Guild Wars 2

Adaneshade.2409:

You mention PvE, as you should since EQ has always been known predominately as a PvE game….. PvE is what the term “carebear” refers to. It denotes the “let’s all get along” attitude of the cartoon characters. No one is saying EQ1 didn’t have the most epic PvE content ever; but aside form the small populace in that game that actually played on the PvP servers, PvE is what it was about. DAoC on the other hand was about the PvP, even the PvE was simply a means to improve your PvP game.

Either way, this discussion is in the WVW forum therefore based on DAoC’s RvR as stated by devs pre-realease even. They wanted to capture the spirit of RvR but have missed the mark in a few places which is what these players are pointing out to them.

For the record, I have nothing against EQ1….. despised EQ2, though (another cna of worms there), it was a great game, but it’s main focus never was the PvP.

Being a PvE game is besides the point because EQ1 had the best PvP rules on two of its servers, Rallos Zek, and Sullon Zek, which had far better PvP than any game since. And it was real hardcore PvP, not the carebear stuff that has come since, which began with DAoC. It kills me that a PvE game got PvP right, but a PvP game can’t get it right.

I’m just an old PvP gamer who misses the good old days, of real hardcore, not this made up, fake belief system that running in a group in DAoC, or any other game since is hardcore, when it isn’t.

If they don’t add a major penalty for death, the reward system for this game, exactly like DAoC is nothing but a grind fest that rewards time played, above everything else.

DaoC RvR is the soul of GW2 WvW that I why people discuss it so much and why there are so many DaoC players here now. By the way mordred was a FFA pvp server for DaoC. Also there is a game that is like what you miss an they are doing a huge revamp of it right now. If someone could help the name is sliping my mind at the moment .

Sureshot.6725:

Ouch!

I’m a former DAoC player and I left it because of the additional grind added by RR in order to stay competitive.

The last thing I want to see is another grind just to stay competitive. WvWvW will need an influx of new players and the ability to retain casual players that feel they can at least compete without a whole new layer of grind. Adding anything that jeopardizes this risks ruining the WvWvW environment as a whole.

Tread very carefully ANet.

So you left DAOC within the first year?

Daoc was the best PvP game. Ever. Hopefully the upcoming patch changes that..

Pirhana.8935:

Hopefully they will be smarter about that and base it off damage done and divided to the group. example you solo kill 1000 points. . group of 5 kills someone each gets 200 points. you hit someone once or twice in a zerg run over its more like 20 points.

It worked in DAOC

well it would need to be a more complex system than just damage done. other wise we will be asking where did all the support builds go.

Majik.8521:

Pirhana.8935:

Hopefully they will be smarter about that and base it off damage done and divided to the group. example you solo kill 1000 points. . group of 5 kills someone each gets 200 points. you hit someone once or twice in a zerg run over its more like 20 points.

It worked in DAOC

well it would need to be a more complex system than just damage done. other wise we will be asking where did all the support builds go.

Going on their track record with this game, I’d assume we’d see something like an even split among everyone involved. (If they indeed do decide to take this path, which I hope they do as it would break up some of the zerging.)

Exarthious.5792:

Adaneshade.2409:

You mention PvE, as you should since EQ has always been known predominately as a PvE game….. PvE is what the term “carebear” refers to. It denotes the “let’s all get along” attitude of the cartoon characters. No one is saying EQ1 didn’t have the most epic PvE content ever; but aside form the small populace in that game that actually played on the PvP servers, PvE is what it was about. DAoC on the other hand was about the PvP, even the PvE was simply a means to improve your PvP game.

Either way, this discussion is in the WVW forum therefore based on DAoC’s RvR as stated by devs pre-realease even. They wanted to capture the spirit of RvR but have missed the mark in a few places which is what these players are pointing out to them.

For the record, I have nothing against EQ1….. despised EQ2, though (another cna of worms there), it was a great game, but it’s main focus never was the PvP.

Being a PvE game is besides the point because EQ1 had the best PvP rules on two of its servers, Rallos Zek, and Sullon Zek, which had far better PvP than any game since. And it was real hardcore PvP, not the carebear stuff that has come since, which began with DAoC. It kills me that a PvE game got PvP right, but a PvP game can’t get it right.

I’m just an old PvP gamer who misses the good old days, of real hardcore, not this made up, fake belief system that running in a group in DAoC, or any other game since is hardcore, when it isn’t.

If they don’t add a major penalty for death, the reward system for this game, exactly like DAoC is nothing but a grind fest that rewards time played, above everything else.

DAOC had Andred and Mordred, basically the Rallos Zek servers of EQ

The whole hardcore gamer thing is quite hilarious though, because PvP in EQ was pretty kittenin awful all around, So imitating it in anyway in regards to PvP is rather silly.

