Guild Wars 2

Brynna Stormclaw.9621:

Sarqen Swiftshadow.7618:

The original post is trying to put forth the concept of fairness for all players. An admirable gesture, however, the current system just doesn’t reflect this.

I’ve played multiple servers in Europe and some in America and my experience is that the majority of match-ups were decided during the night when there was population disparity between servers. In the day, WvW was full for the most part, meaning that all sides were relatively equal.

The fact that match-ups are largely decided in the night means that each night time player is contributing more to the fight than a day time player. That is not fairness. That is not equality.

The point gain in the night time needs to be scaled down so that players from the day and night contribute the same amount.

The problem with this idea is it would by default put servers like Sea of Sorrows at an extreme disadvantage. You may as well just put us dead last.

So, since it’s night time for Oceanics then the US should also be slapped with the debuff. Then we’re all back to square one.

Stop thinking that there are no other time-zones. What you are suggesting is selfish and ignorant to the fact that Oceanics are forced to play against US. It’s not our fault that you guys go to sleep when it’s our prime time, and vice versa.

Living in another part of the world is not an exploit. It’s not a tactic. Stop claiming so.

You should be complaining because you should be getting matched up with other Oceanic heavy servers. It’s not just about nightcapping for the NA timezone, but about players playing against other players at the most suitable time. If you have a NA server facing an Oceanic server, then you have two forces constantly playing a game of phone-tag instead of playing a game of virtual battle.

Thanks for being more polite

Have you read what people have been talking about as possible solutions, though? Usually the solution is something involving outmanned, i.e., if you outnmuber your opponents, you should either get less points or they should get massive buffs.

This means that while your contribution is less while you fight sleeping opponents, they have the exact same thing when your server goes to sleep. It should balance out, correct? I.E. for any oceanic filled server vs NA, vs NA, the point system/outmanned buff system would pretty much be level.

Namu.5712:

Roland Falantyr.3290:

Namu.5712:

Kazim.2043:

Cloud.7613:

All I see is Oceanic this, Oceanic that. This is a global problem, It needs to be solved, ANet is expecting we solve this as a community but what community? As an Oceanic player, I’m willing to move out from Sea of Sorrows, but where? I cannot move to a full server and what if there is absolutely no off-peak activity on the one I go to? And what IF a full server is pretty much 100% NA player base?

These are just a few of many questions surrounding the situation, this is not any players fault or their location, we’re in the dark as much as you with the solution, ANet has to at least help in some way but so far they have not. Free transfer? thanks, but the rapid amount of guilds just picking up and moving is causing more issues then it is solving.

For once I completely agree with you. IMO we should keep this as a common ground and move forward from this.

WvW MANIFESTO:

• There is a problem and majority is unhappy about it
• This is not a problem created by Oceanic/Canadian players, in general this is not a problem created by players, but game mechanics/design.
• This problem can not be solved by players. Game mechanics/design need some improvements.
• This problem can be solved fairly. WvW is not doomed to die or become a niche sport, only a small player base can enjoy/compete.
• Solutions should not hinder any player’s game time. Should not prevent them enjoying the game, whenever they want to.
• Solutions should not provide unfair advantage/disadvantage to any player playing any time of the game. Players should not have to change their life styles to be useful/competitive on WvW.

Actually your making stuff up now. The majority are unhappy about nightcapping? Says who? I see the same people complaining about it in the forums. And on that note I see the same people defending it.

If you want to go by the forums, its pretty much 50/50.

Lets keep things real shall we.

If you are on a server with no oceanic presence then WvW is pointless if one of your opponents does have an oceanic presence.

How can you think this is a good thing?

Im sorry but where did I state its a good thing? I like how people qoute things then just make random kitten up in a reply lol

Well, don’t dodge the issue. Is it a good or bad thing from your perspective that servers with no oceanic presence have no chance against one that does?

Greep.6394:

Thanks for being more polite

Have you read what people have been talking about as possible solutions, though? Usually the solution is something involving outmanned, i.e., if you outnmuber your opponents, you should either get less points or they should get massive buffs.

This means that while your contribution is less while you fight sleeping opponents, they have the exact same thing when your server goes to sleep. It should balance out, correct? I.E. for any oceanic filled server vs NA, vs NA, the point system/outmanned buff system would pretty much be level.

That isn’t a fix though, because when one server wakes up, the other goes to sleep, so the points will still be going up at the same rate.

You should be complaining because you should be getting matched up with other Oceanic heavy servers. It’s not just about nightcapping for the NA timezone, but about players playing against other players at the most suitable time. If you have a NA server facing an Oceanic server, then you have two forces constantly playing a game of phone-tag instead of playing the battlefield.

Technically yeah, it really is a game of phone tag. I never disagreed. Would I rather have both sides engaged in epic battle? Absolutely. It’s definitely more fun that way. Does going on the forums to complain help? Not really. It’s just complaining.

I’m confident Anet will sort things out. Until then, we’ll just keep truckin along.

Bryanna, can you please scroll up and read what i typed about the new score system thingy? Thank you!

Noone is asking anyone… to play at different servers/time-zones. Please just watch all reasonable posts and ignore the “omg US players for US servers only”.

pedrst.3127:

Honestly Cloud. If you saw the reasonable posts here you would understand what people is asking. I am actually from Brazil and i play on an EU server because i’ve many friends there from other mmos.

The few smart people who posted in this thread with logic and understandable solutions are NOT asking for a seperated Oceanic server or limiting EU servers only for europeans and same for US servers.

We’re just asking that the scores given are related with the actual PvP on the W3. So it would be very good if actuall Player kills would be taken into account on the points, how many sieges were actually destroyed, and so on. And that when you take an objective, the points given vary depending on how many people were fighting / defending that objective. You will still take objectives rather easy… but it will not give 40k points lead over night to your realm.

So for example -> if you took a keep when you actually had resistance (you had to destroy 3 arrow carts, 2 ballistas, catapults …), and had to kill around 30 defenders, it will reward x points.
Now.. if you took the same keep without destroying any siege weapons, killing around 5 defenders who were running past, it will reward x/5 (for example) points.

