Guild Wars 2

PopeUrban.2578:

Seras.5702:

The Flame Legion brought some corrupt gods to the Charr and were leading them astray. The other legions fought back & drove out the gods.

Wrong.

There were no four distinct legions at the time. The “legions” were not autonamous entities as they are today, as all Charr were led by a single office, that of the Khan-Ur.

The Charr were united at the time of the searing, there was no “aww you shouldn’t have done that flame legion”

Charr owe humans a lot more than they like to admit.

QFT

I dont understand this apologist movement with charr. The sickening talk of from charr against Rurik in the Black Citadel is the worse display of bias history ive seen. I’ve also never encountered, or read the the humans ever using an mass genocide (see: The Searing) against the charr either, or any other race. Can someone please tell how the humans are “just” as bad as the charr? The humans didn’t keep the charr as slaves for decades, and they certainly didn’t keep charr cubs as slaves. If you want to know how bad it was keep as a slave – read Gwen’s experiences with them .

FYI: The charr don’t deserve Ascalon, and it was crtainly never their “homeland”.

Dream Runner.8546

I dont understand this apologist movement with charr. The sickening talk of from charr against Rurik in the Black Citadel is the worse display of bias history ive seen. I’ve also never encountered, or read the the humans ever using an mass genocide (see: The Searing) against the charr either, or any other race. Can someone please tell how the humans are “just” as bad as the charr? The humans didn’t keep the charr as slaves for decades, and they certainly didn’t keep charr cubs as slaves. If you want to know how bad it was keep as a slave – read Gwen’s experiences with them.

I remember that conversation in the Black Citadel. Ironically, if you’re a Charr and talk to another charr NPC nearby, she confides in you that she suspects that the “official” history is whitewashes and it wasn’t as black & white as Charr historians would have their cubs believe. Yet at the same time, can you really blame modern Charr for holding to that belief if that’s all they’ve been told from when they were young? It would be like being told by a Japanese that the US only joined WWII because they were greedy and expansionististic, and didn’t manage to turn Japan into a colony of the US only because the other Allies talked them out of it.

I won’t deny that the Charr during GW1 were brutal and cruel. (As a GW1 player, I have no regrets over the thousands of Charr I slaughtered throughout the course of that game.) The Flame Legion were the worst offenders, but if Pyre was anything to go by, the other Legions nevertheless approved of the Searing and the war against Ascalon. Modern Charr, however, tend to see the actions of their ancestors as needlessly barbaric or destructive. There’s a Charr Heart NPC near Oldgate Ruins in Diessa Plateau who openly calls the Flame Legion “butchers” for attacking the village 250 years ago and slaughtering everyone within its walls.

It doesn’t excuse what the Charr did in the past, but we can’t vilify modern Charr for the actions of their ancestors, any more than we can blame modern Americans for the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima or Nagasaki, modern Europeans for the massacre of Jerusalem when the Crusaders attacked it, or modern Mongolians for the bloody wars waged by Genghis Khan.

I see this a lot on these forums, “modern Charr.” I don’t get this. There is almost nothing in pre-EotN GW1 that lends itself to the Charr being anything other than just another threat to Tyria that needs put down, just like the Mursaat, Margonites, and even Titans. The only difference being they are way more savage and numerous. Having them riding around in tanks and helicopters today, while the humans, who engineered a wall that would rival China’s Wall mind you, actually managed to devolve somehow. It’s just plain ridiculous.

It’s not just the Charr either, there are tons of things that don’t make sense to the GW1 world: giant asuran lasers, 4-story motorcyles, absent gods…absent and powerless apparently, the orders, rifles and pistols, no healers, a giant floating steel super-carrier…wth, having everyone but humans as experts on Orr, golems…all golems really. dot dot dot

But more importantly, it is so glaringly obvious to me that the creators of this modern lore don’t feel the need to make any kind of reasonable connection to the past. They wanted a new, fresh game with new races(or species as I like to call them, when I think of “races” in this game I usually think: Canthan, Elonian, Krytan, etc) to play. They wanted to be bigger than GW1, a lot bigger. And the only way to do that is by appealing to as many different demographic groups as you can. That’s why we have these 5 races to choose from, not because of some long-buried narrative that is only now unfolding. The lore doesn’t fit together simply because it wasn’t in ANet’s and NCsoft’s best interest.

It’s disheartening to me, and a little amusing I have to admit, the lengths to which people will go to try and meld current and past lore into a cogent whole. It’s hardly a veiled attempt at mass appeal, I’m not sure why that’s not obvious here. The only problem ANet has with this is a small minority of GW1 players that feel disillusioned with the new content. Small price to pay for GotY and the bank they make with such a marketable MMO. I mean, the original high-end GW2 edition came with a cute little Charr Rytlock plushie…wth is that all about?

