Guild Wars 2

So there’s been a lot of hate flying around recently (or for all time?) about the thief class, their burst, and other class features that don’t help the issue. While there may be some legitimate concerns there, not everything that’s offered is on the level. The fact is that there are plenty of players who’ve worked out builds that counter burst (note: not thieves, but the burst aspect of the game). One problem I see is that in PvE, what’s generally most effective is high DPS, so people spec for it. It moves you through the game of predictable NPC enemies quicker, and you have every responsibility to capitalise on that. However we have to ask the question: where do WvW players come from? Well, PvE zones of course.

So players enter WvW with the builds they’ve been using, that they like, and that work in PvE. They even have a good margin of success in WvW (I mean, there’s so many other squishy players around). What gets overlooked is the counter build to burst (and subsequently most thieves, the best burst around in case you missed that). The truth is there needs to be a change in perspective. From what I’ve seen, players come expecting what works against mobs to work everywhere else. The expectation is that the fight should be over in a very quick time frame, or else. Reality can be a hard pill to swallow. Ultimately what’s causing people to rage against GW2 isn’t the thief with his high burst, or the player behind the thief who thinks doing what he’s doing is some sort of success in life. It’s the players false perception about his build and the game in general that’s tripping him up.

The solution? Education. I wanted to ask if there’s anyone out there who can offer their tried and tested builds, Bunker, or Balanced, that work at countering Burst. The question shouldn’t be “Why isn’t my build working against X?” But rather, “What build will work against X?”

I’ve got my own (Balanced build I’ve come to realise), but to kick off I’ll throw this link in which my buddy gave me. Anyone got any more?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/The-TANKCAT-build-Prybar-some-faces

The true problem is culling, not build.
Build makes it more bearable though.
But yeah Tank builds help take their damage That solves surviving the burst part, but not so much countering :P (Just cuz you can take their damage does not mean you can kill them)
Knights gear works miracles on heavy armors, not so sure if it applies to light or medium armors though :P

I think this factor is actually more overlooked then it should be. NPC’s and PC’s are completely different beasts and since players come into WvW off PvE, most of them haven’t put in the time of effort to make a viable WvW build to switch to out of from their PvE gears. And it’s not surprising as it can take a lot of time and gold to make a secondary set.

Dual.8953:

…most of them haven’t put in the time of effort to make a viable WvW build to switch to out of from their PvE gears. And it’s not surprising as it can take a lot of time and gold to make a secondary set.

I really believe it’s mostly the pain in the butt it is to recreate the builds as often as they are needed for the different things we do. Now, for the life of me, I really can’t understand how something was not only implemented at release, but still isn’t — as saving your builds for quick changes. I’m baffled at the lack of common sense some game developers have sometimes.

So basically TS, you’re saying the problem is noobs bringing PvE builds to WvW and then complaining on forums? Nah I think you’re wrong.

Zatria.5783:

Dual.8953:

…most of them haven’t put in the time of effort to make a viable WvW build to switch to out of from their PvE gears. And it’s not surprising as it can take a lot of time and gold to make a secondary set.

I really believe it’s mostly the pain in the butt it is to recreate the builds as often as they are needed for the different things we do. Now, for the life of me, I really can’t understand how something was not only implemented at release, but still isn’t — as saving your builds for quick changes. I’m baffled at the lack of common sense some game developers have sometimes.

It seems like a deliberate design decision too when you consider that it costs a few silver to respec traits.

Yeap i agree with Causic,

It’s not really just about their burst, it’s their stealth/culling that is causing the problem.

Fighting 1vs1 with a random thief who ambushed you?
You can retaliate and damage their life bar all the way to 20%, and suddenly they disappear only to reappear a few seconds later with 80% – full health <repeat until all your skills/healing is on cooldown and just die>

Want to stop that one thief from killing dolyak with 3 persons escorting it?
Thief comes, hit dolyak, stealth, run one circle, avoid random AOE with big circle on the ground and long cooldown once, hit dolyak <repeat until dolyak is dead> <laugh like a pro in stealth, runs the other way>

So yeah, it’s the stealth/culling issue. Its the sense of unable to kill the defeated player after you have defeated ‘it’ (multiple times) that don’t make sense to all the classes causing the outcry.

