GW2 Support Troubling Issue Response

GW2 Support Troubling Issue Response

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

Hiya. I’m a pretty big proponent of GW2 support and most of the times I’ve had things happen I report the issue or whatever and I feel like I get a really good response, like maybe they actually read what was going on, and so forth. Recently, though, I opened a ticket for getting kicked from a dungeon group at the boss to report the people who did it to me, and the responses were really abysmal. First response was as follows:

“I am sorry to learn of the issue you and your party encountered during your recent dungeon run. I certainly understand how frustrating this can be, especially when you have spent quite a bit of time in the dungeon.

Our development team frequently reviews issues related to the game, including potential issues with dungeons. In the past, they have made a few changes to dungeon mechanics and they will continue to make adjustments as necessary to resolve issues."

This was completely unrelated to why I submitted the ticket, so I replied by noting that this was, once again, a violation that I was reporting. I got a reply that I think confirms that it actually got sent to someone who can investigate the report, but then I got what felt like a super canned response that indicated that I should have just used the in-game report feature instead. It seems as though the GM didn’t understand that when you are kicked out of a group in the middle of a dungeon you can’t select anyone from the run to report them, and furthermore didn’t seem to realize that “griefing” isn’t even an option in the report window.

I really just wanted to make sure that it got forwarded to the appropriate people, but I don’t feel secure from the responses that it is getting there even though I’m being as explicit as possible. Is there any way to confirm that it’s getting to the right people (I know you don’t discuss what happens with reports with players)? Furthermore, maybe this ticket can be used as an example of poor issue handling; I think the GM could have done a much better job communicating what he was doing… if anything at all. I honestly can’t tell and it worries me.

Anyway, thanks.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: mercury ranique.2170

mercury ranique.2170

Ok, lots of stuff going on.
first off all
Kicking someone from a dungeon group is not an action that is automatically an illegal action. as far as I know only one rule is involved: ‘While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game.’
This is from the rules of conduct.

This actually protects both you and the people who kicked you.
There are two interests important here.
1: If you join a group with one or more people you don’t know and kick them, you make the game less enjoyable for the person who is kicked. (in other words, it is totally annoying when you get kicked and a bad experience).
2: the other side however is that you are forced to respect the right of others to play and enjoy the game. So if your company turns out to be not enjoyable (to the other’s side judgement) they do have the right to kick you.

In the situation off a dungeon kick it is all in the details and how far in you are. I know and I disaprove that some people kick at the final boss jsut to let a noob guildmember in, but from a GM point of view to verify the motives, the kick and invite of a guildmember is not enough. You are (I reckon) stating that your performance is up to level and a GM has to make judgement if it was. That is an impossible judgement to make from a GM who has to be independant and above the party’s.

So bottom line, in most cases the GM’s truly understand your issue and troubles but it is not to them to judge.

When a dungeon party kicks someone, this is cause they are not enjoying your company and after that you are not enjoying the experience as well. I totally understand that. But rule one of the rules of conduct is bout giving freedom to enjoy the game. so forcing someone to play with you is a breach as well. The only way is to proof that you where kicked, not cause they disliked you, but cause they wanted a guildmember in.

Keep in mind that it is common practise if you have a gap in the party halfway a dungeon to first ask for guildmembers, often on voip communication.

So, although I agree in most cases it is very clear that it is done on purpose, it is extremely hard to prove that.

Bottom line: it stinks to be kicked out of a dungeon but support can’t do a lot bout it.

Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

While I appreciate your interpretation of the situation, it is neither you nor my position in the matter that makes a difference. ANet has chat logs, they have logs of the entire thing, and they can investigate. My only concern is that it actually gets where it needs to get, and that the GM in question actually did something. It appears to me that he maybe cast it off and didn’t do that in favor of an unrelated canned response.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: tolunart.2095

tolunart.2095

I think that most CS agents don’t play the game, it’s just their job. While devs need to understand the game they work on and play it as part of their job, the CS agents mostly interact with the game logs and such when investigating reports, and don’t necessarily take a character into the game and play it.

