Guild Wars 2

People saying that servers should take a week off really don’t understand how the rating system works.

If ArenaNet continues to ignore the obvious problems, there is only one solution that will allow all of us to have a competitive matchup, and at the same time provide an opportunity for a server to move out of T8. We have to do it ourselves. How? Simple…some people and guilds need to move off of SF and onto ET / FC (more needed for FC). This will balance the populations in T8, allow for a competitive matchup, and once ET and FC scores come up to a resonable level, it will be possible for one server to score enough points to move.

We’re stuck where we are because people on SF transferred there in the hopes of having a massive population differential and getting easy wins. This is the end result of that mentality. You win the battles, but lose the war (you’ll never get out of T8, no matter how lopsided it gets).

Everyone trying to create the most lopsided matchup possible and end up on the winning side worked for some servers, but SF got stuck without a chair when the music stopped. A new strategy is needed.

Fozzik makes a pretty good point. Although, who’d get which random SF Guild?
You could split both CoSA sets evenly, with one per other server. Or you could send us
KING and Seed. Hand LH to ET, that may become an even 3-way spread.
Although, let’s be honest here. As far as any of us know, SF Guilds are just as stubbornly loyal to their server as we are to our own. In addition, I’m sure that
any of our three servers have their own special flavour of internal strife. What happens if we mix the ingredients?

I agree, people are likely loyal to their server at this point and don’t want to change. It’s just that I see no other alternative. I seriously doubt that people are going to transfer in large numbers from higher tiers to play on ET or FC (despite our best recruiting efforts :-D). More transfers to SF will make no difference, because as crazy as it sounds, winning consistently by huge margins is the best way to keep things exactly as they are.

If people want a change, they have to be willing to move from SF to ET/FC to even out the fight… they have to be willing to lose some weeks and actually work for their wins. That’s the only way Tier 8 becomes a fun matchup for everyone, and the only way a server (who knows which one) will ever get to move up a tier.

Unless, of course, ArenaNet does something to fix the problems. I wouldn’t hold my breath.

Runamok.9638:

I didn’t take a week off when getting steamrolled by servers that actually could steamroll us 24/7, which SF is completely incapable of doing. I could personally could less if SF stays or leaves in T8. I am not a whiner about SF having superior numbers kinda guy. I play for the competition and I can do that against anyone. The less than favorable odds make the fights even that much more interesting for me. That’s why a lot of players still on ET have not jumped ship long ago. The fair weather fans left long ago.

So sorry furnance you gotta earn your way outa the glicko ghetto, no handouts from me nor do I expect others in ET would really jive with that from my experience. See you rallied with your troops earning points one cap at a time!

Wish I could do more than +1 this. This is a great attitude to take in WvW, and the only reason I remain in SF, as waaaay back, we were getting steamrolled 24/7, and I maintained an attitude akin to yours. I didn’t have to maintain that attitude nearly as long as you have, so I just wanted to pop in and post my respect. Keep up the good fight!

Okay, let’s say part of SF moved to FC and ET long enough for SF to tier up. Then what? Every from SF moved back because they reached their goal of tiering up. Then the same problem occurs for whichever server is the new rank 22.

Venn.7623:

Ungood.3054:

Venn.7623:

Jeknar.6184:

WildBoy.3562:

I’m tired of being bullied by SF and ET we lose every week and every time we attack something we normally fail. They outnumber us greatly and we always have the outnumbered boon but it gives no help what so ever

ET doesn’t outnumber FC as bad as SF does… I’m sure SF can outnumber ET+FC.
Also until 2 weeks ago your server was better than ET. The only real problem at T8 is SF.

^ SF has the WvW numbers to cover all the maps lol..

How did you get that from what you quoted? No one said that, or even close to it.

All he said was that you out number ET and FC and perhaps out number their combined forces, which I would believe.

If you truly believe they can’t cover all the maps, please go try to take SF’s borderlands without seeing a zerg form up to defend it while you lose your own borderlands.

I am pretty sure, other than SM, BL’s are the most protected thing on most servers….least they have been in my experience. So not really a good indicator on how much coverage we have.

The problem is that you take the 30 participants you have on a karma train, and leave no one at home to mind the store while our 10-15 “go-a-capping”.

Venn.7623:

Jeknar.6184:

WildBoy.3562:

I’m tired of being bullied by SF and ET we lose every week and every time we attack something we normally fail. They outnumber us greatly and we always have the outnumbered boon but it gives no help what so ever

ET doesn’t outnumber FC as bad as SF does… I’m sure SF can outnumber ET+FC.
Also until 2 weeks ago your server was better than ET. The only real problem at T8 is SF.

^ SF has the WvW numbers to cover all the maps lol..

In other news:

SF caused global warming, your gf/bf to cheat on you, and I am fairly certain SF is in fact; the boogieman.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Venn.7623:

Ungood.3054:

Venn.7623:

Jeknar.6184:

WildBoy.3562:

I’m tired of being bullied by SF and ET we lose every week and every time we attack something we normally fail. They outnumber us greatly and we always have the outnumbered boon but it gives no help what so ever

ET doesn’t outnumber FC as bad as SF does… I’m sure SF can outnumber ET+FC.
Also until 2 weeks ago your server was better than ET. The only real problem at T8 is SF.

