Guild Wars 2

tagnut.8621:

Thieves are far from fine.

Its facepalmingly bemusing why ANET haven’t dealt with them yet – a 5 year old could tell you that:

- near permanent untargetable invisibility plus
- insane burst damage (5-6k steal, 5-6k cnd, 6-14k backstab) all in < 2s from invisibility plus
- as many get out jail free cards as you like plus. The mobility also makes up for medium armor and lowest healthpool in the game.
- crazy kitten mobility (bouncy bouncy heartseeker spam for 6k crits)

Its too much. Far too much.

1. Near Permastealth = No Damage
2. Only if everything crits and you are too dumb to use a stunbreaker, dodge the steal or you didnt see it coming
3. So… He’s running away = u won
4. The dps on heartseeker is way lower than the dagger #1 chain. It’s only useful for gapclosing since the Animation can be dodged quite easily

Lonny.9873:

Thieves are fine.
Most thieves using 25/30/0/0/15 can be beaten without taking a single hit from them.
I agree that the spec may be a bit too easy to use and can be frustrating to play against if you’re a noob.

Glad you’re giving such great insight to combatting a thief. You’re not calling everyone a noob at all. Oh wait…

People like you don’t help the problem. “Oh you can’t kill a thief in that spec, you’re a noob.” You’re so helpful!

Lonny.9873:

3. So… He’s running away = u won

No moron, you didn’t win. It just means he got away and he’s going to keep tagging a keep or some other objective. I see you play a thief, this is why you’re calling everyone noob and saying thieves are ok. You’re part of the problem. Instead of giving friendly advice against thieves, you call those who can’t kill them noobs? Are you stupid?

Instead of complaining about thieves everytime you got pwned why not try to suggest something usefull on how you would change the class?
of course if you don’t know anything about thieves and just like to complain and see them completely deleted from the game, do not post anything…

here’s my suggestions (coming from a thief):

1- add a very small casting time to steal (I think something from 0.2 to 0.5 sec should be ok). 0.5sec is the actual casting time for C\D while steal is an instant skill, that’s why every thief can use the combo C\D – steal – BS.
Cloack&Dagger was ever meant to be precasted before steal, that is like an exploit.. just try to fight a glass cannon thief that doesn’t use precasted C\D and you will see so many differences, if the thief is good can still win but so can you, and you can actually dodge better his combo.

2 – C\D should simply not work on walls, gate or every not animated thing, also make the revealed buff to appear everytime a thief goes in stealth mode, and not only when he actually does some dmg.
Also add 1 second at the duration of the revealed buff, from 3sec to 4 sec and of course fix the culling.

3 – this is a pve change that will work in WvW too, just improve the AI of mobs, so that when a thief goes stealth, they just don’t reset the combat. I mean at the moment with the culling problem and with the possibility of using C\D on everything, even a fly, many thieves, even myself, are using every mob on the battlefield for exploting the culling.
There are 2 solution: or remove completely every mob from WvW, or change their AI so they don’t lose aggro on the thief when he stealth and goes out of stealth. In this way the thief can still use every mob at his advantage but he will have more things shooting at him once out of stealth.

I think those 3 changes will put the thief in the right direction

Make thief like every other MMO, don’t allow stealthing in combat. What? Other MMOS’ rogue/thief classes are fine without having to stealth mid-combat every 12 secs? OMG! GW1’s assassin was a powerhouse and good at PvE and PvP and wait for it, wait for it – didn’t need stealth mid-combat every 12 secs to be good. GW2’s thief is crap compared to GW1’s assassin and every other games’ thief/rogue class.

Doomdesire.9365:

vespers.1759:

Doomdesire.9365:

purpleskies.3274:

Doomdesire.9365:

Columba.9730:

the problem is that anet has allowed perma stealth, the highest dps and the best mobility all on one class. it’s possible because culling allows permastealth without even speccing for it. that’s how he could take out those vet mobs and be perma stealthed. all we can do is to respectfully provide feedback.

