Guild Wars 2

So in the SToG it was said that treb shots are going to no longer be blocked by Sanc/SW ect. I will cut right to the chase, this being removed is terrible for the game. Why? because it takes away counterplay in WvW and makes it harder to defend/attack certain objectives in the game.

It also makes it impossible to defend against the exploit trebs used at Borderland Garrisons, and only possible to go and wipe them out which is very diffcult to accomplish.

I would like the reasoning behind why counterplay like this would be taken away, thank you.

Link please? o.o

I kinda find it hard to believe… especially if they’re not gonna do this with catas.

Actually I think it will be easier to counter treb garrison, now that they cant block you with eles.

I think this is a good thing because what will matter more in a treb / counter-treb situation is how well your treb user can hit the other, not how big a group they had (and thus how many swirling winds or guardian bubbles they could employ). This rewards good play, and rewards large group size less, and thus is a step in the right direction.

Anything to speed up the gameplay, WvW is way too slow right now.

…exploit trebs?
are you referring to trebbing bay from garr?

I don’t know why they are changing this, it only slows down the person on the treb who is attacking.

This removes one level of depth within WvW gameplay.

Ele’s using Swirling Winds required a pretty substantial amount of communication and coordination.
But nah, why do we need any of that nonsense? Just join the zerg and spam #1 to victory.

This screws up the meta of WvW to a colossal extent. Not to mention how this screws EB to no end. Overlook has to have a redesign so it cannot treb Stonemist. Tower’s are fine but, it’s the only keep capable of trebbing SM.

How is WvW slow in T1???? Must be a roamer. #smh

Substantial amount of communication? That’s an overstatement if I’ve even seen one. Four or five Eles figuring how what order to go in is nothing to be praised.

This encourages better trebbers and better treb placements. It encourages players to actually look for enemy trebs. No more can a treb just be placed in any old spot as a counter, and let Eles make it invulnerable to counter fire for as long as they choose. No more can players simply hug the treb and not have to worry about how it’ll fare.

This is a good change. Not a bad one in any way. Anything that makes trebuchets less convenient is a boon in my eyes.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I think this is a good thing because what will matter more in a treb / counter-treb situation is how well your treb user can hit the other, not how big a group they had (and thus how many swirling winds or guardian bubbles they could employ). This rewards good play, and rewards large group size less, and thus is a step in the right direction.

I beg to differ. It will mostly matter how fast you can speed build a counter-treb that is pointed at it’s target, in a place where the siege you are shooting at either can’t hit or isn’t facing already. Now it’s basically just who shoots first (or who has more supply, read: players, to build more trebs), not who shoots better (assuming a base level of competence with treb placement and firing on both sides).

Sure, if one side doesn’t know how to drop siege to face it’s target or the operators aren’t familiar with using a treb in the first place, they will lose on a purely piece for piece basis. Even then, simply having more numbers to build more siege will win. I don’t see this change discouraging huge zergs in any way, nor do I see it as increasing skilled gameplay.

Skilled treb operators vs. skilled blockers was actually an interesting tactical game. Varying treb power and aim, staggering shot timings, trying to catch falling bombs on the edges of cliffs, all these tactics are now dead, and the skill involved will no longer be required. It’s just DPS wars now with siege.

Imagine if player characters had no defensive skills and only one attack, what boring PvP, right? Well, that’s what they just did to siege weapons (assuming catas get the same treatment as trebs here). “Whoever shoots first wins” is a heck of a lot more boring than “rock : paper : scissors”, which is more like what we had (have) “shoot : block : splash damage/aim”.

Shortened: New system will be more “auto-win” for big groups.

Gisei.5749:

Substantial amount of communication? That’s an overstatement if I’ve even seen one. Four or five Eles figuring how what order to go in is nothing to be praised.

This encourages better trebbers and better treb placements. It encourages players to actually look for enemy trebs. No more can a treb just be placed in any old spot as a counter, and let Eles make it invulnerable to counter fire for as long as they choose. No more can players simply hug the treb and not have to worry about how it’ll fare.

This is a good change. Not a bad one in any way. Anything that makes trebuchets less convenient is a boon in my eyes.

It makes trebs MORE convenient. Give me 9 people with supply and now I can speed build a treb anywhere to take out well placed siege inside forts.

