Guild Wars 2

This will be my only post on this subject.

Currently, WvW needs some special rules changes to make things actually defeat this Zerg > All mentality.

(This is based on my long experience from PVP in games like DAoC’s RvR, etc.)

1) You can have stacking but any diminishing returns (if they even exist) need to be large enough that stacking is not overwhelming an individual player based on the weight of the Zerg alone.

2) Immunity timers. CC stacking/chaining is currently beyond the pale. Most people recognize this. Repeated blinds and immoblizations are really out of control.

3) Autotargetting should be disabled in all PVP, but especially in WvW.

You do these 3 things, you will see a huge change in overall gameplay, balance and, I think it’s safe to say, fun, for the better.

Beyond this, there are class imbalances that are still pretty glaring and need to be addressed by the devs. Ranger’s range bonus + pet (they are simply too strong, long range perpetual dots that constantly interfere with targeting) is just one example that comes to mind immediately.

AOEs are overpowered, spells and otherwise. Siege engines range and rate of fire, all too fast/long.

Defense mechanics need another look. Battlements Line-of-sight issues only aid the raiding zerg. Siege engines can cancel one another out, but bad defense mechanics critically hurt smaller groups trying to defend a held position. This is especially true when large toons have to jump onto the edges/tops of walls just to take a shot, fully exposing themselves to easy attack. What’s the point of defenses if they force you to be suicidal in order to defend?

Now, flame away or support.

Game on.

Foehammer.7063:

This will be my only post on this subject.

Currently, WvW needs some special rules changes to make things actually defeat this Zerg > All mentality.

(This is based on my long experience from PVP in games like DAoC’s RvR, etc.)

1) You can have stacking but any diminishing returns (if they even exist) need to be large enough that stacking is not overwhelming an individual player based on the weight of the Zerg alone.

2) Immunity timers. CC stacking/chaining is currently beyond the pale. Most people recognize this. Repeated blinds and immoblizations are really out of control.

3) Autotargetting should be disabled in all PVP, but especially in WvW.

You do these 3 things, you will see a huge change in overall gameplay, balance and, I think it’s safe to say, fun, for the better.

Beyond this, there are class imbalances that are still pretty glaring and need to be addressed by the devs. Ranger’s range bonus + pet (they are simply too strong, long range perpetual dots that constantly interfere with targeting) is just one example that comes to mind immediately.

AOEs are overpowered, spells and otherwise. Siege engines range and rate of fire, all too fast/long.

Defense mechanics need another look. Battlements Line-of-sight issues only aid the raiding zerg. Siege engines can cancel one another out, but bad defense mechanics critically hurt smaller groups trying to defend a held position. This is especially true when large toons have to jump onto the edges/tops of walls just to take a shot, fully exposing themselves to easy attack. What’s the point of defenses if they force you to be suicidal in order to defend?

Now, flame away or support.

Game on.

Good post!

As a Ranger (both here and in DAoC) the last paragraph, regarding wall defenders is especially close to my heart. One mechanic I really miss is the “altitude affecting range” from DAoC.

From my experience in Lineage II.

Big events require a lot of people.

1) i have no problem with it even when iam defending a tower with 4 more people vs 20.
2) same as above.
3) autotargetting just benefit a player if he has insane lags.

The mentality of people like you is

• You die a lot
• You like 1v1 a lot
• You dont like big events with a lot of people because dont even know what to do
• You die a lot
• You have no idea of how to set a siege weaponry or how to defend properly a structure
  *You die a lot

Agreed with the stacking and immunity timers, they are absolute musts as far as WvW is concerned, it’s far too easy to lock targets in multiple CC’s that don’t share the same diminishing returns (Daze, Stun, Immobilize, Cripple & Position Manipulation are all on there own diminishing returns)

Auto target is fine since WvW zergs tend to be messy affairs anyway, Auto-tracking isn’t (Auto-tracking are attacks that will always auto-face you, this messes up classes reliant on positioning to deal conditions/damage a great deal) I’m just glad for the most, zerging is quite mindless and hasn’t adopted the Assist train nature.

Totally agree on the line of sight problems on keeps/towers, I don’t get how I tiny wall that barely covers your feet can entirely block your line of sight from someone who is directly in your line of sight.

Another thing to add to anti-zerg mentality is at least the Garrison should start reinforced making it a safe place to put your orb so you don’t get the “Got in first” zergs following a reset getting the orbs within the first hour because people are still filtering in and there is no defensable position for the orb to go that isn’t at risk of being zerged down in the first hour.