Now you do notice that this system i’m proposing does not say ANYTHING about if its at prime-time, or off-prime time ?

So if you have a coordinated Oceanic guild running at the night (of NA based server) fighting against somewhat the same amount of people you’ll be rewarded the same as prime-time people, and you’ll most likelly beat them because you’re an organized guild. But if you’re just running and capping objectives without any resistance, and you’ll not be rewarded just the same as people who actually had to struggle with PvP to take an objective.

In the end we play W3 for the PvP content, for doing player versus player -> it should reward accordingly.

Yes lets indeed review this scoring system and why it has one large systematic failure

“If you have a crap off crew ( Crew as in, people online when your not irrespective of location) why should they log in?”

If a server can organise it with their off crews, if their server falls back over a few days, order their off crew to not log in therefore offering no resistance, mean the attacking server gets little points until the Main crew shows up. Using this as a Tactic means you can successfully invalidate a entire timezones efforts, which leads us back to square one.

In Summary

People need to get these points into their head before making any further suggestions

ATTEMPTING to limit the point accured during off time disadvantages Off time players

ATTEMPTING to limit W v W population because a server can’t populate itself during off times takes a specific servers problem and makes it a everyone else’s problem

ATTEMPTING to base a score system on amount of action faced by attacking server can be defeated by having defending servers mass log off, reducing any point accrue.

The only system i see working at this stage is this

“As opposed to a fortnightly point system. Or should I say a “2 week sprint”. The game is now changed to a “12 hour sprint”. Each sprint awards the server 1/2/3 pts, and at the end of the 2 weeks, the server with the most points wins and we rank from there. So in essence, servers still fight for 2 weeks. but we will see more direct results of our actions (or lack thereof). This is a biggie, but this is a great solution because it allows each time zone to effect the server outcome atleast for a sprint. And we can then rank servers depending on their strength in offpeak/peak hours. "

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Server-Balance-Cap-and-Offpeak-Solution

I edited his response to remove emphasis on bonus points for Friday, Saturday nights

4 groups are then formed with ‘like’ servers facing each other

Good Odd / Good Even
Good Odd/ Poor Even
Poor Odd/ Good Even
Poor Odd / Poor even

Kelthos Doombringer.9032:

Greep.6394:

Thanks for being more polite

Have you read what people have been talking about as possible solutions, though? Usually the solution is something involving outmanned, i.e., if you outnmuber your opponents, you should either get less points or they should get massive buffs.

This means that while your contribution is less while you fight sleeping opponents, they have the exact same thing when your server goes to sleep. It should balance out, correct? I.E. for any oceanic filled server vs NA, vs NA, the point system/outmanned buff system would pretty much be level.

That isn’t a fix though, because when one server wakes up, the other goes to sleep, so the points will still be going up at the same rate.

I’m a little confused here. What do you mean?

Edit: Oh I see, that’s not what we mean. We mean like if you outnumber your opponent 2:1 they should get 2+ times the points you get for doing stuff.

But as I said in previous posts, I don’t actually think scoring will change anything, it will just make people feel a bit better. We need either buffs or pitted against servers with equal opponent on at given times, and maybe some changes to how servers are composed to allow this to happen more.

@Brynna

This is a game not a war. In war you have no option but fight, as if you loose, you loose everything. In game if you stop enjoying it you switch to another one.

HoD, VS players soon will realize that they are not facing much of opponents and playing with themselves. Braggin is only fun when you have a proper enemy to win against. It’s possible 2nd/3rd best servers of NA would make a decent 7/24 coverage and continue on competition. However it’s not possible for any other server on NA, and none of the English speaking servers of EU. We tried it, it doesn’t work. In few more weeks, WvW will turn to a complete casual sport, where players don’t spend their time/money/mind on it, but do it just for fun.

In a few months competitive WvW guilds will do one of those:

• Move to 7/24 servers (not possible for EU if you don’t know how to speak French)
• Move to sPvP
• Move to another game.

I have no idea why SoS players are protecting this system considering they are too victims of Ninja Sleep Capping. Perhaps they think they will go down on the ranks if this issue will be solved however I believe it’s not the case. I’m pretty certain with a more balanced scoring system and some features preventing ninja sleep capping they will move up, as they will be no more victim of this issue.

I’ve seen many MMOs where Game Designers and Community Managers have the attitude of We know the best, and it always ends the same way.

In Age of Conan this resulted with mass desertions
In SWTOR this resulted with mass desertions
In EVE Online this resulted with mass desertions until CEO of Development Company said “I was wrong and I admit it.” http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672

I have a feeling that might happen in GW2 too, regarding attitude of ANet employees. Personally I don’t give a kitten to ANet or GW2, it’s just another game. However I made many investments (time and money) for my guild, and moving from a game after a few months of it’s release generally give severe damage to guild community. We had experienced it on SWTOR. That’s why I’m fighting on this subject so hard. Otherwise I believe I had the fun I paid for this game already, and I don’t give a kitten how much money ANet makes or how long WvW stays alive.

If SoS truly does not have numbers during NA primetime, then SoS would benefit from nightcapping fixes, because pretty much every proposed nightcapping fix is based on helping underpopulated sides. So if SoS truly does not have NA numbers, then at those times that they lack numbers they would be protected the same way as NA servers w/o Oceanics would be protected when those NA servers are undermanned.

The solution is simple, we use magic to create an eternal day (or night, majority can decide).
This way there is not a night capping problem as it is always night or always day.
Now there may be a few draw backs such as sleep depredation or screwing with nocturnal animals but I think the good outways the bad.
Everybody wins (well everyone who isn’t sleep deprived)

Just gonna post this idea I have here which I made from another topic

It’s not that hard to notice that players from losing worlds who get night capped lose interest in WvW eventually as the week passes by, rendering WvW the least enjoyable feature of the game for the rest of the week after the better populated world gains a 25-50k point lead which keeps on increasing as the week progresses.

I’m a player from Dragonbrand and I noticed that when we were paired up with Jade Quarry and Crystal Desert last week that after the first 2 days of constant battle everyone(DB & CD) just started to chill out for the rest of the week after JQ successfully outplayed both servers in the day time and night time, this isn’t exactly my ideal fun for WvW(low player morale) and hopefully others hold the same thoughts too.

