Guild Wars 2

Dolyaks are so incredibly fragile that even if you’re defending them, they can still get AoE’d and killed easily. Not only that, but it’s a weak point of WvW that the supply mechanic is almost entirely automated and NPC controlled.

Instead, supply depots should spawn a supply box every so often. A player (whose realm controls the supply point) then picks up the supply box and carries it to another location. If the player dies, the supply box gets dropped to the ground so another teammate can pick it up, not just disappear completely into thin air like dolyak supplies.

The supply would still be marked on the map while traveling, just like it is now. And to prevent stalemates or griefing (someone running off with the supply), supplies reset and respawn every so often if they have not yet been delivered (only 1 box spawned per depot at a time).

This would make the entire supply mechanic much more engaging since it would be much more player controlled. For added engagement, they could also drastically increase the amount of supply per box to say 100 or more (and the time between supply respawns, say 5-10 minutes), to give supply routes a lot more gravity and importance. They could even make supplies stealable (only after the initial pickup/carrier kill), adding another element to the supply game. (Or if too chaotic, leave it so that only the controlling realm can pick it up.)

Making supplies carried and controlled by actual players would result in making defending/attacking supply routes much more engaging, worthwhile, and most importantly, fun!

You actually can carry supply as a player, you know.

I don’t see that what you’re suggesting would enhance the gameplay in a positive way.

As long as keeps can be upgraded to have waypoints, and there are mesmer portal and stealth and a million ways to get past a siege already then I don’t like the idea of players being able to deposit supply in keeps and towers for upgrades. You already have your personal supply that you can use for repairs and siege weapons. It is good to keep the yaks as the only way to get a keep upgraded for the sake of strategic control of camps and defending routes.

I believe OP is saying that Dolyaks should be replaced as supply crates that players have to deliver the crates themselves. So if you want to see your tower/keep/castle upgraded, you need players to form a supply line to deliver the supply. On the other hand, if you want to starve the tower/keep/castle from getting supplies, you will have to fight the players running supply.

mulch.2586:

You actually can carry supply as a player, you know.

I don’t see that what you’re suggesting would enhance the gameplay in a positive way.

Sure but the obvious point is that Dolyaks carry much more supply at once.

HenryAu.7523:

I believe OP is saying that Dolyaks should be replaced as supply crates that players have to deliver the crates themselves. So if you want to see your tower/keep/castle upgraded, you need players to form a supply line to deliver the supply. On the other hand, if you want to starve the tower/keep/castle from getting supplies, you will have to fight the players running supply.

Yes!

I actually like this idea. It forces people to pay attention to the supply lines where the current implementation is largely ignored by the majority of players until someone has tried to upgrade something.

I would like to make a few suggestions:

• Supply crates build up at the camp over time (might want a max cap). You can only pick up crates in camp if you control it.
• Accumulated supply crates at camps do not disappear when a camp is taken over.
• You can deliver the crates to any tower/keep/castle you want.
• Successfully delivering a crate is like completing an event and the player gets rewarded accordingly.

What do you think?

I like that we as players can only carry supplies.. because the one thing everyone goes thru when first trying wuvwuv..

“ok i got supplies! how do i deposit it in the keep?”

:D don’t lie you all know you went thru that

Bad idea.

Like its really bad.

Supply camps and routes are designed to supply specific towers and keeps. Dolyaks are supposed to be raidable caravans so a server can choke an objective from getting resupplied while slowly whittling down the defenses of the fortification.

Supply crates would destroy this very important mechanic.

I want to upgrade a keep? So I grab a supply crate from godsword and run it down to dreaming bay and deposit, while i have guild mates go to far to reach supply camps and bring in supply. We use a mesmer to portal them in so we can bring them in on any point along the wall of a keep.

Keep gets +500 supply really quickly this way.

Ugh, its horrible. It removes a layer of strategy to wvw.

HenryAu.7523:

I actually like this idea. It forces people to pay attention to the supply lines where the current implementation is largely ignored by the majority of players until someone has tried to upgrade something.

