Guild Wars 2

I think we agree on point number one. However, I disagree with point number 2 until culling is fixed.

What you are proposing will not change zerging, but will probably promote zerging even more due to the culling abuse by thieves; now that there are so many in WvW. It is getting harder and harder to run small groups (Which is how my guild works best) b/c you are killed in a matter of seconds by a pack of enemies that you cannot target. The most efficient/quick way to cap points (not my preferred gaming style) quickly (until culling is fixed) is to zerg supply points, towers, and keeps. Under your proposal If I am not a thief then I zerg and counter theives abuse of culling with zerg culling. In turn your proposal rewards the zerg for killing and capturing points. That’s even better for the zerg than the current reward system. Due to culling we currently cannot tell who has good skill or for that matter has better strategy in WvW.

Bottom line:
1.Thief abuses culling = answer: counter with, abuse zerg culling
2.AoE cap = promotes zergs

ATM culling is what is broken not skill, playstyles, or rewards. After culling is fixed then we should discuss a reward system. Anything implemented before culling is fixed will just promote zerging even more.

There’s absolutely nothing preventing small man wv3 now if played correctly. But I’m guessing the author when mentioning DAoC RvR he’s particularly interested in post ToA RvR not launch RvR amirite?

Asglarek.8976:

There’s absolutely nothing preventing small man wv3 now if played correctly.

Nothing except sheer numbers having every advantage, from the new affinity culling, to the AoE cap, to linear returns on multiple rezzers, to buff saturation; all while while small groups have no inherent advantages at all.

Increasing the map size will not really change anything just make it bigger. The maps could be more dynamic say like how eternal is more nooks and passages etc. The borderlands are rather plain and flat for the most part.

Most roaming/5 man groups or whatever you want to call it hang out down south in the bl hardly ever go far up north because thats away from the spawns and away from the fights.

If its a bl where you have waypoints at the bay or hills then its no big deal getting back into the action but I don’t see many roaming type groups on their own borderlands much unless they have a waypoint at bay or hills because if they wipe then you have to come all the way back from citadel or garrison and were do most roamers hang out down south on almost all the borderlands. A larger map doesn’t fix that.

Eternal is a better designed map because the spawn points and surrounding areas aren’t identical and there are enough side points and passages to allow for random fights and also to avoid the zergs a bit easier.

I really don’t think there is a solution to say entice people to roam or move with a smaller squad. Some people like rolling with a large group of people and that wont really change.

I roam see a zerg that has the gate almost down in a keep and I go in help kill the lord and then go my seperate way. If Im solo and I see a enemy group/zerg about to take a keep we have then I send a message over map chat and go into defend mode.

You have to remember some people like large scale warfare trying to coordinate 20-30 people requires skill also. Proper siege placement followed by a good attack once you reach inner bay requires skill also.

I have seen plenty of times you have 20 people attacking the front gate when the wall is down just 1200 units away.

Attic.1562:

Asglarek.8976:

There’s absolutely nothing preventing small man wv3 now if played correctly.

Nothing except sheer numbers having every advantage, from the new affinity culling, to the AoE cap, to linear returns on multiple rezzers, to buff saturation; all while while small groups have no inherent advantages at all.

Define small man as <10 lets see you have 10 man buff saturation, multiple rezzers are limited to 3 ppl at a time iirc, potential AOE cap depends on group makeup and culling is a bug/exploit so /shrug that one.

What I see in this argument is a lack of awareness and thinking a 10 man group should be able to take on 50+ zerg in open field combat and win…as I said earlier this isn’t hollywood and you’re not a star in a b rated martial art movie.

And as for no inherent advantage heres one…stealth you can hide a 10 man squad a lot easier than a 50+ zerg use it to your advantage.

Difference between DAOC Zergs and GW2 Zergs is this..

in DAOC, Zergs weren’t the biggest fish in the pond, in GW2 they are..

In DAOC You could have the biggest zerg in the world, But if you weren’t on your toes you could be killed in seconds… and when moving your force across the map to attack keeps/towers you and your zerg had to watch for that sort of thing, If you saw another small man running around, You just didn’t go off chasing them cause that could mean you could instantly be hit from another direction by a zerg and wiped in seconds… Zergs tended to be slow as well, Cause you didn’t want to get caught off guard and you certainly didn’t want break into smaller groups and be picked off.