It’s a children’s game now peeps, get em while they are young and impressionable and they will stay with you through dozens of expansions.

For myself, I’ve switched to playing GW2 content like it’s an entirely new game with no precedents. You’d be surprised with the results, the PvE world is actually rather enjoyable now.

I troll because I care

Obsidian.1328:

I see this a lot on these forums, “modern Charr.” I don’t get this. There is almost nothing in pre-EotN GW1 that lends itself to the Charr being anything other than just another threat to Tyria that needs put down, just like the Mursaat, Margonites, and even Titans. The only difference being they are way more savage and numerous.

I think you underestimate how quickly a people and their culture can change when exposed to different societies and their values. One good example from real life was the Meiji Restoration in Japan after the US broke their self-imposed isolation. Within a century, the social and political structure of Japanese society changed almost beyond recognition. Even slow diffusion of culture through trade or media can have profound impacts on a society. Movies, TV and the Internet have such far-reaching influence throughout the world that nearly all young people within the 15 – 25 age demographic are likely to have similar tastes in music, fashion and hobbies.

The transformation of the Charr from what they were in GW1 to what they are now maybe be somewhat exaggerated, but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility.

Zaxares.5419:

I think you underestimate how quickly a people and their culture can change when exposed to different societies and their values. One good example from real life was the Meiji Restoration in Japan after the US broke their self-imposed isolation. Within a century, the social and political structure of Japanese society changed almost beyond recognition. Even slow diffusion of culture through trade or media can have profound impacts on a society. Movies, TV and the Internet have such far-reaching influence throughout the world that nearly all young people within the 15 – 25 age demographic are likely to have similar tastes in music, fashion and hobbies.

The transformation of the Charr from what they were in GW1 to what they are now maybe be somewhat exaggerated, but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility.

It’s not that really, I just never saw the Charr as an intellegent species. Some of that is personal bias I’m sure, but some is also situational to in-game missions. A lot have used analogies like the Native Americans, Africans, or Japan like you mentioned, before they were exposed to more modern “westerners,” or more aptly “western ideas.” In all those cases, however, we are taking about the same species. I don’t akin the Charr to human beings like I would the dwarves or tengu, for example, in GW1. They were always just another world mob to kill. Granted they almost overran the known world but I attributed this to 1) Titan(Abaddon’s) influence and 2) the numbers to do it. Abaddon could have just have easily chosen another random group like grawl or ogres to screw with humanity.

To me, it’s dubious to compare Charr to “unenlightened” real-world humans. It would be more apt to compare them to neanderthals or gorillas.

Obsidian.1328:

It’s not that really, I just never saw the Charr as an intellegent species. Some of that is personal bias I’m sure, but some is also situational to in-game missions. A lot have used analogies like the Native Americans, Africans, or Japan like you mentioned, before they were exposed to more modern “westerners,” or more aptly “western ideas.” In all those cases, however, we are taking about the same species. I don’t akin the Charr to human beings like I would the dwarves or tengu, for example, in GW1. They were always just another world mob to kill. Granted they almost overran the known world but I attributed this to 1) Titan(Abaddon’s) influence and 2) the numbers to do it. Abaddon could have just have easily chosen another random group like grawl or ogres to screw with humanity.

To me, it’s dubious to compare Charr to “unenlightened” real-world humans. It would be more apt to compare them to neanderthals or gorillas.

That is fair enough, as I acknowledge that the Charr were pretty much painted as a sub-intelligent race of savages during Prophecies. We never had any instances of Charr speaking to humans, for example. That changed during Nightfall, however, when we meet a few Charr (Ember Scorchspire and Garfaz Steelfur) in the Realm of Torment and realised that they actually ARE intelligent beings who are capable of rational thought and free will. We get more examples of this in EotN, when we meet Pyre and his warband.

We also learn that Anton attempted to make a bargain with Rend Ragemauler to spare his villager, which means that the Ascalonians must have known that the Charr were intelligent enough to attempt diplomacy with, but for one reason or another this was never attempted. (Quite likely because the Charr refused to negotiate and killed all the emissaries sent to them, of course. I know what they were like and I won’t absolve them of all blame. ) However, once the Charr saw the benefits of peaceful associations with other races, and trade and diplomacy started to get going, I imagine it wouldn’t take long, perhaps within a generation or two, for even the Charr to start moderating their behaviour.

I expect Abaddon chose the Charr for his plans because he saw that they had the necessary ferocity, military capability and intelligence to serve his purposes. He didn’t choose the Grawl because they were still too primitive and technologically backward, and the Ogres were probably too uninterested in war or too few in numbers.