^ SF has the WvW numbers to cover all the maps lol..

How did you get that from what you quoted? No one said that, or even close to it.

All he said was that you out number ET and FC and perhaps out number their combined forces, which I would believe.

If you truly believe they can’t cover all the maps, please go try to take SF’s borderlands without seeing a zerg form up to defend it while you lose your own borderlands.

I am pretty sure, other than SM, BL’s are the most protected thing on most servers….least they have been in my experience. So not really a good indicator on how much coverage we have.

The problem is that you take the 30 participants you have on a karma train, and leave no one at home to mind the store while our 10-15 “go-a-capping”.

what

sf can have 30 people in a karma train + 10-15 people elsewhere in at least 2 other maps for like 2/3rds of the day

fc and et can pick one of those… at best. except on reset night, and maybe thru the weekend.

and youre trying to make it sound like we dont use our people effectively enough…?

insanemaniac.2456:

what

sf can have 30 people in a karma train + 10-15 people elsewhere in at least 2 other maps for like 2/3rds of the day

fc and et can pick one of those… at best. except on reset night, and maybe thru the weekend.

and youre trying to make it sound like we dont use our people effectively enough…?

That’s exactly what he’s doing… Denying the undenyable…

SF have more people on most of the time. Period.

D W.5179:

Runamok.9638:

I didn’t take a week off when getting steamrolled by servers that actually could steamroll us 24/7, which SF is completely incapable of doing. I could personally could less if SF stays or leaves in T8. I am not a whiner about SF having superior numbers kinda guy. I play for the competition and I can do that against anyone. The less than favorable odds make the fights even that much more interesting for me. That’s why a lot of players still on ET have not jumped ship long ago. The fair weather fans left long ago.

So sorry furnance you gotta earn your way outa the glicko ghetto, no handouts from me nor do I expect others in ET would really jive with that from my experience. See you rallied with your troops earning points one cap at a time!

Wish I could do more than +1 this. This is a great attitude to take in WvW, and the only reason I remain in SF, as waaaay back, we were getting steamrolled 24/7, and I maintained an attitude akin to yours. I didn’t have to maintain that attitude nearly as long as you have, so I just wanted to pop in and post my respect. Keep up the good fight!

Agreed, I like that attitude also. I just do not like him trying to state “facts” about our server when he knows nothing about us.

Just an idea I have been thinking about, I think it was mentioned on another post. The idea was that if one server is winning by a certain amount of points that the two losing servers become allies and can go into each others fort’s, see them, share a chat channel, and unable to attack one another’s forts until the point spread becomes more even. I, personally, favor this idea and would like it to implemented with modifications of course.

insanemaniac.2456:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Venn.7623:

Ungood.3054:

Venn.7623:

Jeknar.6184:

WildBoy.3562:

I’m tired of being bullied by SF and ET we lose every week and every time we attack something we normally fail. They outnumber us greatly and we always have the outnumbered boon but it gives no help what so ever

ET doesn’t outnumber FC as bad as SF does… I’m sure SF can outnumber ET+FC.
Also until 2 weeks ago your server was better than ET. The only real problem at T8 is SF.

^ SF has the WvW numbers to cover all the maps lol..

How did you get that from what you quoted? No one said that, or even close to it.

All he said was that you out number ET and FC and perhaps out number their combined forces, which I would believe.

If you truly believe they can’t cover all the maps, please go try to take SF’s borderlands without seeing a zerg form up to defend it while you lose your own borderlands.

I am pretty sure, other than SM, BL’s are the most protected thing on most servers….least they have been in my experience. So not really a good indicator on how much coverage we have.

The problem is that you take the 30 participants you have on a karma train, and leave no one at home to mind the store while our 10-15 “go-a-capping”.

what

sf can have 30 people in a karma train + 10-15 people elsewhere in at least 2 other maps for like 2/3rds of the day

fc and et can pick one of those… at best. except on reset night, and maybe thru the weekend.

and youre trying to make it sound like we dont use our people effectively enough…?

Ha, no was just saying I personally have seen things turning Red on our BL, and went to your BL and quickly realized that no one was there because they were all in our BL.

Jeknar.6184:

SF have more people on most of the time. Period.

This has been my experience. Now, we certainly don’t have enough of a WvW population for complete coverage of all 4 maps. But during the majority of time slots, we most definitely have the population advantage over ET and FC.

Jeknar.6184:

insanemaniac.2456:

what

sf can have 30 people in a karma train + 10-15 people elsewhere in at least 2 other maps for like 2/3rds of the day

fc and et can pick one of those… at best. except on reset night, and maybe thru the weekend.

and youre trying to make it sound like we dont use our people effectively enough…?

That’s exactly what he’s doing… Denying the undenyable…

SF have more people on most of the time. Period.

