Guild Wars 2

KazNaka.4718:

Pirlipat.2479:

If you fight 3 vs 1 you already have a disadvantage so what’s your point? The guy you downed is not dead yet so like I said deal with it. Simply as that.

Ravbek.7938:

I too like the downed state, it adds another dynamic and promotes team play.

This is exactly why it’s bad in wvw. It promotes the zerg as opposed to the roamer. Whoever has the higher number almost always wins. And currently in wvw, lopsided teams occur very often. It is not fun at all to solo roam because you’re always at a disadvantage.

If you want to call 3 people a zerg…

You really going to try to make the case that WvW isn’t about the zerg? C’mon now.

Firegoth.6427:

Or just play the class that you find so OP instead.
Maxing and alt in this game takes much much less time than any other MMO, which was the best idea in the history of mmorpg’s.

Well that’s just silly. There are several games faster than this one for hitting the cap, but this is a relatively short game from a leveling experience stand point.

Sorry! On topic: Downed state is a bad idea in PvP/WvW, but Anet doesn’t like to admit they are wrong. Don’t get your hopes up.

It’s like the eventual under water living story I’m pretty sure they are going to make at some point. God help us when that happens, under water combat is awful to me.

I like the presumption oozing from the thread title, as if downed state is a bug that should have been addressed by now.

What do you mean why is it still there?

Did you think it would be going somewhere?

It’s part of the game, if you don’t like it, don’t play WvW or play a different game altogether. The developers are not framing the game’s updates around what parts of the game you personally give a thumbs-up.

brb while I start an equally ill-worded and nonsensical new thread called ‘Why still pets in ranger profession?’

Facepunch.5710:

I like the presumption oozing from the thread title, as if downed state is a bug that should have been addressed by now.

What do you mean why is it still there?

Did you think it would be going somewhere?

It’s part of the game, if you don’t like it, don’t play WvW or play a different game altogether. The developers are not framing the game’s updates around what parts of the game you personally give a thumbs-up.

brb while I start an equally ill-worded and nonsensical new thread called ‘Why still pets in ranger profession?’

“Please take your tinfoil hats off and be reasonable. ~ReginaB”

Comon dude, it’s even in your signature. It’s not like this is a new issue either way, there are several topics out there about downed state disparity and reasons why it detracts from WvW, strategy, fun, and multiple other factors.

The argument can be made both ways for strategy I suppose, but there is nothing more infuriating than winning a fight and having a zerg roll in and just rez everyone. All downed state really does is award players for making mistakes by getting a second chance for essentially being bad.

Aeonblade.8709:

Facepunch.5710:

I like the presumption oozing from the thread title, as if downed state is a bug that should have been addressed by now.

What do you mean why is it still there?

Did you think it would be going somewhere?

It’s part of the game, if you don’t like it, don’t play WvW or play a different game altogether. The developers are not framing the game’s updates around what parts of the game you personally give a thumbs-up.

brb while I start an equally ill-worded and nonsensical new thread called ‘Why still pets in ranger profession?’

“Please take your tinfoil hats off and be reasonable. ~ReginaB”

Comon dude, it’s even in your signature. It’s not like this is a new issue either way, there are several topics out there about downed state disparity and reasons why it detracts from WvW, strategy, fun, and multiple other factors.

The argument can be made both ways for strategy I suppose, but there is nothing more infuriating than winning a fight and having a zerg roll in and just rez everyone. All downed state really does is allow players to make mistakes and get a second chance for playing poorly the first go around.

You are actually trying to make the argument that a number of players have detailed how they perceive downed state to be a harmful mechanic so it is therefore, objectively, a harmful mechanic.

you are doing the same thing by trying to act like everyone loves it

dcypher.2590:

you are doing the same thing by trying to act like everyone loves it

Source?

huh? 0.o

lol

dcypher.2590:

You really going to try to make the case that WvW isn’t about the zerg? C’mon now.

I realize WvW is about the zerg, large-scale and epic battles. But it is also about the interactions of small-scale groups and roamers. To be honest, zergs don’t need the downed state. There’s so many people and death is just part of it, just like in any movies.