So many CS agents don’t know much about how things work in the game, other than what their experience with investigations and training sessions have shown them. Therefore it’s not surprising that they wouldn’t know specific details of difficulties in reporting player misconduct in dungeons, or know about the tendencies of some players to sell spots/invite guildies in the dungeon groups.

Not sure what we, as players, can do about it. You can explain the situation as specifically and thoroughly as possible, but if the CS agent doesn’t understand what you are trying to say there isn’t a lot you can do about it. It’s up to their managers to educate CS agents as much as possible about how the game works and what can be done about specific situations, but the individual CS agent’s knowledge, motivation and experience will vary.

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

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You’re right, those are not satisfactory answers. If I had a ticket number ~hint, hint~ I would be able to counsel the agent on giving better responses.

But let’s talk about the situation in general:

“Griefing” is a very, very subjective term. And establishing that griefing took place can be nearly impossible. It’s not as easy as looking for chat records, since a lot of planning and plotting takes place outside the group through Vent or other chat programs. It’s not as easy as taking the word of someone who was booted from a group, because there are different ways of viewing that situation. For example (an edge case, to be sure) I remember a ticket from an irate player who wrote, “I want you to ban the people in my group. Here’s a screenshot with all their names. I told them I had a phone call and they just kicked me out of the group after 10 minutes!” Yeaahhhh, don’t think we can help you there, friend.

What I’d like to suggest is “the devil is in the details.” Give us the day, time, time zone, world, the names of as many of those involved as you can provide and a detailed description of what took place. Unfortunately, we can’t look at some sort of magical recording of your account in the game at the reported time in order to review what happened. We can’t look at your account and see the names of the others in your party at XX time in YY Dungeon. We need a description and the details I’ve suggested above and we can try to verify what happened. We dislike griefing intensely, so once verified, have no worries, we will take action on griefers — it’s just getting to a point of positive verification that poses a challenge.

Lastly, I just spoke with some key team members about this situation today. We’re actively looking at a better way of handling support tickets about griefing. Continue to submit tickets, provide the requested details, and we’ll do our best to suspend griefers or, in the case of what I call “Serial Griefing,” to terminate their accounts.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

(edited by Gaile Gray.6029)

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Posted by: mercury ranique.2170

mercury ranique.2170

Gaile, thank you for a great response.
I have been thinking bout this issue a lot as well and how the really bad issues where avoided in GW1 (and prolly still are). In GW1 party’s where formed in towns or outposts and if you wanted to PUG almost always in AED (American english district). If someone was griefing in any way, word spreaded quick in the town or outpost that was used as the staging area and the community corrected it. I think that is still the best way to do it.

But in GW2, people can use the lfg system, misbehave and then hide in the shadows of they’re homeserver.

I know harashment is not allowed in the game or the forum, but one way of correction by the community might be to have a heavy controlled place (within or outside of control of Arenanet, but maintained by the community) where the name and shame can be done for the worsekind of people (the top 1% of griefers should allready be enough).

Another way might be a discredit system like in PvP. If you kick someone you get some points (maybe more if you are further into a dungeon), if you get too many points you are not allowed to use LFG for an amount of time. I consider myself pretty patient and friendly to other players. I have no issue to explain things and give people new to things all the time they need. But if I fail to explain the obvious and a player stands in the way of a succesfull I will kick that player. And I also understand that some people do not have that patience. With a dishonest system on kicking people you would promote pug’s and helping eachother, and still offer a good way for people to play with who they want.

Just my two cents, ignore me if you think im crazy (I am) :P

Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

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Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

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I don’t think you’re crazy at all, mr. I think you should post these suggestions in the PvP forums, because I’d never thought of the idea of a discredit system, and it might be worth a dev’s consideration. I can say that sometimes those systems can also be “griefed,” so there’s risk in implementing such a thing.

Basically, do share your suggestions, ok?

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

(edited by Gaile Gray.6029)

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

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Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

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And Rising Dusk, I’m on "quality"issues today like a frog on a toadstool! (A bee on a flower?) Anyway, if you can give me your ticket number, I want to take a look at your ticket and get agents on board with better, more accurate responses.

Thanks!

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Except a discredit system for kicking in groups for dungeons would not work based on the ability for everyone in the region to join any group without care that is posted. It would be unfair to a group to get discredited for kicking a low level after asking for an 80, same for any other requirements that a group desires.

