Guild Wars 2

In all fairness, what these guys have been saying; guardian has little to no viable range, I think the one ranged aoe is the size of a large watermelon, does less dmg, and the range on everything else is pitiful that’s why we need retal, because we have to be able to not be completely useless when at range, you shouldn’t be able to neuter a profession because they physically don’t have the range to touch you.

I disagree with ICD idea, as it would definitely hurt us in 1vs1 – a ranger with the 2 long is skill bursting you for around 8-15kwhilst the skill is up is awful, and the same with a thief 8-10k unload, so don’t kill our class, protest for a more neutral arrangement – less procc on hit for Barrage/flamethrower, that’s all that needs doing; calling a general boon nerf destroys our ability to fight as a profession…

Bananasmile.4126:

If you burst Guardians with 3 attack totaling to 8-10k, you will only receive 1,000 damage maximum.

And that is exactly where you are wrong. A thief stealing, backstabbing and heartseakering (made up vocabulary ftw) you for 10K dmg will take 3×300ish retal dmg.

A condition engineer using flametrower will do 10×100ish dmg for 1K total dmg (+ burning woohoo) whereas he will take 10×300ish dmg from retal.

These numbers are just out of the top of my head and may be wrong, but you get the gist.

Honestly if WvW’rs think that this is diversity and balance then… well I’m lost for words really.

Chaba.5410:

This discussion will too easily devolve into QQ over the retaliation nerf and distract from the core problem, which is how it processes on certain skills.

It should be clear that no one should argue here for retaliation be weakened so that it returns a piddling amount of damage. Yet everyone should recognize that retaliation processing has some balance issues with certain types of damage source skills. Whether the 33% reduction is a good or poor solution to balance is debatable.

Well phrased, imo. I’ve had my glass ele downed by meteor showering a zerg too, but I don’t find that to be a problem. It’s an acceptable risk/tradeoff to me because you’re dishing out much higher damage per retaliation proc than flamethrower.

Benjamin.7893:

Bananasmile.4126:

If you burst Guardians with 3 attack totaling to 8-10k, you will only receive 1,000 damage maximum.

And that is exactly where you are wrong. A thief stealing, backstabbing and heartseakering (made up vocabulary ftw) you for 10K dmg will take 3×300ish retal dmg.

A condition engineer using flametrower will do 10×100ish dmg for 1K total dmg (+ burning woohoo) whereas he will take 10×300ish dmg from retal.

These numbers are just out of the top of my head and may be wrong, but you get the gist.

Honestly if WvW’rs think that this is diversity and balance then… well I’m lost for words really.

The thief even gets the chance to correct the mistake if noticing retaliation boon after the steal. The flamethrower engineer with might stacked does not. One button press 10x hit auto-attack boom dead.

Cosmic.6047:

I do know the mechanics behind. My engineer is using a flamethrower and I love it.

I love it too! I hardly ever use it in WvW though.

If retal for example returned 10% of the damage you deal it would still hurt glasscannons alot while not hurting bunkers using barrage or engineers using grenates/flamethrower too much.
A full glasscannon ranger using barrage would dish out 60 hits for about 1.3k which is 78.000 dmg —> thats 7.800 retal’ed dmg which is huge. Let it be 6.000 which is still alot for using one skill on a zerg.
On the other hand a bunker like me who uses barrage would be hurt for only about 2k-2.5k.
That is just one possible solution and pure glasscannons would have to think about going for more defense and less damage or take the risk.

Retaliation and confusion make me lol. They are easy to avoid and now with the nerf, they don’t pose any issue.

Arpheus.6918:

The point is not that the guardian retaliates the dmg. It’s the entire zerg because not only the guardians have retal on them but almost everyone if a good zerg buffs each other.
You are always talking about us dealing 1k-2k and getting back 370 damage.
My ranger is bunker. So I dish out an average of lets say 2k per person and get back 15k damage. That doesnt seem fair at all.
My hits deal only around 300-400 damage per shot – 600-700 crit which is only every 5th hit (bunker) and I get back 370 per hit.
And my damage is divided on the zerg which means I won’t really hurt anyone but I die of one use of the skill.