I mean Rallos Zek was basically a poor mans version of UO, which was even more hardcore then it, You didn’t just lose your coin, but people could loot everything off your body, Hell not only that, they could break into your house and steal all your crap as well.

People talk about DAOC because it quite frankly had the best PvP to date, the silly rule set for Rallos zek didn’t make it a good PvP game, but DAOC’s rule set ended up making the most skilled and frankly balanced PvP to exist to date…Its why these games are trying to copy DAOC now, because it will always be considered the best.

I put Rallos Zek below UO, hell…I put it below Shadowbane.

Also DAOC’s realm rank system didn’t reward time played, it rewarded efficiency in killing and not dying. Over time you could get high realm rank, However you got it much faster by actually being good.

I’m pretty sure the rank system will be based on WvW “events” completed (flipping camps, towers, keeps, etc.). If they have the capability I would hope that the actual value of completing the event would be based on how long your side holds it after flipping. This would do the best job of impartially distributing whatever sort of “points” are given.

Gondram.8365:

I’m pretty sure the rank system will be based on WvW “events” completed (flipping camps, towers, keeps, etc.). If they have the capability I would hope that the actual value of completing the event would be based on how long your side holds it after flipping. This would do the best job of impartially distributing whatever sort of “points” are given.

This would only further reinforce zerging, running the risk of alienating the few actual PvPers remaining in WvW. The more people you take an objective with, the less each person should be “paid”.

Adaneshade.2409:

This would only further reinforce zerging, running the risk of alienating the few actual PvPers remaining in WvW. The more people you take an objective with, the less each person should be “paid”.

I completely agree here. Larger objectives would give more points so the zerg’s rewards wouldn’t be too diluted for taking a garrison, but points given for a zerg taking a camp would be diluted to homeopathic levels.

Exactly my thoughts, Gon. Obviously I don’t want zerging to go away completely. If that ever happened there would be no more zerglings returning to their ranks to farm for free badges.

SteepledHat.1345:

I bet you can get any ranks they add by hiding in a zerg. They’ll mean nothing. Calling it now.

This. I hope they do it right but let’s be realistic, this game is much more accessible than DAoC and forcing people to work as a group or have enough skills to solo would be unthinkable.

Of course I have fun playing this game. I enjoy PvP and I loved the PvP that they had in GW1, which I played since it released. WvW is incredible in concept. I did not have the privilege of playing DAOC so this is my first experience with RvR. You must be some high and mighty individual to come to an MMO forum and have the nerve to criticize me and make assumptions about my post and the kind of person I am without even reading the actual content or understanding my sentiment.

If those who so blatantly misrepresented my statements bothered to read what I said and look at who I was responding to prior to pressing the quote button, you’d realize my post isn’t about getting these “realm ranks” based off of nothing but zerg kills. I’ve stated it should take into account doing a large amount of WvW related activities. In fact, I don’t care how they go about accounting for prior stats, as long as they do it. The poster I was responding to said that people would whine about players who played WvW while these rewards didn’t exist getting those same rewards based off their stats from their entire WvW career. I disagreed with this sentiment because ANet would be more or less spitting on the players who stuck with this game type even though it had numerous problems. Instead, not grandfathering stats would benefit those who walked out on the game type and in a game that is all about aesthetics, they would be on the same level as those players who spent their in-game time in WvW while those players turned their back on the game entirely or went and ground fractals getting their ascended gear. The time you spent in any portion of the game should be rewarded accordingly. If they intend to make ranks, the players who have already spent hundreds of hours in WvW should qualify for those ranks, not be thrown to the bottom of the ladder with players who are only going to come back to grind them.

Cactus, you imply that I don’t enjoy this game which is silly because I play it with much of my spare time and somehow you took me saying that rewards should be applied to those players who played WvW in spite of massive transfers, culling problems, the removal of orbs, rampant hacks and glitches left largely unresolved as me saying I hate WvW. I love this game type, it has had its ups and downs, but your statements seem to be entirely charged at personally attacking me and my character rather than replying to a single point I made. You seem like the kind of person who would tell a person talking about ducks that they weren’t talking about ducks. Idiot.

Exarthious.5792:

Dark Age of Camelot was the beginning of carebear systems for PvP, and was the first to bring us zergs, and players who were afraid to leave PvE without a solid group.

No, hardcore gaming was Everquest I, (Rallos Zek), and earlier. On Everquest you could be ganked visiting the bank, and lose all your coin, or when you killed someone you got the chance to loot an item off them. With all open world zones, including raid zones, and people fighting for those spots, it could take you up to a year to get a good piece of gear, only to lose it within a day.

Please quit equating real, hardcore PvP with games like Dark Age of Camelot.

I’m fine with you wanting a rank system you can grind out every day, and feel special, but don’t insult the real PvP games that came first by calling anything you do in the newer games, hardcore.

uhhh, Mordred anyone ?

no loot on mordred. lots of gankers.
eve is hardcore.
darkfall is/was hard core.
daoc was not hardcore pvp. IMHO.
it had pretty good group large scale pvp but man it took forever to get good.
both in play time and real time.

darkfall was likely a much superior game to daoc but i sadly didnt play it much.