Also, if a person disconnects, should a group have to wait 15 minutes for the person to be auto kicked in order to get a new player? That’s absurd.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

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Gaile Gray

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Except a discredit system for kicking in groups for dungeons would not work based on the ability for everyone in the region to join any group without care that is posted. It would be unfair to a group to get discredited for kicking a low level after asking for an 80, same for any other requirements that a group desires.

Also, if a person disconnects, should a group have to wait 15 minutes for the person to be auto kicked in order to get a new player? That’s absurd.

This is a suitable addition/response to the suggestion thread that mr may post in the forums. It’s a bit off topic of the subject at hand here in Account Issues Sub-forum.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Except a discredit system for kicking in groups for dungeons would not work based on the ability for everyone in the region to join any group without care that is posted. It would be unfair to a group to get discredited for kicking a low level after asking for an 80, same for any other requirements that a group desires.

Also, if a person disconnects, should a group have to wait 15 minutes for the person to be auto kicked in order to get a new player? That’s absurd.

This is a suitable addition/response to the suggestion thread that mr may post in the forums. It’s a bit off topic of the subject at hand here in Account Issues Sub-forum.

Figured that since that topic was not posted by mercury ATM I would say my piece. I think it is dangerous to have developers be fed these notions without discussing the complete picture.

Anyway, if Mercury posts it I will certainly respond to their thread.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

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Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

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Except a discredit system for kicking in groups for dungeons would not work based on the ability for everyone in the region to join any group without care that is posted. It would be unfair to a group to get discredited for kicking a low level after asking for an 80, same for any other requirements that a group desires.

Also, if a person disconnects, should a group have to wait 15 minutes for the person to be auto kicked in order to get a new player? That’s absurd.

This is a suitable addition/response to the suggestion thread that mr may post in the forums. It’s a bit off topic of the subject at hand here in Account Issues Sub-forum.

Figured that since that topic was not posted by mercury ATM I would say my piece. I think it is dangerous to have developers be fed these notions without discussing the complete picture.

Anyway, if Mercury posts it I will certainly respond to their thread.

Thank you, I’m sure your input will be appreciated!

And please keep in mind, no idea is implemented without careful review and much discussion by a team of developers. So all aspects will be reviewed, for sure.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

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Posted by: eleshazar.6902

eleshazar.6902

Just my two coppers on this topic since I had an interesting experience related to this just a few days ago (and for all I know the OP is the one that was in my party). I just think that there are two sides to every issue ;-)

I was running HoTW p1 with 3 of my guildies, and we PUGed for the last spot. We got an elementalist who from the very beginning of the run complained about “guardian low dps”, “four guards is making this take forever”, “your guys’ builds are nothing compared to the dps I’m dealing”. This person even stood back at one point when it was him and I attacking an enemy and said “See without me you are doing nothing” (which wasn’t the case since I’m actually high dps, but regardless..). Then I will admit I did the same thing to him on another enemy trying to prove that anyone’s dps looks low when attacking an elite alone.

Once we got to the end boss the ele was still griefing and complaining, and then when they died I made the curt remark “How much dps does a dead toon deal?” (admittedly I shouldn’t have made this remark, and it was rude of me). The ele then freaked out and started cursing and challenging me to a 1v1 anytime and called me a noob and many other obscene things. At this point two of my guildies who had also had enough of him kicked him from the party before I even knew what happened. (We even knew this person had opened and were willing to rerun the dungeon so as not to have to deal with him a moment longer. Ironically with just the four of us we finished just as quickly….)

My point here isn’t to say that we did the right thing and he did the wrong thing (indeed I shouldn’t have made some of my curt responses further aggravating the situation, although I never insulted or name called). I just want to point out that the common story of “They kicked me to make room for a friend” is oftentimes not the case. In griefing incidents there are often two sides to the story. Which, incidentally, I think is the point that Gaile is trying to make here to the OP.

All professions level 80| Champion Paragon, Phantom, Genius
Phoenix Ascendant [ASH] | Rank 80

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

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Gaile Gray

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Yes, that’s exactly right, eleshazar. Thanks for sharing a story that clearly shows how challenging it is to resolve these issues to everyone’s satisfaction, when, again, the matter of “griefing” can be so subjective!

