact an accurate measurement of the range of what their rating might be in a perfect world so this is technically the way this whole thing was supposed to work from the get go.

I don’t want to do all of the probability math right now, but with absurdly high certainty there will only be a small amount of randomization each week as in order for a situation like Kaineng moving up to T1 to occur, every server from Blackgate to Maguuma would have to roll a lower range number than Kaineng, and some of them would literally have to roll almost -100% while Kaineng rolls almost +100%. As the blog post stated, at the end of the day we are really just going to see a bit of nice slight subtle movement so that match-ups are less stale, and eventually ratings are more accurate.

Jon

Most core players pretty much understand why the stale matchups are better than the one up one down matchups we had before they stabilized. Remember when you were going to flat-line all the glickos when paid transfers ended?

When glickos were unstable people were unhappy because they would curb stomp one match and get curb stomped the next while they settled. About six months in they finally created competitive matchups, and glicko actually IS a valid representation of each servers chance to win.

The coverage gap between t1 and t2 and t2 and t3 is so immense it boggles the mind. Fort Aspenwood could roll t3 with stupid ppt, and in t2 it barely hangs on for dear life. Look at the match scores of servers before and after tier moves, and you’ll see that the data supports the notion that the tiers are actually accurate.

Your new system makes sense for t4-t8, it does not make sense for t1-t3.

It’s pretty stale fighting the same servers and guilds for months straight. Atleast with this change people will be motivated to compete every week (for atleast the weekend). I think this is just the first step before they start merging lower pop servers anyways.

Who on earth do they get to make these ratings systems…. my god this is so terrible. As said previously Rand[-1,1] is too big a range initially, tone it down for the first few weeks at least until the deviations work themselves out.

I’m almost considering applying to work for Anet, as some of this is beyond beleif.

And the fact they think Kaineng vs JQ or BG could even be a fun matchup at this point shows how completely uninterested they are in WvW.

Absolutely shocking…

SquirtyMagoo.8321:

Who on earth do they get to make these ratings systems…. my god this is so terrible. As said previously Rand[-1,1] is too big a range initially, tone it down for the first few weeks at least until the deviations work themselves out.

I’m almost considering applying to work for Anet, as some of this is beyond beleif.

And the fact they think Kaineng vs JQ or BG could even be a fun matchup at this point shows how completely uninterested they are in WvW.

Absolutely shocking…

The concept of “hypothetical situations” seems to elude some people.

Lorthos.4976:

Atleast with this change people will be motivated to compete every week

It’s not motivating when you get stomped on the ground in the first few hours of a new WvW matchup with no way to ever be able to recover. You simply quit and wait for the next WvW reset.

It’s what is happening and will happen when one weaker server is faced with two stronger ones.

The two stronger ones quickly demolishes the weaker ones in order to gets the more points they can, then go fight one another while keeping and eye on the stomped one and crushing it again if it ever tries to raise itself even a little bit. Have fun finding motivation in that.

This new system does not fix either one of the three main WvWvW problems:

a) thiefs still 2-shot kill you.
b) half of the WvW stuff does not give any WXP.
c) night-time players are worth more than regular-time-layers: 30 night-timers can undo all the effort of 150 day-day players, despite ANet saying that all players are worth the same.

Also, a random roll can be blatantly unfair. You do not need to guess to know what will happen when the 8th server plays against the 1st server. Really, you know in advance what will happen and that the 8th server will be p0wned, making alot of players want to quit WvW. Pitting the 1st server against the 8th is NOT a good idea.

As long as you didn’t solve point c) above and continue to punish servers that do not have a big asian crew, you will never be able to have a decent WvW ranking: 50 asian players give the server much, much more ranking than 50 NA players or 50 european players.

Oh god Arenanet oh god….

I guess you’ll always have people complaining. I for one am very pleased with this change, the matchups migh actually be interesting again rather than facing the same opponents months on row.

If this change really turns out to cause great unbalances, complain about it then. For now we can only wait to see how it turns out.

Tallis.5607:

…
c) night-time players are worth more than regular-time-layers: 30 night-timers can undo all the effort of 150 day-day players, despite ANet saying that all players are worth the same.

I’m SEA, and much as i appreciate how ANET wants to have ALL players regardless of timezone be of the same “value”….

The current ppt meta does disproportionately bias in favor of “off” hour players.

Thus we – (off hour players), are in fact being FAVORED.

Perhaps a fairer system for ALL servers would be to match servers based on queue times and volumes through timezones.

ie, as far as possible match servers based on coverage and population.

Introduce a component in the matching system where players are more likely to fight players and not doors.

Tallis.5607:

Also, a random roll can be blatantly unfair. You do not need to guess to know what will happen when the 8th server plays against the 1st server. Really, you know in advance what will happen and that the 8th server will be p0wned, making alot of players want to quit WvW. Pitting the 1st server against the 8th is NOT a good idea.

Oh please, ArenaNet wasn’t referring to pitting a 1st place server vs an 8th place server. They were referring to a few months back when Kaineng was 4th place and JQ was 1st place but they never had a chance to fight because SoR and BG already took the other 2 spots in tier 1.

If this new system had existed then, JQ and Kaineng could have had the opportunity to fight each other and it would’ve been interesting.

Right now many of the tiers are way too stagnant. This is a good change. Also, the map completionists might finally stop complaining.

I know you all whine about something that is not up your…but, this is mostly why i come into WvW, for GREAT and EPIC fights…

Some CORE and friends fun from GH:

Sweeeeeeeeeeet!