Two out of the three modes in GW2 are about fighting opposing players. So I just build my gear and traits towards fighting players. I test some builds in sPvP first, but otherwise I build for PvP/WvW only since PvE content is easy enough no matter what kind of spec you are.

Problem is that you can make troll char which hit too hard if you don’t wanna do any real fighting. Counter that other players need to stack stupid amount toughness.

Burst classes are so squishy, you really have zero trouble killing them in full out tank builds. They negate none of your damage so you still hit like a truck vs them. The more people start building tank the more likely people will cease to spec bursty simply because tank trumps burst in pvp.

This may completely change the game as we know it as people become more knowledgeable about what a PvP build actually is (hint it isn’t glass cannon).

Adaneshade.2409:

Burst classes are so squishy, you really have zero trouble killing them in full out tank builds. They negate none of your damage so you still hit like a truck vs them. The more people start building tank the more likely people will cease to spec bursty simply because tank trumps burst in pvp.

This may completely change the game as we know it as people become more knowledgeable about what a PvP build actually is (hint it isn’t glass cannon).

It’s the three B’s. Burst, Balanced, Bunker.

Burst has the raw sudden damage to take out burst and balanced with relative ease, but not bunker.

Balanced is susceptible to Burst, but has the sustained damage and raw staying power to whittle down a Bunker.

Bunker is impervious to Burst, and can hit them like a truck (thanks Adaneshade for the imagery) despite their lower damage output, but cant handle a Balanced toughness while the same Balanced whittles them down.

That’s the theory anyway. The trick is finding the builds that accomplish this, and the devs balancing the mechanics accordingly.

When I am using GC warrior. I have win ratio against Guardian 1on1 100 %, either way they need always call their buddy to cover there for just GC warrior within 10 sec. Also when I use food/oil/item those so called pure elementalist d/d bunker can’t do anymore damage, I just rid the engine with omnoberries pie that lifeleench bunker dead. Often the bunker need to call 4 of his mate to attempt kill me but often ended up with failure.

Any bunker who dies to GC warrior regularly is bad, end of story.

Stun recovery/dodge roll out of bull rush 100 blades.
Watch warrior blow his load.
Kill warrior.

^Normal attack > bullrush for those kind of players. As bunker type they don’t have omnoberries pie advantage and I am wittle their hp fast down by using #1 GS, and using shield or sword F1 to make them use stunbreak them followed by bullrush for a good ending. Not to mention I solo tower against Elona Reach with 3 opponent to boot(one of them is P/D thief build of the month).

Ross Biddle.2367:

Adaneshade.2409:

Burst classes are so squishy, you really have zero trouble killing them in full out tank builds. They negate none of your damage so you still hit like a truck vs them. The more people start building tank the more likely people will cease to spec bursty simply because tank trumps burst in pvp.

This may completely change the game as we know it as people become more knowledgeable about what a PvP build actually is (hint it isn’t glass cannon).

It’s the three B’s. Burst, Balanced, Bunker.

Burst has the raw sudden damage to take out burst and balanced with relative ease, but not bunker.

Balanced is susceptible to Burst, but has the sustained damage and raw staying power to whittle down a Bunker.

Bunker is impervious to Burst, and can hit them like a truck (thanks Adaneshade for the imagery) despite their lower damage output, but cant handle a Balanced toughness while the same Balanced whittles them down.

That’s the theory anyway. The trick is finding the builds that accomplish this, and the devs balancing the mechanics accordingly.

Yay in theory but it NEVER works. There is a reason for the old saying the best defense is a good offense and your entire post also outlines the whole problem. Stepping aside from the whole “thief” drama, in any PVP game where there is a class with “avoidance” mechanics this becomes a massive force multiplier on their whole dmg/vs tank paradigm.

Super run speed is another example that breaks PVP in the same way stealth does. If I can run much faster than anyone in the game then I decide when and where PVP occurs. I can joust the other guy and it gives me a massive force multiplier advantage. If I am the only class with snare in the game it creates the same problem because now I can kite everyone and again I control the PVP.

Let’s take another example, suppose for arguments sake one of the GW2 classes had immense endurance regen as part of their “flavour” to the point where they could dodge roll almost continuously. This would break the game in similar ways to stealth. I could go glass cannon without caring about the consequences. If you don’t believe how effective this would be go and take the Thief trait Feline Grace and watch your survival rate quadruple.