GW2, you basically mass up and run from keep to keep… I mean its kind of similar to Warhammer Online in that regard, but again..WAR was just like DAOC…just cause you were in a zerg didn’t mean you couldn’t be killed in seconds by a bunch of Sorcs or Bright Wizards in a bomb group.

This is an old video i was in back in the day, the quality is bad, but you can see how badly we’d destroy zergs in Warhammer….even PRX had to watch themselves..

“22222222222222222222thief222222222222222222222222222222”
xDDD
- Ya, u can fight against a zerg but at the end is ZvZvZ
- But the problem is not the zerg, is the ppl who like zerg, and dont like build.
- I dont wana play daoc.
- And yes, spvp is prety kittent … i mean borin.

Attic.1562:

Khanswrath.1032:

I guess what I was trying to add was changing the game to suit a particular section of player is overall a bad idea.

Depends. If the game was changed so as to not disenfranchise currently happy players but at the same time made currently under served players happier and more liable to stick around for the long term that would be nothing but good for the game.

Population must be maintained in order for MMOs to work and they can only live for so long on churn. Having a core, loyal playerbase is essential.

Khanswrath.1032:

I was assuming something fierce,I will grant you that, but look at ever single post in the forums about any type of change in the gameplay/design and it is filled to the brim with assumptions of how the game “should” be.

It’s a forum on the internet, whats your point?

Khanswrath.1032:

You have to agree with me that most if not all of the complaints center around the fact that WvW is casual PvP. Most if not all the changes (aside from the culling issues) asked for want skill to shine over numbers. The more Anet starts to lean on skill > numbers the less player base you will find in WvW.

I disagree with the notion that WvW is “casual PvP.” Just like most other aspects of the game it has room to contain both dedicated and occasional players.

You’re also presuming that zerg players aren’t dedicated, this is also blatantly false. You’re from DR, you must know about good old Sir “Hitting Stonemist Gates While We Lose the Rest of EB is a Good Tradeoff” Morningstar. Would you call him a casual? With the hours he pulls? I’d call him many, many, insulting things before I got down that far and he only runs with the zerg.

Skill is not the primary differencing factor between “casual” and “hardcore.”

The problem right now is the rewards of skill are few and far between in WvW. It alienates a not insignificant chunk of people. It is an imbalance that should be worked out. Imo, the health of WvW depends on it.

They can also go to far the other way of course. tPvP has this issue atm. The skilled, practiced players get everything and everyone else gets screwed. The result is empty tPvP queues, because nobody who isn’t currently skilled can become skilled enough to be anything but fodder.

Did you ever play GW1? I’m only asking because it did have a dedicated core player base. All of my current gaming friends I made were in GW1 and they all but one still play here in GW2. I ask you, who are the underserved players? Players that are use to the way other MMO’s operate and are upset this game does not follow suit? I’m fairly certain Anet knows how to maintain a player base and hope to god they don’t cave to every tear they see shed on the forums. In the same turn I applaud when they do take note of wonderful ideas the community brings them but also realize some of the large changes that are wanted aren’t an easy “fix it this week”.

I’m very well aware that this a forum on the internet. Thanks for pointing that out.

Never have I said zerg players aren’t dedicated, not sure where you pulled that one from. I considered myself dedicated as I play the same amount of time most nights and spend a fairly large amount of that time in WvW. How is WvW not casual PvP? True there are players that spend ALOT of time there but the general premises behind it’s creation was and still is for anyone to jump in kill some things and leave anytime they want to. Making WvW a dedicated effort is solely on the shoulders of the individual player. Also knocking Morningstar is pretty much uncalled for. The guy did nothing but try and help newer players understand the mechanics of the game in EB and that says a lot for a character of a guy to try and take time out to actually educate new players. Does he have an obsession with SM, yea but we all have our own quirks.

Are you referring to small man groups being alienated? What rewards are you looking for for being skilled in WvW? A title, different armor or the undying love of the entire server for being the best at ganking uplevels? I have more respect for the known small man groups on my server and the server’s I have faced than the larger zerg guilds. AD, NoQQ, Larp, Envy, Btsy these guys and gals I have seen play first hand. I know they are good and I’ll bet others do too when they run up against them.

I enjoy the game as is (Minus culling, downed state, npcs, rallying off of raccons, THIEVES, zergs, the absence of the holy trinity, and the lack of the /FLEX emote (this one hurts the most ANET). Crazy I know.

my 2 not needed cents,

Coming from several years of EVE i can just say that the only reason zergs r so popular in this game is: no real penalty for deaths.
I’m talking about zergs (so mindless lemmings) not huge groups of organized players, which r a completely different stuff and should be allowed in a WvW map.