The problem are the many small hits that retal alot more dmg than you actually do to single persons in the zerg.
Same thing for flamethrower. It does small damage and retals alot more damage than he does.
That is the main problem.
And an ICD of let’s say 0.5 sec does not harm the guardian in 1v1 at all. The thing it would change is zerg vs zerg. And that is what is needed for the classes that deal lots of small damage numbers and getting hurt for lot (300-400 per).

A flamethrower does small damage ? really ?

If you receive 15k in retaliation damage and say ~300 retaliation damage per hit.
This means you hit 50 times !

Be aware during a fight.

If you spec glass cannon, especially in wvw, yea, you should be dead. If you have a bunker build and down yourself from only 4k of damage on 3 people… Ouch.

style.6173:

Retaliation and confusion make me lol. They are easy to avoid and now with the nerf, they don’t pose any issue.

If you mean by easy to avoid not using grenade kit or flametrower ever then yup.

Cosmic.6047:

Arpheus.6918:

The point is not that the guardian retaliates the dmg. It’s the entire zerg because not only the guardians have retal on them but almost everyone if a good zerg buffs each other.
You are always talking about us dealing 1k-2k and getting back 370 damage.
My ranger is bunker. So I dish out an average of lets say 2k per person and get back 15k damage. That doesnt seem fair at all.
My hits deal only around 300-400 damage per shot – 600-700 crit which is only every 5th hit (bunker) and I get back 370 per hit.
And my damage is divided on the zerg which means I won’t really hurt anyone but I die of one use of the skill.

The problem are the many small hits that retal alot more dmg than you actually do to single persons in the zerg.
Same thing for flamethrower. It does small damage and retals alot more damage than he does.
That is the main problem.
And an ICD of let’s say 0.5 sec does not harm the guardian in 1v1 at all. The thing it would change is zerg vs zerg. And that is what is needed for the classes that deal lots of small damage numbers and getting hurt for lot (300-400 per).

A flamethrower does small damage ? really ?

If you receive 15k in retaliation damage and say ~300 retaliation damage per hit.
This means you hit 50 times !

Be aware during a fight.

Amount of hits =/= amount of damage.

Benjamin.7893:

Retal should be changed simple as. The fact that some of the strongest aoe (for example necro wells) take no damage from retal while other classes aoe (for example grenade barrage) get completely destroyed is ridiculous, there should be some form of balance here.

Rock paper scissors is balance and what Anet was going for with PVP.
Good job pointing out that they got it right.

Cosmic.6047:

If you receive 15k in retaliation damage and say ~300 retaliation damage per hit.
This means you hit 50 times !

Be aware during a fight.

Rangers can drop AOEs that hit 50 times? This is effing OP, I’m about to go make 10 threads complaining about how this needs nerfed. A GC ranger doing that, with each hit hitting for 1-2k+ damage would be like 50,000-100,00 damage, that is WAY TO MUCH.

As a ranger the biggest problem atm is retaliation- because our damage is small and fast, retal gives back almost as much as we do.

Retaliation is always up on zergs- any half decent one always has it on. Rangers have very limited skills when it comes to wvw – pets die in seconds, you can’t use pets from walls/into walls (except a long cooldown skill aside), and if you want to be a RANGEr then you are very limited as to weapon choice- otherwise you may as well grab a warrior if you want to wave a gs or whatever and be melee.

The total damage received back needs to be adjusted- even though half the arrows miss any target, it is very easy to lose half HP from one barrage defending from a wall.

Hard to think of how to adjust it so that it causes an even amount of damage to burst and lots of small attacks too- if you base it on a percentage then the small attacks still suffer way more than single huge ones and if it a set number per attack then that hurts multiple small attacks too.

Maybe one tick of retal received per second (on your toon) would be the way to solve it- it still damages anyone who hits the zerg, and in the five seconds it takes to cast some skills that would be 1500 retal damage back on me, which seems fair for a passive whole zerg boon.

Lets put it this way, confusion pre-nerf would do maybe 3k-5k damage on that Ranger, Ele, or Engineer for skill use. Retal can do over 12k. Confusion was nerfed.