Again, we’re going to see if we can improve the manner in which we are able to review and potentially resolve such issues. It won’t be “New Flash: Griefers Gone from GW2!” but we’ll see if we can’t remove more of the true griefers — for the greater good!

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

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Posted by: mercury ranique.2170

mercury ranique.2170

I didnt do HotW in a few months actually, so I amcertain I wasn’t involved.

As Gaile asked, I will start the topic. very likely tomorrow (well today my time but after I had sometime to think bout it). Just bare with me. Considering the delicate subject… (there is a thin line between ‘name and shame’ and harashment, as some has pointed out) I want to take time to make an easy to read (short) topic that is also to the point and taking both sides of the balance into mind.

The main issue is that Harashment (false reports) should be filtered outin any way while the people who are doing bad and hide in the shadows are exposed and are NOT marked as bad people, but just excluded from party’s for some time. I do believe it is in the numbers (how much wrong doings and how long excluded is making an accaptable split between good and bad?).

As said. I am going to try and make a good proposal in the dungeons forum (and not the pvp-forum as Gaile recommended, I think that was a small typo). But pls bear with me. This topic is complicated.

Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

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Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

~snip~

I want to take time to make an easy to read (short) topic that is also to the point and taking both sides of the balance into mind.

Excellent plan. I see the best ideas get bogged down in 42 pages, when a couple of paragraphs — well-thought — can really lay out the idea very well.

As said. I am going to try and make a good proposal in the dungeons forum (and not the pvp-forum as Gaile recommended, I think that was a small typo).

Typo? Moi? No wai! Yes, the Dungeons Sub-Forum is the perfect spot.

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

I didnt do HotW in a few months actually, so I amcertain I wasn’t involved.

As Gaile asked, I will start the topic. very likely tomorrow (well today my time but after I had sometime to think bout it). Just bare with me. Considering the delicate subject… (there is a thin line between ‘name and shame’ and harashment, as some has pointed out) I want to take time to make an easy to read (short) topic that is also to the point and taking both sides of the balance into mind.

The main issue is that Harashment (false reports) should be filtered outin any way while the people who are doing bad and hide in the shadows are exposed and are NOT marked as bad people, but just excluded from party’s for some time. I do believe it is in the numbers (how much wrong doings and how long excluded is making an accaptable split between good and bad?).

As said. I am going to try and make a good proposal in the dungeons forum (and not the pvp-forum as Gaile recommended, I think that was a small typo). But pls bear with me. This topic is complicated.

I agree that it belongs in the dungeon forum. As a regular there, I’ll just ask that you not take any snarky or non constructive posts seriously or personally, things have been pretty heated up in there, so it’s been hard to listen or stay positive.

I look forward to the thread.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: rfdarko.4639

rfdarko.4639

Maybe this is not the right topic, but its a problem I’ve encountered recently.

Me and a friend were in arah P4, and opened up on the LFG towards the end. We waited around for a few minutes, then filled with 2. A 3rd requested to join and one of the two let him in. Within seconds, my friend who started the instance was kicked. To me this a textbook case of greifing – an hour + of work down the drain, but I couldn’t think of any means of recourse. It all happened within 10 seconds, I didn’t have time to look at any of the names and they’re was not chat log. I could submit a ticket but what could I say? I had no name to go on, just that we were kicked from our own party at the end boss of p4 within a matter of seconds.

Is there anything I can do in a situation like this, in terms of reporting the offense?

guildless hobo who likes to solo – [x]

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Posted by: mercury ranique.2170

mercury ranique.2170

Yes you can report it, if you know the time and date of the offense. But keep in mind it is extremely hard for support to judge in these matters. It often goes down the block where they have to judge if someone was a good player or not. Also they have to keep in mind that outside communication is used. So kicking without any communication might be cause of use of TS/Vent/raidcall/skype.

Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!

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Posted by: mercury ranique.2170

mercury ranique.2170

As promised I made a post in the dungeons’s part of the forum:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/dishonour-system-when-you-kick-someone/first#post3570713

I made it as short as I think was possible :P

Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!