Guild Wars 2

We all know that WvW is headed for an obvious death as people gradually realize that their accomplishments and efforts have zero impact on match outcomes. We should thank those responsible for the sad and untimely demise of WvW, as they are helping ANet to avoid such game design oversights in the future.

They should just remove the scoring mechanism entirely. It’s the PvP that matters, not the score. Sadly, you’ll notice that lots of people from SBI/HoD/JQ/ET only care about being a top tier server, when all that means is your off-prime shift and population is higher than everyone elses. If they were to remove the scoring system, perhaps people would play for the actual PvP, rather than to cap an empy map versus no real opponents.

MrPicklez.6473:

They should just remove the scoring mechanism entirely. It’s the PvP that matters, not the score. Sadly, you’ll notice that lots of people from SBI/HoD/JQ/ET only care about being a top tier server, when all that means is your off-prime shift and population is higher than everyone elses. If they were to remove the scoring system, perhaps people would play for the actual PvP, rather than to cap an empy map versus no real opponents.

I support this. Either way, if the system remains as-is, people are going to give up on WvW.

melchiz.7182:

MrPicklez.6473:

They should just remove the scoring mechanism entirely. It’s the PvP that matters, not the score. Sadly, you’ll notice that lots of people from SBI/HoD/JQ/ET only care about being a top tier server, when all that means is your off-prime shift and population is higher than everyone elses. If they were to remove the scoring system, perhaps people would play for the actual PvP, rather than to cap an empy map versus no real opponents.

I support this. Either way, if the system remains as-is, people are going to give up on WvW.

A lot of people already. Night capping kills motivation.

GW2 released Aug 28th.
Not even 1mo old.
Gotta give problems time to be resolved.
I’m sure Arenanet will comeup with something.

WvW isn’t even that much about the PvP. PvP only happens when you’re free-roaming as a zerg and run across a group of 5-6 enemies and attack them. Most of the time you’re doing nothing but mindlessly attacking reinforced doors with 500k defense and 20 million hitpoints and getting exp/karma/gold for it. If they removed the scoring mechanism there would be absolutely no point to capturing anything and people would get bored of doing nothing but cluster-kitten pvp and quit.

It would make sense (not really) to make scoring enabled during peak hours and disable it at night and have it just be a PvP free for all (this soundskitten and I hope they never do this).

Raffie.7865:

GW2 released Aug 28th.
Not even 1mo old.
Gotta give problems time to be resolved.
I’m sure Arenanet will comeup with something.

Yes but at that time will interest in WvW have passed some critical threshold in population loss from which it will not recover?

Slow reaction time kills MMOs. Ask Bioware.

Brome.7036:

Night capping for some is day capping for others.

Toughen up chicken butt.

That’s not the point of what I was saying. Notice I said, “off-prime” capping. That’s exactly what it is. It may be day for those players, but it’s certainly “off-prime”, and in general is versus no real opposition.

I could care less about “night” capping, or whatever you want to call it. What I care about is having a decent platform to PvP on. As it stands currently with the scoring in play, people are not motivated to PvP after a server jumps 20k points in a single night. I personally could care less about the score — but that’s not the cast for most players.

DAoC never had a scoring system and the PvP was incredibly fun. There were certainly other incentives to take back part of the map, but it was never “oh, we’re 100k points behind, why try?” That’s the main difference. In addition to the fact that WvW pertains to absolutely nothing besides WvW, whereas RvR had impacts on PvE as well as PvP.

But SWTOR open world pvp was epic!
What was the name of that zone where we camped for item spawns for our pvp?

Spicyhash.7605:

WvW isn’t even that much about the PvP. PvP only happens when you’re free-roaming as a zerg and run across a group of 5-6 enemies and attack them. Most of the time you’re doing nothing but mindlessly attacking reinforced doors with 500k defense and 20 million hitpoints and getting exp/karma/gold for it. If they removed the scoring mechanism there would be absolutely no point to capturing anything and people would get bored of doing nothing but cluster-kitten pvp and quit.

It would make sense (not really) to make scoring enabled during peak hours and disable it at night and have it just be a PvP free for all (this soundskitten and I hope they never do this).