So these types of classes are freed from the consequences of the dmg vs tank decision making process and can effectively glass cannon without the downsides, or at least with severely reduced downsides. This was the case in Aion with the Ranger and Assassin, with extreme stealth abilities all they had to worry about was offense, defense didn’t matter. You are free from having to make the burst vs bunker decision whereas everyone else is forced to make it and then their decision is also made for them, they must choose bunker because burst affords them no utility against a target they can’t engage.

So then a force multiplier for your character also becomes a skill multiplier. Two equally skilled players, the one with the force multiplier will win 8 of 10 matches. A lower skilled player can use an advantageous class to clownshoe his way over other players and think he’s doing great.

Mian.1945:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Adaneshade.2409:

Burst classes are so squishy, you really have zero trouble killing them in full out tank builds. They negate none of your damage so you still hit like a truck vs them. The more people start building tank the more likely people will cease to spec bursty simply because tank trumps burst in pvp.

This may completely change the game as we know it as people become more knowledgeable about what a PvP build actually is (hint it isn’t glass cannon).

It’s the three B’s. Burst, Balanced, Bunker.

Burst has the raw sudden damage to take out burst and balanced with relative ease, but not bunker.

Balanced is susceptible to Burst, but has the sustained damage and raw staying power to whittle down a Bunker.

Bunker is impervious to Burst, and can hit them like a truck (thanks Adaneshade for the imagery) despite their lower damage output, but cant handle a Balanced toughness while the same Balanced whittles them down.

That’s the theory anyway. The trick is finding the builds that accomplish this, and the devs balancing the mechanics accordingly.

Yay in theory but it NEVER works. There is a reason for the old saying the best defense is a good offense and your entire post also outlines the whole problem. Stepping aside from the whole “thief” drama, in any PVP game where there is a class with “avoidance” mechanics this becomes a massive force multiplier on their whole dmg/vs tank paradigm.

Super run speed is another example that breaks PVP in the same way stealth does. If I can run much faster than anyone in the game then I decide when and where PVP occurs. I can joust the other guy and it gives me a massive force multiplier advantage. If I am the only class with snare in the game it creates the same problem because now I can kite everyone and again I control the PVP.

Let’s take another example, suppose for arguments sake one of the GW2 classes had immense endurance regen as part of their “flavour” to the point where they could dodge roll almost continuously. This would break the game in similar ways to stealth. I could go glass cannon without caring about the consequences. If you don’t believe how effective this would be go and take the Thief trait Feline Grace and watch your survival rate quadruple.

So these types of classes are freed from the consequences of the dmg vs tank decision making process and can effectively glass cannon without the downsides, or at least with severely reduced downsides. This was the case in Aion with the Ranger and Assassin, with extreme stealth abilities all they had to worry about was offense, defense didn’t matter. You are free from having to make the burst vs bunker decision whereas everyone else is forced to make it and then their decision is also made for them, they must choose bunker because burst affords them no utility against a target they can’t engage.

So then a force multiplier for your character also becomes a skill multiplier. Two equally skilled players, the one with the force multiplier will win 8 of 10 matches. A lower skilled player can use an advantageous class to clownshoe his way over other players and think he’s doing great.

All you’ve done is explain that a GC thief can run away. That is a loss as they had to give up the turf.
I’ll challenge any GC thief to 1v1 my tank thief, currently on Maguuma server, PM me if you want a shot……

GC thief is not running away, they just check the opponent utilize before the real battle begin. It’s a tank thief? Equip duel pistol and using #1 and blind powder to kill them easily. And if they using pistol? You got advantage of the omnoberries pie and you eHP increase more than 100 % fold anyway.

K, so care to try it? :-P

Me not in mood transfer to Maguuma server.

Adaneshade.2409:

All you’ve done is explain that a GC thief can run away. That is a loss as they had to give up the turf.
I’ll challenge any GC thief to 1v1 my tank thief, currently on Maguuma server, PM me if you want a shot……

My post is really about class relativity and force multipliers in general but apparently ymmv.

D/D Ele is another of the Burst builds with getaway abilities that, although it doesn’t have stealth, is as effective as the thief.

If the ele can’t outright kill the opponent within a certain time, they’ll shift to fire or lightning for quick bursts of speed (lightning usually being the last if they have gift of air) with Frost Aura to slow folks down.

