Guild Wars 2

Every update for WvW seems to bring on more whining. The arrow carts buff and now the traps have become a huge morale sinker for many players.

Zergs today do not even fight each other. I play on Blackgate and our guild loves a good fight, but we can’t get those fights anymore because the enemy just runs away. We have to catch them off guard or fight them when they have built enough arrow carts in open field. That is when we just build our ballistas and destroy their arrow carts and then they run away again.

What if WvW had no siege? It seems that people are crying about not being able to play with their characters abilities because of the requirement for taking a keep.

In all seriousness I say go to Spvp if you want to use your character’s skills. WvW is about taking capture points and holding them with siege equipment. The individual is not important in major scale war. It is about who has the resources and their strategies and tactics on how to use those resources best.

If that is not what you want to do then go to Spvp. Yes I told you to play something else.

Yes. I’d like to remove everything except rams and catapults. And if/when that happens I’d like you to go play something else.

Rams and catapults??? BORING.

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

Oh joy, it’s one of those “Reality” types that think that what this game needs is some nice dull simulation in it. Of course, everyone knows that during D-Day, the Americans at Omaha Beach simply built trebs to try to slowly plink at the German’s carefully hidden arrow carts, all while the British and Canadians yelled over mapchat at them for attacking the wrong spot.

ViRuE.3612:

Yes. I’d like to remove everything except rams and catapults. And if/when that happens I’d like you to go play something else.

OMG yes, strategy and fighting would happen again! No freekills hiding behind AC’s and Trebs, Siege would actually MAKE fighting instead of deter it.

Sometimes simplicity has it’s bonuses.

Alternatively they could just kittening fix AC’s and remove Siege golems.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

The individual is not important in major scale war.

I don’t completely agree with that statement. Even in zerg vs zerg a small number of people people play a huge role in whether you win or lose. If the right people aren’t in the right place your zerg melts, if the right people do their jobs the opposing zerg melts. A 60 vs 60 engagement comes down to 5 or 6 people doing the right things at the right times.

Maladon.5760:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

The individual is not important in major scale war.

I don’t completely agree with that statement. Even in zerg vs zerg a small number of people people play a huge role in whether you win or lose. If the right people aren’t in the right place your zerg melts, if the right people do their jobs the opposing zerg melts. A 60 vs 60 engagement comes down to 5 or 6 people doing the right things at the right times.

In 60v60 you get skill lag. I seriously can’t see how 5-6 people make a difference pressing 1.

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I still have yet to see how zergs are breaking the game. In every large-scale PvP game I’ve played in (not many mind you), there have ALWAYS been ‘zergs’. And what people call ‘zergs’ can be totally different. Is a well coordinate guild group of 50 a zerg? if so, then you’re saying that guild groups are breaking the game, and that grouping as a large guild should be punished. Is a group of 50 coordinate pugs a zerg? If so, then you’re saying communication is breaking the game. Is a group of 50 uncoordinate people a zerg? Well…you should be able to smash them to bits since they’re not coordinating! A well-coordinated 20 man group can take on twice its numbers if their opponents are well coordinated.

Siege adds, if anything, more for small groups to do. A few people on AC’s above a gate can stop a huge group from taking a keep (this was true even BEFORE the update). “Zergs” are nothing more than large groups of people, which is what you will expect in large scale warfare. I don’t understand what people were expecting in WORLD vs WORLD…a bunch of 5-10 man squads running around?

This isn’t antagonistic, but I have yet to see a good clear explaination of this, and what people are defining as a zerg, and how that is killing the game. (Note, I prefer doing small group ninja stuff, but if I get stomped by a 40 man group, then I get stomped, and I come back)

Siege breaks zergs, siege is good. It also makes taking keeps harder, which is good. Remeber a month ago when you could take keeps in 2-3 mins?

That was fun?

PearlGore.7419:

Siege breaks zergs, siege is good. It also makes taking keeps harder, which is good. Remeber a month ago when you could take keeps in 2-3 mins?

That was fun?

Taking keeps at ease = more open field/choke point fighting. Sadly players that enjoy that kind of gameplay are just a small niche, but the niche is there nonetheless.

It’s very fun.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

I play on Blackgate and our guild loves a good fight, but we can’t get those fights anymore because the enemy just runs away.

Funny, i play on SoR and all i ever see is BG running.

As for no siege, its a no. Siege makes the WvW experience unique, however they do need to do some major re-balancing of all the siege and make there damage more dynamic vs other siege types rather then static such as arrow cart > catapult, ram, ballista.

I want golems with arrow carts for hands and a cannon mounted on its head.

