Guild Wars 2

A: What would you prefer out of these two options?

1. Close matches where the result of a confrontation depends on the skill of each side at the moment of the confrontation; or
2. Whitewashes where one server increasingly dominates having secured an early advantage that perpetuates with time.

B: Name a team sport that gives an actual (not merely psychological) increasing advantage to the initially more skilled team, such as a points increase per goal scored, as opposed to tallying up the number of points scored at the end of the match having given the teams an equal opportunity at all stages of the game?

In relation to B, I tried hard to come up with an analogy to WvW in the sporting world. I chose the area of team sport because it relates to tried and tested ENJOYABLE team activities that involve decent competition. You know, football, rugby, basketball, etc.

I couldn’t think of a real analogy for two main reasons: firstly, WvW involves three teams, which can be explained by the most popular team sports having evolved with two teams being the usual set up. Secondly, I really couldn’t think of an example of a team sport that grants increasing “power” to the already winning team. We are talking here about a double-winning force: The score line, PLUS the increase in power. In most team sports, the score line is all that exists. An increase in power FOR EITHER TEAM only occurs when one side commits a foul and a player is sent off, either for the rest of the match (red card in football for example) or for a few minutes, like in ice hockey.

The DECREASE in power of a team that has committed a foul is justified because that team (at least a member of it) failed to comply with the rules of the game. So far as I am aware (and I would appreciate any contributions to the contrary) there are no team sports that grant INCREASED power to a team when it accomplishes a difficult task (i.e. obtain the orbs of power in WvW). With the WvW increasing stat system on top of it all, it is plain to see that WvW is nothing like real team sport.

So why is WvW nothing like real team sports? Wouldn’t it be better to have a mechanism that has evolved through the centuries of human civilisation as being the way in which sport is played? Even the losing team can have a final chance to score, maybe many times in the last few minutes, and a miraculous victory can be celebrated. But WvW at present has an EXPONENTIAL ENTRENCHMENT MECHANISM that kills proper sporting competition. It is not enjoyable for people to engage in such activities, as time has shown with real life. And let’s not say “but this is not real life…” because to do so would be missing the point. You are using your brain to engage in this activity, and let’s hope it is human.

Ruith Seimh

Ruith.5861:

So why is WvW nothing like real team sports?

Because that was never the intent? For your team sport analogy, look to sPvP as that is exactly why it exists. There is a reason why GW2 offers both. WvWvW is a 3 server free for all. It was never meant to be about ‘fair’ fights, it is all about mass (virtual) combat where strategy is more important than tactics. The problem you (and many others on this forum) seem to be having is one of expectations. You expect WvWvW to simply be a larger “battleground” type of game when in fact it’s roots are based more in DAoC’s style of RvR (with concessions made to things like time limits on matchups).

Honestly, I find the differences between WvWvW and RvR to be the largest problem. The limited duration of the matches, the scoring system, the population limits (and corresponding queues), and the very watered down bonuses all create a much less dynamic (and enjoyable) experience.

Phaedryn.3698:

Ruith.5861:

So why is WvW nothing like real team sports?

Because that was never the intent? For your team sport analogy, look to sPvP as that is exactly why it exists. There is a reason why GW2 offers both. WvWvW is a 3 server free for all. It was never meant to be about ‘fair’ fights, it is all about mass (virtual) combat where strategy is more important than tactics. The problem you (and many others on this forum) seem to be having is one of expectations. You expect WvWvW to simply be a larger “battleground” type of game when in fact it’s roots are based more in DAoC’s style of RvR (with concessions made to things like time limits on matchups).

Honestly, I find the differences between WvWvW and RvR to be the largest problem. The limited duration of the matches, the scoring system, the population limits (and corresponding queues), and the very watered down bonuses all create a much less dynamic (and enjoyable) experience.

There are two types of gamers in this forum it seems, ones like you and me, and ones like the OP. A lot of these gamers have never played DAoC, or even Aion or Warhammer. They don’t seem to get that WvW is not like a sport, it is like war. Nothing is fair and balanced in war. For fair and balanced you will just have to watch Fox News.