Esoteric.5490:

Cactus, you imply that I don’t enjoy this game which is silly because I play it with much of my spare time and somehow you took me saying that rewards should be applied to those players who played WvW in spite of massive transfers, culling problems, the removal of orbs, rampant hacks and glitches left largely unresolved as me saying I hate WvW. I love this game type, it has had its ups and downs, but your statements seem to be entirely charged at personally attacking me and my character rather than replying to a single point I made. You seem like the kind of person who would tell a person talking about ducks that they weren’t talking about ducks. Idiot.

Well, your exact comment was “We played a thankless game with few rewards and no progression for months.” It doesn’t make me an idiot for responding to what you actually posted instead of what you kinda maybe think you really meant, but you calling me that does make you something. And do you not see the monumental irony of accusing me of making a personal attack just two sentences before calling me an idiot? Apparently not …

Esoteric.5490:

I disagree. Players who have busted their tail for months would be on the same level as someone who abandoned the game or has never WvW’d before. That’s nonsense. I spend countless hours in WvW daily and all of us would have nothing to show for that. ANet would have to add it retroactively if it isn’t original design because I promise you that there would be an uproar.

This. This in its entirety.

Samhayn.2385:

I wvw every day and I can say is that not grandfathering is most likely the beat way to do it at this point. There is not enough cheese in the world to go with the whine that would come from the people who have not wvwed becuase of lack of rewards if we got something they didn’t.

Not having progress grandfathered because it would be unfair to those that haven’t bothered to WvW is ridiculous.

Should we have a monthly reset of all progress so every new player that comes in after this patch is released can have a “fair” chance at progressing at a similar pace?

Its certainly not fair to someone who buys this game 6 months, 1 year, even 5 years from now to have a prayer at catching up.

Is there seriously anyone who does not see the failures of that argument?

Most of the daoc players went to JQ. Also, a number of DAOC employees are now working for Anet.

People use common sense please… Do you actually believe that progress WONT be grandfathered? Really?
Do you believe that Anet would ignore all the players that play wvw everyday now keeping the game alive?

Indigus.9528:

People use common sense please… Do you actually believe that progress WONT be grandfathered? Really?
Do you believe that Anet would ignore all the players that play wvw everyday now keeping the game alive?

People are using common sense when they say they don’t believe progress will be grandfathered. For a few reasons.

1. What would they base the grandfathering on ? WvW kills ….Dolyaks killed ….towers defended ?? I have a feeling it will be based on more than just your character history page.

2. There has been many posts/suggestions regarding rewards/advancement in WvW. Some people will say they don’t spend a lot of time in wvW because there isn’t any rewards. That if there were rewards they would have been in WvW all the time.

For me it would be great if it was grandfathered since I only WvW. It’s going to be a new system so It will start from ground zero.

Samhayn.2385:

DaoC RvR is the soul of GW2 WvW that I why people discuss it so much and why there are so many DaoC players here now. By the way mordred was a FFA pvp server for DaoC.Also there is a game that is like what you miss an they are doing a huge revamp of it right now. If someone could help the name is sliping my mind at the moment .

Sounds like you mean Darkfall.

The problem with EQ’s pvp was because you fight everywhere it was thinned out, and there was alot of ganking fights where 1 person had no chance, also there was no real goals. Compare to DAOC everyone went to the frontiers zone because thats where teh battles were, people were there to fight and there was huge goals were.. invade the enemies lands and take their stuff.

Back to the topic.. if Anet does do teh rank system like DAOC they need to make the system reward people were what they did and not running over everything with the zerg. Also DAOC’s high rank people were abit too powerful, so it would need to be toned down, maybe half as powerful here, that way combat is still about combat skill but still rewards people who have achieved ranks with a slight edge. but new non ranks still have a chance. remember there is Spvp for 100% equal matches. WvW already isnt equal because of the actual level skills/trait, and gear differenses.

Also glass canons becoming even more powerful and quick killing would be a consern. I would suggest that points spent in defense give more of an effect than points spent in offense.

example 1 point spent in damage increases damage 1% but 1 point spent in armor reduces damage taken by 3% going all out in these skills could increase damage by 5% or damage reduced by 15%… just an idea

UO> all.

DAoC was/is the best carebear PvP out there

Wow, long time i dont hear of EQ1, was always fun spending one hour moving deep in a dungeon just to get trained and have to start all over again. Easier the hardest MMO i ever played.

I have the feeling and from the twitch that this will be part of the achievement system.
so maybe you will get prestige off of the WVW achievements and then buy stuff with that.
if that is the case then new achievements would be 0’s but old achievements could be rewarded.