So I’m proposing making guild Influence Points more useful in WvW on top of being able to research only slightly useful stats via the WvW guild research tab which affects fights in minimal ways.

What is the idea?

The ability for guilds with enough Influence Points to be able to research an orb of defense that has the ability to further fortify keeps/towers/forts/supply camps for a duration of time. Only the guilds that have claimed these structures may be able to apply this buff to that location.

ex. My guild claims Klovan in EB and already has the orb of defense researched. A designated player of the guild/the commander then has a limited time to deliver it to Klovan in order for it to be activated.

The buff could then be modified depending on the location it is used at:

ex. Towers:
Improved health/vitality/toughness of guards & they gain a stacking debuff(chill/cripple/vulnerability) aura depending on the type of the guard(the auras are hand picked by the guild). World invaders that come close to these guards are affected by these debuffs which gives small amounts of defending players a chance to fend off huge zergs from structures within their world’s territory.

What does this idea accomplish?

No low populated world is left behind in all the action of WvW at all times of the day/night, but of course all of this still requires the organization of a participating guild.

Does not entirely demoralize strategies of night capping as it still needs an organized guild(s) to setup and make effective.

Encourages night time players from low populated worlds to start WvW-ing by being able to take advantage of this buff which day time/prime time players have set for the night time population.

Catch?

Cannot be used all over the map, only where your initial world territory is. If your world is located on the lower left part of the map then this buff can only be activated on Wildcreek, Rogue’s Quarry, Aldon’s, Klovan, Golanta, Jerrifer, & Lowlands. But I can imagine this as being an offensive buff too.

Costs 100k Influence Points(possibly more) and takes 3 hours to research? Can only be researched in WvW, can only be used in that specific WvW matchup. Research is gone if not used yet by the next rotation.

Statistics…Statistics…Statistics ~ That is what wins any type of mass PvP and WvWvW is no different. The (average) population of any given server makes a huge difference in this game, not “Skill” As I see it nightcapping or almost like an legitimate exploit against low/medium population servers or even servers who have significant peak time players but very little off peak.

Lets say Server X vs Server Y vs Server Z; Server X has a full queue; so does Server Y but Server Z only has half the average population so X + Y will zerg against Z because simply put, its easy for them to do so. You also have to realise that server populations also don’t mean anything either because not everyone goes to PvP. Obviously things get even more out-of-whack during off peak times when server populations drop as people are sleeping.

There are fixes to this problem, but would require some very significant changes in order to achieve somewhat of a balance.

1. Change how world transfers work; once every 24 hrs is fine, but a timer should be in place so the player who transfers cannot enter the WvWvW queue until a set time after transferring.

2. Caps on queues should be in place to prevent any side having a player advantage. Example; new round starts – 50 Players from Server X enter queue, 56 players from Server Y enter queue and 120 players from Server Z enter queue. X + Y have somewhat balanced numbers in the queue, but Z does not ~ so the cap should be set at 60 per side until enough players enter the queues so it can re-balance.

Also, by some chance one side loses a significant portion of players during a match ~ they should receive either buffs or extra guards at compensate.

3. Off-Peak times, reduce the capacity of WvWvW and restrict players from entering based on server population, change auto-balance to reflect this. Nightcapping then should be less of a problem.

Finally, words of wisdom ~ PvP is inherently unbalanced, balancing is almost impossible as they’ll always be uncontrollable factors, so the best way forward is simple, expect to lose; but play to win.

@ Disen: I just think that’s unnecessarily complicated. It can also be abused and is not very dynamic compared to just how outnumbered you are. E.g., if the solution is an outmanned fix, this is really more what I’d want, a topic I made on guru:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/65782-outmanned-needs-a-massive-fix/

Or heck I’ll just cop/paste it:

Outmanned, for those who don’t know, is a buff that triggers when you are extremely outnumbered in WvWvW. You get some mild PvE buffs (20% Magic find, 33% karma, 33% exp) . The reward is so poor it does not even cover the loss in event wins fro being so outmanned. It even does the opposite: when people see outmanned, they log out because they just don’t see a point.

I play on Sorrow’s Furnace, and people are stopping upgrades on towers and keeps because it is becoming accepted fact that once we go to bed, when we wake up, everything will be “green” (owned by Fort Aspenwood). Literally. On borderlands, during the early morning, we’re outnumbered 30 to about 4, and even the most intelligent, experienced, players in a heavily fortified keep cannot hold anything, and cannot even take a camp.

People don’t go to WvWvW for in game monetary rewards, because even with +100% magic find, +100% karma, + 100% exp, you’re still better off doing dynamic events, more so if you’re the one footing the bill for siege weapons.

Suggestion:

Outmanned should ideally be balanced such that numbers will always be more advantageous, but that players who are outmanned should at least have a decent chance of playing defense. So I suggest outmanned give some effects to that end, and be tiered to be more accurate.

Tier 1: Server has 80% of the population of the most populous server on this map.
Buffs: Just another 5% max health, like an orb of power

Tier 2: Server has 60% of the population of the most populous server on this map.
Buffs: +10% max health, + 5% damage, Camp/Tower/keep upgrades -50% cost (in gold, same supply)

Tier 3: Server has 40% of the population of the most populous server on this map.
Buffs: +15% max health, +10% Damage, Camp/Tower/keep upgrades -75% cost, +50% damage vs NPCs, no damaged armor on death

Tier 4: Server has 25% of the population of the most populous server on this map.
Buffs: +20% max health, +25% Damage, Camp/Tower/keep upgrades free, +100% damage vs NPCs, no damaged armor on death

With this suggestion, even in the aforementioned scenario of 30 to 4, the 4 would still lose, but maybe in something a little less skewed they would have a fighting chance.

And while WvWvW is a gold sink, I think you’ll find people will spend more with the upgrade cost reductions simply because they have a chance of holding.

A proper outmanned will solve some of the current mismatches, as well as some of the horribly skewed stuff going on like unofficial oceanic servers getting screwed.

@Greep it is just a rough idea, the system is much more simple than how I vaguely explained it.