It’s primarily a concern for the smaller-scale fights. Removing the downed state would make it more fair, for both sides. If the solo roamer is able to kill someone, he gets the loot/exp. If a teammate dies in a group of 5, he can wait for rez.

So people are complaining that Downed State promotes less skilled play yet it requires more skill to kill over all?

Translation: I’m not good enough to kill in this game so the game should compensate me instead.

I say, too bad. Devs decided to compensate group play instead of you.

I think even allowing custom arenas to turn it off is a source in itself that it blows in pvp and that at least somebody at ArenaNet knows people want to play without the gimmick. Hopefully it will translate to the rest of pvp eventually.

Now, I doubt that they decided to add that feature because everyone thinks it’s awesome and it’s such an amazing part of the combat structure…

dcypher.2590:

huh? 0.o

lol

I guess I’ll explain it for you. You said that I was ‘acting like everyone likes it.’ I asked for a source. As in, what comment that I made led you to think that I’m suggesting everyone likes downed state.

What I did say is that downed state is an intentional mechanic in the game, and to be appalled that it hasn’t been removed, as the OP seems to be, simply because some players have posted criticisms of it is just silly.

If you are still having trouble with reading comprehension, I will restate my position on whether downed state is a ‘good’ mechanic and whether I think most people like it:
I haven’t stated my position.

I like the downed state idea. Maybe skills could use some tweaking, what doesnt.

But I dont follow the complaint of “I killed him he should be dead wuwuwu” … if you kill someone he is dead and have to be revived by someone else or at a WP. People arent dead in downed state, they’re just on their last leg. If you attack someone, he goes down and you break off, you didnt kill him.

Mastruq.2463:

I like the downed state idea. Maybe skills could use some tweaking, what doesnt.

But I dont follow the complaint of “I killed him he should be dead wuwuwu” … if you kill someone he is dead and have to be revived by someone else or at a WP. People arent dead in downed state, they’re just on their last leg. If you attack someone, he goes down and you break off, you didnt kill him.

If you want to be realistic about it like you are inferring in your post, then they would lay there “downed” and freaking bleed out no matter how many idiots held out their hands and stood over them, because they just got their face chopped in half with a sword.

It is simply an aditional mechanic that triggers at 0 hp. If it triggered at 10% or something the mechanic would be the same still.

Aeonblade.8709:

Mastruq.2463:

I like the downed state idea. Maybe skills could use some tweaking, what doesnt.

But I dont follow the complaint of “I killed him he should be dead wuwuwu” … if you kill someone he is dead and have to be revived by someone else or at a WP. People arent dead in downed state, they’re just on their last leg. If you attack someone, he goes down and you break off, you didnt kill him.

If you want to be realistic about it like you are inferring in your post, then they would lay there “downed” and freaking bleed out no matter how many idiots held out their hands and stood over them, because they just got their face chopped in half with a sword.

The word you meant to use was implying, not inferring, except he isn’t implying that he wants things to be realistic, he’s outright stating that people continue to argue that if you ‘down’ someone, you’ve won the fight, when that is not the case. The reason it is not the case is not because it isn’t realistic, just because that isn’t how the game works. In the game, downed =/= dead.

Facepunch.5710:

Aeonblade.8709:

Mastruq.2463:

I like the downed state idea. Maybe skills could use some tweaking, what doesnt.

But I dont follow the complaint of “I killed him he should be dead wuwuwu” … if you kill someone he is dead and have to be revived by someone else or at a WP. People arent dead in downed state, they’re just on their last leg. If you attack someone, he goes down and you break off, you didnt kill him.

If you want to be realistic about it like you are inferring in your post, then they would lay there “downed” and freaking bleed out no matter how many idiots held out their hands and stood over them, because they just got their face chopped in half with a sword.

The word you meant to use was implying, not inferring, except he isn’t implying that he wants things to be realistic, he’s outright stating that people continue to argue that if you ‘down’ someone, you’ve won the fight, when that is not the case. The reason it is not the case is not because it isn’t realistic, just because that isn’t how the game works. In the game, downed =/= dead.

in·fer: to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises

I don’t see the problem, if you don’t have a position on this, why are you in here spamming our thread?