Maybe the maps are too small and with few objectives (maybe), takes too few to a zerg to get across a map, but maybe the problem is that we shouldn’t be allowed to insta know where our enemies are hitting just by pressing “m”.

What i wouldn’t like is WvW to become the home of solo duels for ego maniacs (i.e. camping ppl out of spawn areas with their broken stealth thief) , there’s sPvP for that (and yes is not that good either), WvW should allow tactical play for small/medium/large groups.

In the end the real problem is not the game (with all its issues and limitations), is the people, humans tend to flock up ‘cause they feel safer, and to do that they prefer someone else to take the lead so they can turn off their brains and be good lemmings, xpecially if they know they’r gonna loose nothing (some silvers for repairs…pff).

Agree with others, you can outsmart a zerg ALWAYS, if you actually know what you’r goin to face, so culling IS a big issue.

I can’t call WvW casual or hardcore pvp it is just PvP.

Like above poster said anyone can come in and get kills and leave right? The objective of WvW is holding objectives raising point totals for a Week long match? Then it would be hardcore right if your suppose to be in first place for 1 week?

Its a sandbox that allows hardcore and casual pvp fans alike to play in it but it can’t be defined as casual or hardcore on its own it is just PvP period.

If I join WvW everyday of the week and do nothing but roam and kill people not even bothering to take a supply camp in passing and Johnny logs in everyday and make sures Redvale refuge is safe and secure and upgraded with supply roaming guards and isnt being attacked who is hardcore and who isn’t in that picture? Both hardcore? Or even if the roaming group does nothing but take camps compared to johnny who is hardcore and who isnt? You can’t define who’s effort is greater to the server vs server war more than the other its hard to do unless your with that person every moment of everyday. Time can’t be used to describe who is the hardcore wvwer and who isnt because I can log in afk run into wall for hours. There is no way to know who is more hardcore and who isn’t in wvw unless your with them then what metric is used to determined what level you reach hardcore status?

Silly really WvW is objectives, roaming, camping, siege placement, counter trebbing, flanking etc are all required if you want to win. Some are more important than others and solo roaming or 5 man roaming is probably the least important thing in WvW when it comes to points and PPT. It can provide a important distraction to a group headed to garrison and a few ppl might break off the zerg to fight you and your group but those that serious about taking redvale refuge or ascension bay are going to keep on trucking regardless.

Then even if there is some crazy rewards for 5 man roaming or ganking or whatever thats not going to help you when its seige time. If a group of 30 roll up on you with ballistas, a golem, arrow carts and 3 flame rams on the doors what is your 5 man group gonna do? You would be silly to not mention you need reinforcements in map chat cause you think you can hold it.

Your rolling by with your gank group and you see 15 people about to take a keep you
1. Just gonna roll into the 15 people?

2. Or will you roll into the 15 people and call for help?

3. Will you go inside of the keep and man the siege to defend the keep and call for help if you think you can’t hold them off?

Number 3 is the better choice.

Honestly these complaints about small man groups where never around months as ago when the game launched. Not really around months after that. I think its just a subsection of people that might be fed up with sPvP and want to bring some thing over to WvW. I don’t know buffs for small man groups or whatever is really so small on the issues with WvW.

Cheez-n-Rice, people! Some of you spend so much time crying about all the ways this game sucks that it makes me wonder how you find the time to even play it. It’s a big game. It wasn’t made just for you. Deal with it.

Johje Holan.4607:

Problem with making the maps bigger is that I know people who think the maps are big enough or too big. They don’t like having to run far.

So how about this. Make one/some of the maps bigger and more spread out. That way you could choose which size map you want to play on.

I would even say go a step farther and add a 5th map similar to DAoC’s “Aggramon” no objectives on the map. The only thing there is PvP in true, roaming, open field fashion.

Folks zerg because they can’t do small groups.

1. They don’t PVP well to begin with
2. They aren’t geared (full exotics and legendaries)
3. They want to run with their Guild… which is bigger than a handful.

You’d have a better chance of convincing Devs of creating a Wv3 size sPVP map and let matches run for 6-12 hours at a time than you will turning Wv3 into something else.

You are asking for a game that cannot happen again. Those kind of players don’t exist anymore. No one is going to stand for a small group AOEing everyone to death ever again.