You realize that the concept WvW is based on didn’t include a scoring system, right? What is needed is an incentive to WvW besides score. Something that doesn’t snowball to the point where people feel that since they’re 100k points behind, it really doesn’t matter whether they try anymore. Maybe orbs should give bonuses to PvE or when you hold your orb you have access to certain farming zones. This would give incentive to get your server together to take it back, regardless of whether the enemy has controlled the entire map for two days.

Is WvW competitive in tier 1? Perhaps a little, but with huge queues it seems. The problem for the other 90% of servers is that one server snowballs their score to the point where the other servers simply don’t care enough to keep trying.

While I don’t care about score, I do love the PvP. It would be much simpler to provide incentives to continue trying than to try to alter basic human reasoning. Unless you know a way that I as an individual could motivate either the enemy servers or my server to keep playing, even when they are no longer capable of winning. If you do, please inform me.

Ljiona.9142:

Slow reaction time kills MMOs. Ask Bioware.

As much as it pains me to say it, WvW is heading into TORtanic territory with each passing day the glaring issues go unfixed.

I couldn’t disagree more.

It’s exactly the people’s actions that decide WvW. If anything, we decide too much of WvW, with no random element present, it turns out the server rankings are pretty static and the matches are usually decided in a couple of days.

Zid.4196:

I couldn’t disagree more.

It’s exactly the people’s actions that decide WvW. If anything, we decide too much of WvW, with no random element present, it turns out the server rankings are pretty static and the matches are usually decided in a couple of days.

So WvW is perfectly healthy and there is no evidence that people are starting to give up on the broken game mode?

Instead of removing scoring, just replace it with bonuses that you get for holding a keep/tower/camp that slowly increase over time, resetting the bonus when the keep is captured by another server. So instead of capping a tower because it gives you X points every 15 mins, you cap it and hold it because it awards your server with a bonus 1%/2%/3% karma gain that grows the longer you hold it. That would make wvw feel much more approachable for casuals who don’t want to stay up 24/7 to compete for bragging rights.

Only a few things I don’t like about WvW.
Is the 1-3 days my server does not show up on the map for owning anything and no one will go fight after that.

I just feel if 1 server owns all, the map should reset.
Seems pointless to leave it like that for the week.
From what I have seen, few will try to do anything, most will do PVE/story line.

I can live with this till they fix it, but thats me.

Minibiskit.6158:

Instead of removing scoring, just replace it with bonuses that you get for holding a keep/tower/camp that slowly increase over time, resetting the bonus when the keep is captured by another server. So instead of capping a tower because it gives you X points every 15 mins, you cap it and hold it because it awards your server with a bonus 1%/2%/3% karma gain that grows the longer you hold it. That would make wvw feel much more approachable for casuals who don’t want to stay up 24/7 to compete for bragging rights.

Also a very reasonable suggestion. So why did ANet think that this scoring system would work? After only a few weeks of uptime, it has become painfully obvious that it is unsustainable. Was QA insufficient?

Why are so many people whining about this? This argument has basically come down to people complaining about a server that has people in multiple time zones. WvW is not broken simply because of this matter, and any solution that I’ve seen posted on these forums is outright stupid as it would be taking away from what WvW is suppose to be, a 24/7 fight.

My current wvw match (sorrows furnace vs dark haven vs sorrows of r something) is actually super close. We jumped up by 20k and the other 2 servers are currently more active than ours trying to come back and have dropped it to maybe 10-12k gap. Seems to be functioning just fine to me.

@DJ
Don’t worry, DH will crumble.

Dj Trev.6528:

My current wvw match (sorrows furnace vs dark haven vs sorrows of r something) is actually super close. We jumped up by 20k and the other 2 servers are currently more active than ours trying to come back and have dropped it to maybe 10-12k gap. Seems to be functioning just fine to me.

Yea, I’m loving the WvW matchups lately. DH actually has a really great “night-capping” crew, and usually the daily peak hours and quite even.

Sorrow’s and Sanctum are great opponents, it’s too bad whoever loses will zerg the next lowest and the top two will most likely fight a decent fight.

Here’s to hoping we get good matchups like this week

I actually kinda like the idea of removing the scoring system, or ‘hiding’ it and only showing it at the end of the match up or something.

The system is supposed to be based on DAoC, but there was no scoring system there. Then again there was no changing match-ups either.

The problem with the scoring system is that once a server gets fairly far behind, it gets hard to motivate people to continue trying. That can be easier to fix on servers with big alliances and active community populations but on other servers they will just give up and stop trying until the next match up. The situation then snowballs until the end of the match up and the score ends up being rediculous.