I would like to make a few suggestions:

• Supply crates build up at the camp over time. You can only pick up crates in camp if you control it.
• Accumulated supply crates at camps do not disappear when a camp is taken over.
• You can deliver the crates to any tower/keep/castle you want.
• Successfully delivering a crate is like completing an event and the player gets rewarded accordingly.

What do you think?

I like it. Especially point #3. Because you can then choose to bring supplies to where you really need them.

What I proposed is just a simple idea (basically that it just seems weird to me that supply routes are totally NPC controlled and automatic). But what I wrote is by no means a complete plan. I’m sure others, like you have, can come up with tons of other great ideas and improvements too!

The whole idea of a siege is to surround/camp the entrances to prevent reinforcements and supply. There are a number of famous war heroes in real life where all they ever did was to smuggle in much needed supply into a besieged keep. I don’t see anything wrong with forcing more PvP along the way with this idea.

The whole “you can get a lot of supply really quick” worry is trivially resolved when you set a good cap on how much crates you can accumulate on each camp and the frequency of spawn.

I do dearly wish for an option to drop my supply off at a keep. Everyone’s been in a situation where you’d much rather contribute the 10 supply you’re carrying to a location in trouble.

I might not like the idea of completely replacing the yaks with player carried supply, but the option to do so if necessary would be welcome.

JohnnyRockets.7593:

What I proposed is just a simple idea (basically that it just seems weird to me that supply routes are totally NPC controlled and automatic). But what I wrote is by no means a complete plan. I’m sure others, like you have, can come up with tons of other great ideas and improvements too!

Yeah the current implementation of the dolyaks have always felt wrong to me. A dedicated squad are pretty much guaranteed to kill off the dolyak if they’re determined. That thing just die too fast. Defending it sucks and nobody want to do it. I am very glad you brought this topic up for discussion.

HenryAu.7523:

JohnnyRockets.7593:

What I proposed is just a simple idea (basically that it just seems weird to me that supply routes are totally NPC controlled and automatic). But what I wrote is by no means a complete plan. I’m sure others, like you have, can come up with tons of other great ideas and improvements too!

Yeah the current implementation of the dolyaks have always felt wrong to me. A dedicated squad are pretty much guaranteed to kill off the dolyak if they’re determined. That thing just die too fast. Defending it sucks and nobody want to do it. I am very glad you brought this topic up for discussion.

you don’t see much value in starving an objective in supplies do you..

just curious, how’s the server you on doing..

are you guys crushing or being crushed

honestly speaking.. dolyak ambushes is a very valid strategy.. it’s part of an overlal bigger picture when it’s necessary to starve an objective of supplies

Draygo.9473:

Bad idea.

Like its really bad.

Supply camps and routes are designed to supply specific towers and keeps. Dolyaks are supposed to be raidable caravans so a server can choke an objective from getting resupplied while slowly whittling down the defenses of the fortification.

Supply crates would destroy this very important mechanic.

I want to upgrade a keep? So I grab a supply crate from godsword and run it down to dreaming bay and deposit, while i have guild mates go to far to reach supply camps and bring in supply. We use a mesmer to portal them in so we can bring them in on any point along the wall of a keep.

Keep gets +500 supply really quickly this way.

Ugh, its horrible. It removes a layer of strategy to wvw.

Check out HenryAu’s post; he answered this well.

(I think you were assuming infinite crates that you can pick up any time? Keep it like Dolyaks; only a certain number of crates, maybe even just 1 at a time; and on a timed spawn just like Dolyaks, not pickup whenever you want.)

I can only see this working if picking up supplies rendered the carrying player immune to speedbuffs, portals, etc. so that they are forced to literally hand carry them at normal jogging speed to the destination.

CharliePrince.2071:

you don’t see much value in starving an objective in supplies do you..

I do. I just wish it was attacking a player rather than a fragile npc beast.