What, you planned to use those trebs inside bay to hit any siege placed on the cliffs while you called for reinforcements? Too bad, my treb-boat shall destroy your counter-trebs before they can be turned to fire on that position because the 3 eles you have managed to get inside so far can do nothing to stop it.

It’s not about skill. It’s about who shoots first. That’s all. And I can build a treb basically anywhere that is already facing the way I want.

There is a lot less reason to pre-build siege now though, so no worries about who’s ticking the counter-trebs…..

I think it’s the right choice.

There is already a thread which discusses this change and other changes in relation to the SoTG here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/State-of-the-game-WvW-Highlights

Frankly I’m fine with this change — as long as the treb range is also reduced. Right now they can hit crazy far away — which doesn’t actually bear any relation to reality at all. I’d much much rather see trebs have to be built and defended in the field, rather than behind a wall somewhere.

Actually trebuchets in real life can fire farther than the trebuchets in game.

This has been covered before. Careful when comparing to reality.

Edit:
Trebs in real life can shoot 300 yards.

Game measures in units. Units are = 1 inch meaning that if they were to match reality by that conversion trebs would have a range of 10,800 units.
If units are 0.01 meters (another estimation) then trebs would have a range of 27,000 units to mimic real life.
Current trebs in game have a range of 10,000 units. Props to the devs for doing their research.

As an ele, I LOVE this change

Horrible change is horrible. Way to remove depth from WvW.

Suizen.5614:

So in the SToG it was said that treb shots are going to no longer be blocked by Sanc/SW ect. I will cut right to the chase, this being removed is terrible for the game. Why? because it takes away counterplay in WvW and makes it harder to defend/attack certain objectives in the game.

It also makes it impossible to defend against the exploit trebs used at Borderland Garrisons, and only possible to go and wipe them out which is very diffcult to accomplish.

This, its ridiculous, put the treb in the right spot and its impossible to get it and they have a free shot at bay, something which can’t be done on Hills.

A question, was it always intended that a treb in garrison could reach bay with impunity?

Using swirling winds was certainly incredibly boring, no doubt about that, but the utility of it was unquestionable. I disagree with the Arenanet philosophy that siege should be the end all be all of WvW play. It creates a very static game play and turns the chess match into a game of checkers. This basically ruins the use of open-field cats and trebs to attack walls, and equally guarantees that bay wall will be down 100% of the time, making an already tough keep even worse to defend.

morrolan.9608:

Suizen.5614:

So in the SToG it was said that treb shots are going to no longer be blocked by Sanc/SW ect. I will cut right to the chase, this being removed is terrible for the game. Why? because it takes away counterplay in WvW and makes it harder to defend/attack certain objectives in the game.

It also makes it impossible to defend against the exploit trebs used at Borderland Garrisons, and only possible to go and wipe them out which is very diffcult to accomplish.

This, its ridiculous, put the treb in the right spot and its impossible to get it and they have a free shot at bay, something which can’t be done on Hills.

A question, was it always intended that a treb in garrison could reach bay with impunity?

sounds like a good kittening counterbalance to having a gate that doesnt upgrade

This is nota good idea, i’m a little mad at the nerfs they are giving eles to tell you the truth and I consider this a nerf as well. Sure ele’s do not like doing this job of protecting siege or walls from treb shots but we do it for the server, to protect what keeps, towers, defensive locations, etc. that we currently have and we do it because we want to, we can easily tell a commander no when he asks for SW and go off and do our own thing or volunteer to do it ourselves. It is not hard to counter an eles swirl either but it is hard to get the ele’s doing the swirling coordinated enough to use one swirl at a time without wasting a crucial swirl upon accidentally doubling up especially if they are not in VOIP. People do not realize you don’t need that many ele’s to successfully swirl a treb or cata shot, you only really need 3-4 eles per treb/cata to be able to do it and im sure there are a number of players that use their ele as well as carry a focus. They are practically making us ele’s useless with these up and coming nerfs, I will not stop playing my ele after these nerfs, i’ll try to find a build that works out because playing an ele is in my opinion the character that I can have the most fun with but I just wish they weren’t going through with some of the options they’ve talked about in the State of the Game address. /rant

Lifewaster.5912:

Actually I think it will be easier to counter treb garrison, now that they cant block you with eles.