Oh yes and ET never has a 30 man zerg on EB, with a blue BL, and a group (could be 5 or 30 for all we know) pushing on the fergs…SF has more peeps on for more of the time because we are winning, that is a fairly simple truth…The same type of observation can be made on reset night when all 3 servers are fast and furious, and as soon as things get a little green all of the sudden POOF, no more opposition.

I have had TONS of people tell me things like “ET hasnt ever had a 35 man zerg”….when we have sit and counted 25+ or so names and still have people not even rendering as a wave passes by….At this point no one can deny that SF has a larger server, just try to transfer and you will see that, the point is that for people to think that we outnumber you 2:1, or 3:1, etc is just plain wrong. Everyone, including myself, are taking the sample of time they play to make these assumptions, so I am just saying “from what I can tell, we do not outnumber you”….Now if I logged on at night when the supposed ET aussie crew is on, and thats the only time I played, I might even be on here going “how are we winning, I never can even leave my spawn, ET has way too many people” etc.

What you have is a lot of people logging in, checking the score/going to EB, seeing it all green, and going “welp guess I will go farm orr”….When in reality we are sitting over in EB going “man where is everyone, who is here?” and we get a count of 5-10 people.

Now I am sure ET people would say, well if we showed up and started capping that 5-10 would be 50-60, it might, but more times than not lately ET runs in and caps and then removes themselves….Cant even BEGIN to tell you how many times you guys could have had the map Blue and working on SM by the time we got enough to even think about slowing you down.

If Mend and TFoR & TAC can put 35-40 people in Lang, then surely you can muster another 10 or so to go around back capping while our superior numbers face smash into your siege bombs?

King, you’re being deluded because you believe that when people go to bed they’re just QQ’ing because of green starting to win.

Now Im not completely sure, but the biggest zerg I’ve EVER seen ET have is about 20. FC has had about 20 as well, although I remember one night we had around 30. I have about a hundred screen shots of that it was so memorable.

i see 30-40 sometimes on like reset nights.. and like 5 mins later the [wz] go to _______ call hits map chat and suddenly we lose at least 1/2

Darek.1836:

King, you’re being deluded because you believe that when people go to bed they’re just QQ’ing because of green starting to win.

Now Im not completely sure, but the biggest zerg I’ve EVER seen ET have is about 20. FC has had about 20 as well, although I remember one night we had around 30. I have about a hundred screen shots of that it was so memorable.

You should come back to the server so you know…But when we go to bed ET has people on at night or something…I wouldnt know because you know, I really dont try to talk about stuff that goes on when I am not around…

King Amadaeus.8619:

Darek.1836:

King, you’re being deluded because you believe that when people go to bed they’re just QQ’ing because of green starting to win.

Now Im not completely sure, but the biggest zerg I’ve EVER seen ET have is about 20. FC has had about 20 as well, although I remember one night we had around 30. I have about a hundred screen shots of that it was so memorable.

You should come back to the server so you know…But when we go to bed ET has people on at night or something…I wouldnt know because you know, I really dont try to talk about stuff that goes on when I am not around…

ET zergs get more than 20 people easily. I see ET and FC zergs both with more than 20 people almost daily, and usually in their borderlands. I believe the ET nightcap PvDoor zerg crew is generally around 35 minimum, based off of what I’ve seen/heard.

If you’ve never seen an ET zerg of 20 plus you probably don’t play much wvw…

Look we all know SF has the highest population, can we stop trying to pretend ET and FC have no people at all? It’s flat out embarassing at this point. Yes you are out numbered a lot of the time, that doesn’t mean its 5 vs 50 cmon now.

Just last night you had a zerg bigger than that, I know for a fact it was higher than twenty.

The match up sucks, we all know it. It’s not helping anyone when you flat out lie/are in denial about the numbers disparity. We sure do have higher numbers, if we are as disorganized and terrible as you imply you shouldn’t be getting slaughtered every day.

Be real.

The other day, there was maybe from 3 to 8 people from SF on the FC BL and we held greenbriar and their garrison by splitting our forces into two (so about 3 at greenbriar and 2 at the garrison). They even built 2 trebs at greenvale to take greenbriar and 3 of us took both of them down. All that while having the outmanned buffed.

I get it, you’re outmanned a lot of the time, but numbers isnt always the solution, you guys need to look at yourselves before blaming your loss on numbers only. I dont see how 3-8 of us can hold 20-30 of you if numbers=wins.

Pizz.3698:

The other day, there was maybe from 3 to 8 people from SF on the FC BL and we held greenbriar and their garrison by splitting our forces into two (so about 3 at greenbriar and 2 at the garrison). They even built 2 trebs at greenvale to take greenbriar and 3 of us took both of them down. All that while having the outmanned buffed.

I get it, you’re outmanned a lot of the time, but numbers isnt always the solution, you guys need to look at yourselves before blaming your loss on numbers only. I dont see how 3-8 of us can hold 20-30 of you if numbers=wins.

Trust me, you didn’t. You probably held 10-15 at the best.

Darek.1836:

Trust me, you didn’t. You probably held 10-15 at the best.

That’s still about 3-4 times our numbers

I have notice ET has been having a lot of potential points during the mornings in Eastern Standard Time, maybe that’s the reason why FC is behind ET now.