Zaxares.5419:

That is fair enough, as I acknowledge that the Charr were pretty much painted as a sub-intelligent race of savages during Prophecies. We never had any instances of Charr speaking to humans, for example. That changed during Nightfall, however, when we meet a few Charr (Ember Scorchspire and Garfaz Steelfur) in the Realm of Torment and realised that they actually ARE intelligent beings who are capable of rational thought and free will. We get more examples of this in EotN, when we meet Pyre and his warband.

We also learn that Anton attempted to make a bargain with Rend Ragemauler to spare his villager, which means that the Ascalonians must have known that the Charr were intelligent enough to attempt diplomacy with, but for one reason or another this was never attempted. (Quite likely because the Charr refused to negotiate and killed all the emissaries sent to them, of course. I know what they were like and I won’t absolve them of all blame. ) However, once the Charr saw the benefits of peaceful associations with other races, and trade and diplomacy started to get going, I imagine it wouldn’t take long, perhaps within a generation or two, for even the Charr to start moderating their behaviour.

I expect Abaddon chose the Charr for his plans because he saw that they had the necessary ferocity, military capability and intelligence to serve his purposes. He didn’t choose the Grawl because they were still too primitive and technologically backward, and the Ogres were probably too uninterested in war or too few in numbers.

It’s true that EotN paints them a different picture, I just don’t think that’s how they were ever intended. Jeff Grubs is probably the one primarily behind the making of the modern Charr, but that’s just my current hunch. He was first brought on to help write NF, which is, not coincidentally, where we first meet those two sympathetic Charr characters…and they can talk! And with EotN(Jeff was a major player in this lore) as a prelude to GW2, we see how the Charr were to be different in the future. I just don’t put much credit with any lore that comes post Nightfall as far as GW1 is concerned. ANet had a new agenda and a lot of new faces on the payroll. Whatever original intentions the creators had with GW1 died with EotN and the introduction of the four races we see now. I can’t prove any of this of course, but it seems logical and fits the story-arc ANet has taken with GW2 in so many ways.

You’re probably right about the Charr’s role in EotN and GW2 being reworked to give them a larger part. Still, no story is ever fully fleshed out when it first starts being written. Characters and plots evolve and change along the way, and sometimes end up in a completely different place to where you’d first intended. Any writer or game designer will tell you the same.

Honestly it surprised me to realise that the charr taking over(/back) Ascalon didn’t bother me in this game.

When I first heard that was going to happen it really dissapointed me, I felt like it meant we’d lost and everything we did through the first chunk of Prophecies, not to mention some of the EOTN quests, was a complete waste of time.

Oddly enough it was playing through the Battle for LA that first changed my mind. It was the first time I felt like my character really “belonged” to the group she was defending since the Ascalon missions (and consequently the first time she felt like she belonged). Everything else had been “helping out” because she happened to be there. Even getting the refugees over the Shiverpeaks, it never occured to me until the Battle for LA that my character was one of those refugees. (Afterall she could go back to Ascalon any time she wanted.)

And that revelation got me thinking – I’d already decided my character would live in Kryta when she settled down after the end of the game. Her descendants would be Krytan for all intents and purposes – Ascalon wouldn’t be home and most of them wouldn’t even remember it as a human kingdom. They’d let it go, so I should too.

It still sent a shiver up my spine (literally) when I first came across the ruins of Grendich Courthouse and realised I knew it from GW1, but it was the same way I felt when I first saw the Temple of Ages. It was weird to think I not only knew this place but in a matter of a minute or so could be back there as it was. It didn’t bother me that the charr had taken over, only that it was gone.

I feel sorry for the ghosts of ascalon. But that’s mainly because I hate the charr. I’m a little bit racist against those furrbolgs.

+ Since there are no factions, I miss someone to hate. I had the horde to hate in WoW, so if I could hate anyone in GW2, it might aswell be the fleabags!

Dream Runner.8546:

Can someone please tell how the humans are “just” as bad as the charr?

Well…

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_hide_armor
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Elite_Charr_Hide_armor

^Lol

Ironically you’re helping my argument. Plainly, back then the writers saw the Charr as little more than beasts with opposable thumbs.

In a related note, anyone else get the feeling that the transition from GW1 to 2 was like going from PG-13 to G?

Obsidian.1328:

^Lol

Ironically you’re helping my argument. Plainly, back then the writers saw the Charr as little more than beasts with opposable thumbs.

In a related note, anyone else get the feeling that the transition from GW1 to 2 was like going from PG-13 to G?

I noticed that, too, actually. Despite some goofy moments, I felt like the GW1 universe was more dark and brutal than the one presented in GW2. Characters were more prone to permanent maiming/death, the antagonists were more ruthless and cruel, the enemies were much more deadly, the environments were more mysterious and sometimes harsh, and the situations were (or at least felt) much more dire and serious. Heck, the games themselves were much more hardcore and unforgiving: if a party wiped in a mission/dungeon instance in GW1, it was over, with no option to retry at a checkpoint or WP rez like there exists now in GW2.

