Guild Wars 2

So… did Twilight Arbor today and Rytlok is right. He didnt step outside when a real warrior was there (Rytlok), and a few moments later put up a show and abandon his party, once again.

If I were a human, I’d reroll.

Thank you.

aw your looking at things all black and white like.

Rytlock and Logan are both immature, whiny babies.

I get the feeling I need to read Destiny’s Edge to full understand what’s happened as opposed to the quick rehash in the game, but Logan is boiling mykitten something chronic at the moment.

I can’t stand Logan nor Rytlock. Getting to kill their illusions in there made me happy though.

Do Citadel of Flame

I personally got a little insulted when I received the “Ascalon Catacomb’s Dungeon Invitation” and it mention Logan as my mentor. I was like “mentor? him?”. I am sorry but going through the human storyline, he just didn’t feel as mentor like as Zojja, Eir, Caithe (and Trehearne as well for the Sylvari) or Rythlock (although I only played Charr during Beta). Maybe its just me but Logan just doesn’t feel mature enough at any point in the game, especially since the human char seems to be more mature then my other characters. I don’t know…

Can’t stand logan, wish you could smack him. I think the children sketch taking the
kitten out of him on “stealing secrets” quest is accurate.

“I’m Logan Thackeray and I ran away….”

That book was a mistake, all it made me do was hate the main character in my storyline, it could have been handled so much better by a decent author.

Strange how people insist on focusing on Logan when a good portion of the members of Destiny’s Edge can quite readily be held accountable for their questionable actions as well. Is it really so unrealistic for someone to screw over their friends in order to protect someone they love? I’m pretty sure a lot of people would follow a similar route if they were put in that situation.

Then again, people these days seem to be allergic to flawed heroes.

Garenthal.1480:

Strange how people insist on focusing on Logan when a good portion of the members of Destiny’s Edge can quite readily be held accountable for their questionable actions as well. Is it really so unrealistic for someone to screw over their friends in order to protect someone they love? I’m pretty sure a lot of people would follow a similar route if they were put in that situation.

Then again, people these days seem to be allergic to flawed heroes.

its not so much the issue of him leaving, its that it was incredibly badly written to make logan seam like a totalkitten There was no conflict, no dilema, no build up, just logan off chasing skirt (or mesmerised, though thats been said no to by the devs). A decent author would have handeled it better and made it seam a hard choice we could have understood, even if we did not agree with. But no, Logan looks like ankitten and I have this urge to slap the screen everytime he appears.

Infact that author was a mistake all over for that book. It started ok, but obviously got away from them. The power of the heros kept ramping up to ridiculous levels, and it became dangerously close to farcical at some points. They obviously had to put the brakes on before one of the cahracters accidentally sneezed and wiped out half the population of the kryta. And the did it in an incredibly bad way.

Its not so much an issue with logans choice, its how that was portrayed, and that was a result of a pretty poor author writign the book.

Logan is clearly a flawed hero (although as pointed out, most people would chose the well being of a loved one over a friend… but the stakes in this case were obviously very high, which makes him look worse)… but lets not kid around here. They are all going on about the greater good, but now that Rytlock is a butthurt kitty, he’s being just as immature – “I refuse to work with this human to SAVE THE WORLD. I’m going to put my anger above the well being of the planet.”

Zojja seems even worse. I’m not quite sure (I haven’t read the books) why she blames Eir for what happened. The drama between those two characters seems incredibly forced.

Just saying, Rytlock is no better than Logan at this point. And Zojja just is a spoiled kid lashing out and trying to find someone to blame for a tragedy.

Didn’t like Logan from the trailer. Even after reading Destiny’s Edge I still didn’t like Logan. I understand Rytlock, he can be a good sport and a royal pain if you treat him bad. I liked Eir the most and then Snaff.

I play a human, mainly because of Dougal Keane from Ghosts of Ascalon.
Now that’s a a hero I like.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If the author wrote the Jennah X Logan romance story better then alot people wouldn’t have a problem with it. Heck we even needed an actual confirmation that the love between them is real from the author.

Arcturus.5846:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If the author wrote the Jennah X Logan romance story better then alot people wouldn’t have a problem with it. Heck we even needed an actual confirmation that the love between them is real from the author.

If you think about it, alot of hero made the same mistake. Batman from Dark Knight for example. He was about to sacrifise Harvey Dent (the savior of Gotham or whatever) to save Rachel.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If the author wrote the Jennah X Logan romance story better then alot people wouldn’t have a problem with it. Heck we even needed an actual confirmation that the love between them is real from the author.

If you think about it, alot of hero made the same mistake. Batman from Dark Knight for example. He was about to sacrifise Harvey Dent (the savior of Gotham or whatever) to save Rachel.