Runamok.9638:

I do not feel the matchup is really as lopsided/frustrating as everyone makes it out to be. …. Having cut my teeth during the great ET WvW descent this matchup seems positively peachy vs. many others we have been through along the road. This is not to say a little variety would not be nice. Enjoy the ride and all the battles along the way!

Finally someone gets it…

Advent.6193:

Well, Runamok: it’d be nothing but honest to say that Kaineng is/was a beast of another stripe. If I tended towards having game-induced nightmares, then the combo of DR/Kain’d definitely cause one. As for SF “choosing” to stick around in T8, remember how much had to go on – from our tier and others – for DR or Kain to escape the Black Hole of Glicko T8.
Can any of us actually blame SF at this point? I wouldn’t. Hell, sometimes it’s hard
enough for my FC self to bother. SF after the Devona/Kain Pain-Train? Ouch. Just.
Plain. Ouch. As I’ve said in other threads like this one, I keep at it because I’m just a
stubborn S.O.B.
The part what sucks is, we’d pretty much have to have SF max out for a week or two, and someone in T7 get beat into the bloody turf for the same period of time. If only
to create the needed upward pull to get ‘em out of T8. This is why folk have suggested
-many times- that ANet may wish to add a “ratings floor.” As we stand now, FC/ET’s
ratings are low enough that they vampirically devour the positive ratings SF would
logically gain in another tier, with their weeks of tailkicking.

Well said, and before I was ET I was NSP, and I can tell you DR used to own us…ET/FC thinks they are getting zerged by SF? DR used to just roll about 50 people over us at will, it was brutal….And that was all after you would sit in queue for 10-15 minutes to get into EB…So it wasn’t a numbers issue only, we had the people….

I do not pretend to know coding, or game design etc…But I do know about processes, and I do know about making things improve and identifying the things that are major problems, it’s what I do for a living….With that being said, if everyday single at ANET HQ, if there isn’t a discussion about the gaping holes this system is creating, then frankly this game will lose its WvW core players. This is a GLARING issue…T8 is a symptom of the larger issue, which is that from what I can tell with a rudimentary understanding of the system, is that to get a new matchup you have to not only beat your opponents, you have to embarrass them (score-wise). Then on top of that, you have to hope at some level they roll over and let the differential in points soar. Then, you have to hope that some poor sap server in the tier above you gets and reacts to this same type of treatment. This is a poor system, any systems that works well for some, and terrible for others needs refinement.

I think if ANET had 50-60 servers this would likely not be so pronounced and I think the system might work better, but more and more I see people from other tiers saying “it’s not just T8, it’s bad for us as well”…I am sure there are many solutions, but if the number of servers doesn’t change, and the system doesn’t change then a hard reset every month, and randomizing the new matchups would be my suggestion…The problems would still be there, but you would get new match-ups every 4-5 weeks at least.

Why do you guys think that getting SF out and HoD in will make any difference? It will just be more of the same if not worse with a different server.

Ruprect.7260:

Why do you guys think that getting SF out and HoD in will make any difference? It will just be more of the same if not worse with a different server.

That is why we want the problem FIXED. If you win by so much for so long there should be some movement.

Ruprect.7260:

Why do you guys think that getting SF out and HoD in will make any difference? It will just be more of the same if not worse with a different server.

How can you tell? HoD never been down here…

@ruprect

we dont know that

however, evidence suggests itll be a better match:

-sf got a big boom in population after getting trapped, likely imo due to it just being a very high pop server that finally got a somewhat balanced looking match and disgruntled people and new pve recruits trying again finally
-hod complains about having 4 people on at times, a problem we can relate to…
-and, sf stompings are comparable to dr, a server that rose about 3 tiers when they finally escaped t8.. suggesting that anything below dr is probably a better fit for a match in t8 than sf

a lot of the misunderstanding probably stems from people seeing a servers rating and not possibly thinking it could be wrong. fc and et are 600 and by god they belong there and nowhere else until they get transfers. and by god sf beeeeeeeelongs at ~950. for sure.

that isnt true. sf belongs 350 above et and fc. but that is the limit of what glicko can measure with only 3 competitors in the subsystem. we cant tell if hod belongs 400 above fc and et, because they dont fight.

insanemaniac.2456:

@ruprect

we dont know that

however, evidence suggests itll be a better match:

-sf got a big boom in population after getting trapped, likely imo due to it just being a very high pop server that finally got a somewhat balanced looking match and disgruntled people and new pve recruits trying again finally
-hod complains about having 4 people on at times, a problem we can relate to…
-and, sf stompings are comparable to dr, a server that rose about 3 tiers when they finally escaped t8.. suggesting that anything below dr is probably a better fit for a match in t8 than sf

a lot of the misunderstanding probably stems from people seeing a servers rating and not possibly thinking it could be wrong. fc and et are 600 and by god they belong there and nowhere else until they get transfers. and by god sf beeeeeeeelongs at ~950. for sure.

that isnt true. sf belongs 350 above et and fc. but that is the limit of what glicko can measure with only 3 competitors in the subsystem. we cant tell if hod belongs 400 above fc and et, because they dont fight.