Odds of this being nerfed = 100%.

wish.1027:

Benjamin.7893:

Retal should be changed simple as. The fact that some of the strongest aoe (for example necro wells) take no damage from retal while other classes aoe (for example grenade barrage) get completely destroyed is ridiculous, there should be some form of balance here.

Rock paper scissors is balance and what Anet was going for with PVP.
Good job pointing out that they got it right.

Gw2 the game with dedicaded ranged, melee and a holy trinity. Oh, wait.

If you don’t get it Cosmic then there is no point in further explaining things to you, sorry.

Benjamin.7893:

wish.1027:

Benjamin.7893:

Retal should be changed simple as. The fact that some of the strongest aoe (for example necro wells) take no damage from retal while other classes aoe (for example grenade barrage) get completely destroyed is ridiculous, there should be some form of balance here.

Rock paper scissors is balance and what Anet was going for with PVP.
Good job pointing out that they got it right.

Gw2 the game with dedicaded ranged, melee and a holy trinity. Oh, wait.

If you don’t get it Cosmic then there is no point in further explaining things to you, sorry.

The circle is more like Guardian rolls Ranger, Ranger rolls Necro, Necro rolls Guardian. Way to not understand. Grd is a boon job, necro can destroy those and melt the grd, necro is pretty weak if you just kite it and range it down, like any half decent rng could do, but rng doesnt do enough damage to get through the grds boons and dies to its low damage output and retaliation. Get it now? This is how the game is balanced.

Haldunius.7864:

Arpheus.6918:

Retal is still hitting alot too hard in zerg vs zerg.
Easy solution. 1 sec ICD or at least make it 0.5 sec ICD so that you cant kill yourself in 5 sec.
For me the solution to this problem: don’t ever use longbow any more. I won’t get many badges that way as other classes do but at least I survive. I rather go melee – I will survive it easier than staying at 1500 range using barrage.

This has to be changed. Really.

Easy solution – learn mechanics of game and stop QQ’ing about some of the most easily avoided damage in the game. It’s the only enemy boon you can control.

Similarly confusion is the only enemy condition you can control.

There’s a common theme here. Both things require you to be bad to lose.

very much agree with this. i got killed by retaliation maybe 3 or 4 times and i have played my mesmer for over 1700 hours. a glamour mesmer by him self is not op at what people cried about was when multiple glams attacked together, but hey if u put 10 necros into hills lordsroom, everyone that enters is dead, 10 thiefs can if coordinated wipe a group bigger than them, 10 hammerwarriors bybye hp and hello death, 10 guardians same thing, 10 eles very quick death too.
the thing about confusion and retaliation is a l2 kitten ue.

The in-game description for Retaliation is really, really misleading.

“Reflect incoming damage back to its source”

Implies that there’s a 1-to-1 relationship between the amount of damage put out and returned.

selan.8354:

Haldunius.7864:

Arpheus.6918:

Retal is still hitting alot too hard in zerg vs zerg.
Easy solution. 1 sec ICD or at least make it 0.5 sec ICD so that you cant kill yourself in 5 sec.
For me the solution to this problem: don’t ever use longbow any more. I won’t get many badges that way as other classes do but at least I survive. I rather go melee – I will survive it easier than staying at 1500 range using barrage.

This has to be changed. Really.

Easy solution – learn mechanics of game and stop QQ’ing about some of the most easily avoided damage in the game. It’s the only enemy boon you can control.

Similarly confusion is the only enemy condition you can control.

There’s a common theme here. Both things require you to be bad to lose.

very much agree with this. i got killed by retaliation maybe 3 or 4 times and i have played my mesmer for over 1700 hours. a glamour mesmer by him self is not op at what people cried about was when multiple glams attacked together, but hey if u put 10 necros into hills lordsroom, everyone that enters is dead, 10 thiefs can if coordinated wipe a group bigger than them, 10 hammerwarriors bybye hp and hello death, 10 guardians same thing, 10 eles very quick death too.
the thing about confusion and retaliation is a l2 kitten ue.