Removing the scoring system may help to alleviate this.

Either way, as SWTOR has shown Arenanet really REALLY needs to get on the ball and get the system running smootly in order to ensure it continues as those of us (like me) who love this type of PvP sorely want it to.

Chewy.9263:

WvW is suppose to be, a 24/7 fight.

You are right, it’s “supposed” to be. However, if a server can’t field the same population as the dominate server 24/7, then it’s simply no longer 24/7. The smaller server is more like 18/7. See the issue yet?

If both servers had equal population spread across the same time zones, THEN it could legitimately be 24/7. As it is right now, these server ranks are mostly based off of population and timezones. Granted some servers have good pvp’ers and tactitions, some have hackers,….but all of that is mostly trumped by population. It’s math, and it will get you every time.

Its not the score that bothers me, its when I look at the map and have to find what my server owns. That is the problem.

I called it a long time ago, people would say " you just want the game the way you want it" “screw what other people want” threads galore. No reason to pvp when the score is out of hand, etc.. etc.. I called it WEEKS AND WEEKS ago.

If there was a DAOC realm rank system this wouldn’t be happening, however the oceanic problems would still exist at the core.

I think people are trying to work out what can be done now, though, rather than ‘I called it weeks ago’ :P

A ranking (and title) system wouldn’t fix the problem – it would be nice for people who like at least some form of progression (and also a Darkness Falls type place please!) but any new abilities gained is a total no no.

Remember, we’re still in the early 1-week placing matches and there’s going to be some of these lopsided battles with one realm taking a lead versus the others. After a few more matches everyone should be on much more even footings and I’ll imagine the scores will reflect that.

willwill.9318:

If there was a DAOC realm rank system this wouldn’t be happening,

The impression I got is that a DAoC realm rank system just widens the gap between casual and hardcore players.

@Tzash

I think people just like the idea of the rank and title system, rather than the extra abilities system in DAoC. Having a Rank and Title system gives people things to aim for, which they can show off but doesn’t impact on the casual players who don’t WvW much and don’t want to WvW if they’ll get smashed by RR10 players.

In short – Ranks and Titles – Good! – Extra abilities – Bad!

Slow reaction time kills MMOs. Ask Bioware.

Maybe when you are paying $15 a month. Here you pay nothing and you are free to come and go as you please. For most people it was $15 on Swtor or WoW. Bioware sat on their hands so everyone went back to WoW with their $15. Everyone said the same thing about Guild Wars 1 and it’s still here and doing well.

MarkyMark.2807:

@Tzash

I think people just like the idea of the rank and title system, rather than the extra abilities system in DAoC. Having a Rank and Title system gives people things to aim for, which they can show off but doesn’t impact on the casual players who don’t WvW much and don’t want to WvW if they’ll get smashed by RR10 players.

In short – Ranks and Titles – Good! – Extra abilities – Bad!

I’m not in the game atm so can’t check, but aren’t there already titles on the player kill achievements? Or is that just for sPvP?

I still WvW even though ‘my’ server is looking to loose. And I do it because it’s fun to roam with my guild, fight others who roam, take a keep/tower or defend it and what not.

It’s not the score that’s the problem; it’s the attitude people show up with that is and the emphasis they put on that score.
The game is not won or lost just because you end up #1 on the server rank. And the game isn’t lost just because you’re ‘third’ in your matchup and behind with 100K points.

Sure they could remove the score; but seeing as the score is still needed behind the scenes and it does not take a genius to figure out whether your server is ‘winning’ or ‘loosing’ without the score – I fail to see much actual benefit of doing that other than trying to hide it for those too lazy or dumb to figure out how their server is actually doing.

Instead buckle up and start fighting for the PvP instead of some rather insignificant counter.

I’m not sure – I think there are some titles in there for things but people like the idea of a set of titles attributed to a general ‘realm point’ type system where you can be shown as ‘Sea of Sorrows OMGIMSOAMAZING’ rather than ‘Sea of Sorrows Invader’.

Or something like that anyway, I’m open to scepticism that people don’t want this game to just turn into DAoC but I don’t think we should ignore good ideas that Mythic had altogether. After all it’s still being played today, and if they hadn’t decided to go with the mistake that was Trials of Atlantis it may have been more successful for longer.

