Guild Wars 2

Is it against the rules for someone to have a second account and use it to spy on/sabotage a rival WvW server? If so how would one go about reporting this type of activity?

I don’t even know how you could prove it even with fraps. Do you just accept that this person will burn all of your supply at every camp/tower/keep every night or what and try to fond uses for it before they do?

No it’s not against the rules.

You cannot force another player not to “burn” supply. You can kindly ask and if they refuse to listen there is not much you can do.

ArenaNet created achievements like repair master and siege building master and some people really want to get them so you can’t really ruin their fun unless you take the supply first.

There are also those players that waste supply on building “flame ram shrines” and other sort of nonsense. Are we going to report those players too now. No.

Thanks, thats all I needed to know. This guy was taking the exact same route to each objective and starting worthless upgrades, building exactly 2 golems at the camp. He would start at the camp and build 2 golems, go to the keep and start a worthless upgrade, go to the next camp and start an upgrade. Then go back to the fist camp and build 2 more golems and start the exact same route over and over.

I think it was a bot but can’t be sure. He must have wasted a ton of gold with all of the golems/upgrades he was doing. All it did was make for a frustrating time with no supply on reset night.

He also would not respond to any whispers. Usually if someone is doing something like building a shrine or something they will tell you to leave them alone, I can play the way I want. Which that is fine with me. But no response after like 20 whispers asking what we should do with the golems, I will report you if you dont stop, and so on seems odd to me.

If there is no rule against it then I guess we just deal with it. We will find a way around it.

I wasn’t going to report anyone, I was just asking.

I spy with my little eyes……….

Fuzzion.2504:

I spy with my little eyes……….

A red guy telling blue?

Ruprect.7260:

Thanks, thats all I needed to know. This guy was taking the exact same route to each objective and starting worthless upgrades, building exactly 2 golems at the camp. He would start at the camp and build 2 golems, go to the keep and start a worthless upgrade, go to the next camp and start an upgrade. Then go back to the fist camp and build 2 more golems and start the exact same route over and over.

I think it was a bot but can’t be sure. He must have wasted a ton of gold with all of the golems/upgrades he was doing. All it did was make for a frustrating time with no supply on reset night.

He also would not respond to any whispers. Usually if someone is doing something like building a shrine or something they will tell you to leave them alone, I can play the way I want. Which that is fine with me. But no response after like 20 whispers asking what we should do with the golems, I will report you if you dont stop, and so on seems odd to me.

If there is no rule against it then I guess we just deal with it. We will find a way around it.

I wasn’t going to report anyone, I was just asking.

Well you could report them for botting if you think it’s highly likely they are a bot. Just remember ArenaNet has that warning about false report so take that into consideration.

Is it a bot or is it a stubborn player that wants to buy upgrades that might seem worthless to you but are of value to him or her?

Well at least he’s building golems, you could move them somewhere and save them for later. And that’s the thing with golems, they are community property so whoever jumps into one can do as they please with it even when others beg them to get out etc…

Actually spying and sabotage is 100% legal. Since it is on an alternative account you have no way to link it to that player’s original account. Since you cannot ban someone for “playing dumb”, you cannot ban spies and saboteurs.

It is unfortunate but it is what it is.

Isaac.6041:

Ruprect.7260:

Thanks, thats all I needed to know. This guy was taking the exact same route to each objective and starting worthless upgrades, building exactly 2 golems at the camp. He would start at the camp and build 2 golems, go to the keep and start a worthless upgrade, go to the next camp and start an upgrade. Then go back to the fist camp and build 2 more golems and start the exact same route over and over.

I think it was a bot but can’t be sure. He must have wasted a ton of gold with all of the golems/upgrades he was doing. All it did was make for a frustrating time with no supply on reset night.

He also would not respond to any whispers. Usually if someone is doing something like building a shrine or something they will tell you to leave them alone, I can play the way I want. Which that is fine with me. But no response after like 20 whispers asking what we should do with the golems, I will report you if you dont stop, and so on seems odd to me.

If there is no rule against it then I guess we just deal with it. We will find a way around it.

I wasn’t going to report anyone, I was just asking.

Well you could report them for botting if you think it’s highly likely they are a bot. Just remember ArenaNet has that warning about false report so take that into consideration.