Doesn’t have the highest dps. It has the highest burst(steal cnd bs) that has a 30s recharge rate. You can still cnd/bs but that wouldnt be the highest burst.

Who bursts more than a rogue using cnd and BS? I usually see a fully geared rogue hit me for 12-15k with those two alone with steal adding another 2.5-5k depending on crits. A kill shot does only about 12k to me and a shatter usually hits me for around 10-12k .

Rogues can do the BS and C&D every few seconds, and hit with BS more times if they use utilities and their heal, both warriors and mesmers have cool downs.

A full glass warrior can volley for 10K, then killshot for 12, or just switch to GS and whirling GS into them. Or you can run shield axe and evicerate. The axe autoattack is a nasty little bugger too. I’ve seen glass cannon guardians also down glass thieves(usually 10.8K-14K HP) in 3 seconds. Engi burst can also get nasty, although it might not hit more than thieves. Ele’s have 16K burst, but has a long CD. Mesmer’s also have some pretty insane shatter/furry builds that has low CDs.

Most classes can actually achieve the same amount of burst.

they also can’t go invisible every 2 seconds and run away from anything without any fear.

any other glass class is kittened against multiple opponents. thieves can take on a zerg and stop them capping a camp, or keep WPs contested by perma stealth wall hitting.

the only people who think thieves are not broken are people who play thieves and don’t want them nerfed even though they also know they are broken, and people who don’t play GW2.

And CnD wall stealth is an exploit.

oh well let me just get my printscreen out so i can screenshot it! OH WAIT they’re invisible.

also, i don’t even think comparing any glass class to a thief is relevant at this point given the fact that thieves are the only ones that can run away from anything without fear.

catch a glass cannon class with their pants down and they die to a light breeze. catch a thief and they go invis and run away. you’ll never see them again. no other glass cannon class can sneak up on you and insta gib unless you aren’t looking around. a thief is invis, so kitten you and your eyeballs.

warriors require adrenaline for their killshot, which wears off, making it useless for roaming. it also has an immobile 2-3 second cast time.

why are you even trying to compare the two?

vespers.1759:

why are you even trying to compare the two?

Because a large majority of thieves are played by morons and will try to find anything to prove their class mechanic isn’t BS. Next up: thieves will say bear ranger pets are more OP than the thief class.

Magiofdeath.2745:

vespers.1759:

why are you even trying to compare the two?

Because a large majority of thieves are played by morons and will try to find anything to prove their class mechanic isn’t BS. Next up: thieves will say bear ranger pets are more OP than the thief class.

well i guess i can understand why they want to keep their massive dmg at the press of a button. with current stealth mechanics thieves could eat a 30-40% dmg nerf and still come out on top.

then again i also don’t see the fun in having an insta win button, but that’s just me.

Columba.9730:

lLobo.7960:

purpleskies.3274:

Who bursts more than a rogue using cnd and BS? I usually see a fully geared rogue hit me for 12-15k with those two alone with steal adding another 2.5-5k depending on crits. A kill shot does only about 12k to me and a shatter usually hits me for around 10-12k

A rifle warrior, traited for ir (as a bs thief is traited for it) can hit up to more than 20k kill shots from 1500 range every 5-8secs followed by a volley of 10-15k from 1200 range. And still have more health and armor than the GC BS thief. Ah, and pierce, so if someone is on the way they are dead too…
Ah, and as a channel skill, it takes people down even if they try to go on stealth/teleport.

12k kill shot is from some group buffed balanced warrior that got the riffle as a secondary weapon.

I have a riffle warrior, and on big battles its a lot of fun. And a lot of bags.
And it has much bigger burst and sustained dps than my thief. And have group buffs!
No, it doesnt have stealth, it has range, much better tool on big group fights and sieges in Wv3.

Excepting the fact that we can see said warrior, see the long cast time shots and dodge them or move out of range.

yes and most of time in groups you are hiting yourself , guardian reflecting walls or mesmers reflecting bubbles or even ele magn aura, i have a ranger and i must be careful when i start a burst or im self killed.