Simply it is just being able to put up an orb of defense in a keep claimed by a guild and that orb of defense provides buffs to that certain structure that helps the night time players regardless of number.

This basically means that once your guild is able to deliver the buff to that structure you can pretty much just go to sleep since the buff encourages the invading world to bring a massive amount of manpower to try and capture the structure.

Instead of having players there all the time, it will take tactics to kill off the guards, think of them as champions/bosses in the PvE world. Maybe the melee guard has the ability to do a 1 shot aoe which has a 90 second cooldown while the ranged guard has an ability of the same calibur.

These ideas are just something to work with, that’s why I don’t exactly go into too much detail about it which makes it versatile enough to manipulate depending on how people want to see it as.

Sorry I didn’t read all 13 pages so I apologize if something in here was said before.

I think we should move to 48 hours for the time being. That way there’s a bit more movement than the current one server takes all due to night capping/server pop. After the initial day where one server takes all it seems to rarely move past this. You can setup a max upgrade spend several gold and it gets all taken down by 10 people because no one’s available to defend at 5am. I really don’t see how it could get any better either as the game progresses since we’re moving outside the initial “peak” of launch and school in full blast. So all server populations will dip a bit and then on top of that being camped during prime time due to losing everything at night/server pop imbalance really makes it so that server doesn’t want to push out. Why bother fighting if its just a waste of silver?

The real only way to make it more “balanced” per say in my mind is move more towards the EVE Online method of having a server that handles all regions not just like in this case North America. Saying things like well get oceanic guilds on doesn’t do much because there are not enough of these to make all servers full at night. If Europe and NA servers were merged it would be a lot easier because when NA is mostly deep asleep EU is now wide awake.

what Matt Witter did was simply sidetracking the question, and place te blame on their playerbase
ANet is aware there is indeed a problem
ANet knows its hurting their game
ANet isnt happy with the current situation
ANet wont ever admit it

because they screwed up and they know it

they probably know by now they should have never released the game without a SEA/Asian server infrastructure, without fully releasing the game in asia.

Now they dont have a place to put the few oceanic players that are utterly ruining everybody else’s fun, and their own fun aswell.
Oceanic players are just victims like the rest of us, they arent the ones to blame. Its ANet.

Im sure ANet is working their kitten off to provide a Asian/SEA server infrastructure, and when its finally up they will offer free transfers to people to that servers, then region lock all servers.

we can just wait

Konrad Curze.5130:

Now they dont have a place to put the few oceanic players that are utterly ruining everybody else’s fun, and their own fun aswell.
Oceanic players are just victims like the rest of us, they arent the ones to blame. Its ANet.

You heard it here first, people.

Oceanic players are utterly ruining everybody’s fun, including our own.

What an absolute load of kitten.

Only consideration on this thread I would support is to tweak some improvements on outmanned buff – it could/should be better to compensate the wyld hunt that is organized by other servers from your head.

I don’t wanna see messages like following…

“We are closing WvWvW due to inbalance in server representatives, please stay in que for re-opening, queing is free-of-charge”

“Server X has now super-champions as NPC’s due to 50% players in server have families and this is a common lunch hour – they will spawn back as soon as server X has Y amount of representatives present again, sorry for any inconviniency caused”

“Grats – you hit the cap Jackpot of 20000 score due to this castle being capped after night, now go do the /dance emote on players who played during night time, you find them sobbing on the corner for wasted extra hours they decided to push, extra bag of salt and knives provided free by Arenanet – enjoy!”

“We are resetting score now that each server has full amount of people present – finally a fair match – wait sorry, cancelling this, server Y lost 3 people, stand by”

“Server Z population went to watch out football – we are disabling scoring for now, have fun!”

“Estimated time for Flame Ram banging on the gates with current server balances is 120 minutes with 3 rams – have fun!”

“Servers will be re-matched for another 1 minute match-up in 15 seconds, see you with this message again in 20 seconds, going to miss you too!”

:)

The problem is that the difference between capping things with massive defense vs capping them with virtually no defense is completely different. They should award completely different amounts of points.

Surmaturma.4823:

Only consideration on this thread I would support is to tweak some improvements on outmanned buff – it could/should be better to compensate the wyld hunt that is organized by other servers from your head.

I don’t wanna see messages like following…

“We are closing WvWvW due to inbalance in server representatives, please stay in que for re-opening, queing is free-of-charge”

“Server X has now super-champions as NPC’s due to 50% players in server have families and this is a common lunch hour – they will spawn back as soon as server X has Y amount of representatives present again, sorry for any inconviniency caused”

“Grats – you hit the cap Jackpot of 20000 score due to this castle being capped after night, now go do the /dance emote on players who played during night time, you find them sobbing on the corner for wasted extra hours they decided to push, extra bag of salt and knives provided free by Arenanet – enjoy!”

“We are resetting score now that each server has full amount of people present – finally a fair match – wait sorry, cancelling this, server Y lost 3 people, stand by”

“Server Z population went to watch out football – we are disabling scoring for now, have fun!”

“Estimated time for Flame Ram banging on the gates with current server balances is 120 minutes with 3 rams – have fun!”

“Servers will be re-matched for another 1 minute match-up in 15 seconds, see you with this message again in 20 seconds, going to miss you too!”

:)

personally I don’t want all of this but a dynamic score system is what could solve the problem..
owning stuffs 150 vs 20 is not the same that owning stuffs 20 vs 150, the effort is different so should be the points assigned in a balanced system, of course 150 ppl can get more stuffs together than what 20 ppl can and here comes the balance, 150 ppl still will win against 20 ppl, no one here want them to lose, still numbers will count and still servers with 24\7 coverage will have a good advantage over servers that cannot cover all the hours but at least those servers will be motivated to fight even outnumbered, with a big gain of fun for all the factions, cos no one wanna fight in empty maps.
got it now? no one wanna ruin the game experience for anyone else here, every idea it was suggested could improve the game a lot for all players from all time zones.

Some people work most of the day and the only play time that they can get is during the night time, or when they actually have a day off. Like me I work most of the day and play at night because that is the only time I can actually play.