Is it a bot or is it a stubborn player that wants to buy upgrades that might seem worthless to you but are of value to him or her?

Well at least he’s building golems, you could move them somewhere and save them for later. And that’s the thing with golems, they are community property so whoever jumps into one can do as they please with it even when others beg them to get out etc…

Yeah, I don’t want to report someone unless I was sure they were botting, and I am not 100% sure. We did use the golems jus to get rid of them.

Appreciate the responses, guess we will see if this guy does it again. I am going to try to cantact this persons guild though.

CHIPS.6018:

Actually spying and sabotage is 100% legal. Since it is on an alternative account you have no way to link it to that player’s original account. Since you cannot ban someone for “playing dumb”, you cannot ban spies and saboteurs.

It is unfortunate but it is what it is.

Kaining???, are you sending sabateurs/spies at us…lol…jk

Being there is no way to prove it, I guess we will just deal. I am not even sure if this guy was a spy/saboteur or just a troll.

If people waste supplies on purpose its griefplay and should be send with screenshots to the support. We have that case on German servers regulary and the GMs will act if enough screenshots reach the costumer support.

Isaac.6041:

You cannot force another player not to “burn” supply. You can kindly ask and if they refuse to listen there is not much you can do.

ArenaNet created achievements like repair master and siege building master and some people really want to get them so you can’t really ruin their fun unless you take the supply first.

There are also those players that waste supply on building “flame ram shrines” and other sort of nonsense. Are we going to report those players too now. No.

Heil the flame ram !

oh well if people have to play like this…
Why would someone go through all that trouble over a game?It is really dumb to spy.We have people logging into our TS, our server forums, our guild forums….we had a spy putting down a port below our feet and when we got attacked we thought that was our port out, but we actually landed on a very small part near a cliff where 20 people already stacked with might were awaiting us….spies and saboteurs are really annoying. Only weak players would seek advantage in such a thing…

In any game I’ve played where it’s possible to grief and ruin things for everyone else, you can and should report for it. This just seems like common sense to me but I was curious so I went and googled it:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

21. You may use the Guild Wars 2 reporting system within the Game to alert the company to in-game issues such as inappropriate behavior, offensive names, the perceived use of a “bot,” or other misconduct. […]

22. While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching.

Zephyrus.9680:

In any game I’ve played where it’s possible to grief and ruin things for everyone else, you can and should report for it. This just seems like common sense to me but I was curious so I went and googled it:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

21. You may use the Guild Wars 2 reporting system within the Game to alert the company to in-game issues such as inappropriate behavior, offensive names, the perceived use of a “bot,” or other misconduct. […]

22. While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching.

wow, i should have done my homework right then…Anet please give me more options to report…botting just isnt doing much…ther should be an option to add a comment like we have it here in the forums

selan.8354:

Zephyrus.9680:

In any game I’ve played where it’s possible to grief and ruin things for everyone else, you can and should report for it. This just seems like common sense to me but I was curious so I went and googled it:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

21. You may use the Guild Wars 2 reporting system within the Game to alert the company to in-game issues such as inappropriate behavior, offensive names, the perceived use of a “bot,” or other misconduct. […]

22. While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching.

wow, i should have done my homework right then…Anet please give me more options to report…botting just isnt doing much…ther should be an option to add a comment like we have it here in the forums

22 applies to PvP only not WvW hence the term “leeching” or afking in a pvp match. WvW is different. Plenty of players afk there constantly or are there to use crafting stations/trading post.

No it doesn’t. WvW is obviously “Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay”.

Of course leeching is irrelevant in WvW and the “this also includes” means it includes sPvP leeching in the category. Not exclusive.

Spying/sabotage is not “participating in matches in good faith”. It would take a pretty big twist to convince yourself otherwise, even if you’re a perpetrator?

Same with “inappropriate behavior”, “other misconduct”, and “match manipulation”.

I don’t see how they can make it anymore clear than that without extending it to 100 pages for every conceivable and inconceivable offense that no one would ever read.

As far as them not being able to tell… all it takes is them to watch the player/review evidence, and an IP check to confirm. It’s really not that hard for them.