Aeonblade.8709:

Facepunch.5710:

Aeonblade.8709:

Mastruq.2463:

I like the downed state idea. Maybe skills could use some tweaking, what doesnt.

But I dont follow the complaint of “I killed him he should be dead wuwuwu” … if you kill someone he is dead and have to be revived by someone else or at a WP. People arent dead in downed state, they’re just on their last leg. If you attack someone, he goes down and you break off, you didnt kill him.

If you want to be realistic about it like you are inferring in your post, then they would lay there “downed” and freaking bleed out no matter how many idiots held out their hands and stood over them, because they just got their face chopped in half with a sword.

The word you meant to use was implying, not inferring, except he isn’t implying that he wants things to be realistic, he’s outright stating that people continue to argue that if you ‘down’ someone, you’ve won the fight, when that is not the case. The reason it is not the case is not because it isn’t realistic, just because that isn’t how the game works. In the game, downed =/= dead.

in·fer: to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises

I don’t see the problem, if you don’t have a position on this, why are you in here spamming our thread?

Because this isn’t ‘your’ thread :P

We all get to express our opinion on a topic so long as said opinion is directly related to the topic of the thread.

i don’t have a problem with downed-state. It’s an interesting mechanic, and it’s in every part of the game, so L2P or move on.

It’s not an entirely novel concept— Left4Dead has it, Borderlands has it (albeit, maybe not in pvp, im not sure).

If you kill someone and they get rezzed by two teammates…sounds like a 1v3 situation i don’t know why you would expect to win in the first place.

I’m up for nerfing the downed state and player reviving (at least in wvw, in pve is ok). When u reach 0 hp u go in downed state, if u rally and reach 0hp again u DIE, with no exceptions and solutions, and u’re forced to respawn @wp. More fair in all the situations when u’re outmanned and the enemies keep ressing and reviving each others.

Aeonblade.8709:

in·fer: to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises

I don’t see the problem, if you don’t have a position on this, why are you in here spamming our thread?

im·ply
strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated)

in·fer
to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises

He implied, you inferred. This is not a point for debate, it’s just what these words mean. If you don’t understand the difference, I don’t know what to tell you.

As to why I’m “spamming” this thread:
I haven’t stated an opinion on whether I like downed-state or not, but I have made points about why it’s in the game, which is exactly what should be under discussion as per the title of the thread. You and others responded to my points and then I replied. Isn’t this the purpose of a public forum?

Its a necessary evil in pve, due to the whole game being based on one-shots.

Useless and annoying in pvp/wvw.

Zero.6082:

…. you lost all your life in every other game but this one that means dead XD so now the life bar counts for nothing. Downed is when you get knocked down. Dead is when you lose all your life. I have seen a warrior rally 5 times using his third downed skill and rejoining his group to kill someone. I have played thief in a fight downed warrior. Another guy runs over to help him and now warrior uses rally two vs 1 instead of the 1 vs 1 that it should have been now i have to fight the warrior all over again.

You never rally with full HP, so it’s not “all over again”, then you have a mechanic in game so the more times you get down the less HP you have on down state & rally (that little down arrow on the health sphere).

This is just how the game was build, I’d imagine everyone here complaining about it have had several kills taken away because of this and that makes them mad.
But I bet when they save themselves with the same mechanics they are despising here (like kill an NPC to rally, etc) they get a big grin on their faces, do you guys seriously give up when you get in the down state? I’ve NEVER seen anyone doing that, and this short of mechanic was present in other games before GW2 came out, so nothing new and unic like a user was suggesting.

Mastruq.2463:

I like the downed state idea. Maybe skills could use some tweaking, what doesnt.

But I dont follow the complaint of “I killed him he should be dead wuwuwu” … if you kill someone he is dead and have to be revived by someone else or at a WP. People arent dead in downed state, they’re just on their last leg. If you attack someone, he goes down and you break off, you didnt kill him.