Kolly.9872:

Instead of complaining about thieves everytime you got pwned why not try to suggest something usefull on how you would change the class?
of course if you don’t know anything about thieves and just like to complain and see them completely deleted from the game, do not post anything…

here’s my suggestions (coming from a thief):

1- add a very small casting time to steal (I think something from 0.2 to 0.5 sec should be ok). 0.5sec is the actual casting time for C\D while steal is an instant skill, that’s why every thief can use the combo C\D – steal – BS.
Cloack&Dagger was ever meant to be precasted before steal, that is like an exploit.. just try to fight a glass cannon thief that doesn’t use precasted C\D and you will see so many differences, if the thief is good can still win but so can you, and you can actually dodge better his combo.

2 – C\D should simply not work on walls, gate or every not animated thing, also make the revealed buff to appear everytime a thief goes in stealth mode, and not only when he actually does some dmg.
Also add 1 second at the duration of the revealed buff, from 3sec to 4 sec and of course fix the culling.

3 – this is a pve change that will work in WvW too, just improve the AI of mobs, so that when a thief goes stealth, they just don’t reset the combat. I mean at the moment with the culling problem and with the possibility of using C\D on everything, even a fly, many thieves, even myself, are using every mob on the battlefield for exploting the culling.
There are 2 solution: or remove completely every mob from WvW, or change their AI so they don’t lose aggro on the thief when he stealth and goes out of stealth. In this way the thief can still use every mob at his advantage but he will have more things shooting at him once out of stealth.

I think those 3 changes will put the thief in the right direction

this is the best post to fix this abbuse /exploit for the poor game engine, holy xit if game engine works very bad with stealth why give these non ending bonus to one class? Culling needs a dramatic fix fast!, and stealth forever either

And one of the most important things in this game its tab target , they told from betas you dont need it? well aoe’s doesnt need it but every crap 1 target skill needs it or 90% of time you fail to land that skill (see mesmers changes/nerf), how many times with ranger im using my bow and the …king shot goes to my feet?? thats a joke you know, make no tab at all . period.

The real problem I see with thieves is as follows:

Thieves can take damage while stealth, including conditions, but if they use the heal/stealth ability, it removes DoT’s. That being said, the issue I see is that it’s generally accepted that thieves/rogue classes don’t actually go invisible, rather they “hide in shadows” thru cunning and deception. It’s a little difficult if someone smacks you for 5k of damage to keep quiet and “hide in shadows” with this accepted concept of stealth.

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth. And to top this off, healing should also have a chance to remove the conditions, something to the effect of 50% chance to remove all conditions, or possibly even 100% to remove up to 3 conditions (which would probably be a better balance, as a thief against 5 players would have less of a fighting chance if multiple people DoT them up).

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

Stealth breaking on damage would negate a thief from systematically picking groups off one by one, however, 1 versus 1, or even 3 versus 1, a thief would most likely come out on top.

I am, however, curious as to how this concept of the revealed debuff would work. If this is a better proposal to fix the issues with permastealth/reset of fights, I’m all for it.

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

Really? How do you think other games’ thiefs/rogues cope? They can’t stealth mid-combat and if they can, damage breaks it. This is a weak argument. A very weak argument. Try again please.

Your quote should be “stealth breaking on damage taken would make thieves actually learn to play well without facerolling their keyboards” but I guess that would kill most players, because no skill people want easy wins.

Honestly this thread sounds like a bunch of hurt kids crying because they were bested by another person. Thieves are not op…yes culling allows them to not render but bind a closest target and boom there they are….Next PTV gear it’s not a suggestion…you are no help if you are dead so lose the noob zerk gear. Finally learn your class you have skills/utilities/ traits that will reflect damage, break stuns, and cc your opponents. A great one is pain inverter that will melt a thief. PS true perma stealth thieves do crap for damage.

Oh look another probably thief player calling everyone noob that can’t kill thieves, instead of providing any good tips against thieves. Zzzzzzzzzz…

strik.5684:

yes and most of time in groups you are hiting yourself , guardian reflecting walls or mesmers reflecting bubbles or even ele magn aura, i have a ranger and i must be careful when i start a burst or im self killed.