I’m a firm believer that Orbs should be very hard to get and take a LOT of effort and investment into obtaining, right now they are getting zerged away in the first hour by “got in first zergs” that sets up the server that did get in first onto a huge advantage and a downward spiral for everyone else.

If you are familar with DaoC, you’ll be familar with Border keeps and the Relic keep itself, how much it took to shut down the border keeps and how much of a battle you had to endure to get the relic from the relic keep, and this is what I’d actually like to see instead:

To me this is how I feel the Garrison and it’s two keeps should work, each keep is classed as a link in the chain that must be cut otherwise the Garrison will be very hard to take, once the Garrison is finally taken the final objective should be the orb altar (which should be a Fortress, it gives no bonuses, just houses the Orb) which you simply won’t be able to breach without unlocking the neccessary paths and your world must hold the neccessary keeps & garrison to get to the Orb Fortress.

Upon finally breaching the Orb Fortress, now comes the hard part, getting out of the Fortress with the Orb and getting it back to one of the keeps you have taken and setting up to defend it.

Yes it sounds awfully difficult, but that’s how it was in DaoC & that’s how it should be here, getting an orb shouldn’t be a first hour “dime a dozen” thing, it should be the hardest thing to do on WvW and something to be proud of once you do it.

MadMaximoff.7128:

Agreed with the stacking and immunity timers, they are absolute musts as far as WvW is concerned, it’s far too easy to lock targets in multiple CC’s that don’t share the same diminishing returns (Daze, Stun, Immobilize, Cripple & Position Manipulation are all on there own diminishing returns)

Auto target is fine since WvW zergs tend to be messy affairs anyway, Auto-tracking isn’t (Auto-tracking are attacks that will always auto-face you, this messes up classes reliant on positioning to deal conditions/damage a great deal) I’m just glad for the most, zerging is quite mindless and hasn’t adopted the Assist train nature.

Totally agree on the line of sight problems on keeps/towers, I don’t get how I tiny wall that barely covers your feet can entirely block your line of sight from someone who is directly in your line of sight.

Another thing to add to anti-zerg mentality is at least the Garrison should start reinforced making it a safe place to put your orb so you don’t get the “Got in first” zergs following a reset getting the orbs within the first hour because people are still filtering in and there is no defensable position for the orb to go that isn’t at risk of being zerged down in the first hour.

I’m a firm believer that Orbs should be very hard to get and take a LOT of effort and investment into obtaining, right now they are getting zerged away in the first hour by “got in first zergs” that sets up the server that did get in first onto a huge advantage and a downward spiral for everyone else.

Actually, the game has line of sight issues all around. I get “Obstructed” constantly in PvE, even from a slight incline in the terrain.

Just remove the 5-target AoE limitation on damage spells (not grab/pull by Guardians or Mesmers for example) and zergs are done.
This limitation is killing PvP against larger groups (i don’t even mention rez mechanics) cause they won’t care about this limitation since they have more people than you.

The game doesn’t punish poor gameplay and people (and zergs) staying in AoE or playing without even noticing there is an AoE under their feet.

This should be gone for a while.

wow their is a 5 target AoE limitation?

That is ret@rted

They just need to make arrow carts immune to retalitaion and zergs could then be handled defensively with a prepared position.

Pryda.8257:

Just remove the 5-target AoE limitation on damage spells (not grab/pull by Guardians or Mesmers for example) and zergs are done.
This limitation is killing PvP against larger groups (i don’t even mention rez mechanics) cause they won’t care about this limitation since they have more people than you.

The game doesn’t punish poor gameplay and people (and zergs) staying in AoE or playing without even noticing there is an AoE under their feet.

This should be gone for a while.

warhammer online didn’t have a limit on the damage an AOE could do. this caused bright wizard vs bright wizard (ele v ele anyone)?

This is not warhammer online, there is no dedicated healers to keep alive Elementalists rushing in Melee, sorry.
Also, everyone can do a lot AoE damage with the right spec and stuff that’s why almost everyone that played WvW since the beginning is farming a tanky gear.

This game does way more to combat the zerg than any game previously. Well placed Siege Engines allow single players to defend against many.

AoE damage is a tricky balancing act.

Best way to fix the zerg is to remove repair costs for PvP so people aren’t punished for going off alone.

I disagree, and agree with the op. What I disagree with is that siege weapons need to be nerfed. I also disagree with the targeting. Everything else I somewhat agree with. Here is my personal opinion in dealing with zergs.