@Kitem
yeah and wouldn’t you like to find and fight against people instead of NPC or PvDoor?

an easy win is boring as hell and so it is being stomped

well in the end – how many of us are really in wvwvw for the overall score? It seems extremely rare on wvwvw maps and VERY common in forums. I mean if you ask “what about defense?”, “what about escorting supply to keep for upgrades” – common answers vary around “we want them to cap it so we can cap it back to maximise karma, exp and money” or “it costs” or “it is not so fun”.

So how many us really, really in the end are there for overall score? I wonder. So if there are 20 of us and 150 of them – they should utterly crush us in open battle – they should dominate majority of the map with ease if they play smart and yes there are still options for us to compete with them.
Tactic reduces greatly advantage in numbers. Sure, that big difference wins always but you can considerably slow them and make it rather difficult for them while waiting for more numbers on your side.
Don’t want to turn this thread on tactic discussion but you don’t need equal numbers to have a chance to win – you need same scale 20 vs 150 is not possible in normal circumstances , 100 – 150 totally doable, I have been on pushes against zergs at least double in numbers and crushed them – when enough people turn their backs, whole zerg gets scared and starts running – it happens.

it takes 1 person to cap a flag or kill a dolyak with ease, it takes 3 to cap a supply camp without npc buff with ease, with group of 5 you can add easily also all NPC events there for a steady flow of karma, exp and money for you as your party runs around the map. Sure, you don’t have map domination but you can seriously slow down their supply flow to keeps so that when your side gets numbers they have poorly supplied and upgraded keeps. It is fun also in small numbers and without map domination and you can make proffit in all karma, exp and money with small group.

Binafus.8153:

Zireael did not mean to type your name wrong meant no offense.

Here are some of the things any guild can do to have a chance at being number one.

Require your members to que when online for WvW.
Don’t allow alts everyone get on their best toon to WvW.
Staying up when you need sleep in order to win.
Getting up early to play when you do not feel like it.
Recruiting players that can play when the main part of your guild is not on.
Maybe having to change servers to even out que times for 24 hour coverage.
Understanding Casual players have no place in a guild that wants to be number 1.
Double teaming the server above you in order to win.
Do not allow jump puzzles in your Warzones, everyone is there to win not screw around.
Use your money and tokens for siege and upgrades.

If you want to be number here are the things you have to deal with.

Sitting in Que when you want to play.
Playing later than you want too in order to win.
Everyone following someone elses directions even if you do not agree.
Having the majority of players think you win becuase the rules do not favor them.
Having players and guilds join your server that do not feel as strongly about winning as you do.

what you describe here is a job and your obvious lack of understanding of that would lead me to assume you dont have much experience of a job or it would be obvious to you.

far too much “doing x that you dont want to” in order to win is work. most folk have real jobs and play games to have fun , they tend to stop playing games in their spare time when it involves doing things they dont want to.
cos in my life I like to be paid for doing things i dont want to…

There is actually a lot of fighting going on our WvW match at night and day, I was off a couple of days and I played from 9 am to 4 am, its been pretty much the same amount of people fighting off an on even. I want to fight other player’s not npc’s, and to me npc’s are the same trick over and over again… I love having a challenge playing against other player’s

Kolly.9872:

@Kitem
yeah and wouldn’t you like to find and fight against people instead of NPC or PvDoor?

an easy win is boring as hell and so it is being stomped

What NA players don’t understand is that Oceanic players rarely if ever fight nothing but NPCs and Doors. The server isn’t empty, just so happens the Oceanic players are more in numbers. THIS is the problem.

I mean: yes you can slow the enemy even in 20 vs 150 if you play smart, that is exaclty what my guild is trying to do every day, we surely won’t give up even when greatly outnumbered and of course we don’t care much about score, but for bringing more people in wvw the score is important and evn if we manage to slow the enemy for 5.6 hours, our big effort is not rewarded at all in the end, the zerg will always win the war in the end, because the current scores are totally broken, a zerg can easily keep 20 people inside a keep and in the meanwhile getting huge points from all the rest of the map.
I want to repeat myself:
why not to give points only when succesfully defence or attack?
in this way if 20 people are able to repel the enemies for 4 or 5 times, they gain points for their faction, and only when they fall down the enemy will gain points for himself.
of course 150 people vs 20 should be able to get that keep defended by 20 people in a matter of time. But at least if those 20 people manage to defend with success for over an hour putting big effort in it, they at least feel how they have accomplished something.
at the moment is not, at the moment you only play for fun and not for score sure, but I guess how much the fun will last

I do like the arena net acknowledgement to a possible change in scoring. If the community had any sense it would have stopped harping on about night capping and started discussing the scoring from the off.

capturing stuff 24/7 is rightful and intentional, what is an issue is that during times of lower population the score is therefore completely skewed that trivialises playing the rest of the time.

This does not mean scoring should be population dependant if a server puts 200 players in a lake and the other two put 0 they deserve to be winning and contributing. what they shouldn’t be doing is contributing 10000000000’s of points more in a match up than those playing when its 200 vs 200 vs 200. the narrow victories during more populated hours need to better be reflected in the score in comparison to the landslides in low population hours.

Anet is not going to turn guildwars off because you got tuckered out when it got dark outside.

There is a reason other games have lock out periods on captures. The past has shown time and time again to maintain a competitive environment 24 hour activity will always bring forth these issues and hemorrhage players until you’re left with a small group. Now i’m not advocating a flat out lock out period as it doesn’t fit here, my suggestion will be a bit more down.

This is not something arenanet should want or the players involved.

I’m all for PvP solutions to a PvP problem however the only solution here right now is either team up with cross region guilds or have a large populace of the unemployed on your server.

I would be more open to the idea of night captures if you Arenanet for starters made the servers international to begin with, however you did not you setup servers regional, while not locking them It does give plenty a clear view that if another region join there they will always be on top.

Let’s say a night is at least 8 to 10 hours this means a tick every 15 minutes, so this means 32 to 40 times 500 to 600 point gained when the rest is below 100. So let’s say easily 20K points gained the other party has a hard time to recover from and this is me not including the remaining morning and work day what makes that a 40K point leap. Now to recover from that the Night capping server needs to have little activity during peak hours, what doesn’t happen and so even being in disadvantage during the peak hours but still 200 points near them you cannot regain it.