CharliePrince.2071:

HenryAu.7523:

JohnnyRockets.7593:

What I proposed is just a simple idea (basically that it just seems weird to me that supply routes are totally NPC controlled and automatic). But what I wrote is by no means a complete plan. I’m sure others, like you have, can come up with tons of other great ideas and improvements too!

Yeah the current implementation of the dolyaks have always felt wrong to me. A dedicated squad are pretty much guaranteed to kill off the dolyak if they’re determined. That thing just die too fast. Defending it sucks and nobody want to do it. I am very glad you brought this topic up for discussion.

you don’t see much value in starving an objective in supplies do you..

just curious, how’s the server you on doing..

are you guys crushing or being crushed

honestly speaking.. dolyak ambushes is a very valid strategy.. it’s part of an overlal bigger picture when it’s necessary to starve an objective of supplies

No, I completely agree with you that starving your target in supply is a great strategy. My problem is with the current implementation of it because it is so easy to kill the dolyaks. The other thing is that it really isn’t very exciting to kill or escort the thing…

GreyWraith.8394:

I can only see this working if picking up supplies rendered the carrying player immune to speedbuffs, portals, etc. so that they are forced to literally hand carry them at normal jogging speed to the destination.

Sounds like a great and fair idea!

I’d like the idea of player-ran supply, so long as supply disappears off the player when they log out. See, the issue right now is that I can run up to a supply camp, grab supply, and log out: on all 6 of my characters.

That would mean that I myself can take 60 supply to a tower in the matter of the time it takes to log-in/log-out and load the map. So, the mechanic of allowing players to supply upgrades instead of just Dolyaks would be defeated by players carrying supply outside the WvW zone when logged. This is only fixed by making supply disappear when a player logs out.

But yes, it would be nice if players were able to supply the keep and tower upgrades. Because then we’d see players traveling to and from much more, defense would have more progression, and people would be training instead of clustering.

Siphaed.9235:

I’d like the idea of player-ran supply, so long as supply disappears off the player when they log out. See, the issue right now is that I can run up to a supply camp, grab supply, and log out: on all 6 of my characters.

That would mean that I myself can take 60 supply to a tower in the matter of the time it takes to log-in/log-out and load the map. So, the mechanic of allowing players to supply upgrades instead of just Dolyaks would be defeated by players carrying supply outside the WvW zone when logged. This is only fixed by making supply disappear when a player logs out.

But yes, it would be nice if players were able to supply the keep and tower upgrades. Because then we’d see players traveling to and from much more, defense would have more progression, and people would be training instead of clustering.

Or log out/disconnect = drop supply to the ground so other teammates can pick up.

why change stuff? OPTIONS. GIVE US OPTIONS.

I agree the current Dolyaks aren’t the best implementation. I was once guarding one, when one enemy came, I think he was a guardian (insane survivability and heals). He focused 100% on the Dolyak, ignoring me completely, he did not hit me once, while I kept trying to kill him off with all I had as a engineer, knockbacks, snares etc. He kept healing and coming back until the Dolyak died, and then he finally died too. So yeah, kinda pointless to defend.

However it wouldn’t work wit the supply carried by players. Class balance. Some classes would be designated as carriers instantly such as thieves (near 100% time of invisibility with the culling bug + blink with bow) and elementalist’s (ride the lightning – uncatchable). Many other classes would feel useless. Will also be abused by player logging their Mesmer alts and forming a chain of portals to instantly transport huge amounts of supply to any keep.

zerospin.8604:

I agree the current Dolyaks aren’t the best implementation. I was once guarding one, when one enemy came, I think he was a guardian (insane survivability and heals). He focused 100% on the Dolyak, ignoring me completely, he did not hit me once, while I kept trying to kill him off with all I had as a engineer, knockbacks, snares etc. He kept healing and coming back until the Dolyak died, and then he finally died too. So yeah, kinda pointless to defend.