Money sink.

=

more Gem purchases.

Money makes the world go around.

And this nerf is BS. It takes a dedicated Ele or two to successfully SW block kitten. Most just want to strap on daggers and kitten face.

I feel like I should just give me account to my 12 year old brother.

I am fine with it. WoW utility should be balanced. Ele’s and Mesmers have wayyyy to much group utility atm and game control atm. The strategy to stop siege should not entirely depend on having eles. Come up with a new strat.

timidobserver.7925:

I am fine with it. WoW utility should be balanced. Ele’s and Mesmers have wayyyy to much group utility atm and game control atm. The strategy to stop siege should not entirely depend on having eles. Come up with a new strat.

It’s hard to come up with different strategies when it comes to the coverage times in which servers lack the manpower to counter trebs. We do not regularly use eles to counter trebs we ususally just use them as a way to slow down their attack and give us some time to come up with a good strategy or placement for the siege we need to counter it but even then when we are without coverage eles are the only thing that will give us time to siege up the keep to prepare for the imminent attack of the enemy server and hold out as long as we can.

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

timidobserver.7925:

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

its people like you that just drive me nuts. Adapt? How is going from having one strategy to having it completely removed adapting?

Thats like getting your junk removed one day. Just “adapt”. Stop climaxing the old fashion way because its “easy mode”

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

timidobserver.7925:

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

its people like you that just drive me nuts. Adapt? How is going from having one strategy to having it completely removed adapting?

Thats like getting your junk removed one day. Just “adapt”. Stop climaxing the old fashion way because its “easy mode”

exactly. and eles swirling isnt easy mode fyi. takes coordination and people who have the attention span to sit there and siwrl while your server mates go out and have fun taking down the treb. Trebs are easy mode, adapt and use a flame ram to take down walls.

Siege in general is kind of wonky in this game. Why should you be able to place a treb in your tower and hit a surrounding tower completely immune to attack? Same with things like cannons being able to hit other towers and such.

The whole point to siege is supposed to give defenders something to do to legitimately defend their structures. The attackers should never have the advantage when sieging an enemy structure. And that’s just not the case in this game.

jaycatano.6738:

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

timidobserver.7925:

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

its people like you that just drive me nuts. Adapt? How is going from having one strategy to having it completely removed adapting?

Thats like getting your junk removed one day. Just “adapt”. Stop climaxing the old fashion way because its “easy mode”

exactly. and eles swirling isnt easy mode fyi. takes coordination and people who have the attention span to sit there and siwrl while your server mates go out and have fun taking down the treb. Trebs are easy mode, adapt and use a flame ram to take down walls.

I have NEVER played an Ele By the way. In fact I kind of despise them. But they should NOT have this skill removed.

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

jaycatano.6738:

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

timidobserver.7925:

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

its people like you that just drive me nuts. Adapt? How is going from having one strategy to having it completely removed adapting?

Thats like getting your junk removed one day. Just “adapt”. Stop climaxing the old fashion way because its “easy mode”

exactly. and eles swirling isnt easy mode fyi. takes coordination and people who have the attention span to sit there and siwrl while your server mates go out and have fun taking down the treb. Trebs are easy mode, adapt and use a flame ram to take down walls.

I have NEVER played an Ele By the way. In fact I kind of despise them. But they should NOT have this skill removed.

oh come on we’re not all that bad :p

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

timidobserver.7925:

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

its people like you that just drive me nuts. Adapt? How is going from having one strategy to having it completely removed adapting?

Thats like getting your junk removed one day. Just “adapt”. Stop climaxing the old fashion way because its “easy mode”

Well, you pretty much pointed out the problem. In a siege battles, Eles are equivalent to your junk. It shouldn’t be that way.

timidobserver.7925:

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

timidobserver.7925:

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

its people like you that just drive me nuts. Adapt? How is going from having one strategy to having it completely removed adapting?

Thats like getting your junk removed one day. Just “adapt”. Stop climaxing the old fashion way because its “easy mode”

Well, you pretty much pointed out the problem. In a siege battles, Eles are equivalent to your junk. It shouldn’t be that way.