Any burst class needs to take care with reflects.
When I play rifle warrior need to take care with reflect walls (easy to spot)
When thief, need to keep an eye on retaliation aegis and blocks/invuls…

Magiofdeath.2745:

Oh look another probably thief player calling everyone noob that can’t kill thieves, instead of providing any good tips against thieves. Zzzzzzzzzz…

I hope you ate not referring to me as I spelled it out for you. If so I will not feed the trolls good luck.

Also, note my main is a warrior which has no problem dealing with thieves. my next char is a guardian again no problem, and my other alt is a ranger….and wow again not an issue to fight a thief. Re-read my post and if you still can’t learn to adjust your fighting dependent on each class you fight I suggest uninstalling immediately

I live going after glass cannon builds on my thief. I get a laugh every time they drop.

strik.5684:

And one of the most important things in this game its tab target , they told from betas you dont need it? well aoe’s doesnt need it but every crap 1 target skill needs it or 90% of time you fail to land that skill (see mesmers changes/nerf), how many times with ranger im using my bow and the …king shot goes to my feet?? thats a joke you know, make no tab at all . period.

There are 500 different ways to target some one in this game and each and every one of them is horrible at best. This is actually my biggest complaint with this game. To actually make this game playable you have to download an app that makes the game play like a kitten FPS…

That leads into stealth. When a thief or mesmer stealth re targeting them is just half the battle. The horrifically bad targeting system in this game is one of the many reasons why these 2 classes are so over powered.

Even though I don’t see this an an exploit because it is as simple as using a skill near a wall soloing a tower takes way to much time to be an issue. It’s a little shady how your achieving perma stealth but all it would take is one half kitten player to run in there and stop you. My duo buddy and I can cap a keep in roughly 30-40 seconds now though after hiding in it using our methods. When our third is on we can do it even faster/smoother too.

Magiofdeath.2745:

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

Really? How do you think other games’ thiefs/rogues cope? They can’t stealth mid-combat and if they can, damage breaks it. This is a weak argument. A very weak argument. Try again please.

Your quote should be “stealth breaking on damage taken would make thieves actually learn to play well without facerolling their keyboards” but I guess that would kill most players, because no skill people want easy wins.

first off yes i have a thief and no i haven’t PvPed with it yet. about 75% of my WvW is with my ranger the other 25 the warrior when i feel like a change in pace.

this game is different than other games. you don’t need a target for melle attacks to hit. that combined with all the aoe the thief would never be able to stealth.

as i have said i believe stealth needs to be tweaked a little bit, however i don’t want them to completely destroy the thief to turn them into free kills.

Joey.2769:

Magiofdeath.2745:

Oh look another probably thief player calling everyone noob that can’t kill thieves, instead of providing any good tips against thieves. Zzzzzzzzzz…

I hope you ate not referring to me as I spelled it out for you. If so I will not feed the trolls good luck.

Also, note my main is a warrior which has no problem dealing with thieves. my next char is a guardian again no problem, and my other alt is a ranger….and wow again not an issue to fight a thief. Re-read my post and if you still can’t learn to adjust your fighting dependent on each class you fight I suggest uninstalling immediately

Ok, I’ll play this game.

“Honestly this thread sounds like a bunch of hurt kids crying because……etc etc” – Not very helpful.

“Thieves are not op…yes culling allows them to not render but bind a closest target and boom there they are” – target closest has been broken since day 1, it doesn’t always target the mob closest to you, most of the time, not all the time

“Next PTV gear it’s not a suggestion…you are no help if you are dead so lose the noob zerk gear” – using the word ‘noob’ isn’t very helpful – PTV gear does help, you’re right, but armor is easy to get, a little helpful

“Finally learn your class you have skills/utilities/ traits that will reflect damage, break stuns, and cc your opponents. A great one is pain inverter that will melt a thief. PS true perma stealth thieves do crap for damage.” – now we’re talking, but pain inverter is available to asura only (so I guess we should all re-roll Asura). I play a necro in WvW, we don’t have reflect or confusion, we have a couple stun breaks just like every class. We do have a nice axe skill that applies retaliation, however. Obv, necros have CCs too.