However it wouldn’t work wit the supply carried by players. Class balance. Some classes would be designated as carriers instantly such as thieves (near 100% time of invisibility with the culling bug + blink with bow) and elementalist’s (ride the lightning – uncatchable). Many other classes would feel useless. Will also be abused by player logging their Mesmer alts and forming a chain of portals to instantly transport huge amounts of supply to any keep.

Yeah, that is bothersome too. Even if you’re defending as hard as you possibly can, the Dolyaks are still too easy to kill.

Regarding class balance, like GreyWraith said, no speedbuffs, portals etc:

GreyWraith.8394:

I can only see this working if picking up supplies rendered the carrying player immune to speedbuffs, portals, etc. so that they are forced to literally hand carry them at normal jogging speed to the destination.

This would work as long as it had the same implications that the Orb does, namely no waypoints, abilities are all changed ect ect

I am 100% against this idea. Here is why.

First, it is already hard enough to get the average player to run to a supply camp only a short jog away in strongly held territory to build siege rather than take it from the tower supply needed to upgrade the tower. Honestly, do you really think any fortified position would have a chance of actually having supply if it had to depend on players making supply runs?

More importantly, however, I think you are missing the whole point of Dolyaks being interdictable. As pointed out, a small team, or even one person, can kill a Dolyak, meaning supply can be interdicted even if you are greatly outnumberd. By contrast, a server with a large numerical advantage doesn’t have to bother killing Dolyaks. They can just take and keep a supply camp. No supply camp, no Dolyaks at all, so why bother interdicting one at a time if you have a large presence? This mechanic actually helps balance numerical disadvantages in that a smaller presence can still disrupt supply and can force larger forces to have to protect supply routes, not just face-roll supply camps as soon as they are taken.

Additionally if players can carry supply (assuming you can actually get them to), a large force that has a numerical advantage can easily run groups of players to deliver supply, daring a smaller force to try and stop them. Not so for a smaller force. If you can get players to make supply runs to start with, they will have to face zergs looking for player kills who would only bother interdicting a yak if they happened to be near it.

So, no thanks. All this would do is further the supply problems in the game, especially for servers who are outnumbered, making it that much tougher for those who are already behind to catch back up.

Sotaudi.1265:

I am 100% against this idea. Here is why.

First, it is already hard enough to get the average player to run to a supply camp only a short jog away in strongly held territory to build siege rather than take it from the tower supply needed to upgrade the tower. Honestly, do you really think any fortified position would have a chance of actually having supply if it had to depend on players making supply runs?

More importantly, however, I think you are missing the whole point of Dolyaks being interdictable. As pointed out, a small team, or even one person, can kill a Dolyak, meaning supply can be interdicted even if you are greatly outnumberd. By contrast, a server with a large numerical advantage doesn’t have to bother killing Dolyaks. They can just take and keep a supply camp. No supply camp, no Dolyaks at all, so why bother interdicting one at a time if you have a large presence? This mechanic actually helps balance numerical disadvantages in that a smaller presence can still disrupt supply and can force larger forces to have to protect supply routes, not just face-roll supply camps as soon as they are taken.

Additionally if players can carry supply (assuming you can actually get them to), a large force that has a numerical advantage can easily run groups of players to deliver supply, daring a smaller force to try and stop them. Not so for a smaller force. If you can get players to make supply runs to start with, they will have to face zergs looking for player kills who would only bother interdicting a yak if they happened to be near it.

So, no thanks. All this would do is further the supply problems in the game, especially for servers who are outnumbered, making it that much tougher for those who are already behind to catch back up.

I think you bring up some very valid points. However the only difference between our current situation right now and the proposal is that the “outnumbered servers” can snipe some yaks. I’m not really convinced these yaks sniping will turn the table around for the outnumbered servers. Let’s see this week’s current scores in NA.

http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA

Check out the top NA tiers. The losing servers are actually very very good servers. I’m sure if sniping yaks make that much difference some of those scores ought to be different. I really don’t think the suggestion is as game breaking as you imply.

Another thing is I believe people don’t escort yaks because it seems pointless. They die no matter what you do and however desperate you want that upgrade. Unless you want to have a zerg to escort each yak, it’s just not really viable.