Handin.4032:

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I still have yet to see how zergs are breaking the game. In every large-scale PvP game I’ve played in (not many mind you), there have ALWAYS been ‘zergs’. And what people call ‘zergs’ can be totally different. Is a well coordinate guild group of 50 a zerg? if so, then you’re saying that guild groups are breaking the game, and that grouping as a large guild should be punished. Is a group of 50 coordinate pugs a zerg? If so, then you’re saying communication is breaking the game. Is a group of 50 uncoordinate people a zerg? Well…you should be able to smash them to bits since they’re not coordinating! A well-coordinated 20 man group can take on twice its numbers if their opponents are well coordinated.

Siege adds, if anything, more for small groups to do. A few people on AC’s above a gate can stop a huge group from taking a keep (this was true even BEFORE the update). “Zergs” are nothing more than large groups of people, which is what you will expect in large scale warfare. I don’t understand what people were expecting in WORLD vs WORLD…a bunch of 5-10 man squads running around?

This isn’t antagonistic, but I have yet to see a good clear explaination of this, and what people are defining as a zerg, and how that is killing the game. (Note, I prefer doing small group ninja stuff, but if I get stomped by a 40 man group, then I get stomped, and I come back)

5 people hit you with skill #1 , you heal and fight back.
50 people hit you with skill #1, you die, respawn and are forced to stay within the larger group in order to absorb the damage and survive=no freedom of play

10 man group loses 5 players in a fight= 50% less effective, they mourn and miss their brethren
50 man group loses 5 players = meh?

This is my personal opinion and some people prefer to stay in large numbers and automash skill 1 +occasional heal and stability. But the players personal contribution loses its value and that kinda ruins the fun for me.

Spets, yeah I agree that running in a zerg is definitely less fun for me compared to small groups. However, I don’t think it ruins the game..on the other hand, some of the most epic fights I have had were 60v60’s in enemy keeps against other well coordinate large groups. I remember one fight in garrison seemed to last FOREVER, and there was lost of individual contributions (portals for reinforcements, heals, siege being manned, etc) all while fightign inside garrison.

Ascii.9726:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

I play on Blackgate and our guild loves a good fight, but we can’t get those fights anymore because the enemy just runs away.

Funny, i play on SoR and all i ever see is BG running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hWQX8mSZcA

As for no siege, its a no. Siege makes the WvW experience unique, however they do need to do some major re-balancing of all the siege and make there damage more dynamic vs other siege types rather then static such as arrow cart > catapult, ram, ballista.

I’m not from KnT. Never seen TW and I heard you guys were just annoying. I play oceanic time.

I don’t think its about removing siege all together, I think its about the place that siege has in regards to WvW. Siege is there to help you get into a structure. Siege is there to assist in defending that structure, siege is NOT meant to play the game for you either by being IWIN buttons, insta-gib buttons or anything relative to that. From my perspective I want to see a game that has siege in it based around utility and assistance that needs players in order to achieve a desired goal. Attacking a tower/keep requires the need for siege and players in order to pull off a successful capture – Siege takes down the gates/walls and then the players go in and capture. Defence doesnt require that much in terms of player interaction currently due to ACs being the behemoth of defence – Ideally I would like to see siege supplement defence as opposed to be the defence. Players should be the defence not siege.

I would like to see Ladders that you can use to put up against walls and climb. That will keep players defending what they just capped.

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I keep seeing people complain about zergs…but no one has a good reason why they’re bad.

I love running in small groups and I love running in zergs. They’re both valid, and very fun, ways to play the game.

If zergs were ever affected to the point of being non-viable, people would leave the WvW game in droves. Why? Because zergs are fun and important to the process.

Hickeroar.9734:

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I keep seeing people complain about zergs…but no one has a good reason why they’re bad.

I love running in small groups and I love running in zergs. They’re both valid, and very fun, ways to play the game.

If zergs were ever affected to the point of being non-viable, people would leave the WvW game in droves. Why? Because zergs are fun and important to the process.

Lag.

The siege was mostly fine the way it was before this latest patch. It’s not the siege that’s the problem, for the most part, it’s AN’s implementation of it that is. Once they fix the arrow carts, hopefully the next thing they’ll do is increase the depspawn time on temporary siege to at least an hour. Having to run around and tick siege as much as we do now is tedious. I think it’s another one of those things that shows that the AN team doesn’t actually play the game as much as they should – but because if they were playing and they were taking turns as the “siege tickers” I think they’d agree that’s it pretty darn monotonous.

Hickeroar.9734:

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I keep seeing people complain about zergs…but no one has a good reason why they’re bad.

I love running in small groups and I love running in zergs. They’re both valid, and very fun, ways to play the game.

