Guild Wars 2

So this is something I’ve noticed, and it seems rather unique to the Norn race in particular.

Size-wise, both genders in most races look proportionate to one another.
Humans, Asura, Charr and Sylvari male & females look the same race, but when you see a Norn male & female next to one another, it is almost as if you’re looking at two completely different races.

Is it just me, or is the size and proportion difference between male & female significantly more noticeable for the Norn in particular?

- Do Norn Males need to be scaled down?
- Do Norn Females need to be scaled up?

(I’m not talking about height, but broadness/grit/width, whichever you would use)

I just find myself distracted by this particular difference whenever I see a Norn character and can’t help but think of how hilariously disproportionate they are to one another, and often find myself joking about it :P

The Norn Male looks like its own race entirely, while the Norn Female simply looks like a taller human female.

We’d been kind of getting into that in this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/races/norn/Norn-female-is-too-pretty-Yeah-you-read-it-right

I’ve basically said that same thing you’ve said: the males are hulked out and look like their own thing, but the women look like regular ol’ humans (which i assume is because the devs expect women to fit a certain mold of female beauty that males aren’t required to since norns are essentially tall humans).

Yeah, I saw the title.

But I assumed it was on a separate topic, being their cuteness factor overall or pretty faces; not so much a discussion of how the male and female norn forms mesh with each other.
I only saw a limited number talk about the actual body, most seemed focused on the faces and cleanliness of the norn female, almost as if the thread contained two separate discussions :P

But personally, and back on topic; I’m not sure if I buy the argument that the Devs were going by the philosophy that every female had to look like a model, regardless of race.
The reason why I believe so is because we have both Charr and Asura that are both proof that the Devs don’t necessarily believe that all female characters must look like anorexic catwalk models, while we already have two other females looking more like models with humans; and to a lesser extent; the Sylvari.

I do give Anet kudos for female charr, and the female sylvari and asura are decent too, but at the same I do believe that human and norn women were deliberately forced into that stereotypical myopic “supermodel” look. There’s really no other explanation I can think of for why norn men are more than just really big humans while norn women are not (and for the face options for women from both species).

At any rate, let me too restate my wish that norn women had been designed to match the looks of their men.

SinerAthin.2374:

But personally, and back on topic; I’m not sure if I buy the argument that the Devs were going by the philosophy that every female had to look like a model, regardless of race.
The reason why I believe so is because we have both Charr and Asura that are both proof that the Devs don’t necessarily believe that all female characters must look like anorexic catwalk models, while we already have two other females looking more like models with humans; and to a lesser extent; the Sylvari.

Charrs are cats with clothes on and asura are funny little goblin things, so they never really had socially-defined expectations to fulfill there. Norns, on the other hand, are aesthetically large humans, and the drastic sexual dimorphism seen clearly shows the glaring double standard that echos throughout our culture and fantasy media when it comes to human genders. Hulk is allowed to be enormous, but She-Hulk must be as a close to a model as we can get with a touch of muscularity. It seems pretty obvious that the same rejection of physically powerful women is at play here.

Gonna drop some image links into this thread just for the heck of it.

First my four max-sized norn, two male and two female, backed against the same wall in Lion’s Arch so you can see their differences in height and build. There’s a whole head’s worth of height difference there; kind of annoying if you’re trying to make a really big lady norn.

Second an image I sketched up a while ago of some new norn physiques (three per gender) that I think would help ease the weird over-done sexual dimorphism just a bit (that and more variety in the character creator is always a good thing). The smallest of the “new” female physiques is actually already in the game on a whole lot of town-clothes NPCs. I think they at least ought to knuckle down and fit the armor to it so we can give it to our characters already.

Third, I think it could help to change the female norns’ idle/walk/run animations just a bit so their stance is less delicate and contrapposto and more wide, sturdy, and weight-bearing. (As a bonus, it might help with some clipping issues too.)

sarcasmosaur.8720:

Third, I think it could help to change the female norns’ idle/walk/run animations just a bit so their stance is less delicate and contrapposto and more wide, sturdy, and weight-bearing. (As a bonus, it might help with some clipping issues too.)

I thought they already had that? At least my Norn look alot more menacing with a staff, holding it on the side while having legs wide apart and chest puffed up, compared to say a human which looks like she’s about to start a poledance.

Scale the Norn males down. They are so ridiculously hideous. Look at a GW1 male Norn (no they aren’t pretty) then look at a GW2 Norn. The GW2 Norn are for some bizarre reason ridiculously disproportionate and ugly >.> KILL THEM WITH FIRE.