Excellent, that was a good answer.

I am going based on my experience and usually when we drop down we dominate for a week or 2. Or vice versa, when a T1 server drops down they usually dominate.

What you are saying makes sense then.

Heh. A poster in one of these threads recently hit upon an extremely good concept for fixing this kind of situation. Namely, dropping the barrier between NA/EU servers. As such, then Glicko has 17 Tiers to calculate matches with, and this might just provide the combination of volatility and stability ANet seems to be looking for. Honestly, it seems as if it would make sense. Especially when one considers that many EU folk speak English, and there’d be less of a language barrier involved. If we NA servers can (and indeed do) coordinate with people from various sectors of the planet – as is – then, why is there a separation in servers, at all?

Advent.6193:

Heh. A poster in one of these threads recently hit upon an extremely good concept for fixing this kind of situation. Namely, dropping the barrier between NA/EU servers. As such, then Glicko has 17 Tiers to calculate matches with, and this might just provide the combination of volatility and stability ANet seems to be looking for. Honestly, it seems as if it would make sense. Especially when one considers that many EU folk speak English, and there’d be less of a language barrier involved. If we NA servers can (and indeed do) coordinate with people from various sectors of the planet – as is – then, why is there a separation in servers, at all?

ANet has already gone on record as saying that NA and EU servers are separated because there would be too much lag if they were not. Whether that is true or not may be debatable, but you can’t simply ignore the physics of the longer paths and the additional packet exchanges that are necessary. Remember that ANet uses a merged-server concept for WvW … capacity is shared among all servers no matter which realm you are on. Having NA and EU combined would result in a LOT of transoceanic traffic as all that capacity was being juggled real time.

Would there be an issue with resetting the ratings and then having a few weeks where no movement happens so the new ratings can build back up and then adjust accordingly?

I don’t have crazy in depth knowledge of the glicko system but it’s obviously flawed so I’m genuinely curious.

A fair answer, Cactus. I suppose it’d also be too problematic to instead add more servers to the mix on both sides? After all – IIRC – EU’s T9 has the same problem at our T8. More servers would also give Glicko additional parameters to calculate with.
From what I’ve seen, forum-wise, the major issue is one of: not enough input for the
system to work properly with, thus it has trouble handling things like fast population
shifts.
Another idea would be to recalibrate the system based on average WvW population.
That would at least account for servers with a skewed PvE/Wv3 balance, I would think.

I’ve tried to consider this entire topic (unbalanced matches, tier-locking, stale matchups) from all angles, and the only conclusion I ever get is that server-vs-server-vs-server is a doomed concept. It isn’t ever going to work the way players want it to. The only hope I can see for WvW for the long haul is for ANet to revamp it to one of two things:

-1. a battlegroup concept where servers are grouped together based upon active server populations

-2. an instanced type of match where players (or guilds) queue up independent of which server they are on

Battlegroups make more sense for long matches that retain server/guild/friend identity with broader strategic content, while instances work better for shorter matches (daily?) and narrower strategies.

TESO plans to go the massive battlegroup route where ALL players will able to be active on the same map at the same time, with factions being determined by which class you elect to play. In that scheme balanced matches are more likely as long as all of the classes are more or less equally attractive to roll … something a game designer would want to do anyway.

ANet says that they already merge server capacity for WvW so it seems to me that they could convert to a battlegroup concept if they wanted to … but I doubt they will.

The instance thing they had in GW1, Faction Battles. Set population limit, you went to an area and entered the queue with a group. Then 3-4 (I forget) groups from each Faction fought over control points, both around the map and in structures in the middle.

I LOVE the concept of open world warfare though.

Harbinger.9645:

Would there be an issue with resetting the ratings and then having a few weeks where no movement happens so the new ratings can build back up and then adjust accordingly?

I don’t have crazy in depth knowledge of the glicko system but it’s obviously flawed so I’m genuinely curious.

I’m afraid that would not work at all. The Glicko-2 system assigns points based upon the competency of the competition you faced. If you faced only the same servers for a few weeks the Glicko-2 system would have no way at all of figuring out where you rank against any server outside your own tier. It would represent the ultimate in tier-locking.

Besides, while ANet’s application of the Glicko-2 system to a tiered competition is indeed hugely flawed, the root problem is and will always be that WvW player populations are so greatly different from one server to another. There is no way that ANY ranking system will give even matches in such an environment. ANet clearly did not expect this to be the case … but it is, and they will have to do something about it if anything is going to change for the better.

Advent.6193:

A fair answer, Cactus. I suppose it’d also be too problematic to instead add more servers to the mix on both sides? After all – IIRC – EU’s T9 has the same problem at our T8. More servers would also give Glicko additional parameters to calculate with.
From what I’ve seen, forum-wise, the major issue is one of: not enough input for the
system to work properly with, thus it has trouble handling things like fast population
shifts.
Another idea would be to recalibrate the system based on average WvW population.
That would at least account for servers with a skewed PvE/Wv3 balance, I would think.