Generally if it was just you against the other region it would balance out as their activity would be low during your times but it isn’t in reality.

Please do not adopt this Ostrich stance and write it off as just a vocal minority issue, check your graphs and see how the server point shifts from near equal or with some advantage to almost everything to one server during off hours.

Anyway i think my stance on this is clear i find it a flaw in the system and an error that will cause more issues down the line.

So what do i propose?

We get rid of static point gains and make them variable, the amount of points per type of structure gained per tick is based directly of how many people are active.
This would lead to off hour camping when there’s no to barely any resistance to not give the full amount of points now but only a minor fraction.

This allows those kittenally play on the other region server to be with friends from europe and vice versa, but removes the situation now that each day the other servers end up with

This reasoning is based that from a design point of view you want a competitive environment, so you want to focus the biggest rewards on the time where the activity is the most another side effect is that you also keep the points closer together what removes the discouraging element we see now when another is miles ahead when the region peak hour starts and keeps WvWvW really competitive.

The large point gaps served their purpose when getting a more correct balance now it doesn’t anymore for the biggest part at least in my opinion.

This could indirectly also effect server population balance if you think further on it or at least gives incentive to not pick the largest populated servers as your main choice, while server queues already play a discouraging role there.

I Would like to have a developer poke holes in my suggestion here, although asking for a response can make you generally persona non grata on forums but taking no course of action will not make WvWvW a competitive enviroment PvP guilds looked for in this game in the long run and it will be treated as a mini game inside the game.

Acidbaron.6724:

There is a reason other games have lock out periods on captures. The past has shown time and time again to maintain a competitive environment 24 hour activity will always bring forth these issues and hemorrhage players until you’re left with a small group. Now i’m not advocating a flat out lock out period as it doesn’t fit here, my suggestion will be a bit more down.

This is not something arenanet should want or the players involved.

I’m all for PvP solutions to a PvP problem however the only solution here right now is either team up with cross region guilds or have a large populace of the unemployed on your server.

I would be more open to the idea of night captures if you Arenanet for starters made the servers international to begin with, however you did not you setup servers regional, while not locking them It does give plenty a clear view that if another region join there they will always be on top.

Let’s say a night is at least 8 to 10 hours this means a tick every 15 minutes, so this means 32 to 40 times 500 to 600 point gained when the rest is below 100. So let’s say easily 20K points gained the other party has a hard time to recover from and this is me not including the remaining morning and work day what makes that a 40K point leap. Now to recover from that the Night capping server needs to have little activity during peak hours, what doesn’t happen and so even being in disadvantage during the peak hours but still 200 points near them you cannot regain it.

Generally if it was just you against the other region it would balance out as their activity would be low during your times but it isn’t in reality.

Please do not adopt this Ostrich stance and write it off as just a vocal minority issue, check your graphs and see how the server point shifts from near equal or with some advantage to almost everything to one server during off hours.

Anyway i think my stance on this is clear i find it a flaw in the system and an error that will cause more issues down the line.

So what do i propose?

We get rid of static point gains and make them variable, the amount of points per type of structure gained per tick is based directly of how many people are active.
This would lead to off hour camping when there’s no to barely any resistance to not give the full amount of points now but only a minor fraction.

This allows those kittenally play on the other region server to be with friends from europe and vice versa, but removes the situation now that each day the other servers end up with

This reasoning is based that from a design point of view you want a competitive environment, so you want to focus the biggest rewards on the time where the activity is the most another side effect is that you also keep the points closer together what removes the discouraging element we see now when another is miles ahead when the region peak hour starts and keeps WvWvW really competitive.

The large point gaps served their purpose when getting a more correct balance now it doesn’t anymore for the biggest part at least in my opinion.

This could indirectly also effect server population balance if you think further on it or at least gives incentive to not pick the largest populated servers as your main choice, while server queues already play a discouraging role there.

I Would like to have a developer poke holes in my suggestion here, although asking for a response can make you generally persona non grata on forums but taking no course of action will not make WvWvW a competitive enviroment PvP guilds looked for in this game in the long run and it will be treated as a mini game inside the game.

You can not have population based point control, if its 200 v 0 v 0 the 200 deserve to win during that period.

what you have to do is make the points won for winning with 200 v 0 v 0 equal that of winning when you have 200 v 200 v 200. even though you may have a narrower victory the contribution to being victorious during different hours needs to be the same.

lets change our tune, less about the play time hours and less bout night capping when is off peak etc. more about the scoring system, that is the thing in error not people with irregular hours

Davion.8754:

Anet is not going to turn guildwars off because you got tuckered out when it got dark outside.

yeah and you’ll end up playing vs doors till you’ll get bored of this game too and move on

here no one is saying nightcapping is not a fair tactic, and there are also servers like SoS for which the nightcapping occurs during NA peak times, there is a problem for all players, would they be oceanics, europeans, asiatics or americans.
what is not fair is how points are being assigned during everytime of the day when 1 server is overpopulated and the others not.
I don’t get it how it is so hard to understand, but I’m starting to think that people realy like an easy win against door and npcs, cos people who transferred to overpopulated servers prefer pve to pvp, don’t they?

MachineX.6791:

If anything is to be done with NIGHT CAPPING. then the same should be done for DAY CAPPING. My server is a night server and we play day servers. So they cap everything while no one is playing during the day. This is the same thing that the crybabies are crying about for night capping. its a 24/7 war get over it and play or dont. It goes both ways, all of ur “hard work” is just you day capping night servers then you cry when the same thing happens.

OMG have you ever tried to read some of the proposal on this thread before posting?
every good proposal here (do not listen to trolls) is for a fair balance between servers, and for a fair score when 1 server is bigger in numbers than the other 2. This can occur for some servers during peak time for others during off peak time, it’s an overall problem and all of us should be ask for a solution and a fix.
but some people prefer keep winning against npc instead

Brynna Stormclaw.9621:

The problem with this idea is it would by default put servers like Sea of Sorrows at an extreme disadvantage. You may as well just put us dead last.

So, since it’s night time for Oceanics then the US should also be slapped with the debuff. Then we’re all back to square one.