Isaac.6041:

selan.8354:

Zephyrus.9680:

In any game I’ve played where it’s possible to grief and ruin things for everyone else, you can and should report for it. This just seems like common sense to me but I was curious so I went and googled it:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

21. You may use the Guild Wars 2 reporting system within the Game to alert the company to in-game issues such as inappropriate behavior, offensive names, the perceived use of a “bot,” or other misconduct. […]

22. While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching.

wow, i should have done my homework right then…Anet please give me more options to report…botting just isnt doing much…ther should be an option to add a comment like we have it here in the forums

22 applies to PvP only not WvW hence the term “leeching” or afking in a pvp match. WvW is different. Plenty of players afk there constantly or are there to use crafting stations/trading post.

why would u get defensive over that?hmmmm….interesting.but no it is clearly stated PVP they didnt specify SPVP and wvw is clearly pvp!

Aberrant.6749:

As far as them not being able to tell… all it takes is them to watch the player/review evidence, and an IP check to confirm. It’s really not that hard for them.

very true it is pretty easy to find out like that.

Zephyrus.9680:

In any game I’ve played where it’s possible to grief and ruin things for everyone else, you can and should report for it. This just seems like common sense to me but I was curious so I went and googled it:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

21. You may use the Guild Wars 2 reporting system within the Game to alert the company to in-game issues such as inappropriate behavior, offensive names, the perceived use of a “bot,” or other misconduct. […]

22. While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching.

Huh. Thanks for this. I am going to try to contact the guild before I do anything though. If I don’t hear from them or I see this person doing it again I will defenitely report this in more detail than just a report for botting.

We got people throwing arrow carts at the door, while commanders were building rams. Similarly we got people throwing rams next to catapults. Spies and Saboteurs are everywhere. I hate them too but nothing we can do.

Zephyrus.9680:

No it doesn’t. WvW is obviously “Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay”.

Of course leeching is irrelevant in WvW and the “this also includes” means it includes sPvP leeching in the category. Not exclusive.

Spying/sabotage is not “participating in matches in good faith”. It would take a pretty big twist to convince yourself otherwise, even if you’re a perpetrator?

Same with “inappropriate behavior”, “other misconduct”, and “match manipulation”.

I don’t see how they can make it anymore clear than that without extending it to 100 pages for every conceivable and inconceivable offense that no one would ever read.

We have seen ArenaNet use the term PvP exclusively for sPvP and NOT for WvW.

The examples are all throughout their game update notes where they make certain changes for PvP (they use the term PvP to refer to sPvP) and the changes do not affect WvW/PvE.

So 22 does not apply to WvW.

Spying and sabotage is allowed. Killing your teammates in the Eternal Battlegrounds jumping puzzle is allowed. Taking slots in WvW so you can do the jumping puzzle instead of fighting other players is allowed. Partying with enemy players is allowed.

Talking with enemy players is allowed. Guesting on enemy server’s in lions arch (and other PvE locations) so you can boast and brag is allowed. Buying multiple guild wars accounts is allowed. Multiboxing is allowed as long as each account is personally controlled by the player (and not macros/bots). Reading “enemy” movements, map/team chat on your 2nd account and conveying that information to your “primary” account’s server is therefore allowed.

spies/saboteurs is technically legal, only that it is MORALLY questionable…..

Isaac.6041:

Zephyrus.9680:

No it doesn’t. WvW is obviously “Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay”.

Of course leeching is irrelevant in WvW and the “this also includes” means it includes sPvP leeching in the category. Not exclusive.

Spying/sabotage is not “participating in matches in good faith”. It would take a pretty big twist to convince yourself otherwise, even if you’re a perpetrator?

Same with “inappropriate behavior”, “other misconduct”, and “match manipulation”.

I don’t see how they can make it anymore clear than that without extending it to 100 pages for every conceivable and inconceivable offense that no one would ever read.

We have seen ArenaNet use the term PvP exclusively for sPvP and NOT for WvW.

The examples are all throughout their game update notes where they make certain changes for PvP (they use the term PvP to refer to sPvP) and the changes do not affect WvW/PvE.

So 22 does not apply to WvW.