Instead, ask for a place where 5-man grps can do battle with enemies in ways that affect WvW. PS1 had caverns, WvW could also have caverns. 15 max per side, win the cavern and you provide bonuses to your topside brethren for, say, 30 minutes.

3 caverns that can be locked for 30 minutes at a time. Each providing some bonus like 5% power boost… whatever. Something useful but not OP. And a place to fight enemy groups on a smaller scale. If you want smaller than that you sPvP.

Remove the swords and don’t flag towers/keeps/camps when they are attacked. This sort of stuff should be left up to us to report. If you want to keep your keep, keep your eyes on your keep. They should remove the contested way points feature from WvW as well. If it’s unfair for your enemy to be able to pop in to protect. then prevent them from getting one.

& make way points destroy-able.

Peace

The time period that I was talking about in DAoC RvR is when SC came out and towards the beginning of ToA before ML’s really took over.

EDIT: but this is about making Guild Wars 2 better. I just think some of the fundamental aspects that DAoC used in RvR would translate extremely well into guild wars 2.

Many of which would, I think, improve the game in the eyes of everyone, including people who enjoy large Zerg fights. They will simply have to pay more attention to the small man groups that know what they are doing.

Dhar.6392:

Folks zerg because they can’t do small groups.

1. They don’t PVP well to begin with
2. They aren’t geared (full exotics and legendaries)
3. They want to run with their Guild… which is bigger than a handful.

You’d have a better chance of convincing Devs of creating a Wv3 size sPVP map and let matches run for 6-12 hours at a time than you will turning Wv3 into something else.

Iron is max level, max geared and running with the guild, hardcore WvW only guild, directing the zerg on Deso BL of choice for the week with numbers in the 20-60tis, and the use of good skill and great commanders.

I think bigger maps plus no crosses plus no culling would = better, its ok as it is now i guess, but i think it would be better..

Johje Holan.4607:

Problem with making the maps bigger is that I know people who think the maps are big enough or too big. They don’t like having to run far.

So how about this. Make one/some of the maps bigger and more spread out. That way you could choose which size map you want to play on.

ANet can always add more waypoints to the map to cut down on the running in the bigger map.

The elimination of swords on the map would make smaller scouts and scouting parties more important as well as players manning the towers and keeps.

If the maps can’t be much bigger.. start by maybe reducing the amount of water in the borderlands and also remove the centaur/skrit areas? Also, make a portal to a new zone for the jumping puzzle maybe.

People ignore the water coz it’s boring and the Quaggan events suck. imagine if there was a big battlefield in the middle and a little outpost in the middle with a portal that leads to the northen part of the map (old orb location). So it’s a pretty nice shortcut if you own the portal! I bet it would become a hotspot for smaller teams to fight for. But again, add more land in that area. The water is a huge mistake.

Every player in WvWvW has an aura that stacks with others :

+x toughness
-1% mouvement speed.

So when you run a zerg you siege them keep, but you are extremely inefficient at roaming around the map.

Big problem right now is that if you wanna run around capping camps and killing dolyaks, it’s more efficient with à zerg than with a small group.

Otherwise would really appreciate titles and à commander rework.

The idea of an rp system tied to how many people are needed to kill someone would be better than this.

That and nerf the health of people in downed state, no rally off pve mobs, and I’d say you’re making some good improvements. Also, raise the AE cap to 10-15 people.

Honestly progression and larger maps would do wonders for this game. They’re adding progression next patch(feb) supposedly so it could definitely be going in the right direction. A map revamp will take time, much in the same way it took time in daoc to come out with new frontiers (some hated it, I thought it was much better).

It’s a battle of ideology…. smaller maps allow you to get into action faster and therefor be in combat more often so it can be perceived as more fun. At the same time it allows very large groups to be at any spot in the map in minutes. Larger maps CAN (not always due to waypoints) force you to travel longer distances making it difficult to have a large zerg everywhere they need to be. I’d rather have choices for people, rather than them being able to go anywhere with little consequence for their actions.

I just don’t understand why so many people who do enjoy large scale fights, don’t want to have a bit more challenge from small tactical “strike” teams.

Sure, it’s possible to do a lot with coordination right now, especially when you have 10-15 or 2 small mans in vent together, but it takes a tremendous amount of gimick and effort with NO increase in reward for overcoming insane odds.

If I’m with 40 people and we steam roll two roamers I get the same reward as if I had done a 2 v 1 while defending a capture point. That’s another problem I have currently.