He didnt run away, he went to the Queens aid, there was no winning situation. If he had abandoned the Queen then all of kryta would hate him not just destiny’s edge

Chumsy.5714:

He didnt run away, he went to the Queens aid, there was no winning situation. If he had abandoned the Queen then all of kryta would hate him not just destiny’s edge

Also, Ebonhawke likely would have been wiped out and the queen killed because no other human there would have thought to free the charr prisoners to fight with them.

I didn’t really have a problem with what Logan did in EoD. It wasn’t like he ran off with his tail between his legs because he was scared. I don’t really get Logan and Jennah’s ‘love’, but he did vow to protect her and come when she called upon him. Wasn’t his fault her timing was so crappy.

Zojja doesn’t like Eir because Snaff died as a result of Eir allowing Logan to make the choice of leaving instead of forcing him to stay. Eir was the leader and Snaff died as a result of the decisions she made. Snaff was Zojja’s mentor, so you can imagine why she hates Eir so much.

SPOILERs from the books.

The one who save Ebonhawke was queen Jennah not Logan, he was going to die due to overwhelming dragon forces. She saved him by creating a Mesmer illusion of the Dragon. That made the minions go away. If not for her everybody would be dead, humans and freed Charr.

The ones who got the Humans and Charr to make a truce where queen Jenna and General Soulkeeper. You could say that Logan’s contribution was freeing the imprisoned Charr. But to him that was just the best thing to do at that moment. He did not really have anything to do with getting the Humans and Charr talking. If he didn’t need more men, he would just have let the Charr rot.

But if he stayed with Destinies Edge and Killed the Elder Dragon, wouldn’t that have been a more powerful message? But of course that was not to be, because you know, less content for the game itself. >.>

Honestly the member of destiny’s edge that irks me the most is Zoija. Her hatred of Eir is quite incredibly random, forced, and irrational.

Caithe is too depressed, Eir too I guess, but the two of them are both fairly mature about things.

Rytlock and Logan are both extremely egotistical and immature about handling their disagreement, which stems from I think their different cultures.

In human culture, you absolutely would go save a defenseless loved one and let a hardened amazing warrior who was a friend of yours take care of himself for a bit (as he is fully capable of doing so). Family comes first.

Logan’s action is even more necessary in that jennah wasn’t some random person but the guiding force behind the Charr/Ascalon treaty.

In Charr terms, Rytlock viewed that as betraying the warband, which actually IS their family. For them too, family comes first, but they define family differently.

Theres a point in the personal story ‘Light in the Darkness’ where you get a chance to see the emotions going on inside the different members of Destiny’s Edge and you can see how their own personal issues and pain is whats keeping them from making up.

In Logan’s case its struggling with guilt and denial. He doesnt know what he could have done better and feels that he would still make the same choice but feels terrible he failed his friends.

I can’t stand Logan…. I absolutely loved the part in the storyline when the kids in Lions Arch play the parts of each of the hero’s and the child that chooses Logan runs away.

Logan doesn’t come off pained or in grief but rather confused why no one see’s his point of view. Yes one would normally choose their loved one but when the choice is saving the world… a hero would not abandon the world.

In the end Logan isn’t a mentor he’s an embarrassment.

The problem is killing ONE elder dragon doesn’t save the world, and if the Charr and Humans go back to war, you can say good bye to any hopes of killing the rest of them.

I hated Logan for the longest time, and I’m blaming that on how awfully Edge of Destiny was written. Seriously, I can’t even.

If he wasn’t voiced by Troy Baker I don’t even know what I’d do

ARGH.

But I was okay with him after CoF.

Cameirus.8407:

its not so much the issue of him leaving, its that it was incredibly badly written to make logan seam like a totalkitten There was no conflict, no dilema, no build up, just logan off chasing skirt (or mesmerised, though thats been said no to by the devs). A decent author would have handeled it better and made it seam a hard choice we could have understood, even if we did not agree with.

This, a lot.
I really disliked Logan for this, but given some of the hints in the writing I figured it wasn’t a choice he wholly made under his own will. But since that seems to be debunked in postings and in his own dialogue in the game, I can’t say that I like the guy much. It was just this abrupt "Oh no we can do something amazing but like this person I think I love thanks to a handful of poorly written letters might be in danger I’d better go run off." I guess the author wanted to force him to confront his jerk brother again or something? GG to Jennah for strolling into a sieged city and presenting an amazingly high profile target, by the way. [Edit: I also wonder why the golems that seemed to be able to handle everything up until now failed to be enough to make up for one guy with a sword in their plan. I mean considering who was helping Destiny’s Edge...]
I mean, my human characters probably don’t have an actual in-game reason [yet] for this, but I find myself wanting to run off with Caithe or Rytlock instead of Logan.

He’s not too bad a guy to pal around with in the early story portions, but I would also agree with the sentiment that he never really comes off as "mentor" like everyone [read: all of the NPCs] seems to think.