Stop thinking that there are no other time-zones. What you are suggesting is selfish and ignorant to the fact that Oceanics are forced to play against US. It’s not our fault that you guys go to sleep when it’s our prime time, and vice versa.

Living in another part of the world is not an exploit. It’s not a tactic. Stop claiming so.

First off, if it were properly implemented it would not put any servers at a disadvantage. If the system were simply to scale point gain down based upon population disparity (regardless of the time of day) it would affect both night and day equally if they are equally imbalanced. However, if there was a time of day where both sides had equal numbers in WvW it would emphasize that.

Secondly, your assumptions about me and your general tone are extremely insulting and unconstructive. Shock and horror, I am not from the US either. So trying to plaster me with your thinly-veiled xenophobic stereotyping isn’t going to work.

Thirdly, I never claimed that living in another part of the world was an exploit or a tactic. In fact, those things are irrelevant to my argument.

Brynna Stormclaw.9621:

Oh my goodness, I am about to flip a table.

I play on Sea of Sorrows. As I write this, we are currently facing 2 American servers. SoS is almost completely Oceanic. Each morning our efforts are completely ruined because these 2 servers have been mopping up while we were sleeping. Late last night I watched a huge US zerg take Ask Hills (and our orb) from us in a matter of minutes because most of us were sleeping. Did I make a forum post complaining about them nightcapping us? No.. because we will work to get it back, like we have done every day since the matches reset.

Do we whinge and complain about NA servers night capping us? No. We suck it up and work toward taking our land back. And we have 2 US servers to take it from!

I cannot believe this is still a topic people are crying about. Stop whining, and take your stuff back. This is war, not “Wahhh there’s something I don’t like so I shall stamp my feet like a spoiled child”.

Man up.

I also play on Sea of Sorrows and WvW gets very boring during out peak hours. The map fills with out players and there is no-one for us to fight. Only one or two maps have anyone on them (currently it’s EB and Tarnished Coast Borderlands, GoM doesn’t have the numbers atm so they aren’t even logging in) and even though you can get into the third (while the other two have very long queues) there is nothing to do there – no-one on the other side is playing so we capped the map and sit there with nothing to do. WvW with the current bad match making algorithms and population caps/lack of is a really boring and unplayable experience for a lot of people.

The match making needs to take into account peak play times for people. Night capping will be less of an issue if you match servers with others that are playing at the same times. It also seems bizarre to me (if this is true) that a map can be full and spaces on that map are shared by every side, not divided amongst the three sides so that it’s not just whoever had the most in the map first. I don’t have a problem with one side outmanning another, but if it happens because another side can’t enter the map because one side had a lot of people on it, that’s really bad design.

I’m not unhappy with Night Capping because it’s unfair, I think it’s unfun. Taking empty keeps, fully controlling three maps and generally having very little to do in WvW is a terrible experience for the winning side. I don’t think it’s very enjoyable for the losing side either.

Kelthos Doombringer.9032:

Greep.6394:

So again this is just another example of someone just looking at one small aspect of the problem and insulting others because it doesn’t apply to them.

This kinda sums up your entire post to me.

It almost affects SoS more than any other US server because we have such a tiny US presence. Regardless of whom we fight, so long as the opponent server has a US presence, we will lose everything that we worked for.

Its unfair to suggest that point changes are made for “night time” because that directly affects the people in the Oceanic region, just because they another part of the world.

But that’s just where the selfishness comes in. When you lot refer to “night time” you refer to US off-peak, like US is the only country in the world that matters.

Build a bridge, get over it. Oh and if the precious US are the only ones getting the short end of the stick, the current score for our match against Tarnished Coast and Gates of Madness is:

TC: 124,495
SoS: 99,586
GoM: 63,791

This proves my point that if we are to go against any US force that also has a Oceanic presence, we lose. We will always lose until we get a US team. And like Brynna said, if changes are made so points are reduced in the US off-peak, Oceanics may as well not enter WvW anymore.

Actually we exclusively used the words NA players. Because as sad as it may make you. These are North American servers, and SoS and Oceanic players are the small minority. Unfortunately for anet, it is a bad practice to design your game around the comfort of the minority because the majority is who you want to keep. I am not saying I hate Oceanics or that you shouldn’t be allowed to play and have fun. But the fact is, NA players on NA servers are the majority, and if most of the NA servers are being screwed around by servers with Oceanic presence there is a problem.

As it stands NA servers might as well not enter WvW against servers with Oceanic players who come in at night and play against empty servers and win.

Your argument is selfish, Most of the people here only suggested balancing the amount of score you get based off of population at the moment. So if 20 people are on the map defending against 100 people, a keep that those 100 people won’t be worth as much as a keep that the 20 people might take from the 100 people.

This seems quite fair to be honest.

Recapping once again, after such an epic pro-nationalist speech above^ – the complaints seem to come down to “get off our server foreigner scum” and “you’re making us pvp during our day to regain ground, we want to wake up to what we left”.

So not one server get to big advantage when few players are playing add a % with point gained / amount of players, like a company that have 10 workers at night will not make as much as in the day when it is 500workers there. So something like this: Start (0player) servers gain is 10% and then 1.5% / 1% players, with mean that when it is 60% or more the servers gain 100% of what they have, that way if 1server is full and the 2 other is empty on World vs World the servers will gain 33% * 1.5 + 10% = 60% (59.5% but counted up) so that server takes everything almost and have 800points they will get 60% off the 800points, that way it should not be as much o great the other server lead with 60k point in the morning.

I mean on all 4 maps in total, not 60% on 1map but on all 4maps so if 1 map can hold 450players (3×150) then you need 1080players to get to 60% of max 1800players.

lollie.5816:

Recapping once again, after such an epic pro-nationalist speech above^ – the complaints seem to come down to “get off our server foreigner scum” and “you’re making us pvp during our day to regain ground, we want to wake up to what we left”.

That isn’t at all what I said. You seem to be the selfish one who wants to be left to your undefended night game. I don’t get how that is fun. But the fact is that expecting the majority to suffer and play a game that is clearly unbalanced is only going to hurt anet in the end. Especially if they stick to their current plan of letting the players fix the problem themselves. I already see a lot less people in WvW even during the day because people are getting tired of the crap.