Spying and sabotage is allowed. Killing your teammates in the Eternal Battlegrounds jumping puzzle is allowed. Taking slots in WvW so you can do the jumping puzzle instead of fighting other players is allowed. Partying with enemy players is allowed.

Talking with enemy players is allowed. Guesting on enemy server’s in lions arch (and other PvE locations) so you can boast and brag is allowed. Buying multiple guild wars accounts is allowed. Multiboxing is allowed as long as each account is personally controlled by the player (and not macros/bots). Reading “enemy” movements, map/team chat on your 2nd account and conveying that information to your “primary” account’s server is therefore allowed.

The wiki does not agree with you though:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP

It clearly says ‘World versus World’ is considered as one of the PvP modes in Guild Wars 2.

I believe rule 22 affects WvW too in the sense that Anet does encourage players to actively participate with good intention. If by ‘good intention’ means that players should not disrupt other people’s game experience, then spying and sabotaging are a big no.

Multi-boxing is allowed, yes, but if one multi-boxes to other server just to excessively boast/drain supply/purposely chose silly keep-tower upgrades/whatever that affect other people’s game experience in a bad way, then these kinds of multi-boxing are not allowed.

The problem is that it’s really hard to tell the good from the bad, also considering that there are many that fall in between. Hence, we should not blatantly encourage other players that spying/sabotaging is allowed, so that they will not rely on these methods to have advantage.

just report with screen shots if its not reportable y ou should get a warning so yeah .

I doubt it is too big of a deal. Yes, people could do it, but you really need a life if you want to spy on another server. I’m sure there are some who fall into that category, but it is a very small minority.

As for misplacing siege, how do you know it isn’t just griefer on your own server. You know, like people who put up their commander tags when in the jp.

Mr T here burns about 1000 supplies and turns our keep into a flame ram shrine about twice a day. Usually right before there is an attack on it. Is it against any rules? Who knows. I guess at least you can take comfort in the fact that it happens on many servers, not just yours.

style.6173:

I doubt it is too big of a deal. Yes, people could do it, but you really need a life if you want to spy on another server. I’m sure there are some who fall into that category, but it is a very small minority.

As for misplacing siege, how do you know it isn’t just griefer on your own server. You know, like people who put up their commander tags when in the jp.

There are definitely some group that use spies (i.e. a mesmer will successfully be hidden in a keep for an hour, then a commander will call out for the mesmer, and suddenly there is a new sweep going on the keep, before the commander even moves to towards the keep). Whether or not it is illegal shouldn’t matter. No guild should ever use spies. All it does is just encourage ZvZ faceslamming and ruins a lot of the fun. But it is normally fairly obvious when one side has a spy, and it can be easily tested. I’ve seen tests where people fake call out about a friendly mesmer in a keep, or asking in map chat how a ninja is doing, and you can sometimes see the enemy zerg disengage from you and make a bee-line to that place. Fairly funny

I wish a dev would comment on it, though in the long run, there is nothing they can do to tell if someone is in fact spying, or how to enforce it.

You would need to actually prove that person is a spy, which is almost impossible. Even if they say “yes I’m a spy” it means little to nothing, they could be trolling you, they could be joking, or they just may not like you and thats the answer you get. You may hear them admit it in a VOIP but then its your word against theirs, and how many people have tried to trash another players rep/account with BS because they just didn’t like the person, over the years in MMO’s.

Aside from Anet showing up at their house and witnessing them doing it, you cannot prove they are a spy.

Its crappy but theres not a whole lot anyone can do to prove it.

Sure they can. If a report is sent in, and enough people indicate it’s the same player, an anet guy can go into game, without tags, and monitor the player … They’d know exactly where they were on map, etc … There were incidents of this happening to one guild, many many players put in reports which wound up in accounts getting banned. Whether those reports were just a mass trolling or not is neither here nor there. Anet does take action, although to be fair to them they can only go by what they’re fed. And I have heard the accounts that got banned were monitored in-game by untagged anet folks for a week or so.

I would personally send in reports and images and let anet decide what to do … Enough people indicating the same player and I would suspect action would be taken by an untagged anet guy at least checking it out.

Isaac.6041:

No it’s not against the rules.

BS this is griefing when said player is building siege to cap so you cant build anything. This is griefing and is a bannable offense ANET needs to address this pronto.