Cus as a mesmer you don’t suffer from retal at all. Your only multiple attack hit (blurred frency) makes you completely invulnerable from all dmg even retal (in contrast to thieves pistol whip for example) not to mention shatters remove boons etc. But yeah, it’s obviously a l2p problem… gosh people on this forum.

wish.1027:

Benjamin.7893:

wish.1027:

Benjamin.7893:

Retal should be changed simple as. The fact that some of the strongest aoe (for example necro wells) take no damage from retal while other classes aoe (for example grenade barrage) get completely destroyed is ridiculous, there should be some form of balance here.

Rock paper scissors is balance and what Anet was going for with PVP.
Good job pointing out that they got it right.

Gw2 the game with dedicaded ranged, melee and a holy trinity. Oh, wait.

If you don’t get it Cosmic then there is no point in further explaining things to you, sorry.

The circle is more like Guardian rolls Ranger, Ranger rolls Necro, Necro rolls Guardian. Way to not understand. Grd is a boon job, necro can destroy those and melt the grd, necro is pretty weak if you just kite it and range it down, like any half decent rng could do, but rng doesnt do enough damage to get through the grds boons and dies to its low damage output and retaliation. Get it now? This is how the game is balanced.

Are you talking about 1v1 here? Cus l0l you couldn’t be more wrong.

Retaliation damage = 198.45 + (0.075 * Power) PvE

66% of this in PvP / WvW

Benjamin.7893:

wish.1027:

Benjamin.7893:

wish.1027:

Benjamin.7893:

Retal should be changed simple as. The fact that some of the strongest aoe (for example necro wells) take no damage from retal while other classes aoe (for example grenade barrage) get completely destroyed is ridiculous, there should be some form of balance here.

Rock paper scissors is balance and what Anet was going for with PVP.
Good job pointing out that they got it right.

Gw2 the game with dedicaded ranged, melee and a holy trinity. Oh, wait.

If you don’t get it Cosmic then there is no point in further explaining things to you, sorry.

The circle is more like Guardian rolls Ranger, Ranger rolls Necro, Necro rolls Guardian. Way to not understand. Grd is a boon job, necro can destroy those and melt the grd, necro is pretty weak if you just kite it and range it down, like any half decent rng could do, but rng doesnt do enough damage to get through the grds boons and dies to its low damage output and retaliation. Get it now? This is how the game is balanced.

Are you talking about 1v1 here? Cus l0l you couldn’t be more wrong.

Ya, a decent guardian will faceroll all that crap, but whatever, thats obviously the designed intention.

Also I would like to point everyone to this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Ranger-Longbow-5-Needs-nerfed/first#post1951191
And I’d like to warn the OP, to watch his cries for nerfs, cause it can come back and bite him in the butt.

Benjamin.7893:

selan.8354:

Haldunius.7864:

Arpheus.6918:

Retal is still hitting alot too hard in zerg vs zerg.
Easy solution. 1 sec ICD or at least make it 0.5 sec ICD so that you cant kill yourself in 5 sec.
For me the solution to this problem: don’t ever use longbow any more. I won’t get many badges that way as other classes do but at least I survive. I rather go melee – I will survive it easier than staying at 1500 range using barrage.

This has to be changed. Really.

Easy solution – learn mechanics of game and stop QQ’ing about some of the most easily avoided damage in the game. It’s the only enemy boon you can control.

Similarly confusion is the only enemy condition you can control.

There’s a common theme here. Both things require you to be bad to lose.

very much agree with this. i got killed by retaliation maybe 3 or 4 times and i have played my mesmer for over 1700 hours. a glamour mesmer by him self is not op at what people cried about was when multiple glams attacked together, but hey if u put 10 necros into hills lordsroom, everyone that enters is dead, 10 thiefs can if coordinated wipe a group bigger than them, 10 hammerwarriors bybye hp and hello death, 10 guardians same thing, 10 eles very quick death too.
the thing about confusion and retaliation is a l2 kitten ue.