GW2 is a game with a specific “core principle”: everyone has to feel included, equal. No griefing, no exclusion no “L2P n00b”. No required builds, no “item/skill check before we go in”. That’s how it is in PvE – that’s how it is in WvW.

That’s why WvW is NOT (and I keep repeating in) intended for competitive PvP players or guilds. WvW is intended for the casual PvXer that goes into the borderlands out of boredom and wants to join a fight. These PvXers are their main target public – you are calling them “mindless idiots”. Tough luck.

The current form of WvW is not made for you. Every move they made in WvW was clearly intended to make it funnier and easier for the “mindless idiots” you are bashing. They might add some form of “competitive large scale PvP” later in the year but meanwhile you’ll have to cope with it.

earendil.1290:

GW2 is a game with a specific “core principle”: everyone has to feel included, equal. No griefing, no exclusion no “L2P n00b”. No required builds, no “item/skill check before we go in”. That’s how it is in PvE – that’s how it is in WvW.

That’s why WvW is NOT (and I keep repeating in) intended for competitive PvP players or guilds. WvW is intended for the casual PvXer that goes into the borderlands out of boredom and wants to join a fight. These PvXers are their main target public – you are calling them “mindless idiots”. Tough luck.

The current form of WvW is not made for you. Every move they made in WvW was clearly intended to make it funnier and easier for the “mindless idiots” you are bashing. They might add some form of “competitive large scale PvP” later in the year but meanwhile you’ll have to cope with it.

So they completely and entirely, in every way shape and form, changed their entire mantra from Guild Wars 1, in that skill trumps everything. Without an organized group of skilled people in GW1, and a large amount of skill on your part, you were fodder.

Gotcha.

EDIT: Large numbers should have the advantage of just that, large numbers. Not these kitten mechanics that just build on themselves to give an arm less blind guy the ability to compete.

Aeneasx.1589:

So they completely and entirely, in every way shape and form, changed their entire mantra from Guild Wars 1, in that skill trumps everything. Without an organized group of skilled people in GW1, and a large amount of skill on your part, you were fodder.

Gotcha.

EDIT: Large numbers should have the advantage of just that, large numbers. Not these kitten mechanics that just build on themselves to give an arm less blind guy the ability to compete.

Maybe you were sarcastic (dunno my sarcasm detector is broken) but you are actually 100% right. This WvW is completely different than what GvG was. Just like the PvE part is completely different than what it used to be in GW1. It’s all based on “inclusiveness” – everyone is allowed to experience every part of the game and feel at the same level as the others. It is their new mantra indeed.

They do want that “arm less blind guy”, the level 10 PvEr who just joined the game a week ago, to go in WvW and be capable of killing the l80 hardcore PvPer (using the numbers or siege). Tell me it’s not like this.

Maybe they will introduce something similar to the GvG later, under the sPvP model. Hopefully.

earendil.1290:

Aeneasx.1589:

So they completely and entirely, in every way shape and form, changed their entire mantra from Guild Wars 1, in that skill trumps everything. Without an organized group of skilled people in GW1, and a large amount of skill on your part, you were fodder.

Gotcha.

EDIT: Large numbers should have the advantage of just that, large numbers. Not these kitten mechanics that just build on themselves to give an arm less blind guy the ability to compete.

Maybe you were sarcastic (dunno my sarcasm detector is broken) but you are actually 100% right. This WvW is completely different than what GvG was. Just like the PvE part is completely different than what it used to be in GW1. It’s all based on “inclusiveness” – everyone is allowed to experience every part of the game and feel at the same level as the others. It is their new mantra indeed.

They do want that “arm less blind guy”, the level 10 PvEr who just joined the game a week ago, to go in WvW and be capable of killing the l80 hardcore PvPer (using the numbers or siege). Tell me it’s not like this.

Maybe they will introduce something similar to the GvG later, under the sPvP model. Hopefully.

It really sucks then that they are ignoring their some of their longest running players then. PvErs will buy their expansions to see content. Who cares about them in PvP.

I think drastic changes to down state / rally system may be enough in itself enhance skillful play. That has to be the number 1 crutch of zergs atm.

And when people copy DAoC why do they keep copying the wrong parts…

I heard that GvG was very popular and casual friendly in gw1.

earendil.1290:

GW2 is a game with a specific “core principle”: everyone has to feel included, equal. No griefing, no exclusion no “L2P n00b”. No required builds, no “item/skill check before we go in”. That’s how it is in PvE – that’s how it is in WvW.