Jayne.9251:

Sure they can. If a report is sent in, and enough people indicate it’s the same player, an anet guy can go into game, without tags, and monitor the player … They’d know exactly where they were on map, etc … There were incidents of this happening to one guild, many many players put in reports which wound up in accounts getting banned. Whether those reports were just a mass trolling or not is neither here nor there. Anet does take action, although to be fair to them they can only go by what they’re fed. And I have heard the accounts that got banned were monitored in-game by untagged anet folks for a week or so.

I would personally send in reports and images and let anet decide what to do … Enough people indicating the same player and I would suspect action would be taken by an untagged anet guy at least checking it out.

I find this hard to believe, this is why … Anet would not have come on and said to anyone “hey thanks for putting in all those reports, we logged in tagless and followed said person around for a week and then decided to ban them”.

I think someones blowing smoke up your bum, or they have an unfounded opinion of what happened and ppl ate it up like cake.

Typically A gaming company would announce something along the lines of “we have procedures in place to track the individual(s) under suspicion. If they are found to be exploiting the game in a way that is unintended, we will take action that could result in suspension(s), and or permanant ban(s) dependant on the sevarity of the situation”.

It would also typically be posted somewhere for all to read (such as the forum or main paige of their webby) as this is meant to prevent it from happening before it happens. In the case of actual bans, its very rare a company will tell you the process they used, once people know how they track certain things, then someone will find a way to avoid it.

I could be wrong but I’m finding your post hard to swallow.

But none the less its still a pretty crappy thing to do.

Nuzt.7894:

Jayne.9251:

Sure they can. If a report is sent in, and enough people indicate it’s the same player, an anet guy can go into game, without tags, and monitor the player … They’d know exactly where they were on map, etc … There were incidents of this happening to one guild, many many players put in reports which wound up in accounts getting banned. Whether those reports were just a mass trolling or not is neither here nor there. Anet does take action, although to be fair to them they can only go by what they’re fed. And I have heard the accounts that got banned were monitored in-game by untagged anet folks for a week or so.

I would personally send in reports and images and let anet decide what to do … Enough people indicating the same player and I would suspect action would be taken by an untagged anet guy at least checking it out.

I find this hard to believe, this is why … Anet would not have come on and said to anyone “hey thanks for putting in all those reports, we logged in tagless and followed said person around for a week and then decided to ban them”.

I think someones blowing smoke up your bum, or they have an unfounded opinion of what happened and ppl ate it up like cake.

Typically A gaming company would announce something along the lines of “we have procedures in place to track the individual(s) under suspicion. If they are found to be exploiting the game in a way that is unintended, we will take action that could result in suspension(s), and or permanant ban(s) dependant on the sevarity of the situation”.

It would also typically be posted somewhere for all to read (such as the forum or main paige of their webby) as this is meant to prevent it from happening before it happens. In the case of actual bans, its very rare a company will tell you the process they used, once people know how they track certain things, then someone will find a way to avoid it.

I could be wrong but I’m finding your post hard to swallow.

But none the less its still a pretty crappy thing to do.

Any company getting multiple reports about a single user will investigate. Because they designed the game/software it’s fast and efficient to locate the person complained,about in game to investigate. Other mmos I’ve played I’ve had a gm magically appear beside me in game to resolve a petition, etc. because they have the technology to track and trace.

I’m suggesting if this kind of griefing is going on (and face it, that’s what it is) they have the ability to monitor and subsequently ban. Enough complaints about one user and they have the documentation to start determining a course of action.

Again, let anet decide how to handle it. Submit your reports and let them deal with it from there. But DO submit the reports.

ANET doesn’t give a rats kitten about their game hence the reason why Orr has been broken for the last week making what the winters day ecto fiasco did to the economy pale in comparison why should they care about bots/griefers in wvwvw maxing out map siege with flame rams in keep destroying any sense of competition with no way to combat this type of behavior.

This game is dead to me the only thing I’m holding out for is the next one maybe even considering going back to an old one atleast they have GM’s that can monitor this kind of crap.