WVW isn’t PVP, simple.
It’s a way to earn fast xp and karma and nothing more.

Bloodtau.4672:

WVW isn’t PVP, simple.
It’s a way to earn fast xp and karma and nothing more.

You seem to have an odd definition of PvP. That, or you are doing WvWvW wrong.

Phaedryn.3698:

The problem you (and many others on this forum) seem to be having is one of expectations.

You are correct in saying that the problem is one of expectations. Most of us expect an enjoyable experience that is competitive. Most of the great team activities on this planet are based on good competition. The ones that are not have been lost by the wayside, the rejects in the evolution of games.

Competition is what this post is about. It’s not about what WvW was “intended” to be. It is clear that it was intended to be imbalanced. I am in complete agreement. But it just isn’t good competition. That’s my point. It is a point that I read about in game, on here, and elsewhere on the internet about this format that is increasingly irritating people.

You cannot ignore the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of players who are unhappy at what they had expected to be an enjoyable competition when they first bought the game to turn out to be just another server dash that results in bizarre, other-worldly matchups that have no reflection whatsoever on real human interactions that can trigger enjoyable experiences in customers.

From a business point of view, it is illogical to have one server happy and the other two unhappy if you also intend there to be an equal distribution of players across the three servers under consideration. Therefore, the intentions of the creators of WvW must have been for the vast majority of people who want to engage in WvW to move to the winning team server by purchasing tokens. The longer the matches, the more entrenched the winning team gets, the more people on the losing teams decide to hop servers for the while. Maybe whole guilds will move. Just you wait and see, it’s very clever in design, and it will make money.

If you still think it’s a decent competitive activity, then you are a mug.

WvW you feel like you apart of something, your fighting for your server with teh goal of taking what the enemy owns. with action that will have the effect in some cases lasting for weeks

Spvp a match that last 10 minutes and after its over nothing you did matters or accomplished anything.

yah some ppl go out just to get easy exp and karma, but some people like me go out to be on the battle field and fight enemy players and try to get our server better bonuses

Boulderbolg.3460:

…WvW is not like a sport, it is like war. Nothing is fair and balanced in war.

And real wars are not fun. People rarely pay to join a real war. They would rather be playing a decent football match with their mates.

Please don’t compare anything in this game to real war. If you are unfortunate enough to have any real world experience of real wars you would understand that sitting in front of a computer clicking buttons is as far removed from real war as it comes.

Next time you are talking to someone who has just returned from a real warzone, ask them how similar WvW is to it, because you think “it is like it”.

First week of one week match ups relax most people didnt realize it was so. Each person losing in the 2nd 3rd and 4th bracket has learned somthing this week and will be more diligent next week.

Ruith.5861:

Phaedryn.3698:

The problem you (and many others on this forum) seem to be having is one of expectations.

You are correct in saying that the problem is one of expectations. Most of us expect an enjoyable experience that is competitive. Most of the great team activities on this planet are based on good competition. The ones that are not have been lost by the wayside, the rejects in the evolution of games.

Competition is what this post is about. It’s not about what WvW was “intended” to be. It is clear that it was intended to be imbalanced. I am in complete agreement. But it just isn’t good competition. That’s my point. It is a point that I read about in game, on here, and elsewhere on the internet about this format that is increasingly irritating people.

You cannot ignore the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of players who are unhappy at what they had expected to be an enjoyable competition when they first bought the game to turn out to be just another server dash that results in bizarre, other-worldly matchups that have no reflection whatsoever on real human interactions that can trigger enjoyable experiences in customers.

From a business point of view, it is illogical to have one server happy and the other two unhappy if you also intend there to be an equal distribution of players across the three servers under consideration. Therefore, the intentions of the creators of WvW must have been for the vast majority of people who want to engage in WvW to move to the winning team server by purchasing tokens. The longer the matches, the more entrenched the winning team gets, the more people on the losing teams decide to hop servers for the while. Maybe whole guilds will move. Just you wait and see, it’s very clever in design, and it will make money.

If you still think it’s a decent competitive activity, then you are a mug.

As I said above, you might be happier sticking to a style of game play that meets your expectations rather than insisting one that was not designed for that be changed to placate your. sPvP is there for this very reason.