Different games for different audiences/times, I’m afraid, for better or for worse. It’s kind of like comparing Skyrim to, say, Morrowind. :T

The charr still do not acknowledge the searing as a terrible act. (using wmds to indiscriminately burn and render uninhabitable large primarily civillian areas)

Rhytlock’s sword was plundered from ascalon, and if he were not so stubborn as to continue to cling to it, he could arrange with logan to have Jennah bear this sword to Ascalon and lift the foefire’s curse — freeing both the Ascalonians and the Charr.

No, I believe until the charr grow a concience regarding this issue, the ghosts will continue to act as their conscience for them, making sure the black citadel and its surroundings never know peace, as the ghosts of their victims manifest in their homes and attack their cubs while they sleep.

For the part of the ghosts… they are in no worse a situation than had Adelberne ordered a surrender.

I wish ANet would let us Human’s interact with our… past? I’m still kitten at the Charr. I don’t know about you guys… “The only good Charr is a dead Charr.”

plasmacutter.2709:

The charr still do not acknowledge the searing as a terrible act. (using wmds to indiscriminately burn and render uninhabitable large primarily civillian areas)

They’re too busy dealing with the after-effects of the Foefire to be sorry. Also, they’re Charr.

plasmacutter.2709:

Rhytlock’s sword was plundered from ascalon, and if he were not so stubborn as to continue to cling to it, he could arrange with logan to have Jennah bear this sword to Ascalon and lift the foefire’s curse — freeing both the Ascalonians and the Charr.

To be fair, Sohothin’s last sighting before Rytlock got a hold of it wasn’t in Ascalon, and lifting the Foefire’s curse requires both Sohothin and Magdaer, and as we know Magdaer is in no shape to be wielded by anyone at the moment.

plasmacutter.2709:

No, I believe until the charr grow a concience regarding this issue, the ghosts will continue to act as their conscience for them, making sure the black citadel and its surroundings never know peace, as the ghosts of their victims manifest in their homes and attack their cubs while they sleep.

They’re Charr, though. Constant war is kind of their thing.

plasmacutter.2709:

For the part of the ghosts… they are in no worse a situation than had Adelberne ordered a surrender.

This I really can’t get behind. Had Adelbern ordered a surrender, the Charr would’ve likely killed everyone immediately, or if not immediately, in very short order. The souls of the defeated Ascalonians would’ve likely at that point went on into the Mists. That compared to over two centuries of restless torment initiated by your own king, at least in my opinion, would be a better end. It’s basically a choice between a quick death and then Valhalla, or being trapped in a form of purgatory that may never see an end, and I at least vote for the former being the better choice that the Ascalonians were not allowed to make.

achensherd.2735:

Had Adelbern ordered a surrender, the Charr would’ve likely killed everyone immediately, or if not immediately, in very short order. The souls of the defeated Ascalonians would’ve likely at that point went on into the Mists. That compared to over two centuries of restless torment initiated by your own king, at least in my opinion, would be a better end. It’s basically a choice between a quick death and then Valhalla, or being trapped in a form of purgatory that may never see an end, and I at least vote for the former being the better choice that the Ascalonians were not allowed to make.

Die or die?

How is that a better choice? I don’t begrudge the king for doing what he did. He’s not anymore crazy then the charr sycophants that wrought the searing.

His course of action while he was alive was one of desperation in an impossible situation.

You would have done no better. You’d have seen the death of your people and your kingdom one way or another.

At least in this way everybody would have the chance to give these beasties hell.

We all had our genocidal goes at each other and we’re both still standing. We can keep going until one of us dies or we can stop.

Charr may like warfare, but they’re mortal.

You can’t wage war forever, much less against a countless amount of super natural beings that can’t be permanently dealt with.

Add to that a mortal war between dragons, living humans, and should the charr become less diplomatic and more xenophobic (Flame Legion threat), pretty much all the other sentient races of Tyria…

It doesn’t bode well for the charr to be antagonistic towards peace. They would benefit from it in every way.

Humans being on the brink are in a similar position. We can’t afford to let the past define our course in this instance.

The charr prove to be invaluable allies, and time will continue to heal the past. This generations rocky peace will be tomorrows steadfast allies with hope.

It’s poetic that the only true release for both the charr and the ghosts of Ascalon will be by forging a peace between our people.

Then our ancestors will rest and the charr will have reprieve.

it’s not die or die. It’s die quick or die over and over again for 250+ years. There have actually been cruel dictators who keep doctors on hand to keep their torture victims revived as long as possible. Sometimes for weeks on end. Which most would agree is a worse fate than a quick death.

The charr have actually found a violent solution to the ghosts of ascalon in ghostbore technology. Not as poetic but definatlly in the spirit of charr.