Tzash.5748:

willwill.9318:

If there was a DAOC realm rank system this wouldn’t be happening,

The impression I got is that a DAoC realm rank system just widens the gap between casual and hardcore players.

It did.
DAoC for all the fun it had was very tier based and had huge gaps between casual and hardcores to the degree where a group of 8 could wipe a group of 30 simply due to RR difference and gear difference.

Xandax.1753:

Tzash.5748:

willwill.9318:

If there was a DAOC realm rank system this wouldn’t be happening,

The impression I got is that a DAoC realm rank system just widens the gap between casual and hardcore players.

It did.
DAoC for all the fun it had was very tier based and had huge gaps between casual and hardcores to the degree where a group of 8 could wipe a group of 30 simply due to RR difference and gear difference.

Sadly, this game diminishes the gap between skilled and unskilled players. That’s not to say “casual and hardcore”, as in time spent, but rather the skill in actual PvP. With the implementation of the downed state and the cap on AOE hits, numbers win. While numbers are an inherent advantage in any MMO, it is much more obvious with GW2 when killing one enemy can rally ten allies, and fourty players grouped together can only be damaged five at a time from AOEs.

This isn’t to say that I disagree with you. I think that the gap between casual and hardcore shouldn’t exist as it did with Realm ranks. However, I wish that skill was more of a factor in fights where it is a small group vs a larger group. Sure, five people may be able to beat eight unskilled players, but you’ll never see them beat fifteen unskilled players. Well, you might for the time being. Unfortunately, once everyone reaches level 80 and full exotic, you will see the factor of skill cede to the numbers game.

I totally agree on removing the score system. Everyone is so fixated on the scores now as everyone likes to win and no one likes to loose and the scores actually enhanced this feeling. (can see all the bickering going on with all those threads)

I would recommend they introduce personal and guild ranking system in wvw like titles and cosmetic stuff and not stats/ damage/ skill improving rewards. Keep all current castles/ keeps/ supplies but instead of giving scores, it rewards points to those that are involved in participating in the event of capturing and defending.

Killing opposition players also will give points but this has to be balanced out as well like killing a higher rank players will reward more points than killing lower ranks. Those titles replace (invaders). It will be interesting to deduct points to those who died to other players as well as one can actually loose your rank.

These are just some ideas to replace the current score system to bring fun to pvp and some rewards as well.

I see no problem at all. There will be more and more people going to try the game and your servers will be filled in. More PvP guilds will arise and so are night cappers. This game is only 1 month old and I hope that there will be more people in the future. But if population decreases as time passes by then they really should think for another solution to liven up.

1. Close the Borderlands maps
2. Increase capacity 50% on Eternal Battlegrounds
3. Fix ‘invisible’ players (draw distance engine fail)
4. Fix various bugs, exploits, imbalances
5. Profit

I feel that WvW is fine as it is. It just needs slight improvments and major push to get people to help out in WvW.

Some improvements that can done is to have a way to allow people to see what is the current occupation rate of their server in WvW. For example, EB currently has 70 players out of the maximum 100 players limit, or EB currently is full, 100/100 players and another 23 players in queue. This will allow players to decide which BG they would like to go. This point has nothing to do with WvW but it will help with the 2nd point that is…

I’m pretty sure many of you DAoC players know this.
Darkness Falls.
Putting in an additional zone that is only exclusive to the “winning side” will push players to help out abit in WvW. Not only you will make the WvW zones more populated, you will also help regulate the queue as when people can enter this “Exclusive Zone”, they will have to leave the WvW zone. This will allow people who are queuing for WvW to have a slightly easier time to get in (i hope) and defend their points or go on the offense and capture more points.
Off course, adding an additional zone would be alot of work that needs to be done, but I feel that having this additional zone will make players be more involved in WvW. It can also alleviate some of the “night capping” issues and more players will enter WvW.
Off course, this “exclusive zone” can be decided by Anet on how they want to have it done up. It can be another mini-WvWvW zone, or it can be a PvE zone or a PvPvE zone like Darkness Falls, it all depends on Anet.

Sadly have to agree. I still enjoy WvW a lot, i like the massive fights and sieges, strategy and competition – but i hope for GW2 to be a game for my guild for YEARS, but at the moment i dont see it as being realistic.