Ruith.5861:

Phaedryn.3698:

The problem you (and many others on this forum) seem to be having is one of expectations.

You are correct in saying that the problem is one of expectations. Most of us expect an enjoyable experience that is competitive. Most of the great team activities on this planet are based on good competition. The ones that are not have been lost by the wayside, the rejects in the evolution of games.

Competition is what this post is about. It’s not about what WvW was “intended” to be. It is clear that it was intended to be imbalanced. I am in complete agreement. But it just isn’t good competition. That’s my point. It is a point that I read about in game, on here, and elsewhere on the internet about this format that is increasingly irritating people.

You cannot ignore the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of players who are unhappy at what they had expected to be an enjoyable competition when they first bought the game to turn out to be just another server dash that results in bizarre, other-worldly matchups that have no reflection whatsoever on real human interactions that can trigger enjoyable experiences in customers.

From a business point of view, it is illogical to have one server happy and the other two unhappy if you also intend there to be an equal distribution of players across the three servers under consideration. Therefore, the intentions of the creators of WvW must have been for the vast majority of people who want to engage in WvW to move to the winning team server by purchasing tokens. The longer the matches, the more entrenched the winning team gets, the more people on the losing teams decide to hop servers for the while. Maybe whole guilds will move. Just you wait and see, it’s very clever in design, and it will make money.

If you still think it’s a decent competitive activity, then you are a mug.

You argument fails because it’s obvious you see the score system as the only reward for playing 3W.

3W is not about the score, it’s not about who gets the more keeps, it’s about large-scale fights between organized huge teams for the control of a map. The fighting, the strategy, the defense and attacks ARE where the fun is, only the fact to have part in such a thing is a reward by itself.

Look at board games, like, for the most famous, Risk. When you play Risk, you have some losers and a winner. Well, despite that, everyone around the table will enjoy the game, will take pleasure by making long-term strategies, hiding his intentions etc. The game itself is enjoyable, not the reward at the end. It’s the same for 3W.

WvW isn’t supposed to be fair. If you want fair there is sPvP.
WvW is supposed to be 24/7 warfare between the servers.

As far as I know, the score bonuses are only for PvE stuff. The only way that a server can get an advantage is through the orbs and it’s nice to have a buff to work for.

Gigachip.9473:

WvW isn’t supposed to be fair. If you want fair there is sPvP.
WvW is supposed to be 24/7 warfare between the servers.

100% this. This games WvW really is DAoC2 RvR. WAR tried it but came up short (that and even in DAoC balancing three completely different realms is a nightmare). This is balanced class wise as all servers get the same classes so the “sides” in WvW are even. If you want a fair and competitive match, with no number issues, go sPVP. It’s there, it gives rewards, its very much like WoW’s arena and small man Battlegrounds.

If you want hetic zerging, small mans picking off stragglers/pvers, exention groups eating up zergs, seiging, massive battles and stale mates at keeps, come on out. If not, try sPVP, stay in PVE, or sorry, but this game really is not for you.

Oh and the orbs? Lol the bonus they give is weak. Try dmg bonuses from relics in DAoC that raised the cap not the floor on dmg. The orb bonuses are kinda weak actually imo.

WVW is pve with players. Nothing more.

Bloodtau.4672:

WVW is pve with players. Nothing more.

Hrmm…

One of us is doing WvWvW wrong…

Bloodtau.4672:

WVW is pve with players. Nothing more.

Wow… really? Look, I will agree the zerg is pretty predictable but its not scripted encounter predictable. You get enough difference in every zerg/attack that its enjoyable. Also, you can break away with small man and pester stragglers/people rejoining a zerg/running to defend/doing pve.

Tons of options in WvW and if you only see it as PvE, again, you are in the wrong game.

albi.9518:

You argument fails because it’s obvious you see the score system as the only reward for playing 3W.

3W is not about the score, it’s not about who gets the more keeps, it’s about large-scale fights between organized huge teams for the control of a map. The fighting, the strategy, the defense and attacks ARE where the fun is, only the fact to have part in such a thing is a reward by itself.