Jayne.9251:

Nuzt.7894:

Jayne.9251:

Sure they can. If a report is sent in, and enough people indicate it’s the same player, an anet guy can go into game, without tags, and monitor the player … They’d know exactly where they were on map, etc … There were incidents of this happening to one guild, many many players put in reports which wound up in accounts getting banned. Whether those reports were just a mass trolling or not is neither here nor there. Anet does take action, although to be fair to them they can only go by what they’re fed. And I have heard the accounts that got banned were monitored in-game by untagged anet folks for a week or so.

I would personally send in reports and images and let anet decide what to do … Enough people indicating the same player and I would suspect action would be taken by an untagged anet guy at least checking it out.

I find this hard to believe, this is why … Anet would not have come on and said to anyone “hey thanks for putting in all those reports, we logged in tagless and followed said person around for a week and then decided to ban them”.

I think someones blowing smoke up your bum, or they have an unfounded opinion of what happened and ppl ate it up like cake.

Typically A gaming company would announce something along the lines of “we have procedures in place to track the individual(s) under suspicion. If they are found to be exploiting the game in a way that is unintended, we will take action that could result in suspension(s), and or permanant ban(s) dependant on the sevarity of the situation”.

It would also typically be posted somewhere for all to read (such as the forum or main paige of their webby) as this is meant to prevent it from happening before it happens. In the case of actual bans, its very rare a company will tell you the process they used, once people know how they track certain things, then someone will find a way to avoid it.

I could be wrong but I’m finding your post hard to swallow.

But none the less its still a pretty crappy thing to do.

Any company getting multiple reports about a single user will investigate. Because they designed the game/software it’s fast and efficient to locate the person complained,about in game to investigate. Other mmos I’ve played I’ve had a gm magically appear beside me in game to resolve a petition, etc. because they have the technology to track and trace.

I’m suggesting if this kind of griefing is going on (and face it, that’s what it is) they have the ability to monitor and subsequently ban. Enough complaints about one user and they have the documentation to start determining a course of action.

Again, let anet decide how to handle it. Submit your reports and let them deal with it from there. But DO submit the reports.

I don’t deny it happens, I also don’t deny that Anet should take action and players should definately report it.

Don’t believe everything you read/hear from random players. Gaming companies have procedures just like every other business in the world, they tend not to discuss these procedures with consumers for obvious reasons.

So I hope actions were taken, but don’t hold your breath as I said in my original post its next to impossible to prove.

Example #1 … I’m a spy … does that make it true and should I be banned ?

Example #2 … I’m going to report you daily for a month (not really) for being a spy, should you be banned ?

You gave a fictional story to backup your other post, I call it fictional because what you posted would not have happened. Giving someone a reason to investigate and proving fault is two completely different things. Gaming companies reserve the right to ban whomever whenever, but thats not smart business.

Example #3 … If I sit at the portal area for the next week while I watch some TV, does that make me a spy ?

I hope your seeing how impossible it is to determine if someone is indeed spying, my gf also has an account, she plays on a different server (which has been an enemy server) so should one of us be banned do to IP ?

I could go on but I’m hoping you get the point.

Spying/sabotage isn’t against the rules. I thought this was obvious……..

“Spying/sabotage is not “participating in matches in good faith”. It would take a pretty big twist to convince yourself otherwise, even if you’re a perpetrator?”

Welcome to the world of 007

All’s fair in love and war

Yes this is a game, but it’s a fact that spying & counter-spying, spreading misinformation is perhaps the most important part of rl warfare. And it’s real people playing this game.

“ kitten sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto” “I am a human being, I consider nothing that is human alien to me.”

The game itself provides enough lore to make a solid case spying is perfectly acceptable. All i need to say is “Order of Whispers” However much you want to, you cannot seperate WvWvW from the PvE lore.

It’s a very fine line, yes again it’s a game, but you also take on the role you like, if i like the role of an “order of whispers” agent as a PvE-er and i become a WvWvW spy, am i not staying in character, true to the provided lore and am i not participating in good faith for the server i’m spying for. Think about this however immoral you may feel spying is.

The main problem is to determine in game terms what is manipulation, what is grieving and what is acceptable spying behaviour as part of the game of war.