Ok so you say they’re on their last leg. Would it make sense, then, that they get more hp than if they were up and running? That they’re harder to kill than when they’re up? Does it make sense that we have to do a finishing animation that takes 3 seconds to channel and can be (and most likely will be) interrupted at any point?

I made the suggestion of on a borderland if you are downed IN WATER you are instantly killed, my idea was that if water is made suddenly more lethal than any spot like the river outside bay or attacking the water gate at garrison becomes much more risky.

Terrain would basically be a factor of if you can win a fight, if you held your river bank and forced an enemy group into the water they would die much faster, if you could kill any reinforcements going to attack your water gate before they got out of the water they would have a much longer respawn than you would as a defender.

I also imagined other terrain bonuses, if you are higher than your target you have a slightly higher range, throwing a rock off a wall will go further than throwing it on flat ground after all so defenders would have a higher range than attackers making sieging a harder process if the enemy are organised.

Throw in that paths make you move faster and WvW becomes much more tactical

Do you use the paths to get to the enemy faster but take a predictable route? or do you take the slower route which will he harder to predict?

Do you ambush the enemy in the water aiming to stop them rezing or do you wait for them on land?

etc

I love downed state and hope to see it remain in the game.

People always complain about “PvP is too simple!” “NEED MOAR STRATEGERIES!”… then they get something strategic added to the game and they are like “ZOMG THIS SUCKS! PEOPLE WHO ARE SKILLED AT USING IT CAN BEAT ME BECAUSE OF IT! WORST IDEA IN MMO HISTORY!”

/smh

The best so far is “Groups can use it to be unbeatable!”. Yea, that also applies to heals. Is healing also the worst idea in MMO history?

The downed state is a critical part of the balance of pvp in this game, all the skills.. numbers.. health pools of professions are balanced around all things that effect combat, which includes that chance for a comeback from being downed.

Removing the downed state in custom pvp might suit a dueling style gameplay, but it does essentially break part of the balance that Anet have been shooting for with there game so far..

It’s part of the game, get over it.. if you blitz someone down in a few moments with your build and then struggle to finish them off.. that is a weakness you need to overcome, not for the devs to fix for you, it’s balanced this way for a reason :P

Mattidore.3482:

the worst idea in the history of mmorpg’s

You must not know about the 80% damage increase to Arrowcarts

I don’t have a big problem with downed state.

Let me address some of the supporters of the downed state. The common consensus of people who are pro-downed state seems to be:

1) Promotes team play
- no it doesn’t it promotes numbers. If you died instead of getting “downed” at 0, you need more co-ordination and team work in order to play as a coherent unit because every death of a team-member counts. Whereas with downed state, bad play is compensated by the ability to rez your dead team mate in like 5 seconds.
This is why WvW is just a zerg vs zerg and no-one outside people who play WvW i mean ZvZ, takes gw2’s pvp seriously. Which is a pity since GW1 and expansions, were renowned for it’s pvp.
If downed state was removed it would actually feel like WvW where a smaller unit can defend against zerg twice it’s size .

2) PvP is balanced around downed state
- yes, that is how kitten Anet is. They balanced pvp around a mechanic that isn’t balanced which gives certain professions huge advantages over other professions (see mesmer).

3) It’s your fault for building zerker.
I’m a warrior. I don’t build zerker. Most of my fights with professions like thief and mesmer last 20 seconds or more (just an estimate). I out sustain them and usually end up killing – I mean downing – them first with extremely low health. (Now if this was an mmo with worthwhile pvp, I should technically have “won” the fight.) This is actually advantageous for them UNLESS my heal HAPPENS to come up in time to finish them off. Otherwise I have to expose myself to their 1 and risk getting downed. And it’s ALWAYS more detrimental to the player that gets downed 2nd.
Some of you may say, but you have rifle… but why should I be forced to carry a rifle in these situations if pvp is balanced around the downed state?

Face it, Anet kittened up on downed state and they won’t admit how stupid their mistake was. No decent game with decent game has this downy downed mechanic.