I have faith in the player base that they will actually run supply when they are allowed to do so. I know that we already make supply chain to repair and build siege defenses. It also seem potentially more fun to have players chasing each other and fighting to intercept supply.

carrying supplies by us is tactical, and a must to win the war.

there is nothing wrong with it as it is.

I got all excited when I saw that engi gets supply crate, untill I found out its a air drop of turrets, my poor dream of dropping a lage crate of supplies at a siege were shattered. As somebody who loves siege both attack and defence I would love to be a walking supply camp. Especially when I’m trying to build some arrow carts on a newly taken keep.

Make it a wagon + dolyak. If the dolyak gets sniped a player can haul the wagon for less speed or escort a new dolyak to the wagon.
The wagon has a higher hp and is destructible if no one is pulling it(the damage goes to the person/dolyak moving it) or it will decay if left alone for too long.
I personally would like to man the wagon and have skills that will whip the dolyak to move faster or use buffs to make it last longer. Much more fun then just escorting

I’d rather allow guilds to claim supply camps and by claiming it give them power to tell the Dolyaks where to go (obviously they have to stick to the routes, but you could have them skip a bunch of towers to have them simply wander back and forth from supply camp to one tower).

Dolyaks are good IMO. It’d be nice to have a degree of control over your supply line though. Trouble with all this of course is griefing. People would tell them to go where it’s unneeded.

With the OP’s suggestion could a kitten not simply be a kitten and take the supply back where it came from to be a kitten?

zerospin.8604:

However it wouldn’t work wit the supply carried by players. Class balance. Some classes would be designated as carriers instantly such as thieves (near 100% time of invisibility with the culling bug + blink with bow) and elementalist’s (ride the lightning – uncatchable). Many other classes would feel useless. Will also be abused by player logging their Mesmer alts and forming a chain of portals to instantly transport huge amounts of supply to any keep.

With this in mind, if this actually gets implemented, I hope that the player holding the supplies has their attacks and slot skills disabled. I mean really, who can fight while holding a crate of supplies..?

The only thing about Dolyaks is that they drop supply off at the front door. They need to slowboat it through what’s usually 50 enemies and right next to the gate. The enemy doesn’t even truly need to worry about supply camps. They get effortless event completions for them periodically.

Why not put a second “gate” somewhere on the structures (maybe on the back) for the banthas alone. Just a texture really. Make some of the enemy force do something that pulls them away from spamming the gate or ramparts if they just mindlessly zerg keeps without securing points like supply camps.

Players being able to add the supply to the depot in any tower/keep should be enough.
always wondered why i couldn’t help the workers upgrade anything :P

Draygo.9473:

Bad idea.

Like its really bad.

Supply camps and routes are designed to supply specific towers and keeps. Dolyaks are supposed to be raidable caravans so a server can choke an objective from getting resupplied while slowly whittling down the defenses of the fortification.

Supply crates would destroy this very important mechanic.

I want to upgrade a keep? So I grab a supply crate from godsword and run it down to dreaming bay and deposit, while i have guild mates go to far to reach supply camps and bring in supply. We use a mesmer to portal them in so we can bring them in on any point along the wall of a keep.

Keep gets +500 supply really quickly this way.

Ugh, its horrible. It removes a layer of strategy to wvw.

First off to address Mes make it so people carrying a supply crate can’t use a mesmer portal problem solved.

Secondly you can STILL starve a supply line, L2PvP and kill the players running the supply in, this forces MORE pvp into WvW and not the “I can PVE a Yak kitten ”

This also gives the defense teams a much needed buff, currently attackers just ram bodies at the door or have 10 people gather around and rez ANYONE the defense team takes down. The only way to take down an offense team is to zerg it with your own offense team.

Also I believe Yaks should stay and players should only carry a small amount. If the player dies he should also drop the supply for the other team to obtain… Little things like this can be adjusted once the system is in place but it adds more fight to PVP