If a group is much bigger than yours then it should for the most part overwhelm your group. Of course this changes when you are facing a fort. Forts are there to allow significantly less people to control an area against a significantly more amount. Currently this isn’t so, and I think I have the answer as to why this is. Arrowcarts cannot be safe behind a wall. Many things contribute to this, like AOE’s ignoring line of sight right now, which should be fixed soon. The bigger underlying issue however is the fact that camera control, and the fact that your zoom while operating the weapon is significantly limited. Therefore you are being forced to place a weapon intended to be in the back supplementing the frontline, onto the frontline itself. If we can have more options in the placement of such weapons it would greatly increase the difficulty level of taking a fort. It might actually force the invading force to build up siege weapons of it’s own to take a fort, which I think is how it should be in the first place. Especially if a fort is reinforced with heavy walls, and a heavy gate.

Lets just limit WvW to 10 people, that way no Zergs!!!

Oh wait, but then when 1 random person walks near those 10, it will be called a zerg again and need another nerf…

Pryda.8257:

Just remove the 5-target AoE limitation on damage spells (not grab/pull by Guardians or Mesmers for example) and zergs are done.
This limitation is killing PvP against larger groups (i don’t even mention rez mechanics) cause they won’t care about this limitation since they have more people than you.

The game doesn’t punish poor gameplay and people (and zergs) staying in AoE or playing without even noticing there is an AoE under their feet.

This should be gone for a while.

I was unaware of the 5 target limit (always thought the damage numbers I saw from my ranged AoE meant those were all I hit). Yeah, that needs to be removed from WvWvW

On a side note, anyone know where to find old DAoC 8man videos? There were quite a few of FGs destroying zergs back in the day.

Bellok.4180:

I disagree, and agree with the op. What I disagree with is that siege weapons need to be nerfed. I also disagree with the targeting. Everything else I somewhat agree with. Here is my personal opinion in dealing with zergs.

If a group is much bigger than yours then it should for the most part overwhelm your group. Of course this changes when you are facing a fort. Forts are there to allow significantly less people to control an area against a significantly more amount. Currently this isn’t so, and I think I have the answer as to why this is. Arrowcarts cannot be safe behind a wall. Many things contribute to this, like AOE’s ignoring line of sight right now, which should be fixed soon. The bigger underlying issue however is the fact that camera control, and the fact that your zoom while operating the weapon is significantly limited. Therefore you are being forced to place a weapon intended to be in the back supplementing the frontline, onto the frontline itself. If we can have more options in the placement of such weapons it would greatly increase the difficulty level of taking a fort. It might actually force the invading force to build up siege weapons of it’s own to take a fort, which I think is how it should be in the first place. Especially if a fort is reinforced with heavy walls, and a heavy gate.

^^^ THIS!
You nailed it man. This is the real issue. Any large force be it zerg or not should throw itself at a keep/tower and be absolutely decimated by it UNLESS they bring a bunch of siege. Taking a tower/keep/garrison should be IMPOSSIBLE without siege. It should be scaled as well. A Tower lets say could be taken with 1 catapult or 1 treb. A keep requires several and garrison even more. The larger the structure the more siege it should take.

Part of the issue is the siege used to defend structures are far to easy to kill imo. It should be hard to take it out or hell fix the camera so we can place arrow carts and balistae farther back or fix the fact that AoE can easily hit and decimate siege.

The walls also are designed very very poorly atm and its is practically suicide to stand at the wall and shoot down. This is messed up and very large part of why its hard to defend against a zerg/large force. If your behind that wall on the battlement shooting down it should be very hard for those on the ground to hit you and it should take no effort for you to rain death on them.

On a side not why are there no murder holes? Seems to me like an oversight for proper keep warfare.

In nutshell balance the defence of structures vs attacking forces with NO siege and this will not be a issue. With battles lasting 2 weeks in the future long siege’s should be the norm. It should not be easy to flip a structure. It should be hard and require real siege tactics. Atm you can just capture any structure with the right numbers without any siege and this is WRONG.

Phaedryn.3698:

I was unaware of the 5 target limit (always thought the damage numbers I saw from my ranged AoE meant those were all I hit). Yeah, that needs to be removed from WvWvW

On a side note, anyone know where to find old DAoC 8man videos? There were quite a few of FGs destroying zergs back in the day.

Removing the AoE limit is not the solution and would in fact turn WvW into nothing but a AoE Zerg and cause balance issues.

Realistically in open battle a large force SHOULD be able to overwhelm a smaller force with pure numbers. In siege warfare its the opposite.

The problem for the defenders under siege by a zerg is not the AoE its the ease of which Zerg can capture without any siege at all.