Dustfinger.9510:

it’s not die or die. It’s die quick or die over and over again for 250+ years. There have actually been cruel dictators who keep doctors on hand to keep their torture victims revived as long as possible. Sometimes for weeks on end. Which most would agree is a worse fate than a quick death.

So, yes. It’s die or die. Both end up with you being dead.

Dustfinger.9510:

The charr have actually found a violent solution to the ghosts of ascalon in ghostbore technology. Not as poetic but definatlly in the spirit of charr.

And how has that worked out for them? They still have a ghost problem.

So, yes. It’s die or die. Both end up with you being dead.

i guess if you want to simplify it to the point of absurdidty. But by this logic murder is the same as a peaceful death since both outcomes end with the person being dead. And there would still be no reason for the foe fire becasue the end is the same…. eventually. /shrug

And how has that worked out for them? They still have a ghost problem.

They just started but from the testing, it goes pretty good What had been failing before was the containment units. because the ghosts would always get set free. Now there’ll be nothing to set free.

Dustfinger.9510:

i guess if you want to simplify it to the point of absurdidty. But by this logic murder is the same as a peaceful death since both outcomes end with the person being dead.

It’s insincere to interject a murder argument into war. That’s not how murder works.

“WHAT IF THE MILITARY GOT INVESTIGATED 4 MURDER???”

Dustfinger.9510:

They just started but from the testing, it goes pretty good What had been failing before was the containment units. because the ghosts would always get set free. Now there’ll be nothing to set free.

Last I checked, charr are still troubled by ghosts. Somethings getting free out there.

It’s insincere to interject a murder argument into war. That’s not how murder works.

“WHAT IF THE MILITARY GOT INVESTIGATED 4 MURDER???”

Not sure how that response applies. My post is applicable becasue you equated all death. So you contradict yourself by saying it’s insincere at all. because by saying it, you take a position that there is death that is okay. Thereby implying that all death is not equal.

Last I checked, charr are still troubled by ghosts. Somethings getting free out there.

yep. it’s the containment units. As I just said.

The joke’s on Adelbern and the ghosts if the Charr just up and leave in their Death Star.

Also, it’s not “die or die”. There is an afterlife in the GW2 universe, a Valhalla of sorts, one that has been denied to the Ascalonians because they’ve been condemned to a form of limbo by the Foefire.

Put it this way, I don’t feel for the Charr so much as I feel for the Ascalonians who have been forcibly condemned to this potential eternity of restlessness. The continuing generations of Charr getting or not getting what’s coming to them for the sins of their ancestors is, at least to me, small potatoes next to the mindless suffering the original Ascalonians (both soldiers and civilians) have been undergoing for over two centuries now, which goes back to what this thread was about: “Do you feel bad for the Ghosts of Ascalon?”

Do I feel bad for the Ghosts of Ascalon? Yes, yes I do. The fate they’ve been subjected to is horrendous to the point that I’d rather my GW1 character to have been killed by the Charr than to share in the same fate as the ghosts.

Dustfinger.9510:

Not sure how that response applies. My post is applicable becasue you equated all death. So you contradict yourself by saying it’s insincere at all. because by saying it, you take a position that there is death that is okay. Thereby implying that all death is not equal.

achensherd.2735:

Also, it’s not “die or die”.

Please don’t take me out of context. Such as in the example of war VS murder, there are differences.

Mine was in the context of this discussion and not to be assumed that I have such a simplistic view of death overall.

That’s poor hermeneutics on your part.

But yes. Die or die. There is no better option unless you think death is a good thing. It’s not. I don’t believe so. Do you?

Being dead is something you want to avoid. You can continue to argue the semantics if you want. Makes no difference to me.

Per this instance, dead is dead, be it slow or be it quick.

For Ascalon’s last day, it came down to be dead or be dead and raise all kinds of hell for the kittens who put you in the ground.

The charr learned that day that you don’t mess with Adelbern.

They’ve been reminded of the fact every moment since then when they lose their cubs and their mates to the curse of the land.

It’s a tragedy that affects both sides.

Dustfinger.9510:

yep. it’s the containment units. As I just said.

Somebody dropped the ball then. It’s very uncharr like to supposedly have the solution to your problem, and then still have the problem just the same.

As long as the ghosts of Ascalon remain, I’m going to assume they have a ghost problem and that the ghostbore weaponry while effective in what it does on an individual basis, doesn’t do much for the problem at large.

CETheLucid.3964:

It’s a tragedy that affects both sides.

Exactly.

Somebody dropped the ball then. It’s very uncharr like to supposedly have the solution to your problem, and then still have the problem just the same.

As long as the ghosts of Ascalon remain, I’m going to assume they have a ghost problem and that the ghostbore weaponry while effective in what it does on an individual basis, doesn’t do much for the problem at large.