I don’t know if they really would need mores servers, and keep in mind that server capacity is already merged for WvW. You aren’t using a unique piece of hardware when you play WvW … you and everyone else is being spread around as needed. However, splitting players up into more “servers” (realms) and therefore creating more tiers would indeed help the balance and staleness issues. I’m not sure what other problems that might create, though, for things like PvE for example.

As I said above, though, I think the simplest change would be to turn WvW into a battlegroup type of match. Just my opinion …

Cactus, I think that your analysis is based on the assumption that population imbalance continues to contribute as much to the disparity as it currently does. (That is population > skill, all of the time.) I believe that there are smaller (not small, but not redo all of WvWvW) changes that could be made which would help reduce to the impact of raw population.

The unreasonable example I use to show that this is indeed possible: they could drastically reduce the size of the WvWvW queue to a number like 5. Obviously no one would want this, but it would provide a better competitive banding of servers. Certainly queue caps are something they could look at manipulating, although it has some severe side-effects on frustrating players who are excluded by the queue.

A more reasonable example would be to dynamically adjust the the AoE cap. Less players=greater number AoE targets. Again, I think this will probably result in seriously unfun play, but it may hint a direction.

In any event, I throw these things out there not because I think they’re the answer (I think they’re not) but to give people more ideas to chew on.

JaironKalach.4938:

Cactus, I think that your analysis is based on the assumption that population imbalance continues to contribute as much to the disparity as it currently does. (That is population > skill, all of the time.) I believe that there are smaller (not small, but not redo all of WvWvW) changes that could be made which would help reduce to the impact of raw population.

The unreasonable example I use to show that this is indeed possible: they could drastically reduce the size of the WvWvW queue to a number like 5. Obviously no one would want this, but it would provide a better competitive banding of servers. Certainly queue caps are something they could look at manipulating, although it has some severe side-effects on frustrating players who are excluded by the queue.

A more reasonable example would be to dynamically adjust the the AoE cap. Less players=greater number AoE targets. Again, I think this will probably result in seriously unfun play, but it may hint a direction.

In any event, I throw these things out there not because I think they’re the answer (I think they’re not) but to give people more ideas to chew on.

Yeah, I agree that there may be things that could be done to mitigate the impact of raw numbers, but as you say … some of those would make the game less than fun and others could probably be gamed (players temporarily manipulating the population profiles). In general, I think that player caps are a bad idea … the best way to turn people off from anything is to prevent them from participating in it when they want to or are otherwise able to.

Personally, I think an overhaul of WvW is desirable anyway. ANY format gets stale after a while, but I think there are ways to prevent that if ANet wanted to get creative.

Purely as an example for discussion, what if every WvW match started with an empty map and a random spawn point for each team. No camps, no towers, no keeps, and no Stonemist in EB. Every structure would require a plan (purchasable from a vendor by a commander) and need to be built just like siege does now. Supply would come from large ore deposits (infinite capacity but needing to be mined by players at first … NPCs later) and the ore deposits would be randomly relocated after each weekly reset. In such a scheme, scouts and groups would roam the map at reset to find ore deposits and start defending and mining. Fights would break out over ore deposits. Towers would be built over or near ore deposits for defense and for strategic proximity. Towers could be different sizes/strengths and expanded to keeps as desired. Other towers or walls would be built nearby for defense or offense. Points would be gained as a function of territory controlled, not number of structures. Structures captured would be destroyed and have to be rebuilt. Clearly I haven’t thought this entirely through, but you get the general idea.

If standard structures were used for everything, the game mechanism would not be much different from the way siege currently works, so it becomes more of a change in philosophy rather than a huge change in coding (even though I’m sure it would be significant). The basic idea would be to make everything new and different each and every match, but it might also make it easier to balance matches if, for example, servers/factions/battlegroups with lower populations were able to mine ore faster, or if their towers and keeps required less supply to build.

Then again, something like that could probably be done now. A server’s access to supply could scale with their current map population, or their supply cost to build siege could inversely scale to their current map population.

It doesn’t much matter … I don’t see ANet devoting the resources to make big changes in WvW and I suspect that TESO is going to scavenge GW2 like ants on a dead rabbit.

Ruprect.7260:

insanemaniac.2456:

@ruprect

we dont know that

however, evidence suggests itll be a better match:

-sf got a big boom in population after getting trapped, likely imo due to it just being a very high pop server that finally got a somewhat balanced looking match and disgruntled people and new pve recruits trying again finally
-hod complains about having 4 people on at times, a problem we can relate to…
-and, sf stompings are comparable to dr, a server that rose about 3 tiers when they finally escaped t8.. suggesting that anything below dr is probably a better fit for a match in t8 than sf

a lot of the misunderstanding probably stems from people seeing a servers rating and not possibly thinking it could be wrong. fc and et are 600 and by god they belong there and nowhere else until they get transfers. and by god sf beeeeeeeelongs at ~950. for sure.

that isnt true. sf belongs 350 above et and fc. but that is the limit of what glicko can measure with only 3 competitors in the subsystem. we cant tell if hod belongs 400 above fc and et, because they dont fight.