Look at board games, like, for the most famous, Risk. When you play Risk, you have some losers and a winner. Well, despite that, everyone around the table will enjoy the game, will take pleasure by making long-term strategies, hiding his intentions etc. The game itself is enjoyable, not the reward at the end. It’s the same for 3W.

I may have to read over the rules of Risk but I don’t remember one person starting with 2x the army of everyone else.

WvW is a game. Games are only fun when they are balanced.

Apparently (as this thread shows) there are some people who love just stomping on their opponents with superior numbers. But I don’t think WvW is going to be successful if every matchup ends in one side destroying the others.

I personally don’t want the only way to achieve a decent matchup to be join one of the top 3-4 servers and have to deal with significant serve queues. I hope the matchup changes in the next couple weeks balance things out, but I’m not hopeful.

Bloodtau.4672:

WVW is pve with players. Nothing more.

Man you must be really bad at this game.

To the OP, please name me one sport where the size of the team varies from the other teams during the course of the match? I didn’t see that in your post but its also a valid point =)

My son’s HS football team is awful this year. In a couple of weeks they play a team that is ranked #2 in the nation.

We are demanding that our team is allowed to play the Cheerleaders instead.

@NCSwireframe Regarding your request to name a sport where the size of the team varies from the other teams during the course of the match, I give you “Royal Shrovetide Football”. Matches last two days, and there are very few rules. There is no limit to either side on the number of players. However, neither side at any point has the opportunity to increase its strength in any way.

war isn’t a sport, nor is it fair. see you in the heart of the mists.

Gigachip.9473:

WvW isn’t supposed to be fair. If you want fair there is sPvP.
WvW is supposed to be 24/7 warfare between the servers.

So what you are saying is that in order to get the Badges of Honor required for various major items, such as Legendary Weapons, we have to stick with the non-competitive server-swap-inducing-by-buying-gems WvW? What a surprise!

The fact that sPvP give absolutely zilch when it comes to rewards that carry through to the rest of the game is because there is very little you can do to BUY SUCCESS.

WvW success, as the game currently stands, can be bought by players with real world money, buying Gems, getting a ton of in game currency and upgrading/sieging etc. That is only required early on in the match, because once the entrenched team has the upper hand with all the orbs and a healthy robust stat advantage, they won’t need to spend much on new upgrades as they wipe the lesser teams so easily. The final key in the business model comes when the losing players decide to buy a server transfer.

It is a business model of a game, nothing more. It is not designed to be a good competition. The winners can buy success. Tell me why I am wrong in a way that stands up to critical argument please.

Ruith.5861:

Gigachip.9473:

WvW isn’t supposed to be fair. If you want fair there is sPvP.
WvW is supposed to be 24/7 warfare between the servers.

So what you are saying is that in order to get the Badges of Honor required for various major items, such as Legendary Weapons, we have to stick with the non-competitive server-swap-inducing-by-buying-gems WvW? What a surprise!

The fact that sPvP give absolutely zilch when it comes to rewards that carry through to the rest of the game is because there is very little you can do to BUY SUCCESS.

WvW success, as the game currently stands, can be bought by players with real world money, buying Gems, getting a ton of in game currency and upgrading/sieging etc. That is only required early on in the match, because once the entrenched team has the upper hand with all the orbs and a healthy robust stat advantage, they won’t need to spend much on new upgrades as they wipe the lesser teams so easily. The final key in the business model comes when the losing players decide to buy a server transfer.

It is a business model of a game, nothing more. It is not designed to be a good competition. The winners can buy success. Tell me why I am wrong in a way that stands up to critical argument please.

You just need to go play another game. You have a very dystopian view of this one.

albi.9518:

You argument fails because it’s obvious you see the score system as the only reward for playing 3W.

3W is not about the score, it’s not about who gets the more keeps, it’s about large-scale fights between organized huge teams for the control of a map. The fighting, the strategy, the defense and attacks ARE where the fun is, only the fact to have part in such a thing is a reward by itself.

Look at board games, like, for the most famous, Risk. When you play Risk, you have some losers and a winner. Well, despite that, everyone around the table will enjoy the game, will take pleasure by making long-term strategies, hiding his intentions etc. The game itself is enjoyable, not the reward at the end. It’s the same for 3W.