That’s why WvW is NOT (and I keep repeating in) intended for competitive PvP players or guilds. WvW is intended for the casual PvXer that goes into the borderlands out of boredom and wants to join a fight. These PvXers are their main target public – you are calling them “mindless idiots”. Tough luck.

The current form of WvW is not made for you. Every move they made in WvW was clearly intended to make it funnier and easier for the “mindless idiots” you are bashing. They might add some form of “competitive large scale PvP” later in the year but meanwhile you’ll have to cope with it.

That might be their intent, but it is not the result.

The game might be made for dumb zergs, but it has been taken over by smart, guild zergs.

Surely it can’t be any fun for the average player to portal bombed, gray-barred and feedbacked to death before they can get a skill off?

1. Culling is bad
2. I did Daoc pvp solo and 8 man as minstell per and post toa, and new frontiers.
And it where good , but when i where rr8 and onnward i could owercharm mobs 15 lvls and buffe the so munch tahat the 2 shot any thing while i twisted 110 speed, daoc where good but it had big flaws too, the best thing about daoc wvw where new frontiers and it where amas
Sorry about not good writen post , mobile phone

Aeneasx.1589:

earendil.1290:

Aeneasx.1589:

So they completely and entirely, in every way shape and form, changed their entire mantra from Guild Wars 1, in that skill trumps everything. Without an organized group of skilled people in GW1, and a large amount of skill on your part, you were fodder.

Gotcha.

EDIT: Large numbers should have the advantage of just that, large numbers. Not these kitten mechanics that just build on themselves to give an arm less blind guy the ability to compete.

Maybe you were sarcastic (dunno my sarcasm detector is broken) but you are actually 100% right. This WvW is completely different than what GvG was. Just like the PvE part is completely different than what it used to be in GW1. It’s all based on “inclusiveness” – everyone is allowed to experience every part of the game and feel at the same level as the others. It is their new mantra indeed.

They do want that “arm less blind guy”, the level 10 PvEr who just joined the game a week ago, to go in WvW and be capable of killing the l80 hardcore PvPer (using the numbers or siege). Tell me it’s not like this.

Maybe they will introduce something similar to the GvG later, under the sPvP model. Hopefully.

It really sucks then that they are ignoring their some of their longest running players then. PvErs will buy their expansions to see content. Who cares about them in PvP.

PvPers will buy the expansion if they are ok with the current state of the game or like the game in general.

Statements like who cares about them in PvP is why if you made a game it wouldn’t last long.

Guild wars 2 is designed inclusive like the other poster said. If you take a step back for a second and look at the game as a whole what is trying to accomplish is a environment were everyone can participate in everything that is good from a business standpoint.

That is why wvw has skill points and is apart of map completion etc. When john the PvE is going for his map competition or maybe he is just a completion type person he ventures into wvw. His end game goal is a legendary he has done everything else in pve like say he is leve 50 fractals or whatever. He goes into wvw to finish his legendary does a few fights meets a few people and discovers crap. This is alot of fun his interest is renewed and now he goes through a long process of discovering the things about WvW that he didnt know about. Trying new builds etc all the stuff we are doing but he is 6 months late but if his interest is occupied for 6 months then that is good for business.

They aren’t ignoring hardcore pvpers who wvw you just have to give time. The core of what pvpers want is there fighting other people. Progression is coming its just not instant. You only have to wait at most 3 weeks or whenever this new patch hits in February. If you stop playing then thats cool its no monthly fee come back see if its up to your standards if not then play something else or see what they have planned after this.

The february update is suppose to be the biggest update to Guild Wars 2 to date so no one has any idea exactly what all it will contain. We know wvw progression is coming in this patch so just wait and see.

If progression or incentive for wvw is what your looking for and they have that on the table in 3 weeks then that would mean its heading in the right direction no?

Xsorus.2507:

Difference between DAOC Zergs and GW2 Zergs is this..

in DAOC, Zergs weren’t the biggest fish in the pond, in GW2 they are..

In DAOC You could have the biggest zerg in the world, But if you weren’t on your toes you could be killed in seconds… and when moving your force across the map to attack keeps/towers you and your zerg had to watch for that sort of thing, If you saw another small man running around, You just didn’t go off chasing them cause that could mean you could instantly be hit from another direction by a zerg and wiped in seconds… Zergs tended to be slow as well, Cause you didn’t want to get caught off guard and you certainly didn’t want break into smaller groups and be picked off.