Excellent, that was a good answer.

I am going based on my experience and usually when we drop down we dominate for a week or 2. Or vice versa, when a T1 server drops down they usually dominate.

What you are saying makes sense then.

Gota love you Rik, you know just how to explain thing’s on the forums. I would love to see HOD come down. IMO FC and ET are a good fit for HOD and SF should be T7-T6. i H8 it when ppl say “Why do you wat them out anyone else wont be better” this isant true. SF had a revival after coming into T8 (Transferrs/PVE’rs getting back into WvW ect)

Not saying it will happen but IMO FC and ET will probly beat HOD (from what the forum populating is saying) but we wont find out till they come down and i want that oppertunity.

P.S. Ruprect this wasnt a dig at you and i love that you changed your view once explained to you (+1 for you ) it was aimed at players in higher tier’s that think they know the situation when they have never even had a good look into the GW2 Glicko system.

the only way SF can get out of T8 is by playing the match up politically. by that i mean slacking off a bit and let FC and ET gaining points, while at the same time maintain control not to lose points, making the delta around 5+… this process will take few weeks until FC and ET gain enough point close enough to SF, and then strike a blow out to get 100+ delta point enough to overtake HoD….

In fact, if the next week SF come out in force (with the slackers that are bored), they have a great chance of leaving…

If they don’t keep up the pressure, they will lose like 50-60 rating again…

BTW, you guys have a lot of treb blueprints to dump right? Again I see a treb in a unlikely place:

Jeknar.6184:

In fact, if the next week SF come out in force (with the slackers that are bored), they have a great chance of leaving…

If they don’t keep up the pressure, they will lose like 50-60 rating again…

BTW, you guys have a lot of treb blueprints to dump right? Again I see a treb in a unlikely place:

Jek are you the Mend female (human?) guardian with the Hood/Cowl looking head piece? If so I think I have seen you, I know Flappy is the norn female one.

And yes…that treb…we were laughing yesterday at it…sadly a commander threw it, and I still remain unsure if it was a joke or semi-serious…I know he wanted it built, but someone luckily threw a cata at the ET keep and got the wall down at lang via that route. Still was a strange place for a treb we agreed lol.

XxNuggetxX.7823:

Ruprect.7260:

insanemaniac.2456:

@ruprect

we dont know that

however, evidence suggests itll be a better match:

-sf got a big boom in population after getting trapped, likely imo due to it just being a very high pop server that finally got a somewhat balanced looking match and disgruntled people and new pve recruits trying again finally
-hod complains about having 4 people on at times, a problem we can relate to…
-and, sf stompings are comparable to dr, a server that rose about 3 tiers when they finally escaped t8.. suggesting that anything below dr is probably a better fit for a match in t8 than sf

a lot of the misunderstanding probably stems from people seeing a servers rating and not possibly thinking it could be wrong. fc and et are 600 and by god they belong there and nowhere else until they get transfers. and by god sf beeeeeeeelongs at ~950. for sure.

that isnt true. sf belongs 350 above et and fc. but that is the limit of what glicko can measure with only 3 competitors in the subsystem. we cant tell if hod belongs 400 above fc and et, because they dont fight.

Excellent, that was a good answer.

I am going based on my experience and usually when we drop down we dominate for a week or 2. Or vice versa, when a T1 server drops down they usually dominate.

What you are saying makes sense then.

Gota love you Rik, you know just how to explain thing’s on the forums. I would love to see HOD come down. IMO FC and ET are a good fit for HOD and SF should be T7-T6. i H8 it when ppl say “Why do you wat them out anyone else wont be better” this isant true. SF had a revival after coming into T8 (Transferrs/PVE’rs getting back into WvW ect)

Not saying it will happen but IMO FC and ET will probly beat HOD (from what the forum populating is saying) but we wont find out till they come down and i want that oppertunity.

P.S. Ruprect this wasnt a dig at you and i love that you changed your view once explained to you (+1 for you ) it was aimed at players in higher tier’s that think they know the situation when they have never even had a good look into the GW2 Glicko system.

I know how the glicko system works, in my experience we have never moved down and done anything but dominate. This may not be the case for T8 as I can see how the system would make it tough for a sever to move out even when dominating. I still have my doubts about anything changing but that remains to be seen.

Either way the situation in T8 sux and I hope they find a way to fix it. I know how not fun it is to be up against a wall for weeks and weeks. For as long as we have been it T2 we can only hope to fight for second. We have just been finding ways to pull out good fights and try to keep in good spirits and make a good push for second place.

GL T8

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

D W.5179:

Runamok.9638:

I didn’t take a week off when getting steamrolled by servers that actually could steamroll us 24/7, which SF is completely incapable of doing. I could personally could less if SF stays or leaves in T8. I am not a whiner about SF having superior numbers kinda guy. I play for the competition and I can do that against anyone. The less than favorable odds make the fights even that much more interesting for me. That’s why a lot of players still on ET have not jumped ship long ago. The fair weather fans left long ago.