This, in my opinion, can be more frustrating to opponents as you see the enemy getting away rather than just seeing them disappear and giving up the search. I’ve seen a D/D ele lead a small group away, which can effectively cripple a siege if another force comes in.

The only tactic for players who go after a good D/D ele is to lay a trap for him and damage him down so fast that he doesn’t have time to use any of his escape moves effectively.

Just let em run? Kill the next guy, they’re no longer a threat to you. Most fights vs GC builds are so one sided in favor of the tank it’s a laugh.

Maguuma who has been victim of PRX from Sea of Sorrow. The matchup was so different the score booted out 400k vs 100k. And considering the PRX found ER pub tough to boot when I switching from EB to borderland to check. I can tell you level that you aren’t much different either.

Sorry I can’t understand your post, lol. Wrong thread? Trying to read in in context of current conversation isn’t working.

Yea, I understand you disaster that happen when fighting SOS with you tank thief while you are on Maguuda. Np at all. :p

Balanced is best IMO. If your a warrior go hammer. Gives you respectable damage. Insane amounts of CC. Plus you get toughness. Thieves cannot one shot you if you build it right. and you have so many AOE snares you just laugh at them as they try to escape.

Choko.6821:

When I am using GC warrior. I have win ratio against Guardian 1on1 100 %, either way they need always call their buddy to cover there for just GC warrior within 10 sec. Also when I use food/oil/item those so called pure elementalist d/d bunker can’t do anymore damage, I just rid the engine with omnoberries pie that lifeleench bunker dead. Often the bunker need to call 4 of his mate to attempt kill me but often ended up with failure.

I hope you do realize that 90% of guardians in WvW are built to support their group not for 1v1 fights? If you want to fight a 1v1 build guardian I’m sure we can set something up in an empty spvp server.

Glass cannon warriors are terrible and I’ll gladly prove it too you if you want.

Choko.6821:

Maguuma who has been victim of PRX from Sea of Sorrow. The matchup was so different the score booted out 400k vs 100k. And considering the PRX found ER pub tough to boot when I switching from EB to borderland to check. I can tell you level that you aren’t much different either.

Didn’t realize a servers performance has anything to do with peoples individual skill. . .

Guardian is terribly for 1on1, rely on Judge Intervetion, or sword #2 for mobile. and on spvp you can’t use food and weapon switch thus they aren’t really pvp.

Yes server performance has to do something, when you individual skill aren’t beating PRX guild so I heard. xD

Is he throwing server total points into a conversation about 1v1? lol wow what a misguided fellow. I didn’t want to call him out on it in case he had some other meaning…..
All that points reflect is who’s server zergs harder. I do not care about scores; or what tier my server is in (tbh I get better 1v1 fights in lower tiers than I ever did in high tiers, zerging makes for weak players) objectives or any of that.
I guarantee you I wasn’t involved in any of this PRX zergfest stuff because I don’t bother myself with objectives….. I play for small group fights and 1v1.

So, everyone on a particular server is of the same skill level? I’ve seen delusional, but this guy sets a new bar….

How can play 1v1 or small group when the enemy server are doing objective you can’t. And delusion is what make I pro. You are still amateur do you? Not getting sponsered I can understand very well. Because there is many clone of you around after all.

Adaneshade.2409:

Just let em run? Kill the next guy, they’re no longer a threat to you. Most fights vs GC builds are so one sided in favor of the tank it’s a laugh.

This sums it up basically, and I’ll draw attention back to the altering of perceptions.

What is the goal? This should be thought about generally. If the goal of the inquiry is a 1v1 matchup to spike the other guy, then your complaints have some standing. However in WvW there are many more meta objectives. Routing an enemy force is a victory, even if you don’t kill them all. Sending a thief or DDele fleeing might not result in a loot bag, but the fight is effectively won. If you set out to kill them and failed, then feel free to count it as a personal loss. If, however, you were on your way to a tower objective, or were contesting for a camp, or maybe just getting some of your travelling buddies who’re prone to thieves or eles down to the real fight by interupting their activities, it’s a different story. The game mechanics don’t directly reward these victories, and maybe that should be a consideration for the devs, but they can hold rewards in themselves to the meta objectives. You read on the forums often how much thief players like to log in their thieves to troll people. It’s not said enough, but it’s equally enjoyable to troll these same thieves in game to the point that they have to WP away because you’ve shut them out of their entire game. Of course if you just built right, you can just kill them outright instead.