I actually don’t have that many problems on my necro with thieves, I’m just agreeing with people in this thread that the stealth mechanic is broken, which it is.

I guess everyone in this thread that also says the stealth mechanic is broken in this thread should also uninstall. Good advice sir.

Lonny.9873:

tagnut.8621:

Thieves are far from fine.

Its facepalmingly bemusing why ANET haven’t dealt with them yet – a 5 year old could tell you that:

- near permanent untargetable invisibility plus
- insane burst damage (5-6k steal, 5-6k cnd, 6-14k backstab) all in < 2s from invisibility plus
- as many get out jail free cards as you like plus. The mobility also makes up for medium armor and lowest healthpool in the game.
- crazy kitten mobility (bouncy bouncy heartseeker spam for 6k crits)

Its too much. Far too much.

1. Near Permastealth = No Damage
2. Only if everything crits and you are too dumb to use a stunbreaker, dodge the steal or you didnt see it coming
3. So… He’s running away = u won
4. The dps on heartseeker is way lower than the dagger #1 chain. It’s only useful for gapclosing since the Animation can be dodged quite easily

1. Inaccurate. See CND, culling and other tools that allow perma stealth WHILE attacking
2. Inaccurate. Anet admits that they have high burst.
3. No it’s a tie.
4. Hs is the only high burst spammable attack in the game.

Magiofdeath.2745:

vespers.1759:

why are you even trying to compare the two?

Because a large majority of thieves are played by morons and will try to find anything to prove their class mechanic isn’t BS. Next up: thieves will say bear ranger pets are more OP than the thief class.

Visit the ranger forums. A thief is there complaining about op ranger pets.

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

No it wouldn’t. Every other game has this. There’s no reason this game shouldn’t.

I recently leveled a thief to 80 just to see what all the fuss was about. I am close to max possible +crit damage, still working on some of the gear. The highest backstab I have ever gotten was for 9k, and that was on a sub-80 player. Most of the backstabs on 80s are 6k or under. I am in the T1 matchup so it may be that JQ and SoS make smarter gear choices than the majority of players, so my perspective may be skewed.

Playing a backstab thief is not a faceroll combination. Yes, if there’s a lone player running around I can get a good backstab combo off and will probably kill him. But in the larger zerg vs. zerg fights? I have one gap-closer: Steal. And even if I pull off a perfect combo the best I can do is down someone, because if I stick around and try to stealth stomp I will get knocked away or AoE’d to death. The burst is great, but the ability to finish in large groups is sub-par.

IF thieves are nerfed, which I don’t think they need to be, I think the only change that needs to be made is to increase the risk of their combo by nerfing Shadowstep. A 1200 range, stun break, instant cast ability which will return you to your original point is so, so good for escaping when a situation goes bad. Reduce the range to 900 so that it’s slightly harder to get away.

Columba.9730:

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

No it wouldn’t. Every other game has this. There’s no reason this game shouldn’t.

If stealth didn’t last 4 secs and precast and channeled spells didn’t track you when you went stealth then maybe it should break on damage. Your trying to apply mechanics that are used against thief classes that have a stealth skill that is full time and make it work on short duration stealths. Won’t work.

Really fix culling, then if need be balance stealth. As of right now I have shelved my thief and main my necro and I have no problem fighting thief at all. I still think people need to play the class and once they do they will see not only how to counter the class but get to experiance the joy of all the bugs that the class has.

But then again I need to remember who I’m talking to. Just look at your post history you find a way to complain about thief no matter what the subject is.

We complain about thieves because stealth is badly broken. I am not the only one complaining. Even most thieves admit that it’s broken.