If zergs were ever affected to the point of being non-viable, people would leave the WvW game in droves. Why? Because zergs are fun and important to the process.

I agree with this, zergs are just as important if not more so than small group combat.

Also both are fun to me! Now if they could just fix skill lag.

Aneu.1748:

Hickeroar.9734:

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I keep seeing people complain about zergs…but no one has a good reason why they’re bad.

I love running in small groups and I love running in zergs. They’re both valid, and very fun, ways to play the game.

If zergs were ever affected to the point of being non-viable, people would leave the WvW game in droves. Why? Because zergs are fun and important to the process.

Lag.

Is that really the only objection? They already said they’re working on addressing this.

It’s all server lag anyway. Too much going on for the servers to keep up with.

Don’t remove siege. Remove points.

You should PvP to PvP, not to see a number rise for a week until it resets to 0 again.

The engineers should figure out how to make a tank…

Hickeroar.9734:

Aneu.1748:

Hickeroar.9734:

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I keep seeing people complain about zergs…but no one has a good reason why they’re bad.

I love running in small groups and I love running in zergs. They’re both valid, and very fun, ways to play the game.

If zergs were ever affected to the point of being non-viable, people would leave the WvW game in droves. Why? Because zergs are fun and important to the process.

Lag.

Is that really the only objection? They already said they’re working on addressing this.

It’s all server lag anyway. Too much going on for the servers to keep up with.

That little objection is far more than enough to warrant the removal of zergs until there is a time that lag is resolved. Once lag is resolved I couldn’t give a monkeys how many people you have in a zerg, at least then it doesn’t come down to who can spam 1 the most but who has the most efficiency in killing.

Nirvana.5796:

Maladon.5760:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

The individual is not important in major scale war.

I don’t completely agree with that statement. Even in zerg vs zerg a small number of people people play a huge role in whether you win or lose. If the right people aren’t in the right place your zerg melts, if the right people do their jobs the opposing zerg melts. A 60 vs 60 engagement comes down to 5 or 6 people doing the right things at the right times.

In 60v60 you get skill lag. I seriously can’t see how 5-6 people make a difference pressing 1.

I don’t notice skill lag unless there’s 150 or so people around. We have 40-60 vs 40-60 all the time in our matchup. I don’t get skill lag unless all three zergs meet somewhere, like SM.

Hickeroar.9734:

Aneu.1748:

Hickeroar.9734:

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I keep seeing people complain about zergs…but no one has a good reason why they’re bad.

I love running in small groups and I love running in zergs. They’re both valid, and very fun, ways to play the game.

If zergs were ever affected to the point of being non-viable, people would leave the WvW game in droves. Why? Because zergs are fun and important to the process.

Lag.

Is that really the only objection? They already said they’re working on addressing this.

It’s all server lag anyway. Too much going on for the servers to keep up with.

please see my rationale above, its more to do with player contribution rather than lag(albeit lag does not help)
also let me clarify i dont consider a 20-30 man guild group a zerg (if they are organised and have a plan)
But from my brief visit to t1 i have seen a ???? numbers zerg facebash a reinforced gate down from 35%… tell me that should be a viable strategy

Handin.4032:

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I still have yet to see how zergs are breaking the game. In every large-scale PvP game I’ve played in (not many mind you), there have ALWAYS been ‘zergs’. And what people call ‘zergs’ can be totally different. Is a well coordinate guild group of 50 a zerg? if so, then you’re saying that guild groups are breaking the game, and that grouping as a large guild should be punished. Is a group of 50 coordinate pugs a zerg? If so, then you’re saying communication is breaking the game. Is a group of 50 uncoordinate people a zerg? Well…you should be able to smash them to bits since they’re not coordinating! A well-coordinated 20 man group can take on twice its numbers if their opponents are well coordinated.

Siege adds, if anything, more for small groups to do. A few people on AC’s above a gate can stop a huge group from taking a keep (this was true even BEFORE the update). “Zergs” are nothing more than large groups of people, which is what you will expect in large scale warfare. I don’t understand what people were expecting in WORLD vs WORLD…a bunch of 5-10 man squads running around?

This isn’t antagonistic, but I have yet to see a good clear explaination of this, and what people are defining as a zerg, and how that is killing the game. (Note, I prefer doing small group ninja stuff, but if I get stomped by a 40 man group, then I get stomped, and I come back)

Well, giant ZvZ literally breaks the game, in that is stops functioning properly because their servers are inadequate to handle it, and so it becomes a slideshow where everyone attempts to maybe autoattack something.

Hickeroar.9734:

Spets the MilkBandit.9031:

zergs are whats breaking the game… not the siege.