GW2, you basically mass up and run from keep to keep… I mean its kind of similar to Warhammer Online in that regard, but again..WAR was just like DAOC…just cause you were in a zerg didn’t mean you couldn’t be killed in seconds by a bunch of Sorcs or Bright Wizards in a bomb group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNi5E1eo7lg

This is an old video i was in back in the day, the quality is bad, but you can see how badly we’d destroy zergs in Warhammer….even PRX had to watch themselves..

Excatly.

I guess we will see what happens in the Feb update, but for now I think we can all agree that we want this game to succeed.

It just seems like the game is so close to perfection in the eyes of many whom agree on the same basic gameplay changes. I want to be playing Guild Wars 2 for a long time, as I’m sure most of you do.

Aeneasx.1589:

I just don’t understand why so many people who do enjoy large scale fights, don’t want to have a bit more challenge from small tactical “strike” teams.

Because “a bit more challenge” always sounds like it’s going to be “be harassed and frustrated by regular wipes.” It’s not like we don’t have enough challenges dealing with other large scale forces and the other siege related things, that we’re craving a new challenge. I’m probably paranoid, but giving folks who focus on PK rather than objectives (which seem to mostly be the proponents of these changes) more influence concerns me. I worry that it will push the game away from siege and more towards open field fighting. I’ve done open field fighting and it’s just not something I enjoy as much as what WvWvW currently is. You say you only want a fighting chance. I believe that’s the case. My only problem is that I don’t think you’ll believe you have a fighting chances until you’re wrecking 50% of the 40 man zergs out there with your 5-man team. Maybe not. I’m curious what odds would make you happy.

I wouldn’t care if my odds were 0 percent, as long as stupid game mechanics like Zerg ressing downed players (downed in general), AOE caps (that cap at 1 small man group mind you), downed players getting wrecked and tele or mist forming back to their Zerg, 50 people culling on my face when those 50 knew they were only fighting five, getting the same reward for my five man smashing 20 people, as if we were another Zerg ball… should I continue this run on sentence?

I don’t like losing to bad design decisions, I like losing to skilled opponents.

Aeneasx.1589:

I wouldn’t care if my odds were 0 percent, as long as stupid game mechanics like Zerg ressing downed players (downed in general), AOE caps (that cap at 1 small man group mind you), downed players getting wrecked and tele or mist forming back to their Zerg, 50 people culling on my face when those 50 knew they were only fighting five, getting the same reward for my five man smashing 20 people, as if we were another Zerg ball… should I continue this run on sentence?

I don’t like losing to bad design decisions, I like losing to skilled opponents.

Yah…. That’s my point. You will complain about bad design decisions until such point as you are only losing to people you consider skilled. At which point you’ll be running around wrecking folks like me. So…. Still not interested in what you seem to want.

Aeneasx.1589:

I wouldn’t care if my odds were 0 percent, as long as stupid game mechanics like Zerg ressing downed players (downed in general), AOE caps (that cap at 1 small man group mind you), downed players getting wrecked and tele or mist forming back to their Zerg, 50 people culling on my face when those 50 knew they were only fighting five, getting the same reward for my five man smashing 20 people, as if we were another Zerg ball… should I continue this run on sentence?

I don’t like losing to bad design decisions, I like losing to skilled opponents.

Dude we run a nightly 5 man on NSP. The 10 in our guild have exactly the same mentality. I read this whole thread and all the points you make we agree with. Don’t get discouraged, if you read many threads on the forums it has been my experience that there is a solid number of Daoc’ers who are still here waiting for change. There is always going to be “casual gamers”. But skilled coordinated competent and in vent guild small mans shouldn’t lose because “casual gamers” spam 1 and 2 back peddle.

I don’t disagree that the game has been made for “everyone”. Here is the thing, if you are going to come into WvW and participate in a player v player environment, then your skill is going to naturally be put to the test. On the same hand as “zergers” want casual player vs door….. And to get their experience, if a 5 man of experienced players from the past 10-15 yrs of gaming coordinates a well designed hit and run… Spamming 1 and 2 shouldn’t be able to drop any of the 5 if played right.

Zergers don’t want to lose to better players, that is why they zerg. Welcome to player vs player…. That is skill of one player vs the skill of another player. Please stop expecting game makers (and who have done this for last 5 years of mmo pvp design) to make the game easy to beat people who have learned to do it better than you with more years and hours and hours of experience.

Jscull.2514:

Please stop expecting game makers (and who have done this for last 5 years of mmo pvp design) to make the game easy to beat people who have learned to do it better than you with more years and hours and hours of experience.