Nay! just scale the females up in some options like the males. I like my fairy tale giants. And besides, only the absolute biggest male option looks like the hulk. Norn males were disproportionate in other ways. they looked like giants dwarves.

Scaling males down seems…bizarre. There already are humans that are human proportioned. We don’t need 2 sets of redundant humans.

Norn’s are human-esque giants with the potential to shape shift werewolf style. They’re both massive compared to the average human, male or female.

Males have a greater body muscle/mass, females to a lesser degree. Norn women are still women. They’re similar to humans, and so, that’s nature.

That said, they are on a bigger scale. It is readily apparent when you compare an average human female and an average norn female; she’s a giant.

A norn female will often tower over the human male, let alone the human female.

Some people in that thread want norn women to look exactly proportionate to the male, and that’s just not natural given that norns are human like giants.

Males tend to be bigger then females in general. Fact.

Norn males are massive mighty men. On this exaggerated scale, norn women compare very well to their male counterpart. They’re giant mighty women.

That other thread (creeping into this thread now) is essentially people arguing (very) subjective tastes and issues of beauty.

In other words, it won’t be going anywhere ever.

From an objective point of view, norns are proportionate to one and other. They’re giantesque people and Anet did that well.

There isn’t a lot of variation but that’s a general problem, not a norn problem.

I personally don’t see that issue as anything game breaking. People are mad that GW2 doesn’t have a PSO2 style character creator.

GW2’s is better then most, and a huge leap from the first game.

And honestly if you look, you’ll see some people complaining that norn are too big. So, yeah. Fickle fanbase is fickle. Norn are awesome.

I guess I would like to see Norn females have more “bulk”. If you took a max size, max width version of the Human female and Norn female, they’d still share a relatively similar outline. In contrast, if you took the male versions and compared them with each other, it’s immediately obvious which one is the Norn.

Look what happened when they tried to make females un-cute and go see how many female dwarves you see in WoW.

Zaxares.5419:

I guess I would like to see Norn females have more “bulk”. If you took a max size, max width version of the Human female and Norn female, they’d still share a relatively similar outline. In contrast, if you took the male versions and compared them with each other, it’s immediately obvious which one is the Norn.

When you compare a human female and a norn female, it is ridiculously apparent which one is human and which one is a norn.

CETheLucid.3964:

When you compare a human female and a norn female, it is ridiculously apparent which one is human and which one is a norn.

One just looks like a taller human…. The problem is that when you have either female standing alone, they look completely human while a male norn is clearly norn based solely on bodily proportions.

I think the problem is that the image of norn is the hulk and out own perception of what a RL human can look like. Only one male body type is greater than a human will achieve. Just one. Meanwhile none of the female human bodies are near as muscular as the norn females. Even if Norn and humans were the same height, human females would be frail compared to norn females.

Paken Kai.5970:

it feels like I’m constantly trying to run through water. But it’s not enough to make me change my race.

Try this.

1. Activate Box-O-Fun
2. Trigger it until you get the “Giant Form”
3. Dodge Roll

The animation is really slooooowwww

*Note using the kite while in Giant Form will give you an even bigger Kite

panzer.6034:

The problem is that when you have either female standing alone, they look completely human while a male norn is clearly norn based solely on bodily proportions.

Okay, so, which female is a norn and which one is a human in that picture? Based on what?

CETheLucid.3964:

panzer.6034:

The problem is that when you have either female standing alone, they look completely human while a male norn is clearly norn based solely on bodily proportions.

Okay, so, which female is a norn and which one is a human in that picture? Based on what?

Because one of the “human” females is taller than the other “human” female. If they were both scaled to the same height and running around in an event, no one would have any clue they were different races. If you scaled a big body type male norn to the height of a male human, he looks different because he has massive proportions. There is nothing remotely like that separating the female norn and the female human like there is for the men and the difference gets even greater when you add bulky armor.

panzer’s right. Norn women have the option to be a bit stockier than human women, and that’s a small mercy at least, especially in the light of how painfully scrawny the humans are. But it’s not enough to make the norn women look like norn instead of tall humans. They should be thicker overall, broader in the shoulders in particular.

As panzer said, if you got a maximum height human female and a minimum height Norn female and put them next to each other, you’d likely be hard pressed to tell which was which unless you were very familiar with the available faces/hairstyles for each race.