But at least he’s not Josir. That guy is a tool.

Tower Guard.5263:

SPOILERs from the books.

The one who save Ebonhawke was queen Jennah not Logan, he was going to die due to overwhelming dragon forces. She saved him by creating a Mesmer illusion of the Dragon. That made the minions go away. If not for her everybody would be dead, humans and freed Charr.

I see this idea come up a lot, and it assumes that Jennah could have done so immediately.

Just because every spell we as players use has a casting time of seconds doesn’t mean that all magic works that way. Think of all the times in both Guild Wars games where a quest, mission, story step or event involves defending an NPC where they perform a ritual that causes some form of powerful magical effect – or where we interrupt someone else’s ritual. That’s what Logan and all his efforts did – kept the Branded away from Jennah long enough for her to perform the ritual that saved them all. If not for Logan and his actions, Jennah would have been dead halfway through, and Ebonhawke destroyed or, worse, turned into a Branded stronghold.

When it comes to the treaty, it was of course the various leaders that did most of the legwork – Jennah, Almorra, Malice, possibly Smodur as well – but keep in mind that before that event, Jennah was promising more Krytan support to Ebonhawke to escalate that war. The Dragonbrand opened eyes that humans and charr had bigger enemies, but Logan’s freeing of the prisoners ultimately showed that not only did they have bigger enemies, they could actually fight beside and respect one another when their backs were to the wall, without being exceptional individuals like Logan and Rytlock (especially keeping in mind that Rytlock was a bit of an outcast at the time). Others made the treaty actually happen, but that was the catalyst that got things started.

A-net is perfectly okay with everyone hating Logan. Even after all he’s done to redeem himself, the damage has been done. People will always see him as the guy who abandoned his comrades to his love interest.

draxynnic

Others made the treaty actually happen, but that was the catalyst that got things started.

Nope. Dougal and Ember did more for that, under Almorra’s suggestion than Rytlock and Logan ever could have.

Can I just, y’know, adopt Dougal Keane as my racial hero? Adept at his profession, when he ran it was for the right reasons, and when it came to a (secondary) love interest and even his own Ascalonian prejudice, he acted in the betterment of everyone rather than just himself.

Flawed, absolutely, but everything he did never left someone scratching their heads going “uhh… what?” like BFFs with a Charr by overcoming 250 years of racial hatred in only a page and a half… lolwut (not to mention the entirety of the Jenna storyline).

Zojja I get. She fits perfectly. Caithe, Eir, Rytlock, you can feel just how let down everyone is. Logan? His mad rush to save Jenna? He didn’t even reach her before her spell saved HIM. She was fine, and her body guards did a kitten good enough job holding off the seige. She needed help? She shouldn’t have been a prime target in a freaking WAR ZONE, that’s been stationed BEHIND enemy lines. Logan spends half the game blaming everyone else, because he’s got a fluffy kitten stuck up his butt that any/all of this (including Glint’s sacrifice being in vain) isn’t his fault, that he “did the right thing”, and telling everyone else to eff off? Yeah, no, gods be kitten he can get stabbed in the throat for all I care. Pompous twit.

The real catalyst for the peace was Logan releasing the charr prisoners. Any random charr/human pairing can be brushed off as the exception that proves the rule… otherwise we’d have started off the process of making peace with the post-revolution charr when we helped with the first steps of the revolution in EOTN. A company of random charr fighting side-by-side with tkittenon Vanguard and being the reason that Ebonhawke didn’t fall to the Branded there and then? That’s a sign that can’t simply be brushed off by saying “but they’re special.” That’s what told the leaders of both sides – especially Jennah – that charr and humans can and should fight side by side against the greater foe.

As for the idea that Jennah saved the siege single-handedly… Logan never got to Jennah until after the fight was concluded because he was busy making sure the fight didn’t get to her – thus giving her the time to save the day. When Logan arrived, the Branded were literally beating at the doors of the keep Jennah was in – without his first rallying the Vanguard and then bringing the charr into the fray, Jennah would have been dead within minutes of the time Logan did arrive.

If Logan had stayed, tkittenonhawke arc would probably have ended with the Branded getting to Jennah and killing her just before she finished her spell just as Logan leaving meant the Branded got to Snaff just in time to prevent Rytlock from landing that spear blow, and we’d all be hating Logan for all the fallout from Jennah dying. He really was in a no-win situation.

Blaming Logan for the death of one overglorified noble? Nah. She can burn for all I care. It’s so bizzare to see my character, who grew up in the streets, in poverty, witnessing all the darkness and crime taking place in the supposed “jewel” of humanity to become a loyal lapdog of the Queen.

One noble can’t be the thing that holds the Charr-Human alliance. It wouldn’t hold a full year if that was the case. Jennah is nothing, politicians are easy to replace.