Large and in charge.

I dont know about YOUR servers… but I RARELY see Eles even utilizing this blocking skill.

timidobserver.7925:

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

timidobserver.7925:

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

its people like you that just drive me nuts. Adapt? How is going from having one strategy to having it completely removed adapting?

Thats like getting your junk removed one day. Just “adapt”. Stop climaxing the old fashion way because its “easy mode”

Well, you pretty much pointed out the problem. In a siege battles, Eles are equivalent to your junk. It shouldn’t be that way.

we’re not equivalent at all, there is no siege that has the ability to block treb and cata shots from hitting walls, and likewise we hardly do any damage to siege by ourselves so no. I’d also like to point out that we can not block arrow carts, balistas, rams, or golems. I dont see the equivalence your referring to.

jaycatano.6738:

timidobserver.7925:

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

timidobserver.7925:

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

its people like you that just drive me nuts. Adapt? How is going from having one strategy to having it completely removed adapting?
Thats like getting your junk removed one day. Just “adapt”. Stop climaxing the old fashion way because its “easy mode”

Well, you pretty much pointed out the problem. In a siege battles, Eles are equivalent to your junk. It shouldn’t be that way.

we’re not equivalent at all, there is no siege that has the ability to block treb and cata shots from hitting walls, and likewise we hardly do any damage to siege by ourselves so no. I’d also like to point out that we can not block arrow carts, balistas, rams, or golems. I dont see the equivalence your referring to.

He made the comparison not me.

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

timidobserver.7925:

TonyDiMeglio.5461:

timidobserver.7925:

Yes, it’s hard I know. Do it anyway. Adapt rather than depending on ele easy mode strategies.

its people like you that just drive me nuts. Adapt? How is going from having one strategy to having it completely removed adapting?

Thats like getting your junk removed one day. Just “adapt”. Stop climaxing the old fashion way because its “easy mode”

Well, you pretty much pointed out the problem. In a siege battles, Eles are equivalent to your junk. It shouldn’t be that way.

Large and in charge.

I dont know about YOUR servers… but I RARELY see Eles even utilizing this blocking skill.

In T2 the ele strategy is highly used.

I’ve seen an ele block at least 12 treb shots in the past hour and it has been a slow night as far as trebbing goes.

i dont…. see….. what? lol forget it.

I approve of this change in theory, but it should have come at the same time as an end to the bollocks that is tower to tower trebbing, particularly garrison → bay and SM → friggineverything

If the enemy has a treb, you should have to go, and should be able to go, and kill it.

Ragnar.4257:

I approve of this change in theory, but it should have come at the same time as an end to the bollocks that is tower to tower trebbing, particularly garrison -> bay and SM -> friggineverything

If the enemy has a treb, you should have to go, and should be able to go, and kill it.

What he said. Personally I’m just happy not to have to block tower shots just because my character is an elementalist (like there will even be any eles after the nerfs, lol).

Ragnar.4257:

I approve of this change in theory, but it should have come at the same time as an end to the bollocks that is tower to tower trebbing, particularly garrison -> bay and SM -> friggineverything

If the enemy has a treb, you should have to go, and should be able to go, and kill it.

So break into SM and kill it? The 2 servers who don’t own SM shouldn’t let the 1 that does treb their towers with impunity.

Hrmmm im curious if this will apply to theives and engis smokescreen so far only seen sanc and sw being mentioned

Acotje.5689:

As an ele, I LOVE this change

Haha yeh, I despise having to switch to Focus and press button 4 every 30 seconds.

Regarding whether the change is good or bad for WvW overall, I’ll wait and see how it plays out.

frostshade.3617:

Hrmmm im curious if this will apply to theives and engis smokescreen so far only seen sanc and sw being mentioned

It applies to all.

Ragnar.4257:

I approve of this change in theory, but it should have come at the same time as an end to the bollocks that is tower to tower trebbing, particularly garrison -> bay and SM -> friggineverything

If the enemy has a treb, you should have to go, and should be able to go, and kill it.

You do realize that countering garrison to bay trebs is pretty easy right? I mean the method for countering it has been out there for a few months now.

Xavi.6591:

frostshade.3617:

Hrmmm im curious if this will apply to theives and engis smokescreen so far only seen sanc and sw being mentioned

It applies to all.