Cus as a mesmer you don’t suffer from retal at all. Your only multiple attack hit (blurred frency) makes you completely invulnerable from all dmg even retal (in contrast to thieves pistol whip for example) not to mention shatters remove boons etc. But yeah, it’s obviously a l2p problem… gosh people on this forum.

not true at all. every attack i put out lest say i used feedback if i hit multiple targets and some of them have retal active i get hit pretty hard too.same with shatters

wish.1027:

Benjamin.7893:

wish.1027:

Benjamin.7893:

wish.1027:

Benjamin.7893:

Retal should be changed simple as. The fact that some of the strongest aoe (for example necro wells) take no damage from retal while other classes aoe (for example grenade barrage) get completely destroyed is ridiculous, there should be some form of balance here.

Rock paper scissors is balance and what Anet was going for with PVP.
Good job pointing out that they got it right.

Gw2 the game with dedicaded ranged, melee and a holy trinity. Oh, wait.

If you don’t get it Cosmic then there is no point in further explaining things to you, sorry.

The circle is more like Guardian rolls Ranger, Ranger rolls Necro, Necro rolls Guardian. Way to not understand. Grd is a boon job, necro can destroy those and melt the grd, necro is pretty weak if you just kite it and range it down, like any half decent rng could do, but rng doesnt do enough damage to get through the grds boons and dies to its low damage output and retaliation. Get it now? This is how the game is balanced.

Are you talking about 1v1 here? Cus l0l you couldn’t be more wrong.

Ya, a decent guardian will faceroll all that crap, but whatever, thats obviously the designed intention.

Also I would like to point everyone to this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Ranger-Longbow-5-Needs-nerfed/first#post1951191
And I’d like to warn the OP, to watch his cries for nerfs, cause it can come back and bite him in the butt.

First person to ever complain about longbow, want a cookie?

Cosmic.6047:

Retaliation damage = 198.45 + (0.075 * Power) PvE

66% of this in PvP / WvW

Do you still not get that the problem isn’t the actual damage.

It is that certain skills – not necessarily hard hitting skills – take way more damage due to doing a lot of hits. Damage that could never have been intented.

Talking to brick walls here. Have fun with the melee train meta only countered by a barely played necro, cya.

Retaliation is powerful against rapid-firing pew pew attacks, somewhat useless against the deadly bursty attacks. Guardians, does that sound balanced?

Chaba.5410:

Retaliation is powerful against rapid-firing pew pew attacks, somewhat useless against the deadly bursty attacks. Guardians, does that sound balanced?

Its fine, it makes it good against some stuff, and bad against some stuff, thereby giving the rock paper scissors balance.

Retaliation is more than fine.It looks to me instead that engineers an rangers and other classes that have 600 different ticks per skill/second in a very short time are broken an you should ask anet to fix them instead not ask to nerf a perfectly working boon.
Also taking a backstab for 10 k and hiving only 350 damage back from retal is a joke.So it prolly needs a buff in that direction if you look at it from the other side.

graverr.6473:

Retaliation is more than fine.It looks to me instead that engineers an rangers and oyher classes that have 600 different ticks in a very short time are broken an you should ask anet to fix them instead not ask to nerf a perfectly working boon.
Also taking a backstab for 10 k and hiving only 350 damage back from retal is a joke.So it prolly needs a buff in that direction.

A Guardian who takes 10k backstabs should L2P. Also, thieves kill themselves with their autoattack and heartseeker spam into the brick wall that is a well played guardian. Retaliation is fine as it is.

wish.1027:

A Guardian who takes 10k backstabs should L2P. Also, thieves kill themselves with their autoattack and heartseeker spam into the brick wall that is a well played guardian. Retaliation is fine as it is.

Because only guardians have retaliation and god forbid you play with your brain instead of spamming skills with quickness like a robot right ?And cuz also getting 10 k damage in oneshot from stealth is a l2 kitten ue not a game ballance fiasco

graverr.6473:

wish.1027:

A Guardian who takes 10k backstabs should L2P. Also, thieves kill themselves with their autoattack and heartseeker spam into the brick wall that is a well played guardian. Retaliation is fine as it is.