Aten.8046:

I’m up for nerfing the downed state and player reviving (at least in wvw, in pve is ok). When u reach 0 hp u go in downed state, if u rally and reach 0hp again u DIE, with no exceptions and solutions, and u’re forced to respawn @wp. More fair in all the situations when u’re outmanned and the enemies keep ressing and reviving each others.

This kinda exists already though the debuff is overly drawn out to like 6-7 rallys before insta death

+1 for down state being stupid.

Downed state at the very least should not be able to do the kind of damage it does now.

You should only be able to lay down and perhaps interrupt a stomp but that’s it.

The downed states are simply way too unbalanced as of now.

Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
Downed state is fine
Stop your qq

I don’t really mind downed state, it does add some diversity to the game and I’ve seen enough players in 1v2 or 1v3 situations and still being able to finish their opponents off, and no this doesn’t always require stealthstomps. All I see here is people who are unable to finish people off in the downed state and then complain about it on the forums.

If you’re a profession that doesn’t have some kind of stealth of invulnerability stomp, and you’re a lot better at playing your character than your 2+ opponents, it’s usually better to focus on the people ressing the player you downed than overcommitting to getting the stomp on that downed player, which usually ends up wasting your time and you taking some free damage.

Having said that, I do think some improvements could be made to the downed state, like decreasing the cast time of a stomp or nerf the ressing speed. Some professions also have better/more useful abilities in their downed state than others, which could also need some balancing.

I think it they did away with the whole concept of Rallying it would be OK.

Nothing is more stupid than in a battle trying to kill someone and they just rally time and time again because theyve gone and tagged your entire team. Just stupid really, but I dont mind the downed state other than that.

It’s fun. I really laughed when I read the first post in this thread. Suggesting to remove downed state OR give every class the same skills.

I mean in WvW it doesn’t matter that much with all the zergs if there are some classes with stronger downed skills.

And downed itself is not the problem – it is necessary because there are no healer classes.

The only problem – and he did NOT mention this: The unlimited rallying. Also in sPvP often discussed: You are downed and just need to do 1-2 hits on some enemy that gets killed and then you can rally… oh and tons of people can rally from ONE person.

That does not make sense. This needs to be removed completely(only downed + bandage or rezzing from others) OR limited: Only the person that did the most damage is allowed to rally(if he is still up nobody will get to rally).

Luthan.5236:

It’s fun. I really laughed when I read the first post in this thread. Suggesting to remove downed state OR give every class the same skills.

I mean in WvW it doesn’t matter that much with all the zergs if there are some classes with stronger downed skills.

And downed itself is not the problem – it is necessary because there are no healer classes.

The only problem – and he did NOT mention this: The unlimited rallying. Also in sPvP often discussed: You are downed and just need to do 1-2 hits on some enemy that gets killed and then you can rally… oh and tons of people can rally from ONE person.

That does not make sense. This needs to be removed completely(only downed + bandage or rezzing from others) OR limited: Only the person that did the most damage is allowed to rally(if he is still up nobody will get to rally).

Adding onto your suggestion (because I like it), cap the rallying to 2 or 3 people. Only that number can rally off a single enemy dying while in WvW…which would fix SOME of the problems instead of everybody and their mother rallying off a single person.

Why don’t they make a trap that doesn’t allow downed state?

silkysoft.6749:

Why don’t they make a trap that doesn’t allow downed state?

Please don’t give them completely idiotic ideas, it is far too likely that ANet might implement it.

It needs some tuning. It’s not really fine that the enemy zerg gets rallied because 1 random green arrow died. I feel that I can’t bring my upscale warrior to zerg warfare because he dies too easily and is so helping the enemy.
Ressing speed could also use a small nerf. It’s currently faster than stomping even if only 1 person is ressing.

Downed state is anti-burst mechanic, and absolutely necessary in game without specialized healers. If brainless glasscannon know only how to unload burst and cannot finish the job – its 101% l2p thing. Don’t want l2p? Go QQ more, no one cares.

Downed state is fine. You’ve many ways to prevent reviving. If you can’t, you maybe tried to solo too many alone or your zerg just isn’t finishing ppl fast enough.