By all, everything that can absorb projectiles?

I only support the change if they get rid of some of the stupid places that trebs can hit important stuff from. Trebbing bay from garrison….while being unable to treb hills from garrison, for instance. Either make both within range, or chop the corner off that garrison cliff so trebs can’t be placed there anymore to hit bay. Bay is COMPLETELY unbalanced at the moment. Not only is it stupidly easy to get into (can be trebbed from bay OR briar, while there’s no “good” treb position for hills), but the lord room is 10x hard to defend as the one in hills.

Also, the treb positions possible in EB are just silly. They need to remove those possibilities before they make a game-breaking decision like removing swirling winds, etc.

I really do support the removal of the treb-blockers. I just think that it makes NO sense to remove the treb blockers before fixing the problems with trebbing in the first place.

Hickeroar.9734:

I only support the change if they get rid of some of the stupid places that trebs can hit important stuff from. Trebbing bay from garrison….while being unable to treb hills from garrison, for instance. Either make both within range, or chop the corner off that garrison cliff so trebs can’t be placed there anymore to hit bay. Bay is COMPLETELY unbalanced at the moment. Not only is it stupidly easy to get into, but the lord room is 10x hard to defend as the one in hills.

I suspect that they think this imbalance is OK because everyone has a home map with the same advantages (provided you actually own Garrison). You can treb their Bay, they can treb the other servers Bay, and that other server can treb yours. I don’t agree with that logic and I find it (personally) damaging to the overall meta when methods to defend are being removed. Again, this favors the zerg flash building a couple trebs and being quick enough to take out defenses. If anything I personally think we need more defensive capabilities such that more thought is needed into an attack instead of the mindless zerg that often runs rampant.

This is gonna eff over EB the most i fell, all its going to do is force the fights into stonemist more leading to ever more huge skill lag, as who ever controls SM can treb most of the towers on the map, not to metion that OL is the only keep able to treb SM. If this is the case the way trebs work or their siege placement needs to be changed

Grieve.1432:

Ragnar.4257:

I approve of this change in theory, but it should have come at the same time as an end to the bollocks that is tower to tower trebbing, particularly garrison -> bay and SM -> friggineverything

If the enemy has a treb, you should have to go, and should be able to go, and kill it.

You do realize that countering garrison to bay trebs is pretty easy right? I mean the method for countering it has been out there for a few months now.

if youre talking about AC placed below the trebs at garrison, it doesn’t always work, because a well placed treb is unhittable with an AC. Same with balista splinter attack.

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

I only support the change if they get rid of some of the stupid places that trebs can hit important stuff from. Trebbing bay from garrison….while being unable to treb hills from garrison, for instance. Either make both within range, or chop the corner off that garrison cliff so trebs can’t be placed there anymore to hit bay. Bay is COMPLETELY unbalanced at the moment. Not only is it stupidly easy to get into, but the lord room is 10x hard to defend as the one in hills.

I suspect that they think this imbalance is OK because everyone has a home map with the same advantages (provided you actually own Garrison). You can treb their Bay, they can treb the other servers Bay, and that other server can treb yours. I don’t agree with that logic and I find it (personally) damaging to the overall meta when methods to defend are being removed. Again, this favors the zerg flash building a couple trebs and being quick enough to take out defenses. If anything I personally think we need more defensive capabilities such that more thought is needed into an attack instead of the mindless zerg that often runs rampant.

The problem is when you’re on the dominating server’s borderland….and you’re on the bay side of it. They’re already dominating, and your server is at an instant disadvantage. It’s a badly balanced keep on a badly balanced map…

McNuggetBandit.8376:

This is gonna eff over EB the most i fell, all its going to do is force the fights into stonemist more leading to ever more huge skill lag, as who ever controls SM can treb most of the towers on the map, not to metion that OL is the only keep able to treb SM. If this is the case the way trebs work or their siege placement needs to be changed

OL needs to be able to treb SM. OL is the hardest to defend keep on the map, and any help they can get is better. If they balance up that map so OL/Anz/Mends aren’t horrible, then I can see getting rid of the ability to treb SM. Besides, the treb positions are easy to counter…