Haha. I do love sweeping comments like this one. It begins "Your argument fails because it is obvious you … " and then proceeds to talk about something that is irrelevant. If you want to be all condescending when you reply to people’s posts, feel free but you get replies like this.

Everyone around the table playing Risk. Hmm. From my recollection that is a game based on dice rolls and the strategic decisions of whether to “Risk” an attack, or another move, etc. It is based on probability, and the skill of the decision maker. Players gain an advantage by capturing countries, just like we capture forts and supply camps. But in Risk, players don’t also want to be given an equal opportunity to earn Badges of Honor so that they can experience the game in a more complete way.

Dominant WvW servers have a distinct advantage in terms of earning Badges of Honor compared to the lesser servers, and the fact that they are a requirement to make a Legendary Weapon, one of the main goals in GW2, will encourage players to all want to congregate on the best WvW server in their match-up.

You try earning Badges of Honor at a decent pace when your server has totally lost interest in WvW and you do not want to move servers.

Risk… lol

tarnin.1690:

You just need to go play another game. You have a very dystopian view of this one.

So real life is utopia? You miss my point.

While I think about it, there are far too many comments I read in game and on the forums where people say things like “well, you should just quit the game then if you don’t like it!”

It’s the kind of comment made by someone who is probably happy with what they have (i.e. probably a winning server) and doesn’t want to admit that success in GW2 actually CAN be bought for real world money (please give me the reasoned argument explaining why it cannot and I will reply).

Of course, he may just be on one of the many losing servers and have quit WvW some time ago and has merely been oblivious to how awful the situation is getting.

I won’t be going to play another game, contrary to his advice. The rest of GW2 is awesome, and the fact that I need Badges of Honor for my Legendary means I simply must get into WvW. I am allowed to voice my opinion on how I feel about the product I have paid for, and I think I speak for a lot of other players out there.

:)

Ruith.5861:

tarnin.1690:

You just need to go play another game. You have a very dystopian view of this one.

So real life is utopia? You miss my point.

While I think about it, there are far too many comments I read in game and on the forums where people say things like “well, you should just quit the game then if you don’t like it!”

It’s the kind of comment made by someone who is probably happy with what they have (i.e. probably a winning server) and doesn’t want to admit that success in GW2 actually CAN be bought for real world money (please give me the reasoned argument explaining why it cannot and I will reply).

Of course, he may just be on one of the many losing servers and have quit WvW some time ago and has merely been oblivious to how awful the situation is getting.

I won’t be going to play another game, contrary to his advice. The rest of GW2 is awesome, and the fact that I need Badges of Honor for my Legendary means I simply must get into WvW. I am allowed to voice my opinion on how I feel about the product I have paid for, and I think I speak for a lot of other players out there.

:)

And yet you continue to completely misunderstand the issue at hand…what a surprise.

Ruith.5861:

Phaedryn.3698:

The problem you (and many others on this forum) seem to be having is one of expectations.

You are correct in saying that the problem is one of expectations. Most of us expect an enjoyable experience that is competitive. Most of the great team activities on this planet are based on good competition. The ones that are not have been lost by the wayside, the rejects in the evolution of games.

“Most of us” —- speak for yourself please! Or at least don’t speak for me…

Anyway we get it.. you don’t like WvW.. which is your right.. but what exactly are you trying to accomplish?! Having ArenaNet change WvW so it suits just your wishes?! No matter if all of us like it the way it is?!

If you want competitive PvP, ArenaNet made sPvP for that… if that isn’t to your liking either, then I guess you should try and find another game that you do like.

Ruith.5861:

Gigachip.9473:

WvW isn’t supposed to be fair. If you want fair there is sPvP.
WvW is supposed to be 24/7 warfare between the servers.

So what you are saying is that in order to get the Badges of Honor required for various major items, such as Legendary Weapons, we have to stick with the non-competitive server-swap-inducing-by-buying-gems WvW? What a surprise!

The fact that sPvP give absolutely zilch when it comes to rewards that carry through to the rest of the game is because there is very little you can do to BUY SUCCESS.