WvW slowly goes downhill. The major issues are killing it, exploiting rises, people loose interest, motivation falls – as a longterm gameplay mode its becoming less and less exciting.

We need Arena to finally pay attention to WvW – we need fixing the issues with night caping, adding new things to keep players motivated, some long term goals.

I believe in few month, wvw will be deserted on most of the servers except select few ones.

People are just complaining cause they do not win, or have a lead and lose cause they are not playign the game. its a 24/7/365 day long game. Not the 12 or 8 hours you are playing. People play over here from over seas cause there is more people and better game. Can not blame them or us in capping ur kitten when ur sleeping. its the name of the game, take advantage of your other sides.
You guys did it to us this week 2v1 all weekend, which was hard for any HoD guild to get in waiting in q 7 hours sucks.

Deal with whats going on, get some over sea guilds urslef and work with it

melchiz.7182:

We all know that WvW is headed for an obvious death as people gradually realize that their accomplishments and efforts have zero impact on match outcomes. We should thank those responsible for the sad and untimely demise of WvW, as they are helping ANet to avoid such game design oversights in the future.

This is the true crux of night capping.

Not what 95% of the players achieve during the day decides the outcome of W3.

What 5% of players achieve at night does.

Arkaini.6247:

People are just complaining cause they do not win

Are you nuts? Those people are the one who want to stay in the losing server and still looking for improvements and hope by putting their own efforts. You, on the other hand, is the one of the mindless zergs who just want to win without your own efforts and transferring this server to another daily to find out which server is winning alot. You are nothing on your server. Your server will be just fine even if you leave. You won’t change ANYTHING even if you transfer to the losing servers. You are that weak, powerless. Face it.

Massacrul.2016:

WvW would be more enjoyable without that many whiners as i see in this thread.

Then you havent done PvP in other MMO’s have you? This is a right of passage, there has to be QQ ive yet to come accross any MMO with a PvP portion that didnt have people crying about something. There are legit problems here, I dont think the tears are totally baseless but people already using terms like “WvWvW will be dead in a month” is an over reaction clearly.

Anet needs to clean up the Queue’s, make server transfers more prohibitive and do a better job of matching servers based on time specific activity. Scores cant be the only measure, we know that to be a false indicator due to night capping. These issues are fixable in the short term, now in a few months if these 3 major issues arent addressed? Yeah its heading to the toilet but the tone of the outcry is premature, IMHO.

melchiz.7182:

Ljiona.9142:

Slow reaction time kills MMOs. Ask Bioware.

As much as it pains me to say it, WvW is heading into TORtanic territory with each passing day the glaring issues go unfixed.

Fully agree. Its also now a month will full hacks and exploits in WvW with nothing fixed. And the usage of them is increasing. This again kills regular people from WvW.

But on the other hand, it did fix WvW queues for us….

Raffie.7865:

GW2 released Aug 28th.
Not even 1mo old.
Gotta give problems time to be resolved.
I’m sure Arenanet will comeup with something.

I’m sure they will, it’s just disheartening when most of these issues were pointed out during the BWE.

then please dont join the WvWvW, means less queues for me

and seeing as my server was done at the bottom then totaly fought back and at the end of primetime held against both other servers coming from 2 dicretions against the Orb for the entire day i think all servers can fight back and if you cant then its not the games fault its yours.

This is a War game in WvWvW, and the weak always loses to the strong, so unless the weak tries to get strong it will always lose, nothing strange with this at all, fight back or die.

also server matching will be improved as each round ends and the servers stabilize, so until then stay out of WvWvW and let us who wants to play get your spot in the queue

Yea I agree with this. I like holding a keep or tower and fighting players. If you want to go back and farm dungeons or Dynamic events you go on ahead, I’m going to place some arrow carts and hold up here for a while. Score doesn’t matter to me. I could care less what happens when I’m not on. When I get on I’m taking a tower or a keep or well something. Enjoy PvE if you want to.

ohh DAOC… The memories lol

8 man runing from 100+ albs, funny stuff

To me it’s not a huge difference in points that is demotivating, it’s when you see the wvw pie-chart is dominated for more than 75% by one side for days on end. With the way the mechanic currently works this means the winning side is being given the tools to keep winning while the other sides are left struggling. I’m on Fort Aspenwood, we dominated our last match and are being dominated by IoJ in this one so i’ve been on both sides of the fence; neither is any fun.