Choko.6821:

Guardian is terribly for 1on1, rely on Judge Intervetion, or sword #2 for mobile. and on spvp you can’t use food and weapon switch thus they aren’t really pvp.

Yes server performance has to do something, when you individual skill aren’t beating PRX guild so I heard. xD

spvp isn’t real pvp because you can’t use op food buffs . . . wow just wow. You are obviously trolling me.
You also think individual skill has anything to do with beating a guild in a group fight. . . yeap you are definitely trolling.

Ross, He is just a person looking to bully nothing more. As you can see, he attempt to promoting his ego boost by posting a denial post over construtive post.

And yes individual skill has to do with beating a guild in a group fight? Namely pub players who can 100 % synchron on other player combatting skills. And that is uber rare case. Because no one has setup such a high level bar. And you need to post something so ignorant again. But then all baddies are like that aren’t they.

There are always players to fight solo lol. Never an issue there. Now go troll elsewhere, I’m done with this foolishness.

1 hour standby waiting for person at nearby spawn for camp capture? I don’t see that happen. You gotta troll somewhere else. After all you need to complain L2p L2p L2p. That is all you conversation nothing more. Really foolishness.

Yeah, Ross. Players need to take a step back in the WvW meta and realize that forcing the enemy to give up the turf is a win. You don’t need to kill what isn’t a threat to you.

Choko if you ever get tired of sprouting nonsense on the forums my offer to 1v1 in an empty spvp server still stands. You know an actual balanced fight against a 1v1 build.
Yes I know you won’t get your omnom pie you poor thing =/ but don’t worry I won’t have any food either.

omnom pie is what it GC warrior set different until then 1v1 on spvp server is considering unbalanced. And if you think I am sprouting nonsense. You are so funny.

Yeah just ignore him, Lalnui. I’ve already put my money where my mouth is and he’s made it perfectly clear he isn’t willing to take me up on it. Some people are just all talk; easy to act tough on an internet forum :-P

Easy to act tough on internet was my ways considering I was unbeatable on FPS games. MMO players tend to kitten talkers more than usually in fact. And you can’t do math. And that make you automatic ameteur. :p

Anyway, back on track…….
I totally agree with the OP. It’s not so much a L2P issue as a L2build-for-PvP one. Most people who run these PvE oriented specs are actually quite decent with them. They are just gimping themselves in a PvP environment with their builds.

Adaneshade.2409:

Yeah just ignore him, Lalnui. I’ve already put my money where my mouth is and he’s made it perfectly clear he isn’t willing to take me up on it. Some people are just all talk; easy to act tough on an internet forum :-P

I should but I’m bored. lol

Choko.6821:

omnom pie is what it GC warrior set different until then 1v1 on spvp server is considering unbalanced. And if you think I am sprouting nonsense. You are so funny.

I don’t think you understand what balanced means but I understand where you are coming from now. You actually think your build is viable because you can pick on under 80s, people running group builds not suited for 1v1 and bad players.
You are obviously determined to keep thinking your build isn’t terrible, just try not to get too heartbroken when you actually meet a half decent player on a build that can fight 1v1.

Also I would get just as much if not more healing from food than you would if my guardian was geared up properly in wvw. Like I said spvp is balanced, you don’t get your pie but I also don’t get my food.

Choko.6821:

How can play 1v1 or small group when the enemy server are doing objective you can’t. And delusion is what make I pro. You are still amateur do you? Not getting sponsered I can understand very well. Because there is many clone of you around after all.

This to the nth power! (Kinda) Well, what I understand is that WvW is not 1v1. It’s not about you; it’s about your team.

WvW is all about keeping the enemy from achieving their objectives, not about getting as many kills as possible. Killing yourself trying to go after the lolthief or lolele who just dove out of your crowd to lure you (in a blind fury) into his is endangering your server’s objectives and fulfilling your enemies’ objectives. Chasing the enemy away is just as effective as killing him. He has to go back until he’s no longer in battle, heal, and then come back to cause problems. Time away from his team’s objectives, time to focus on your team’s objectives.