Unacceptable would be to burn supplies building siege equipment at places where they are completely useless and have no purpose at all. For instance Rams at walls or inside the keep, at the supplie camp, anywhere but in front of the gate etc. There should be a way to stop that if it’s spotted. And a good way would be to have a commander tag that player so he cannot take supplies for X amount of time. You deprive the enemy from supplies by attacking supplie camps and dollyaks.

(again, it’s a very fine line, but sneakily putting down a cata, or arrowcart just out of reach of the enemy walls during a siege is an entirely different matter, sneaky, but imho perfectly acceptable for a spy)

Unacceptable and match manipulation would be for a complete guild to transfer or group be paid and go into WvWvW and then do nothing. Depriving others a spot to fight or force them into queu.

Acceptable (And be honoust to yourself, this is a good one)
selan.8354 wrote

“we had a spy putting down a port below our feet and when we got attacked we thought that was our port out, but we actually landed on a very small part near a cliff where 20 people already stacked with might were awaiting us….”

-This is good, and if it happened to me, yes i’d be kitten angry without a doubt, but i would also laugh and congratulate them on a well planned trick/ambush. That’s the kind off action eventually you look back at, and think. Why did’nt we think of this. Imho that’s a noteworthy lol moment. Next time you send one person in first before the rest follows. Or you make sure you only take the portal put down by a trustworthy mesmer.

This being said, I would never be a spy for another server, it’s something i cannot associate with and combine with how i imagine the classes and characters i play to be, for instance i could never play or even want to play a thief/assassin like character i have nothing with that kind of class characters. Though i did join the “Order of Whispers” in my personall story but that’s just because at that time i thought the orders armor to be the only one coming somewhere close to good looking compared to the rest.

proving someone is a spy is pretty much impossible, its so easy to just invite yourself to a party with the enemy commander if you know him and follow the zerg, because he will see the blue dot moving over the map, thus knowing where the zerg is, however I do think that people placing flamerams at stupid places should be seen as breaking the rule as in match manipulation,
yesterday we sieged up SM at the inner, had 4 ac at all gates except one, because someone built 4 flame rams at the place where the ac should be, and strangely enough we got attacked at that gate (north east), and what server who plays as green would attack the north east gate?\

also, if you see people grabbing supplies from stuff that is upgrading or see someone buying a wrong upgrade, first give him a pm to see if its just someone new to WvW, and if that doesn’t work, in my opinion that person can be seen as a griever, however I can not say what Arena Net opinion is on this.

All is fair in love and war.

Vayle.7964:

proving someone is a spy is pretty much impossible, its so easy to just invite yourself to a party with the enemy commander if you know him and follow the zerg, because he will see the blue dot moving over the map, thus knowing where the zerg is, however I do think that people placing flamerams at stupid places should be seen as breaking the rule as in match manipulation,
yesterday we sieged up SM at the inner, had 4 ac at all gates except one, because someone built 4 flame rams at the place where the ac should be, and strangely enough we got attacked at that gate (north east), and what server who plays as green would attack the north east gate?\

also, if you see people grabbing supplies from stuff that is upgrading or see someone buying a wrong upgrade, first give him a pm to see if its just someone new to WvW, and if that doesn’t work, in my opinion that person can be seen as a griever, however I can not say what Arena Net opinion is on this.

I haven’t seen this person since last reset so….. Will wait to see what happens on reset this week. I did PM this person numerous times, I actually followed him around PM’ing him for about a half hour while I was on camp defense. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt at fist (maybe he did not speak English) but after watching him for all this time and seeing that he was intentionally going from one place to the next doing things that seemed to be purposefully wrong and then starting all over and doing it again for what was probably 3-4 hours, I became suspicious. If someone was PMing me in another language I would at least respond with a no comprende or something so they know I am not a bot.

Even if it’s not against the rule, I really hope those spies just to stay quiet and pay some respect to their enemies. Because when I see this, I cannot help feeling disgusted.

And i did not take all the rams in this one picture.

Isaac.6041:

We have seen ArenaNet use the term PvP exclusively for sPvP and NOT for WvW..

Please explain why the WvW forum is a subforum under PvP Discussion?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp

Synda Raines.1836:

All’s fair in love and war

Yes this is a game, but it’s a fact that spying & counter-spying, spreading misinformation is perhaps the most important part of rl warfare. And it’s real people playing this game.