I keep seeing people complain about zergs…but no one has a good reason why they’re bad.

I love running in small groups and I love running in zergs. They’re both valid, and very fun, ways to play the game.

If zergs were ever affected to the point of being non-viable, people would leave the WvW game in droves. Why? Because zergs are fun and important to the process.

Exactly. And Anet devs have said that they envisioned huge, epic battles for WvW. That means clashing armies (zergs). There are supposed to be zergs in the mix.

Ascii.9726:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

I play on Blackgate and our guild loves a good fight, but we can’t get those fights anymore because the enemy just runs away.

Funny, i play on SoR and all i ever see is BG running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hWQX8mSZcA

As for no siege, its a no. Siege makes the WvW experience unique, however they do need to do some major re-balancing of all the siege and make there damage more dynamic vs other siege types rather then static such as arrow cart > catapult, ram, ballista.

This exactly…people rather run away from a fight now,safely back to their tower wich is filled up with arrowcarts,or back to a supp camp where they have…arrowcarts,or somewhere open field where they can place…arrowcarts.This game is getting incredibly dumb and people are Not helping by doing stuff like this.We should drop all the ac building and start fighting again,because trust me soon you wont have Anyone to use your arrowcarts on.

Have 3 or 5 golems limitted per map, and 50 people limitted in a map.
problem solved ~

The problem is not the huge amount of players, but the mindlessness of the actions you perform, when you are in a very large group. Run a long your allies and spam your #1 weapon skill, or your CC skills. That’s all you have to do, because your combined damage output makes all your other skills pointless to use. Further more, you can’t even see what the hell is happening around you. Zergs of 30-50 people clashing against each other have less of this, and these are what WvW should be focused around. Not blobs with 100+ players in them. Sadly though, after the removal of culling, blobs have become way too common.

Simply put, the game is just not build to have 200+ players fight against each other. Neither when it comes to the combat system, or lag.

The OP’s question/alternative is almost as stupid as Anet’s meta: Would you rather treb war or try a ninja with rams/golems? The answer, btw, is neither.

I’m all for AC’s countering zergs. But atm they counter everything except trebs. I would rather have a balanced siege meta that doesn’t REQUIRE treb wars or else ninjaing with rams. I would rather have ACs that don’t counter every other piece of siege except trebs AND zergs as well. If they countered either zergs OR siege weapons (but not both) that’s fine.

Traps… I have no idea. If they counter zerg balls that will be cool. If traps counter everything, that will be stupid. Pretty simple actually, it’s called balance.

Ascii.9726:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

I play on Blackgate and our guild loves a good fight, but we can’t get those fights anymore because the enemy just runs away.

Funny, i play on SoR and all i ever see is BG running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hWQX8mSZcA

As for no siege, its a no. Siege makes the WvW experience unique, however they do need to do some major re-balancing of all the siege and make there damage more dynamic vs other siege types rather then static such as arrow cart > catapult, ram, ballista.

Funny, I play on BG and all I ever see is SoR running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7xvB_GZIQU&feature=player_embedded

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

Every update for WvW seems to bring on more whining.

New to MMO’s? Go check out every online game forum, whining is what MMO forums do…

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

I would like to see Ladders that you can use to put up against walls and climb. That will keep players defending what they just capped.

Only if players on the walls can push the ladder back and watch everyone fall off.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

The individual is not important in major scale war. It is about who has the resources and their strategies and tactics on how to use those resources best.

I think you’re making a misunderstanding here.

See, when individuals are unimportant, then it’s much more difficult to use resources extremely effectively, since those resources mean very little in the first place. On the other hand, when individuals have the ability to actually be useful, they can be used to a much more resourceful and intellectually challenging extent. In our current meta, it is near impossible for a smaller army to defeat a larger army, unless the two armies are almost equal in size and the smaller army has a significant tactical advantage of some sort. However, our terrain and mechanics in WvW make such victories for smaller armies near impossible in practice. Take Eredon Terrace, for example. In recent weeks, we’ve suffered low morale, which has resulted in major fallbacks for our server. Our commanders no longer want to lead. Our army consists mostly of pugs- all of the good guys have disappeared. And the fact that this is causing us to lose continuously more and more only serves to demoralize our server even more, resulting in further losses for us. It’s a self-sustaining cycle. Now, if we lived in an environment where there was a great deal of importance in the individual- i.e., an environment where there existed large terrain imbalances in certain areas- then things might be different. We might actually be able to win a battle because we were better able to coordinate what resources we had better than our enemies could. However, that is not the case, and thus our current meta goes directly against what you want- best usage of resources.