Columba.9730:

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

No it wouldn’t. Every other game has this. There’s no reason this game shouldn’t.

sorry but the “every other game does it this way” is not a valid reason to do so.

all games are different in some ways, as far as game mechanics go. In most the other games the stealth classes have many abilities to defend themselves when they are out in the open. for example the rogue from WoW has stun locks, 10 sec evades, blinds, sprint, silences and so on(if i remember correctly they had an ability to reset many def CDs as well). well at least they did when i played. in this game the ability to stealth mid combat and make us drop target is part of the thieves defense. Now it does need to be adjusted a little but stealth breaking on damage is just to harsh. they just need to stop the coming out and going back into stealth in less than .5 sec. changing how the revealed works would do this.

Magiofdeath.2745:

Really? How do you think other games’ thiefs/rogues cope? They can’t stealth mid-combat and if they can, damage breaks it. This is a weak argument. A very weak argument. Try again please.

Your quote should be “stealth breaking on damage taken would make thieves actually learn to play well without facerolling their keyboards” but I guess that would kill most players, because no skill people want easy wins.

WoW Rogues can use “Vanish” to break off during mid-combat. Also WoW rogues only took damage from AoEs while stealthed whereas everything damages a thief while in stealth in this game(as long as you are in range). Not to mention channeled skills still doing damage to stealthed thieves whereas in WoW this was not possible.

If you are going to make an argument based on previous games you better at least know how they worked otherwise you just look silly.

I used to think thieves were OPd so I rolled one and now I know their weaknesses and most skilled players do as well.

However, that said I do think that the GC Basilisk/Steal/Backstab build is a bit overpowered and needs to be toned down.

@Sureshot – that’s great. Vanish was the ONLY way WoW rogues could stealth mid-combat. GW2 thieves have this ability via multiple skills mid-combat every 12 seconds. Huge difference. Maybe you should get your facts straight as well. Vanish was mostly used as a escape mechanic, not an offensive mechanic. GW2 stealth is used for both offensive and defensive.

“If you are going to make an argument based on previous games you better at least know how they worked otherwise you just look silly.”

Magiofdeath.2745:

@Sureshot – that’s great. Vanish was the ONLY way WoW rogues could stealth mid-combat. GW2 thieves have this ability via multiple skills mid-combat every 12 seconds. Huge difference. Maybe you should get your facts straight as well. Vanish was mostly used as a escape mechanic, not an offensive mechanic. GW2 stealth is used for both offensive and defensive.

“If you are going to make an argument based on previous games you better at least know how they worked otherwise you just look silly.”

Your words:

Really? How do you think other games’ thiefs/rogues cope? They can’t stealth mid-combat and if they can, damage breaks it.

I pointed out this was wrong and with abilities I could do Vanish twice. I also used Vanish often as an attack. You used an absolute saying in other games “they can’t stealth mid-combat”. Your facts were wrong and I merely pointed that out.

Fair enough. The point I was trying to make though is that its way easier for thieves to stealth mid-combat in this game than any other game. Fine, I was wrong, forgot about vanish, sue me. My point still remains, however. What was cooldown on vanish? 12 seconds? Yeah, didn’t think so.

“Also WoW rogues only took damage from AoEs while stealthed whereas everything damages a thief while in stealth in this game(as long as you are in range). Not to mention channeled skills still doing damage to stealthed thieves whereas in WoW this was not possible.” – Sureshot

Funny you say that all skills that hit thieves in this game while stealth… Yes, you’re right, if they were channeled BEFORE they went stealth they do hit them (which often happened in WoW as well, played a rogue there myself), but try channeling a non-AoE skill and hitting something you can’t target nor see.

Amazing what length OP classes will go to, to defend broken mechanics.

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

I have actually been thinking about this. I do believe there is far, far too much aoe damage for stealth to break on damage.

If we take it in the context of the game:

Going into stealth likely takes focus and concentration. Our hero would be able to maintain this under certain conditions, especially no damage. Even if taking a little damage, I would think such a hero would be able to shrug it off without much effort. One option is to make it a trait where you could remain stealthed while taking damage. Not sure if its the best one, but its out there.

However, I think that stuns, knockdowns, etc should break stealth. In the same concept, the hero wouldnt be able to maintain that focus or concentration if they are knocked for a loop. I actually think this would be a good option. Maybe even a trait that allows for stealth to continue when knocked down, stunned, etc. It makes sense to me, and this little touch along with getting culling fixed (whenever that happens), may balance the thief relatively well.