The main problem with the “spying is part of real wars too” attitude is that in real life, you can capture/execute spies, in-game you have absolutely zero recourse against spies once discovered.

As for sabotaging, It’s pretty straightforward griefing. Unfortunately its very hard to prove with screenshots alone.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Synda Raines.1836:

All’s fair in love and war

Yes this is a game, but it’s a fact that spying & counter-spying, spreading misinformation is perhaps the most important part of rl warfare. And it’s real people playing this game.

The main problem with the “spying is part of real wars too” attitude is that in real life, you can capture/execute spies, in-game you have absolutely zero recourse against spies once discovered.

As for sabotaging, It’s pretty straightforward griefing. Unfortunately its very hard to prove with screenshots alone.

That is the unfortunate thing, even with a video it would be hard to prove. This person could just be doing what they think is best but really have no idea what they are doing. I feel for the guys with the flame ram builders, at least our saboteur was building golems, they were useless at the time but we used them up anyway. Flame rams are not able to move and can’t be destroyed in a keep/tower unless you let it be taken. I really don’t understand what is fun about trolling/sabotaging/spying on another server. It really just ruins the experience for everyone.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Synda Raines.1836:

All’s fair in love and war

Yes this is a game, but it’s a fact that spying & counter-spying, spreading misinformation is perhaps the most important part of rl warfare. And it’s real people playing this game.

The main problem with the “spying is part of real wars too” attitude is that in real life, you can capture/execute spies, in-game you have absolutely zero recourse against spies once discovered.

Agree. But also I don’t get the idea about comparing it with real wars because we play the game just for fun. I would rather treat WvW as sport.

TLSolomon.6083:

Mr T here burns about 1000 supplies and turns our keep into a flame ram shrine about twice a day. Usually right before there is an attack on it. Is it against any rules? Who knows. I guess at least you can take comfort in the fact that it happens on many servers, not just yours.

He had siege maxed last night to the point that we could not drop any siege “except golems” even all the way on the other side of the map.

Espionage & sabotage are natural aspects of war.

Annoying yes, but I don´t see the problem, if WvWvW is a simulation of a 3 sided war spies and saboteurs are inevitable.

Please stop comparing spies and sabatoge in WvW to real life war. We all know what happens when a spy gets caught in enemy territory. Give me the in game option to kill spies in WvW and THEN things will be comparable.

TLSolomon.6083:

Please stop comparing spies and sabatoge in WvW to real life war. We all know what happens when a spy gets caught in enemy territory. Give me the in game option to kill spies in WvW and THEN things will be comparable.

It would be fun if you could catch a spy put him on trial in game and if they were guilty it would delete their character.

Nuzt.7894:

You gave a fictional story to backup your other post, I call it fictional because what you posted would not have happened. Giving someone a reason to investigate and proving fault is two completely different things. Gaming companies reserve the right to ban whomever whenever, but thats not smart business.

Lol, I think you just like to argue And how are you so certain it wouldn’t happen?

I was avoiding naming the guild and server because I have a lot of respect for these folks and those who have paid close attention to these forums know who I’m talking about anyhow. It wasn’t fictional, and the bans were real and taken from WvW. They reported seeing anet-tagged players following their zerg for a full week before it happened.

I’ve been in game and fighting merrily along in WvW next to someone and then suddenly they pop an anet tag, whereas before they were guildless, or in another guild. They do send anet folks into game, I imagine both for diagnosing bug issues but also to monitor. If these guys are seeing griefing going on while they’re in there, they’re going to flag their own guys, too. The guy next to you in WvW could be an anet dev.

But they don’t even have to do that, which is my point. They can simply use tracking systems to monitor player behaviour and determine if griefing was invovled or not. It’s not hard to see transaction history, for example, of buying ‘merchants’ over and over again, nor is it hard to see 100 rams being built repeatedly, and no other activity by that player. It’s harder if the player just stands at spawn and does nothing but relay info back to their team, but I imagine because anet owns the software, they could easily monitor and review chat logs too. But I’d think they wouldn’t start doing that unless a complaint was received.

But the onus is on us the players to report this stuff. Out of the thousands of players in game, it’s like a needle in a haystack, unless they’re pointed in the right direction.