As people have said:
1.) Scale the total score per tick to the size of total players of the server with the least amount, so one server can not amass a huge lead when they are against very few opposition.

2.) Change outnumbered buff so people have more incentive to play during those times. No repair cost would be a very good addition as spawn camping peoples starter areas when one side is outnumbered is a lot less frustrating when you don’t have to pay repairs.

People can still play whenever they want to contribute but wvw will be a lot closer and more enjoyable for all.

The problem is people giving up soon as they face any competition. The NA people posting here regard it as “unfair” that people can change the map while they sleep, log in next day – see things have changed, and simply give up, BECAUSE they regard it as “unfair” The problem is in this weakness. They believe everything should be wrapped around NA hours, and when it isn’t – it becomes “unfair”. Then they give up because they already believe it’s “unfair” and don’t even try to fight back next day…fighting back next day no matter what is what SoS tries to do (they don’t give up, because they’re not assuming the game should revolve around them like the NA people complaining here are doing).

People will always complain – the next thing will be simply “that server has too many people, fix it Anet so we can win too”. This is really what the heart of this complaint is.

Using terms like “night capping” further trivialises and demeans the efforts of the people playing during these hours, while making the NA people feel further justified with their feelings of outrage.

You can not score points based on population, this is unfair, it devalues peoples effort.

like I have reposted about 100 times across various forums. The scoring system is the thing at fault. yes it needs to be adjusted.

No this should not be based on population. Why? because that leads to defending by not defending and if someone has 200 players and the other worlds have 0 they deserve to score a vicotry equal to that of prime time play.

so whats the solution? well you normalise the scoring so that having a multitude of keeps does not cause progressive benefits that leads to exponentially greater score lines. You can accomplish this by either, splitting the day into time areas that count points individually and score a win 2nd place and third place at the end of them or you change capture point ticks in a way that holding them indefinately is not as extremely rewarding as it currently is.

lollie.5816:

Using terms like “night capping” further trivialises and demeans the efforts of the people playing during these hours, while making the NA people feel further justified with their feelings of outrage.

This, I’m actually shocked and insulted even Arena Net representatives call it night capping. But moving on from that, It’s only the NA population complaining about this, as lollie said, when SoS gets nightcapped they get back to work the next day.

I’ve said it a hundred times and I’ll say it again, just because you’re sleeping, doesn’t mean the MASSIVE NA population is too, because news flash, they’re not.

Middle of last week, SBI queues became instant (or maybe 1-3 minutes), and have not improved since then. Friday after the reset there was a queue for EB for a couple hours, but I was able to get into BL maps instantly.

I don’t know if it was the new WoW expansion, or simply the inevitable Tuesday Tide… but SBI seems to be lacking WvW enthusiasm lately.

I am not here to toss around insults or accusations, because I think the majority of players on all servers just want to enjoy the game. There are truly excellent W3 players on every server I’ve seen – there are also kittens.

I do however want to point out that the #2 ranked server currently has instant queues for WvW at virtually all times of the day, for all maps.

Say what you want, but that indicates a problem. If you can’t keep general interest in the game mode for the #2 ranked NA server (#3 in the world), something must be wrong.

My hypothesis: After fighting HoD relentlessly last weekend only to be steamrolled during the week, most “casual” W3 players are no longer interested. They see no hope, and no point. Although the “hardcore” W3 players are still fighting, they do not have the support of random players that is so very critical to maintaining a war effort.

Sky.9347:

Middle of last week, SBI queues became instant (or maybe 1-3 minutes), and have not improved since then. Friday after the reset there was a queue for EB for a couple hours, but I was able to get into BL maps instantly.

I don’t know if it was the new WoW expansion, or simply the inevitable Tuesday Tide… but SBI seems to be lacking WvW enthusiasm lately.

I am not here to toss around insults or accusations, because I think the majority of players on all servers just want to enjoy the game. There are truly excellent W3 players on every server I’ve seen – there are also kittens.

I do however want to point out that the #2 ranked server currently has instant queues for WvW at virtually all times of the day, for all maps.

Say what you want, but that indicates a problem. If you can’t keep general interest in the game mode for the #2 ranked NA server (#3 in the world), something must be wrong.

My hypothesis: After fighting HoD relentlessly last weekend only to be steamrolled during the week, most “casual” W3 players are no longer interested. They see no hope, and no point. Although the “hardcore” W3 players are still fighting, they do not have the support of random players that is so very critical to maintaining a war effort.

Probably why I am so frustrated with WvW. Sorrows Furnace beat Darkhaven and Sanctum of Rall last week despite the fact that Darkhaven kept night capping us and making it a giant pain. But this week Sorrows Furnace doesn’t seem to care anymore. If you need to put in so much effort that the game is no longer fun just to maintain a lead against an invisible enemy. Then I can’t really blame people for not wanting to play. I only hope that Sorrows Furnace is just taking the week off and that next week we’re back to play for keeps.

lollie.5816:

The problem is people giving up soon as they face any competition.

and you? have you ever faced any competition during NA off-peak times?

yeah I’m trolling you now cos I like competition as everyone else, but from my point of view facing 500+ppl during peak times and then wake up in the morning with all but a couple of camps lost, is not competitive for me

Ok … night cap approved BUT :
Don’t let it snowball : 3 orb full map full upgrades in the morning = SNOWBALL and you can’t do anything if you don’t bore the enemy to death and they let you take point
And why is that ? Same cap for all servers meaning 1:1 player ratio ( usually ) and with the orb buffs and already built siege on tower/keep/castle
Also starting in the morning but not only ( at 3 PM UK time for example ) taking anything is nearly impossible if you don’t seriously outnumber the enemy
Also I’m ok with night capping but not that abusive : Every server has some players playing at night but it should have at least a different limit
For example most common thing in Europe : French Canadians

No Ques on HOD most of yesterday.

Maybe some people left to other servers.

Least lets give two week fights a try they might help even things out.

2 weeks fight at the moment is the last thing we need for rebalancing things..
A-Net should instead go back to 24h matches with only 3 days match during weekends from friday to sunday. At least till they come out with a good fix