No ball is dropped here. The charr plans take actual lore time to implement. That’s very charr like. The containment units were a temporary solution that kept the ghost contained. But like most things, have some form of weakness. The ghostbore weponry doesn’t have that weakness. It seems that according to lore, the only weakness it has is a matter of resources. which means it can’t be deployed on a grand scale. but neither was the containment units. the main diffrence here, however is that once a ghost is taken care of by ghostbore weoponry it will never be a problem again. so it really is the beginning of the end for the ghosts. yes they are a problem. And yes there is a solution. that’ the lore.

So as far as the larger problem goes, it will always make it less of a problem no matter how few they take out. It actualy addresses the large problem where as the containment units did not.

The charrr didn’t learn not to mess with adelbern. They learnd that their warrior ways are validated becasue it is what keeps them in the lands fighting ghosts. nothing in lore suggests they have learned not mess with anybody.

Dustfinger.9510:

No ball is dropped here. The charr plans take actual lore time to implement. That’s very charr like. The containment units were a temporary solution that kept the ghost contained. But like most things, have some form of weakness. The ghostbore weponry doesn’t have that weakness. It seems that according to lore, the only weakness it has is a matter of resources. which means it can’t be deployed on a grand scale. but neither was the containment units. the main diffrence here, however is that once a ghost is taken care of by ghostbore weoponry it will never be a problem again. so it really is the beginning of the end for the ghosts. yes they are a problem. And yes there is a solution. that’ the lore.

Mmhm. Per the lore and the in game environment at present, Ascalon remains a haunted land. Before, and more importantly, after ghostbore weaponry.

They still have a ghost problem. You can’t deny that anytime you decide to take a stroll through Ascalon.

However, you’re free to speculate that ghostbore weaponry is the beginning of the end in place of a lasting peace between charr and humans with Magdaer and Sohothin lifting the curse.

That story isn’t concluded just yet.

You are right, it isn’t concluded. As I said it is a problem at present. that isn’t even up for debate and i’m not trying to debate it since the solution (ghostbore weaponry) just got invented but the logical conclusion is inevitable. Everytime ghostbore weoponry is used, the ghosts forces are permanently weakened.

that means the balance that has been tieing up the charr forces for centuries is shifting in charr favor. As the ghosts weaken, the charr strengthen and the flame legion knows this. As per the story line, less forces devoted to ghosts means more forces devoted towrds fighting the flame legion. That’s why they tried to sabotage the plans but they failed and ghostbore weaponry was born.

achensherd.2735:

Dream Runner.8546:

Can someone please tell how the humans are “just” as bad as the charr?

Well…

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_hide_armor
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Elite_Charr_Hide_armor

So what? Charr ate humans and call humans “meat” – not even recognizing their accomplishments against the Titans, or even holding off the Charr out of Ascalon for 1000 years. But please, other than some cosmetic armor. Where does the humans actually demostrate their horrible nature against the Charr?

Dream Runner.8546:

So what? Charr ate humans and call humans “meat” – not even recognizing their accomplishments against the Titans, or even holding off the Charr out of Ascalon for 1000 years. But please, other than some cosmetic armor. Where does the humans actually demostrate their horrible nature against the Charr?

- “So, as you all can see, this man has committed the following crimes …”
- “Ah, come on, someone else did some crimes too! So i innocent! This is perfectly logical, why didn’t you see that?”

A crime is a crime, regardless of whether the offense was committed by someone else.

So what we’re looking at is a race of big cat man-eaters vs a race of serial killer Ed Geins. they both sound pretty horrible.

Yep. The Ghosts are just trapped, and while they’re there they’re kicking Charr kitten Admittedly they’re not the Charr who deserve it, but I’m unsympathetic to the entire race given their history and attitude. More over what they’ve done to Ascalon since then is filled it with pollution and just crap, ruining my screenshots.

Incidentally the Ascalon Fractal is my least favourite.

Rednik.3809:

- “So, as you all can see, this man has committed the following crimes …”
- “Ah, come on, someone else did some crimes too! So i innocent! This is perfectly logical, why didn’t you see that?”

A crime is a crime, regardless of whether the offense was committed by someone else.

You act like these things happened last night or something. This was over the course of 250 years or so. What’s done is done.

Atrocities were committed by both sides here. Neither race get’s the victim card. We were both awful to one and other.

That can change or we can keep at each others throats. It is far more beneficial to seek peace then to continue an endless race war.

It’s more fun and unique too. Charr’s and humans and all the races mingled together, united against a common bad is a lot more interesting then racial factions.

I really enjoy GW2 for that. I feel for the ghosts of the past, but I’m also practical and willing to move forward with whatever comes.

A moral and satisfying end to all of this would be a decisive peace between our people, human and charr, and with it the end of Ascalon’s curse and the freedom of our ancestors.