My first character was a thief, however, it felt cheap to me. Even at 80 with full exotics, I am contemplating deleting. Just dont play it anymore and have been thinking about running a full support guardian.

Many classes fight at an advantage against a typical d/d thief. Once you avoid the burst its over. The ability to run from any fight is silly and adding into larger fights, especially as d/p is cheese city. But 1v1 you have to flat outplay most classes to get a win.

its a system where everyone, thieves and people who play against them, are frustrated with the mechanics. Its bad design and I wouldent mind a change. Burst/bunker in general are too powerful at both extremes.

Henrik.7560:

Thieves are overpowered, only mesmers can fight them since they can stealth too, and send their clones in as a decoy for the huge burst damage.

If your bad thieves are OP.

My ele can destroy GC thieves and Condi thieves dont even phase me anymore.

Retrospek.4583:

“Also WoW rogues only took damage from AoEs while stealthed whereas everything damages a thief while in stealth in this game(as long as you are in range). Not to mention channeled skills still doing damage to stealthed thieves whereas in WoW this was not possible.” – Sureshot

Funny you say that all skills that hit thieves in this game while stealth… Yes, you’re right, if they were channeled BEFORE they went stealth they do hit them (which often happened in WoW as well, played a rogue there myself), but try channeling a non-AoE skill and hitting something you can’t target nor see.

Amazing what length OP classes will go to, to defend broken mechanics.

Auto attacking the area with a skill that can hit in melee range or has a pathed projectile like dagger ele’s will still hit the thief.

Though if a thief wants to run away from you nothing you do will catch him unless you started channeling before stealth.
OR get really lucky with a an immobilize or a CC

How about a mechanic like the spy in tf2? They appear briefly but translucent when they take dmg…

Thieves need their burst toned down a little, other than that they are counterable, even if it is not a fun fight in my opinion. As long as anyone with a medium health pool and armor can live with some health through the burst and recover I would be happy. So you don’t need to be full PVT bunker to survive. So lets say a full steal, C&D and BS did 12-13k damage like other classes burst not closer to 18-20k.

If warrior hit that hard, as the individual claimed (20k) that needs to be toned down as well, However I haven’t ever seen that vs anyone other than an up level.

Although I am not going into the power of a stealth spam bleed build, I have no idea how to fix them.

[GoF] Twisted Tweak.

If you walk around WvW as a glass canon you should expect to be dropped like a rock, don’t complain about it after. You guys run those builds so you can insta burst people down, and when the tide is turned you start kittening about OP classes and all that garbage, you all sound like a bunch of hypocrit cry babies imo.

This thief is awesome, I am a huge fan and I love your work, well played without exploiting. Don’t listen to everyone crying about your class or damage, ANET staff claimed from day one “Thief’s will do the most single target damage in the game, and they will always be that way” sorry for my pharaphrasing.
+1 from me.

Columba.9730:

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

No it wouldn’t. Every other game has this. There’s no reason this game shouldn’t.

Go play every other game then.

Magiofdeath.2745:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

Majik.8521:

Retrospek.4583:

A proper proposal to fix the problems with thieves in my opinion would be that not only does outgoing damage break stealth, but also incoming damage breaks stealth.

stealth breaking on damage taken would just kill the thieves.

i still believe the best solution is to apply revealed debuff every time they come out of stealth.

No it wouldn’t. Every other game has this. There’s no reason this game shouldn’t.

Go play every other game then.

Wow, what a terrible answer. There should be a downvote option so posts can get deleted due to downvotes. /Looks at signature Oh, plays a thief – understandable now.

Has you ever thought that some people that have a thief made one so they wouldnt be part of the masses of people that cry everytime they get BS combo’d and die?

Some people dont like to waste time and cry about another classes mechanics.
Instead some of us make the class that gives us trouble, learn it, and then get back on our main and counter it.

At least I want to believe people that want to be good at the game do….