Because only guardians have retaliation and god forbid you play with your brain instead of spamming skills with quickness like a robot right ?And cuz also getting 10 k damage in oneshot from stealth is a l2 kitten ue not a game ballance fiasco

My glass cannon thief regularly crits guardians with backstab for 6k or less, 6k being super high for someone with good defense and protection up, and my guardian regularly takes that from backstab. I think you just need to stop wearing berserker gear and then complaining that you get facerolled stupid fast.

wish.1027:

graverr.6473:

wish.1027:

A Guardian who takes 10k backstabs should L2P. Also, thieves kill themselves with their autoattack and heartseeker spam into the brick wall that is a well played guardian. Retaliation is fine as it is.

Because only guardians have retaliation and god forbid you play with your brain instead of spamming skills with quickness like a robot right ?And cuz also getting 10 k damage in oneshot from stealth is a l2 kitten ue not a game ballance fiasco

My glass cannon thief regularly crits guardians with backstab for 6k or less, 6k being super high for someone with good defense and protection up, and my guardian regularly takes that from backstab. I think you just need to stop wearing berserker gear and then complaining that you get facerolled stupid fast.

1. I never mentioned 10 k hits on a guardian,especially not mine
2.More classes have access to retaliation ,if not from own source than from allies.
3.Can we move along now ?

graverr.6473:

1. I never mentioned 10 k hits on a guardian,especially not mine
2.More classes have access to retaliation ,if not from own source than from allies.
3.Can we move along now ?

We’ve been talking about guardians specifically, and if if they were fine with the way it works. You said something about taking 10k damage and having 350 returned. If you follow whats going on, youd see that everyone thinks you mean guardian, especially since its the class that is known as having tons of easy access to retaliation.

3. sure, Lets get back to talking about how ranger needs nerfed.

You can’t actually just wait until retal runs out though. A smart group will wait until you release barrage before shouting retaliation. And after a certain point, you cannot stop barrage anymore.

Still think it’s fair though. And Anet probably can’t make barrage cancellable without it turning into a channel skill.

yriafelc.6124:

You can’t actually just wait until retal runs out though. A smart group will wait until you release barrage before shouting retaliation. And after a certain point, you cannot stop barrage anymore.

Still think it’s fair though. And Anet probably can’t make barrage cancellable without it turning into a channel skill.

Make it channeled or make it proc less hits,or whatever idk im not an expert of rangers or engies.

Also if people agreed that waiting 10 sec trough 25 stacks of confusion or instadeath was fine ,i thing waiting trough a boon that does 350 damage to you is really not a big problem If anyone even does that ever Lol

I kind of dont like the retaliation nerf, but apperently some builds (that i dont play) cant play at all vs retaliation. so instead of just nerfing it without solving the problem and also making retaliation vs other builds kinda bad, why not just add a cooldown? cant take retaliation damage more then once every half a second. problem solved?

Taking 20k is a small price to pay for doing 200k+.
If anything ranger needs the nerf.

BlueViking.7105:

I kind of dont like the retaliation nerf, but apperently some builds (that i dont play) cant play at all vs retaliation. so instead of just nerfing it without solving the problem and also making retaliation vs other builds kinda bad, why not just add a cooldown? cant take retaliation damage more then once every half a second. problem solved?

What class are you again? I need to know which class to get nerfed next because its ‘unfair’

graverr.6473:

It looks to me instead that engineers an rangers and other classes that have 600 different ticks per skill/second in a very short time are broken an you should ask anet to fix them instead not ask to nerf a perfectly working boon.

This is my point (and the point of the OP). The problem is with the way retaliation procs on certain rapid-fire weak damage skills in certain professions compared to bursty high damage skills. The OP was asking for the way retaliation procs to be changed rather than just the 33% reduction.

wish.1027:

Chaba.5410:

Retaliation is powerful against rapid-firing pew pew attacks, somewhat useless against the deadly bursty attacks. Guardians, does that sound balanced?

Its fine, it makes it good against some stuff, and bad against some stuff, thereby giving the rock paper scissors balance.

And the question would be, was that what Anet had in mind when designing Retaliation?

You’re now noticing how often Retaliation backlashes you with the UI changes. Pre-patch, Retaliation did 33% more damage; you just didn’t know because the combat log is terrible.