Many longstanding GW1 players do feel like it happened “last night”, which is something that lore can’t take into account, but which does have an influence. It’s 250 years between the two games but has only been recently for GW1 players that they fought the beasts that are the Charr in GW Prophecies. Beasts who weren’t even capable of speech, who committed genocide on an innocent population, destroyed the land, served an evil god and even ate humans.

I see the Charr of GW2 as a different species, kinda. The Charr of GW1 were (with very few exceptions which were added later) just evil monsters one killed (so that they did not kill you), so there is no feeling of “atrocities” committed by humanity in the minds of many players.

Although GW2 tries to retcon some of the things the Charr did, it still does have an influence on how many players feel, me being among them. And it remains to be seen if the Charr are capable of keeping peace, or if they try to eradicate the “infestation” (that’s how they saw humanity) once more in the future.

Which leads me to the original question of this thread, i do feel for the ghosts. I avoid fighting them as much as i can. They deserve to be laid to rest eventually, but the time is not right for that yet. As much as i pity them, they serve as a way to control the Charr to some degree.

Frosch.7809:

Many longstanding GW1 players do feel like it happened “last night”, which is something that lore can’t take into account, but which does have an influence. It’s 250 years between the two games but has only been recently for GW1 players that they fought the beasts that are the Charr in GW Prophecies. Beasts who weren’t even capable of speech, who committed genocide on an innocent population, destroyed the land, served an evil god and even ate humans.

I see the Charr of GW2 as a different species, kinda. The Charr of GW1 were (with very few exceptions which were added later) just evil monsters one killed (so that they did not kill you), so there is no feeling of “atrocities” committed by humanity in the minds of many players.

Although GW2 tries to retcon some of the things the Charr did, it still does have an influence on how many players feel, me being among them. And it remains to be seen if the Charr are capable of keeping peace, or if they try to eradicate the “infestation” (that’s how they saw humanity) once more in the future.

Which leads me to the original question of this thread, i do feel for the ghosts. I avoid fighting them as much as i can. They deserve to be laid to rest eventually, but the time is not right for that yet. As much as i pity them, they serve as a way to control the Charr to some degree.

I’m a longstanding GW1 player.

I still thought charr were pretty awesome, even if it was my goal to pretty much eradicate every one of them I ran across due to the hostilities of the time.

A morbid respect I guess.

Still, I let Pyre and his warband live. When the time came that our people had to war again I never did find him on the field of battle, nor he I.

You’re just more a Gwen type.

In Gwen’s case, it was completely understandable. I also sympathize with the folks in Ebonhawk who lost their loved ones in the wars.

These are my own brothers and sisters lorewise. I get it.

Just be careful of your zeal and your hatred blinding you. The past is the past. What we’ve suffered the charr have suffered in turn. We live today. They’re really not all bad.

Some of them have a tail stomping coming to them, an entire legion still wants to kill you (and their own brothers and sisters for that matter)…

But the greater majority respect the treaty between our people and several are fine folks. Some are cherished and beloved friends without equal.

Wouldn’t replace them for anyone else. Get to know them. You might be surprised.

I had a strong dislike for the Charr in GW1 and still have. I would not call it hate, as it is a game after all and i consider hate to be a futile emotion. I can tolerate the Charr of GW2 as most of them have learned to show some basic politeness and do not try to kill my character. I still see them as a potential danger to humanity, although i do not expect war to break out again. So as long as the elder dragons are still around the ghosts serve as a way to deter the Charr. After the elder dragons have been defeated and the peace treaty has lasted till then one can think about giving the ghosts the peace they deserve. It’s still a long way to go till then.

I can never forgive the Charr for what they did to Lady Althea. (>_<)

Yeah, basically it suck for both sides. Ascalon may have been Charr land once but the humans living there at the time weren’t the ones who drove the Charr out. To them they were just deafening their home. Same thing applies to the Charr.
I don’t really care which race had the land first or which has committed the most atrocities against the other over the years. If someone is to be punished it should be based on what they did, not there ancestor and not a collective punishment for an entire race.

monkeytose.7924:

I can never forgive the Charr for what they did to Lady Althea. (>_<)

I just wanted to comment on this …but I deal with it in few ways :

• I go to CURRENT Charr lands and just stand there (on a hill possibly) and watch as Ghost’s eradicate them in DE’s ^^
• If it was up to me, I would kill every single Charr existing (In Ascalon, they can have their old Northern plains)

Oh, and as much as I hate useless Logan (Mockery to Gwen’s line), I love it when he and that useless kitten fight XD

I just hope that they’ll present a new descendant of Gwen in Living Story that will kill Logan ^^

Human / Charr moralization aside, yes, I do sometimes feel a bit guilty when beating up on the ghosts. It is difficult to lay aside my humanity to that extent. Until they start beating up on me…

Persian Mage.5617:

Never liked the Charr and if I get the chance to work with the ghosts, I will, to free Ascalon and rebuild The Wall!