Im all for a reasonable nerf to the theif ( key word reasonable) as well as fixes to mechanics like cnd on walls and objects, as is probably everyone.

Im not for neutering as class because people dont want to learn to play.

My biggest questions: if your game cannot handle stealth properly, why include a class based so heavily on abusing stealth in the first place? If your game is based on combat, why include an archetype based on avoiding fair combat at all?

Boggles my mind how devs never learn.

Joey.2769:

You do realize that as a glass cannon they have maybe 1900 toughness/ 14000 health. Run some PTV gear and learn to use confusion/retribution/reflect along with evade and stun break. Collect their badges rinse and repeat.

Those all work well against a thief. Although ranger’s have access to none of those retal-abilities…unless you’re an Asuran. No wonder I see so many lil’ rangers scampering about. :P

I really want ANET to fix culling soon so we can actually determine exactly how much of an advantage stealth gives. Based on Magiofdeath and my conversation in another thread I am willing to admit that stealth might need to be looked into (obviously there need to be additional balances to the class if they change the way it works) and I’m ok with that.

We are all basing our opinions of stealth on flawed data due to culling though. It’s hard to make a real solid argument for or against stealth until that is fixed because no one really knows how it’s going to pan out once it is. My theory is that the revealed debuff will become a much bigger advantage to people fighting against thieves. With culling fixed thieves will be exposed to the full duration that the debuff provides.

purpleskies.3274:

Thieves need their burst toned down a little, other than that they are counterable, even if it is not a fun fight in my opinion. As long as anyone with a medium health pool and armor can live with some health through the burst and recover I would be happy. So you don’t need to be full PVT bunker to survive. So lets say a full steal, C&D and BS did 12-13k damage like other classes burst not closer to 18-20k.

If warrior hit that hard, as the individual claimed (20k) that needs to be toned down as well, However I haven’t ever seen that vs anyone other than an up level.

Although I am not going into the power of a stealth spam bleed build, I have no idea how to fix them.

Thats more of a risk reward type of situation.
My ele isnt in PVT gear.

she’s in Magi, and BS while it hurts, wont kill me, UNLESS they quickness clip ( which is an entire mechanic and bug that needs to be addressed)
My mes, who’s in zerker gear will die to a a BS thief if im not paying attention and have no utilities available.

Thus is the risk reward of running around with a glass cannon.

Obsidian.1328:

Joey.2769:

You do realize that as a glass cannon they have maybe 1900 toughness/ 14000 health. Run some PTV gear and learn to use confusion/retribution/reflect along with evade and stun break. Collect their badges rinse and repeat.

Those all work well against a thief. Although ranger’s have access to none of those abilities…unless you’re an Asuran. No wonder I see so many lil’ rangers scampering about. :P

Rangers have one of the most potent evade tank builds so far.

stupid birds -_-

Harbinger.9645:

I really want ANET to fix culling soon so we can actually determine exactly how much of an advantage stealth gives. Based on Magiofdeath and my conversation in another thread I am willing to admit that stealth might need to be looked into (obviously there need to be additional balances to the class if they change the way it works) and I’m ok with that.

We are all basing our opinions of stealth on flawed data due to culling though. It’s hard to make a real solid argument for or against stealth until that is fixed because no one really knows how it’s going to pan out once it is. My theory is that the revealed debuff will become a much bigger advantage to people fighting against thieves. With culling fixed thieves will be exposed to the full duration that the debuff provides.

Go to Spvp or Tpvp.
You will basically see what thieves are capable of without the culling issue, because in spvp its almost non-existent ( at least for me)

2013
not playing thief
wat

Really it’s just the stealth mechanic that’s broken. There’s no true counter to it. I rolled a thief exclusively for killing backline dolyaks because nobody can stop me. Even at level 7 I was able to escape most ganks by hitting C/D, then swap to shortbow, teleport, use my stealth-heal then teleport again and by the time they realized where I went I was too far away for most people to bother chasing.

High damage + extreme escape abilities + no counter to stealth = best class in the game. Thief is the best tank class for WvW. Not getting hit > any set of epic toughness gear.