It’s not just one noble. It’s the soldiers of tkittenon Vanguard – who’ve been on the front line of the human-charr war since the Foefire – that learned they can fight side by side with the charr against a common enemy. It’s also the charr that Logan released learning the same. It’s that one noble recognising the need to capitalise on this rather than letting it be a one-off. It’s that noble’s opposite counterparts seeing that this can happen, and that humans might actually make better and more reliable allies than the Flame Legion.

If Logan hadn’t returned, you remove all of these pillars that supported the treaty, and all your left with is one charr’s revelation after being made gladium by the Dragonrise – and I dare say that without the above, any efforts she could make regarding bringing about a charr-human treaty would have gone for naught. Especially given that Jennah’s logical replacement would be Caudecus, who to all appearances is against the treaty (although that may be just drumming up anti-Jennah sentiment).

At the bottom line, though, forming (if not necessarily holding, but keep in mind the ceasefire is still in its early stages and things could still fall apart again) an alliance can be something that can collapse from something as fragile as removing one charismatic individual that has the ability to get the majority of his or her people behind an idea. From our own history we should know never to underestimate the ability of one charismatic individual to change history for better or worse, and in fantasy settings this goes double.

I would have no problem with the whole “I ran off to save my love” thing if there WAS a thing! After reading the book I am left sitting here going, “how the heck do these two “love” each other?” I mean they meet up in the book like what 3 time, maybe 4? I would even be cool with the whole “love at first sight” thing if there was something to build from and go by.

I mean he meets the Queen the first time, then one other time when “sparing” with his brother, and like what, when he comes to try and I mean TRY to save her? Other then that it’s them talking in letters.

What bugs me more is that even if they did build something there, no way are they gonna let him, no matter how big a hero he becomes, marry the Queen. I feel like I am looking at Link and Zelda before Skyward Sword. I don’t even hate Jennah, but I have yet to see anything that should make him or me, bend over backwards if a leaf feel in her direction outside of “SHE IS MY QUEEN!”

But that is just me, I feel had they really made the two out to be lovers, then there would be no problem see Logan’s side.

The problem here is all you people are almost guaranteed to have grown up and lived in a democracy your entire lives. You don’t understand the mindset of somebody living under a true monarchy. Saying “She’s the Queen” is the only reason you need to go to great lengths for her. For them the Monarch is the Nation. They are the personification of your entire nation. The Queen is Kryta. Loyalty to your country comes before loyalty to your friends.

Besides loyalty to country Logan also has loyalty to his honour. He sworn an oath to protect the queen. He must honour that oath even it means choosing it over his friends.

Personally I’d would not be friends with somebody that held their oaths and honour in such cheep regard that they would abandon them.

and we’d all be hating Logan for all the fallout from Jennah dying. He really was in a no-win situation.

Uhh, no. We’d be hating Jennah for putting herself behind enemy lines in the middle of a seige. The conclusion of her death from a seige by someone NOT the Charr doesn’t resolve her consequences of being there, in a war zone.

And even after Kralkatorrik was up, the Charr and Humanity kept fighting at Ebonhawke. There was the desire, the need for peace, sure, but it wasn’t going to happen for those kittens. That’s why the newly created Vigil with Almorra brought Dougal and Ember together to get the Claw of the Khan-Ur.

Logan didn’t do peace. The Charr were fighting for survival and went back to trying to kill humans afterwards. Ebonhawke itself felt the exact same way, and despite the brand, despite the onslaught, the siege and the war continued until the treaty could be signed, which had less reason for the few Charr that Logan fought beside, and more because of pressure from Almorra as a sole survivor of her warband reaching cross-legion and cross-race.

You didn’t read Ghosts of Ascalon, did you?

I did… but I’m not sure you did as carefully as you might have. The events of Ghosts of Ascalon were basically fulfilling the last condition of negotiations for a ceasefire between Jennah and the imperators, secretly conducted with the Vigil as the go-between. Yes, there were four years of continued fighting in between, but ending a war that has literally continued for over a thousand years doesn’t happen overnight. Compared to our own history, that’s a war that outlasted the Roman Empire.

The events at Ebonhawke during the Dragonrise provided the spark. Jennah, Smodur, Malice and Almorra built on that. Ghosts of Ascalon was just the last stage in a long process, done at Jennah’s behest and on her behalf.

Almorra on her own could never have achieved peace. You need both sides to agree for that, and that means you need the leader on both sides to be amenable. You simply can’t disengage Jennah from the peace process as easily as you think, because whatever feats the Vigil might be able to pull to impress the Imperators, there’s still going to be war if the human leaders want to continue fighting.

Whoa, Jennah loves Logan back? Having only played GW2 with no book knowledge, I got the impression she was throwing him clearly in the friend zone and just taking advantage of his adoration to get some work done.