WvW success, as the game currently stands, can be bought by players with real world money, buying Gems, getting a ton of in game currency and upgrading/sieging etc. That is only required early on in the match, because once the entrenched team has the upper hand with all the orbs and a healthy robust stat advantage, they won’t need to spend much on new upgrades as they wipe the lesser teams so easily. The final key in the business model comes when the losing players decide to buy a server transfer.

It is a business model of a game, nothing more. It is not designed to be a good competition. The winners can buy success. Tell me why I am wrong in a way that stands up to critical argument please.

gold was never designed to be the limiting factor in terms of money/seige. supply is. that is the entire purpose to supply in the first place, to limit the effect of money in WVW.

And WVW was designed to be fun, not competitive. the two are not inextricably entwined.

@OP

You do know that WvW is mainly about strategy and not skill right? The skill cap for this game is low as hell, everyone should be able to control their character properly. WvW is about which server has better leadership, planning, etc..

If it was purely based on skill, yes it would be close. But some server have hardcore guilds with amazing coordination and that is why they can pull such a huge lead for their server. There is nothing wrong in that. If you wish for your server to keep up, simply get better.

Ruith.5861:

Boulderbolg.3460:

…WvW is not like a sport, it is like war. Nothing is fair and balanced in war.

And real wars are not fun. People rarely pay to join a real war. They would rather be playing a decent football match with their mates.

Please don’t compare anything in this game to real war. If you are unfortunate enough to have any real world experience of real wars you would understand that sitting in front of a computer clicking buttons is as far removed from real war as it comes.

Next time you are talking to someone who has just returned from a real warzone, ask them how similar WvW is to it, because you think “it is like it”.

I am sorry if I offended you. I never used the word “real”, you read that into my post. The point that you missed wasn’t that I want the game to be like real war. I simply want it to be more dynamic than a simple “sport”. If you want fairness, sPvP was developed for a reason. SPvP bores the crap out of me, so I don’t do it. If you don’t understand WvW, then don’t play it.

While not a sport, one of the most competitive games on the planet has a slippery slope, Chess.

While the winning player does not gain pieces, as the game progresses the opposite happens and the losing player loses his pieces giving him less options to attack and defend with compared to his opponent.

This creates the same type of scenario we see in WvWvW where a losing team has to outplay the winning team in the “second half” more then the winning team outplayed the losing team in the “first half”.

Now there’s nothing wrong with a slippery slope in of itself. Even if the game essentially boils down to whoever captures the first supply camp will have a strong enough advantage to ride to victory there will still be a playable game. You fight tooth and nail for that supply camp. You have to understand the consequences of slippery slopes, the losing player or team will always tend to bow out early.

In Chess, it’s not terribly rare for games to be forfeit before their completion. If you don’t think you have enough pieces to do the job then plenty of people think that it’s just better to bow out and prepare for the next game.

WvWvW suffers from this same effect. While the match is a week long the victor is generally decided long before that, and the losing server’s players generally start to bow out long before the match has finished to prepare for the next match.

The difference between chess and WvWvW though is as soon as the losing player bows out the game ends, and both players can head to their next match. In WvWvW every team is stuck in that match until that week ends.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying slippery slopes are evil and must be eliminated from the game entirely. I just want players (and designers) to understand their impact.

To be honest I don’t even think it is possible to eliminate every slippery slope from a game like this because it’s impossible to eliminate the biggest slope of them all, morale. As the game continues, the winning team gets bigger and the losing team gets smaller.

If anything I just think it is unnecessary to add artificial slippery slopes, like orb bonuses, on top of the natural ones like morale. It might be worth considering alleviating some of the more unnecessary ones, especially if the ANet’s designers are intending for WvWvW to eventually stretch to 2 week matches. The way things are now matches are decided by the 3rd or 4th day. Making the matches last 14 days is just pointless, unnecessary, and wastes all 3 servers time unless some of the slippery slopes are removed.

As long as I have fun in fight – I don’t care about the score or the ‘competition’.
If I wanted that, I’d be in sPvP – but I’m not – I’m in WvW.