Retaliation needs an internal cooldown to normalize it versus every Profession. It doesn’t make any sense why some Professions absolutely destroy themselves vs. it (Engineers using Grenade Barrage) while others aren’t affected as much.

Nokaru.7831:

You’re now noticing how often Retaliation backlashes you with the UI changes. Pre-patch, Retaliation did 33% more damage; you just didn’t know because the combat log is terrible.

Retaliation needs an internal cooldown to normalize it versus every Profession. It doesn’t make any sense why some Professions absolutely destroy themselves vs. it (Engineers using Grenade Barrage) while others aren’t affected as much.

You hitting more than one target and paying the price for it.
Don’t push mindless buttons and watch the buffs and/or debuffs on you.
They added them for a reason !

Because it’s easy to pick out the 10×10 pixel boon icon on those 3-5 people with retaliation up in the middle of a 20-man zerg before you press the attack button only once. Practically speaking, of course.

Chaba.5410:

Because it’s easy to pick out the 10×10 pixel boon icon on those 3-5 people with retaliation up in the middle of a 20-man zerg before you press the attack button only once. Practically speaking, of course.

Well you can figure it out fast enough when you see the numbers pop right? That fixes it and makes it easy to notice.

wish.1027:

Chaba.5410:

Because it’s easy to pick out the 10×10 pixel boon icon on those 3-5 people with retaliation up in the middle of a 20-man zerg before you press the attack button only once. Practically speaking, of course.

Well you can figure it out fast enough when you see the numbers pop right? That fixes it and makes it easy to notice.

I seem to be having trouble communicating the idea that it’s a one-shot deal with certain skills. You see the numbers pop and you’re dead. There is no “oh I better stop hitting this button” option. Nor is there an “oh kitten I need to dodge/block” option. The only choice you have with those skills is to not use them in the first place, which is opposite of design intent.

Consider it this way. If there were a profession weapon skill that one-shot downed players, everyone would consider that to be pretty OP. When there’s a profession weapon skill that one-shot downs self, that’s OP too.

@Wish
The problem is still there that neither ranger nor engineer can use their most potent skills while other classes can. No other class gets killed by one spell/skill.

And by the time the first grenades reach the ground you have already thrown one or two more grenades which means you might be dead even if you stop immediately.
But either way. Rangers and Engineers need to be able to use these skills. You cannot forbid them to use them which you do with retaliation as it is now.
It is as if necro killed himself by using his wells and marks or a warrior killed himself by using one 100b or whatever. You get my point. These classes would complain too.
And Rangers/Engineers anyways need to become better for WvW zergs. They are considered to most useless classes in WvW and retaliation is one reason for this.

So the ultimate solution: 0.5 sec internal cooldown
2nd solution: 10-15% incoming dmg is thrown back. That would be great also against thieves and other hard hitting classes and would treat every class the same

How Anet wants to fix that is their decision anyways. I just hope they will make fast hitting skills usable

Cosmic.6047:

You hitting more than one target and paying the price for it.
Don’t push mindless buttons and watch the buffs and/or debuffs on you.
They added them for a reason !

Yes, I fired one AoE on zerg that was completely oblivious to my existence but manage to do half my health in damage from Retaliation “just cause.” Good luck picking out who does and doesn’t have Retaliation against an army of 40+.

When you cast Feedback on an enemy zerg, it should be detrimental to them. It barely matters to them though, and most of the time I notice the Mesmer just lose half of their health due to that boon. You can’t strip it reliably either because Boon removal doesn’t nearly keep up with how frequently Retaliation can be applied.

Retaliation will never be balanced in WvW until it gets an internal cooldown. 5-target limit favors the zerg, and limitless damage potential on Retaliation also supports it.

Nokaru, don’t you understand? Theres suppose to be no counter to a zerg, atleast in Anets eyes.

Nokaru.7831:

Cosmic.6047:

You hitting more than one target and paying the price for it.
Don’t push mindless buttons and watch the buffs and/or debuffs on you.
They added them for a reason !

Yes, I fired one AoE on zerg that was completely oblivious to my existence but manage to do half my health in damage from Retaliation “just cause.” Good luck picking out who does and doesn’t have Retaliation against an army of 40+.