Please stop expecting your years and hours of experience in other games to be applicable to this one and complaining when your “skill” doesn’t work as you think it should. Please stop calling it bad design when the game as it is designed doesn’t give you what want.

If this game is going to be only “designed” for your “casual” players… The population will decrease by at least a third. As business people, bad model. You cry to make it Playable for “everyone”? Skilled open players are apart of that everyone population. If you want to play a failed pvp game… Continue on this path. At least a third will leave. And you will be another victim of a dumped game.

Jscull.2514:

If this game is going to be only “designed” for your “casual” players… The population will decrease by at least a third. As business people, bad model. You cry to make it Playable for “everyone”? Skilled open players are apart of that everyone population. If you want to play a failed pvp game… Continue on this path. At least a third will leave. And you will be another victim of a dumped game.

Interesting statistics… Possibly a good estimate. Although, in PvP areas similar to WvWvW, I would estimate that at a about %80 or greater… Because the other folks don’t even bother going to those areas, most of the time, whether they are possibly safe in a zerg or not. Mostly because they don’t want to deal with the ridiculous chest thumping of folks who like to beat on others they know are less skilled.

Honestly I don’t know a solution. I’m just tired of skilled open players whining that they can’t wreck zergs. Complain that you’re getting wrecked by zergs, fine. Complain that you can’t find even fights, fine. But, I got no sympathy for folks who seem to really feel that they are missing out if they can’t prove their skill against lesser opponents, no matter how many numbers.

Jscull.2514:

If this game is going to be only “designed” for your “casual” players… The population will decrease by at least a third. As business people, bad model.

And… if you design only for the self-described “hardcore” players, your game population will decrease by at least two-thirds. Worse business model.

Manbear.3408:

Jscull.2514:

If this game is going to be only “designed” for your “casual” players… The population will decrease by at least a third. As business people, bad model.

And… if you design only for the self-described “hardcore” players, your game population will decrease by at least two-thirds. Worse business model.

It all comes back to the 4 types of MMO players: Socializer, Achiever, Explorer, and Killer (from Dr. Richard Bartle).

To have a successful game, you need a balance of all of them. Too much Socializing and the Achievers leave. Too many Killers, the Socializers leave. Not sure why the Killers would leave, perhaps not enough of the other 3 to gank?

At the moment WvW caters to the gameplay of Socializers (zerging and mass warfare) and Killers (can always find someone to gank). It is failing to satisfy Achievers (no rank system, or robust achievement) and Explorers (maps are too small, tactics static and only zerg-oriented).

February’s patch should hopefully satisfy Achievers, but for Explorers the outlook is not good. The maps are too small to “get away from the crowd” or to really find new nooks and crannies. And I can’t see how this can be changed soon. It is this group that might go to The Elder Scrolls Online, with its huge WvW area, when it comes out.

saiyr.3071:

Except in T3 where larger numbers means a 12 hour west keep siege. Hurr.

Hurr durr

Manbear.3408:

Jscull.2514:

If this game is going to be only “designed” for your “casual” players… The population will decrease by at least a third. As business people, bad model.

And… if you design only for the self-described “hardcore” players, your game population will decrease by at least two-thirds. Worse business model.

I wasn’t trying to say losing two thirds is better or that the 1/3 of pvpers are the only players Anet should be worried about losing. They should be worried about losing ANY players is the point. If someone cut out a third of my income…. I would be furious.

Check out the big brain on Thrumdi! Thanks for the Bartle reference—I’m not familiar with his work, but it sounds interesting. I’m going to pick up a copy of his “Designing Virtual Worlds” on Amazon. It’ll give me something to read while I’m trebbing.

Manbear.3408:

Check out the big brain on Thrumdi! Thanks for the Bartle reference—I’m not familiar with his work, but it sounds interesting. I’m going to pick up a copy of his “Designing Virtual Worlds” on Amazon. It’ll give me something to read while I’m trebbing.

All we need now, to read while trebbing is that “auto-repeat my last shot at the duration I last specified” button.

There is also no “recognition” system such as global kill spam or global “this guild took and claimed this keep” spam.

this is the dumbest argument ever. “ANET HOW COME MORE NUMBERS = BETTER. OMG NERF SOMETHING”

uhhh…. what? of course larger #’s is better. I cant believe this still goes on to this day. Its a silly thing to complain about, this is WORLD Vs WORLD. not Tom and Jane VS bobby and his 2 friends