So sorry furnance you gotta earn your way outa the glicko ghetto, no handouts from me nor do I expect others in ET would really jive with that from my experience. See you rallied with your troops earning points one cap at a time!

Wish I could do more than +1 this. This is a great attitude to take in WvW, and the only reason I remain in SF, as waaaay back, we were getting steamrolled 24/7, and I maintained an attitude akin to yours. I didn’t have to maintain that attitude nearly as long as you have, so I just wanted to pop in and post my respect. Keep up the good fight!

Agreed, I like that attitude also. I just do not like him trying to state “facts” about our server when he knows nothing about us.

Dude, I spy on your server all the time with my secondary account. That goes both ways yah know?

Runamok.9638:

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

D W.5179:

Runamok.9638:

I didn’t take a week off when getting steamrolled by servers that actually could steamroll us 24/7, which SF is completely incapable of doing. I could personally could less if SF stays or leaves in T8. I am not a whiner about SF having superior numbers kinda guy. I play for the competition and I can do that against anyone. The less than favorable odds make the fights even that much more interesting for me. That’s why a lot of players still on ET have not jumped ship long ago. The fair weather fans left long ago.

So sorry furnance you gotta earn your way outa the glicko ghetto, no handouts from me nor do I expect others in ET would really jive with that from my experience. See you rallied with your troops earning points one cap at a time!

Wish I could do more than +1 this. This is a great attitude to take in WvW, and the only reason I remain in SF, as waaaay back, we were getting steamrolled 24/7, and I maintained an attitude akin to yours. I didn’t have to maintain that attitude nearly as long as you have, so I just wanted to pop in and post my respect. Keep up the good fight!

Agreed, I like that attitude also. I just do not like him trying to state “facts” about our server when he knows nothing about us.

Dude, I spy on your server all the time with my secondary account. That goes both ways yah know?

Ya, but I do not go around trying to tell you guys thing I do not know anything about. :P

Edit: Or, wait, are you accusing me of having a secondary account? Not sure why you brought that into it?

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

Runamok.9638:

Cantur Soulfyre.5409:

D W.5179:

Runamok.9638:

I didn’t take a week off when getting steamrolled by servers that actually could steamroll us 24/7, which SF is completely incapable of doing. I could personally could less if SF stays or leaves in T8. I am not a whiner about SF having superior numbers kinda guy. I play for the competition and I can do that against anyone. The less than favorable odds make the fights even that much more interesting for me. That’s why a lot of players still on ET have not jumped ship long ago. The fair weather fans left long ago.

So sorry furnance you gotta earn your way outa the glicko ghetto, no handouts from me nor do I expect others in ET would really jive with that from my experience. See you rallied with your troops earning points one cap at a time!

Wish I could do more than +1 this. This is a great attitude to take in WvW, and the only reason I remain in SF, as waaaay back, we were getting steamrolled 24/7, and I maintained an attitude akin to yours. I didn’t have to maintain that attitude nearly as long as you have, so I just wanted to pop in and post my respect. Keep up the good fight!

Agreed, I like that attitude also. I just do not like him trying to state “facts” about our server when he knows nothing about us.

Dude, I spy on your server all the time with my secondary account. That goes both ways yah know?

Ya, but I do not go around trying to tell you guys thing I do not know anything about. :P

Edit: Or, wait, are you accusing me of having a secondary account? Not sure why you brought that into it?

Perhaps he’s confusing you with everyone’s favorite Rat?

King Amadaeus.8619:

Jek are you the Mend female (human?) guardian with the Hood/Cowl looking head piece? If so I think I have seen you, I know Flappy is the norn female one.

And yes…that treb…we were laughing yesterday at it…sadly a commander threw it, and I still remain unsure if it was a joke or semi-serious…I know he wanted it built, but someone luckily threw a cata at the ET keep and got the wall down at lang via that route. Still was a strange place for a treb we agreed lol.

Yes, i play on my Female Human Guardian for WvW. She’s using HotW armor with Guild’s Chest Piece and the Icedevil Helm (Brought on Lornar’s Pass, but there are many look alike around), and if you don’t use team colour, it’s Celestial/Abyss dyed.

Here a Old screenshot where you can see me better:

Jeknar.6184:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Jek are you the Mend female (human?) guardian with the Hood/Cowl looking head piece? If so I think I have seen you, I know Flappy is the norn female one.

And yes…that treb…we were laughing yesterday at it…sadly a commander threw it, and I still remain unsure if it was a joke or semi-serious…I know he wanted it built, but someone luckily threw a cata at the ET keep and got the wall down at lang via that route. Still was a strange place for a treb we agreed lol.

Yes, i play on my Female Human Guardian for WvW. She’s using HotW armor with Guild’s Chest Piece and the Icedevil Helm (Brought on Lornar’s Pass, but there are many look alike around), and if you don’t use team colour, it’s Celestial/Abyss dyed.

Here a Old screenshot where you can see me better:

Ahh ok, yeah I figured that was you. I used to know everyone’s toon on Mend, so I recognized them. But I think they had some leave, and several new ones join, so now I do not know as many when I see ’em.