Simple solution. make just one more giant body option for Norn females and there will be no doubt that they are the same species as the males since the controversy seems centered around that one male option.

I’ve had to look for tattoos to figure out if some lady is human or norn. My 2 copper.

Then again, with asura, I’ve had to really look at eyes/faces. Never had an asura say "Eyes up here." So, win/win. Ish. One dolphin fractal, I had a party member exclaim "YOU’RE FEMALE" before my toon put her armor back on.

Bookah.

panzer.6034:

Because one of the “human” females is taller than the other “human” female. If they were both scaled to the same height and running around in an event, no one would have any clue they were different races. If you scaled a big body type male norn to the height of a male human, he looks different because he has massive proportions. There is nothing remotely like that separating the female norn and the female human like there is for the men and the difference gets even greater when you add bulky armor.

You answered that exceedingly simple question like a true politician. Avoid the question, restate your tired argument.

If you can’t tell me which in that picture that I re-posted is a norn and which one is a human, you’re dense or you’re intentionally denying the obvious to argue.

To answer you in regards to the size scaling, humans and norns do not share the same slider scale.

The tallest female human is dwarfed by the tallest female norn, even with the bigger body type for the female human and the slimmer body type for the norn.

If you were to scale up a human female to norn size, she would look like a norn… as would any male human scaled to norn size.

The same is true of male norns being scaled to human proportions, with the exception of maybe that one body option.

And even then, they can feasibly pass as a human on steroids or something. Norn and humans are both hominids, we’re similar in appearance and biology.

As it stands, you cannot make a human like you can make a norn, or vice versa. The shortest norn option is a head or three taller then the tallest male human option.

Male norn are bigger still (males tend to be bigger then females with hominids) and can achieve hulk like proportions, as you demonstrated.

This doesn’t prove that norns are disproportionate to one and other.

Example: Tallest male hulkian norn, slightly taller then average female norn a bit shy of max height, an average height male human, and a taller then average human female are all in the same room together.

Tallest male hulkian norn is in a league of his own because he’s a norn. He’s massive. But guess who in this group won’t be confused for his short kids?

It would be the female norn.

She’s altogether bigger then and towers over the two humans and can at least meet the male norn to his upper body, just under his head at the neck or chest.

Male and female norn are relatively proportionate to each other. No one else comes close. They make the rest of us small. They’re exaggerated hominids, giantesque.

That’s by design and Anet did it very well. If you like your norn women fullfigured, there is a body type for it.

People don’t have to pick the slender body/rich bust type for their female norn… but they tend to do that.

CETheLucid.3964:

panzer.6034:

Because one of the “human” females is taller than the other “human” female. If they were both scaled to the same height and running around in an event, no one would have any clue they were different races. If you scaled a big body type male norn to the height of a male human, he looks different because he has massive proportions. There is nothing remotely like that separating the female norn and the female human like there is for the men and the difference gets even greater when you add bulky armor.

If you were to scale up a human female to norn size, she would look like a norn… as would any male human scaled to norn size.

Actually not. Scaled down norn (or scaled up human) will not look like a human (or norn), because of his proportions (distance between head and chest, wide shoulders etc), and that’s the point.

Garm.9750:

CETheLucid.3964:

panzer.6034:

Because one of the “human” females is taller than the other “human” female. If they were both scaled to the same height and running around in an event, no one would have any clue they were different races. If you scaled a big body type male norn to the height of a male human, he looks different because he has massive proportions. There is nothing remotely like that separating the female norn and the female human like there is for the men and the difference gets even greater when you add bulky armor.

If you were to scale up a human female to norn size, she would look like a norn… as would any male human scaled to norn size.

Actually not. Scaled down norn (or scaled up human) will not look like a human (or norn), because of his proportions (distance between head and chest, wide shoulders etc), and that’s the point.

Actually yes. You don’t have a point. Even panzer agrees they would look human scaled down.

You’re a pedant grasping at straws. Several Mr. Universe’s don’t look quite human by these standards, and yet there they are. Is that all you have?

Do you need to move the goal posts around some more or are you finished?

There could be a potential behind-the-scene story that would explain everything.

Norns are very strong people, surviving in the extreme cold and rough terrain. In order to prosper in these uneasy surroundings, there must be some kind of rite of passage where all the males have to roid up with natural herbs which increase the level of testosterone, which eventually leads to that massive body proportion.