Good things:
1. random spike might get you downed but your buddies can revive you, if they don’t get downed in process
2. prevents going berserk with burst builds i.e thief. you can only take so many ppl alone since they’ll revive their buddies.
3. add more tactics like interrupting stomp or revive etc. maybe you should have brought that hammer to interrupt instead of lets say double axe

Bad things:
1. too many things get you a free rally in wvw. you hit a deer and it gives a rally when it dies in random aoe. cmon. I’m fine with random animals or whatsoever but don’t let ppl use them in that way. WHY???? -> because npc’s don’t have downed state, they shouldn’t give rally either.
2. rally favors some “tag farming” builds apparently. take a hit on about everything and get rally when they die. uhmm…
3. some downed skills maybe do too much dmg or are relatively too powerful, this is bigger problem in small groups than 1v1 or zerg. Lets put up and example: I’d down a thief..ok.. I am at like maybe 50-60% hp but when this dude goes downed he starts hitting like a truck, downs me before my stomp gets through, gets a rally from random turtle I almost killed by accident and stomps me. I can live with that, but I can really relate to pain some ppl feel about this. It surely doesn’t feel right there.

added: Also I’ve real problem not with downed but death. When you die you really shouldn’t see what happens, also character should be ported back to base after fixed time so you can’t just wait some invisible rez etc. lame stuff.

You think your having it bad with downed states try playing a Necromancer who have 66% less downed state health and terrible downed skills.

The downed state is too tied in the game mechanics, you can’t take it out. What could be taken out is the rallying, and the game would be much better if that happened.

The downed state is too tied in the game mechanics, you can’t take it out. What could be taken out is the rallying, and the game would be much better if that happened.

i think they could absolutely take it out. since they are going to start balancing the game separately, they could just take it out in wvw. if you die, you die.

Scarn.1703:

2052096 kitten 2746:

The downed state is too tied in the game mechanics, you can’t take it out. What could be taken out is the rallying, and the game would be much better if that happened.

i think they could absolutely take it out. since they are going to start balancing the game separately, they could just take it out in wvw. if you die, you die.

There are too much traits and skills that rely on the downed state, it’s too much work to take it all out of the game. I would be more than content with just getting rid of the rallying.

jalmari.3906:

Downed state is fine. You’ve many ways to prevent reviving. If you can’t, you maybe tried to solo too many alone or your zerg just isn’t finishing ppl fast enough.

Downed state is not fine. Lol at “you maybe tried to solo too many alone”. The reality is way different sadly. In real gw2 a small group is always disadvantaged no matter how good it plays and guess the reason…yea downed state. As a solo player there’s no way you can stomp a player in a group of 4 or more…there are 2 options here: the first one is they simply revive their stupid teammate, the solo-guy won’t stomp the player fast enough (he could use quickness ofc, but still…); the second one is they destoy the stomper spamming random buttons or submerge him with aoe if stealthed.
Ofc you can mention tons of solo thieves and their c00l videos on youtube against semi-afk players and stuff like that. Well, this won’t disprove my statement. Downed state is bad in wvw and only benefits big groups (=zerg).

There are too much traits and skills that rely on the downed state, it’s too much work to take it all out of the game. I would be more than content with just getting rid of the rallying.

Really? Too much work? Maybe you are right. I suppose it’s time for them to stop working on quaggan backpacks and start doing something useful for this game.

Mattidore.3482:

And it’s ALWAYS more detrimental to the player that gets downed 2nd.

What?

I think the situations that I’ve ever lost a 1v1 downed fight where I was downed second except against a Warrior who vengeanced.

The only other situation that would even be feasible in is if you (somehow) got downed by a Ranger in the process of being ressed by his pet.

Otherwise, you have a huge advantage because they’ve had to waste time attacking you to down you, where their health was degenerating.

They need to set a limit on how many times you can rally. 1 time is enough. 5 is to much.
I can’t even count how many times ive set up seige in camps downed partys only to have them all target one guard and rally (no you don’t have enough time to spike or attack them to death)
I can’t see them removing down state (sadly) but they should at least lower the amount of rallys you get.