Rebuild The Wall? No, we need to kill all Charr so that we may never need a wall Again!
Return Ascalon to it’s former pre-searing glory!

ZenonSeth.5739:

Rebuild The Wall? No, we need to kill all Charr so that we may never need a wall Again!
Return Ascalon to it’s former pre-searing glory!

You’re gonna need gods for that. and they’ve abandoned you. ;P

Dustfinger.9510:

You’re gonna need gods for that. and they’ve abandoned you. ;P

A Human has become a God before! We can do it again, even without the Gods’ help!

Lillian Wandom Hale.7102:

monkeytose.7924:

I can never forgive the Charr for what they did to Lady Althea. (>_<)

I just wanted to comment on this …but I deal with it in few ways :

• I go to CURRENT Charr lands and just stand there (on a hill possibly) and watch as Ghost’s eradicate them in DE’s ^^
• If it was up to me, I would kill every single Charr existing (In Ascalon, they can have their old Northern plains)

While I would gladly bring justice to the Flame Legion curs that murdered Althea (and I often did, whenever I passed through the area on my way to Dragon’s Gullet), saying that you’d murder all modern Charr for their ancestor’s actions is like saying you want to kill every modern German who has a National Socialist in their family history. Or that you want to drop nuclear bombs on New York and San Francisco today in retaliation for the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Zaxares.5419:

[snip]
While I would gladly bring justice to the Flame Legion curs that murdered Althea (and I often did, whenever I passed through the area on my way to Dragon’s Gullet), saying that you’d murder all modern Charr for their ancestor’s actions is like saying you want to kill every modern German who has a National Socialist in their family history. Or that you want to drop nuclear bombs on New York and San Francisco today in retaliation for the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Well, first off this is a game, so when we say we’d kill all Charr we’re not even close to what you’re comparing to.

Second, any charr, regardless of their legion, will do to any human what they did to Althea without much objection or protest.

Don’t give me that “charr can be friendly crap” – their history clearly shows them out to kill pretty much everyone who’s not charr (or heck, anyone who’s not their legion or warband). The only reason they’ve stopped is to fight the dragons, after which I fully expect them to go back to killing everyone else.

ZenonSeth.5739:

Don’t give me that “charr can be friendly crap” – their history clearly shows them out to kill pretty much everyone who’s not charr.

Not “kill”, but “controle”. They have always had the goal of subjugating everyone around them. Just like the asura. They wanted to kill humans because they were the biggest proven threat to their race in the entire charr history. And they destroyed others who defied them in their own lands but they were fine subjugating other races before humanity supplanted them as masters of the land.

edit: also, few charr today would still sacrifice anybody to any god like they did to Althea.

@Zaxares
Historically all Charr were on the same page when it came to killing humans, it didn’t take any convincing from the Titan’s to blitz Ascalon. Using the Flame Legion as a scapegoat(and taking a lot of the blame away from ordinary Charr) was an invention of the GW2 writers.

@Dustfinger
True…but they would still burn her alive, if only for gits and shiggles. Some races just want to see the world burn…

The GW2 writers did establish that. But modern charr aren’t responsible for their ancestors actions.

Charr are ruthless to their enemies. They don’t just burn anyone for gits an giggles. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have human NPC’s getting the same protection in charr cities that charr get in charr cities. The charr don’t want to just see the world burn, they historically have had their niche at the top of the food chain. When two apex predators meet, they are going to fight it out. the same way the humans did to take Ascalon from the charr.

Dustfinger.9510:

The GW2 writers did establish that. But modern charr aren’t responsible for their ancestors actions.

I think that’s the important thing to keep in mind – for both current Charr haters and people who claim the Charr were ‘right’ in Guild Wars 1. The modern Charr weren’t responsible for their ancestors actions, just as the Ascalonians in Guild Wars 1 weren’t responsible for their ancestors actions (and thus did not deserve to be murdered in droves by the Charr). Trying to wipe out the modern Charr from Ascalon would be as morally wrong as the Charr trying to wipe out the humans in GW1.

Like it or not, the Charr are in Ascalon now – and a lot of modern Charr have shown that they are not as bloodthirsty as their ancestors. Now, if they try to take Ebonhawke again – war is justified, as they’d be the aggressors again. But I don’t think that’s going to happen. Already you can see many Charr individuals coming to respect humans, and vice versa, and gradually Charr culture is subtly changing. As much as I loved Ascalon in GW1, I’d rather see if the peace treaty can hold rather than starting up the cycle of war and genocide again.

And I just recently lost a debate about whether or not charr ceded land to Ebonhawke as part of the peace treaty. I figured they would never give up land they had fought thousands of years for but apparently they did. A-net is definately right when they describe Smodur as “forward thinking”.