I’m not sure if females are also allowed to participate in this practice, but even if they are, maybe this herb specifically works on male bodies due to their higher level of male hormones or something. Anyway, after this, they are finally acknowledged as true warriors with bigger awkward muscles.

Speaking out of my derriere… sorry. But it would make everything make sense!

It wouldn’t be all the males though, since only one male body type looks roided up.

CETheLucid.3964:

You answered that exceedingly simple question like a true politician. Avoid the question, restate your tired argument.

A direct answer is “like a true politician”? One is a norn because she’s taller. That’s it. She’s isn’t particularly more robust at all and, in armor + running around, you’d never know which is which if they were the same height in game.

The tallest female human is dwarfed by the tallest female norn, even with the bigger body type for the female human and the slimmer body type for the norn.

The female norn and the female human on average for body types is far and away closer in proportion that the male norn male human. This is as plain as day. The males can be hulks compared to their human counterparts and the females are only slightly broader in some aspects. There isn’t a shred of parity there and if you can’t admit this then “you’re dense or you’re intentionally denying the obvious to argue.”

If you were to scale up a human female to norn size, she would look like a norn… as would any male human scaled to norn size.

You’re half right. You can easily make a taller human female look like a norn female but never in a million years is a male human going to pass as the hulk (of which there is completely zero female analog).

Tallest male hulkian norn is in a league of his own because he’s a norn. He’s massive. But guess who in this group won’t be confused for his short kids?

It would be the female norn.

“He’s in a league of his own”
You’re proving my point.

You’re arguing that if you had a school bus, an SUV and 2 compact cars, that the school bus and SUV aren’t disproportionate to each other because the SUV is bigger than a compact cars.

She’s altogether bigger then and towers over the two humans and can at least meet the male norn to his upper body, just under his head at the neck or chest.

Male and female norn are relatively proportionate to each other. No one else comes close. They make the rest of us small. They’re exaggerated hominids, giantesque.

Your whole example says nothing about them being proportionate to each other, it just says that they are both taller than a human. Shaq and a t-rex both tower over an average human, but it doesn’t mean they are in the same league as far as size.

Kind of pulling back towards the original topic, and less on this human v. norn track, males and females of a species aren’t always (in fact more often are not) very similar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism

In terms of bulkiness:
I don’t want to look like an upscaled human, but I also don’t like the majority of male builds, and only ever use the thinnest one. Most of them don’t even look remotely realistic, and when you put armor on them, it’s a cartoonish nightmare. I loved the Norn in GW1, and I think they should have stayed a bit truer to their concept art on the matter.

panzer.6034:

You’re half right. You can easily make a taller human female look like a norn female but never in a million years is a male human going to pass as the hulk (of which there is completely zero female analog).

No, I’m 100% right. :3

They’re proportionate. Norns, male or female, in general are in a league of their own.

The very tallest bulkiest human female can barely compete with the shortest, thinnest norn female.

The tallest female norn is all together stockier and makes a wimp out of the tallest human female.

She’s not even a head shorter then the tallest bulkiest hulkiest male norn.

Sized down, male and female norn can pass for human. Your complaint hinges on one ultra bulky hulkian option for male norns, and even this one isn’t unbelievable.

He’s a norn. Sized down he would pass for a roid’ using human maybe, but he’s not covered in fur and horns (ATM, lest he transforms XD).

He would still be believably human-esque. You want a ridiculous proportion for female norn, I get it. Maybe the devs will humor you. :)

Well, other than the shoulder width, the tallest, bulkiest female Human looks strikingly similar to the shortest, thinnest female Norn. I’d have a hard time telling them apart at a glance, unless one was wearing racial armour or had a race-specific feature, such as Norn tattoos.

CETheLucid.3964:

No, I’m 100% right.

They’re proportionate. Norns, male or female, in general are in a league of their own.

Once again, you’re saying that an SUV (norn female) is proportionate to a school bus (norn male) because both vehicles are larger than a compact car (all humans). If you’re going to claim with a straight face that a female norn is proportionate to a male when clearly they are the most sexually dimorphic race in the game then…well, we’re just going to keep talking in circles.

These 2 are clearly the least proportionate genders in the game, and this male isn’t even max height:

DrProfessor.9234:

Kind of pulling back towards the original topic, and less on this human v. norn track, males and females of a species aren’t always (in fact more often are not) very similar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism

I was just about to post this.

They may physically seem a bit different but then again look at how the are behavior wise. they have almost no gender roles in their society.
That to me is amazing.