Also, not enough players in WvW party together (this includes myself), which denies you a VERY effective tool: The Target icon. This lets you do a team burst, focusing your five team members on one person. Have one person ready to pull the enemy into your group. Have someone there to immobilize him. Focus on him, but make sure someone is keeping an eye on events around you. One down, one less to obstruct your objective.

I’m on Seafarers Rest and I have no problem dealing 1on1 since raising from tier 4 to tier 1. Not to mention Seafarers Rest is known as sopthitical tactic and I am part of them.

And I meeted many super decent players on enemy side also Seafarers Rest person user Red Falcon. Although he play a warrior. But quite a reckless one of that. He charge in and goes often 100b frenzy that he haven’t seen that place is just suicide as there is 3+ arrowcarts to boot. =/

Sporadicus.1028:

Choko.6821:

How can play 1v1 or small group when the enemy server are doing objective you can’t. And delusion is what make I pro. You are still amateur do you? Not getting sponsered I can understand very well. Because there is many clone of you around after all.

This to the nth power! (Kinda) Well, what I understand is that WvW is not 1v1. It’s not about you; it’s about your team.

WvW is all about keeping the enemy from achieving their objectives, not about getting as many kills as possible. Killing yourself trying to go after the lolthief or lolele who just dove out of your crowd to lure you (in a blind fury) into his is endangering your server’s objectives and fulfilling your enemies’ objectives. Chasing the enemy away is just as effective as killing him. He has to go back until he’s no longer in battle, heal, and then come back to cause problems. Time away from his team’s objectives, time to focus on your team’s objectives.

Also, not enough players in WvW party together (this includes myself), which denies you a VERY effective tool: The Target icon. This lets you do a team burst, focusing your five team members on one person. Have one person ready to pull the enemy into your group. Have someone there to immobilize him. Focus on him, but make sure someone is keeping an eye on events around you. One down, one less to obstruct your objective.

Single target burst is not effective in WvW, if you want to get the most out of the call target icon then target someone in a clump and aoe nuke that spot with multiple people.

Clumps of enemies don’t always have to be naturally forming. There are a couple of aoe pull skills in this game and combined with well placed fears/knock backs you can clump people up fairly easy.

You do see well that one of my old post considering 2 vs 6 at camp location killed in a fashion way where pull is not a factor to burst. Since they are to smart for that simply lol tactic. It’s post that the enemy has 2 orb to boot and they are all level 80 exoctic pvps.

Choko.6821:

I’m on Seafarers Rest and I have no problem dealing 1on1 since raising from tier 4 to tier 1. Not to mention Seafarers Rest is known as sopthitical tactic and I am part of them.

And I meeted many super decent players on enemy side also Seafarers Rest person user Red Falcon. Although he play a warrior. But quite a reckless one of that. He charge in and goes often 100b frenzy that he haven’t seen that place is just suicide as there is 3+ arrowcarts to boot. =/

The fact that you think anyone using 100b and frenzy is a decent player . . .

The chance of you getting a decent 1v1 fight in WvW is pretty much zero. People run builds that work well in groups not 1v1 fights or they run their pve build and are terrible. Combined with the number of under 80s and under geared people running around you’d be lucky to find even one good 1v1 fight in a month.
Killing 99% of the WvW population in a 1v1 fight is stupid easy I can do it while drunk and explains why you can do it on a terrible build.

Red Falcon is a terribly player? Why don’t you ask on him at warrior post. Afterall he make a bunch of sample build and considering most people him decent sPvp player. I have seen his playstyle in WvWvW, he lose to opponent who I won because I am running a similar build.

And because of that he was angry at some point that he need post to point if you meet that ‘’Warrior that has failed 100b frenzy’’ don’t help him. That warrior was me. But hey I never needed for help as I have mobile to boot to strike out of the zerg ways. Latter that warrior is being used as selfish users as numerous post count aren’t they? They all promoted me over all place.

Lalnuir, there are underground fight clubs (dueling groups) popping up all over. People build out specifically to 1v1 for these. So far, I’ve dueled vs Ehmry Bay, Dragonband, Maguuma, and Yaks Bend.

If you fight in a good 1v1, invite them to your party (target + /invite) and let em know how good they are. It’s amazing the cool people you will meet.
My little ring in this match up has grown to over 10 people across the servers who do nothing but duel each other all day. Quite entertaining and you get so see some really unusual builds.