When you cast Feedback on an enemy zerg, it should be detrimental to them. It barely matters to them though, and most of the time I notice the Mesmer just lose half of their health due to that boon. You can’t strip it reliably either because Boon removal doesn’t nearly keep up with how frequently Retaliation can be applied.

Retaliation will never be balanced in WvW until it gets an internal cooldown. 5-target limit favors the zerg, and limitless damage potential on Retaliation also supports it.

First of all, if you’re getting Retaliation damage, rest assured you are dealing much more damage to the Guardian…I have never dealt damage below 300 unless it’s condition. It’s a give and take mechanic, remember that. So let us say you are a Staff Elementalist, and your Meteor Storm hit a Guardian with 2 meteors of 2k damage each (4k), you only get 600 damage back. Simple enough.

Now, let us say, you are still a Staff Elementalist, and you hit two Retal Guardians with the same damage. That means you deal 4k damage to both Guardians…and you receive 1,200 damage.

Now, let’s say you really are having a bad day, and you manage to hit 5 Retal Guardians in a single AOE of Meteor Storm. Assuming the same damage. You deal 4k damage to each Guardian, and you receive 3,000 damage. I hope you’re still following me.

In this example, 5 Retal Guardians didn’t even out damage you. You dealt 20k damage in Meteors, to their 3k total to you. Wow, Retaliation OP? Do the math.
Assuming you only hit 2k Meteor Storm, we all know Meteors can do more than that wink wink. Even then, even if 3k goes back to you, you’re far from critical level of HP unless SOMETHING ELSE HITS YOU, at 3,000 damage, a glass Staff Ele has around 14k HP. Retaliation makes AOE’ers pay a little bit, but not enough to WTFPWN them on its own, just enough to make them not SPAM it mindlessly.

Retaliation is as limitless as any other damage related mechanic in the game, for as long as your player is alive, you can dish out limitless amounts of damage. I can cast Wells and Marks with my Necromancer and not stop getting numbers as long as I’m alive for instance, if that’s what your logic is following. Then I suppose Necromancer together with the rest of the other Professions have limitless damage potential as well provided they’re alive. I’m not sure what you’re getting at there.

If you were implying that Retaliation can magically stack up to insane figures, then here’s a reality check. It does 300 damage to your 18-22k HP, that is 1% of your HP. Assuming you’re not glass cannon of course. This means, Retaliation will have to hit you 100 times to down you. Provided you won’t heal. That OP’ness you’re referring to cannot down you even if it hit you 99 times without you healing LOL. Wow, some OP skill huh? It’s actually insulting on your part…because wow, apparently, this kind of damage rocks your boat.

Generally, speaking, at least confusion was stackable and indeed stung if a Mesmer is good enough to know how to stack effectively. Retaliation doesn’t stack, so it’s just 300 after 300, you’re scared of that kind of damage? OMG. I’m more scared fighting off Hyleks, Quaggans, and Ogres than a Retal Guardian hitting me with 300s…that I’m certain.

People, are lazy thinkers sometimes. Personally, I don’t have any attachment to any specific build, I play all 8 professions. But it gets my attention once in a while when people speak out of their behinds just because they have a hard time coping. I suppose it’s a natural thing that I will never adapt to. That’s all.

Retaliation itself should not be touched at all .IF they added a cooldown on it it would be completely useless against high burts classes.350 damage per tick lol u mad ? No.Players should use brains when fighting it and pay attention to buffs and the 5 man aoe cap pretty much makes sure you dont oneshot yourself ,cuz you can only hit max 5 ppl duuuh!Not limitless like some dream.

Ranger barrage and engineer grenades/flamethrower skills are ecxceptions and they are the problem here.Anet should fix how these skills proc too much retaliation and make it proc less not ruin retaliation wich is already stupidly low damage on big damage slow shots.

No one ever can oneshot himself even if fighting 5 ppl ,at max u can take 1.5-2kish damage from 5 hit targets(aoe cap).If a class has skills that can hit 5 targets per 0.1 second making that 50 targets per second means pretty much they have broken mechanics and those skills should be asked to be looked into not boons.