Guild Wars 2

EDIT:
This is a list of the skills that I know deal damage to endure pain:

• Vampiric aura
• Vampiric strikes
• Vampiric Rituals
• Leeching venoms (Thief)
• Retaliation
• Enchanted Daggers (Revenant) This particular skill deals too much damage that it renders endure pain useless.

This is the reason why warriors are so easily melted in WvW serg fights, because the whole serg is draining warrior’s health even when endure pain is active. If you have ever experience the “WTF why did I die? I had endure pain activated.” Now know why!

If you know of any other skill that deals damage to endure pain please post.

Lifesteal isn’t a physical attack.

Ayrilana.1396:

Lifesteal isn’t a physical attack.

Life steal is not a condition and shows on the game logs as direct damage.
On a WvW serg fight, warrior is usually melted easily because of bugs like this.
Have you even experienced that moment when you use endure pain and you are like “WTF? why did I die? I had endure pain and berserker stance and boons were not corrupted.”

Well, now you know, the whole serg is draining out warrior’s health even when endure pain is active. This needs a fix!

On a 1 vs 1 fight this does not matter because the damage is small, but on serg fights it does matter because you have 30+ players and all of them with vampiric presence necros.

Hitman.5829:

Ayrilana.1396:

Lifesteal isn’t a physical attack.

Life steal is not a condition and shows on the game logs as direct damage.
On a WvW serg fight, warrior is usually melted easily because of bugs like this.
Have you even experienced that moment when you use endure pain and you are like “WTF? why did I die? I had endure pain and berserker stance and boons were not corrupted.”

Well, now you know, the whole serg is draining out warrior’s health even when endure pain is active. This needs a fix!

On a 1 vs 1 fight this does not matter because the damage is small, but on serg fights it does matter because you have 30+ players and all of them with vampiric presence necros.

It’s still not a physical attack. It doesn’t have to fit in one or the other group. GW1 had physical and elemental damage but had other skills which didn’t fall under either of those types.

Endure Pain: Take no damage from attacks. You are still susceptible to conditions and crowd control effects.

• [quote]Vampiric Aura: Siphon health when you hit. [/quote]
• [quote]Vampiric Rituals: Wells siphon health every time they pulse and grant protection to allies when cast. Reduces recharge of wells.[/quote]
• [quote]Vampiric: Siphon health whenever you hit a foe. Minions siphon health and transfer it to you. [/quote]

The question, therefore, is whether “siphoning health” counts as “direct” damage or not. If the game only considers two types, “direct” and “indirect,” then the OP would be correct that vampiric “should not” count.

The wiki only mentions three damage types: direct, indirect, and falling. Incidentally, the “physical attack” argument is weak in my opinion: the skill says nothing about being immune to “physical attacks”, only about “attacks” — the only question (to me) is whether siphoning is considered an attack or not.

However, ANet is notoriously inconsistent about such distinctions — there are plenty of projectile-like attacks that aren’t affected by projectile blocking/reflecting … and plenty of non-projectile attacks that are.

tl;dr the OP has a good point and it’s worth waiting to hear from ANet.
(Personally, I think it could go either way.)

It’s still not a physical attack. It doesn’t have to fit in one or the other group. GW1 had physical and elemental damage but had other skills which didn’t fall under either of those types.

The description on endure pain is very clear. “You take NO damage from attacks, you are SUSCEPTIBLE to conditions and control effects.”

What else do you want? the description is crystal clear! You take no damage from attacks, any attacks; the damage should come from conditions only!

Hitman.5829:

It’s still not a physical attack. It doesn’t have to fit in one or the other group. GW1 had physical and elemental damage but had other skills which didn’t fall under either of those types.

The description on endure pain is very clear. “You take NO damage from attacks, you are SUSCEPTIBLE to conditions and control effects.”

What else do you want? the description is crystal clear! You take no damage from attacks, any attacks; the damage should come from conditions only!

It’s ambiguous, as I explained above. Health siphoning need not be considered as an ‘attack’.

It was a good idea to post about it; now sit back and wait for ANet to decide — it doesn’t matter if any of us agree or not.

Hitman.5829:

It’s still not a physical attack. It doesn’t have to fit in one or the other group. GW1 had physical and elemental damage but had other skills which didn’t fall under either of those types.

The description on endure pain is very clear. “You take NO damage from attacks, you are SUSCEPTIBLE to conditions and control effects.”

What else do you want? the description is crystal clear! You take no damage from attacks, any attacks; the damage should come from conditions only!

Again, you’re assuming that lifesteal type attacks fall as either which I had pointed out that GW1 has had skills that fell outside the two main types.

You may or may not receive a response from Anet. It’s been brought up several times since the game launched with no response that I’m aware of otherwise I would have linked it. If it was unintended, do you think Anet would have left it like this for so long? They’ve made changes for less.

Ayrilana.1396:

Hitman.5829:

It’s still not a physical attack. It doesn’t have to fit in one or the other group. GW1 had physical and elemental damage but had other skills which didn’t fall under either of those types.

The description on endure pain is very clear. “You take NO damage from attacks, you are SUSCEPTIBLE to conditions and control effects.”

What else do you want? the description is crystal clear! You take no damage from attacks, any attacks; the damage should come from conditions only!

Again, you’re assuming that lifesteal type attacks fall as either which I had pointed out that GW1 has had skills that fell outside the two main types.

You may or may not receive a response from Anet. It’s been brought up several times since the game launched with no response that I’m aware of otherwise I would have linked it. If it was unintended, do you think Anet would have left it like this for so long? They’ve made changes for less.

Anet is know for being lazy, there are bugs that have been around since launch day and they are still present. Take for example elementalist scepter AIR #2 and #3 those skills can be thrown back while running and they have not fixed them yet. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Fix-bug-Casting-spells-behind-while-running/first#post6569252

Or the most recent bug https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Bug-Sigil-of-Bounty

They have had several patches and the bug has not been fixed yet.

Endure pain is bugged and that is it, end of discussion. Anet does not respond and does not fix it because they are lazy, if they cannot fix a simple bug like sigil of bounty imagine fixing bugs like endure pain, but anyway just bringing that to the public’s attention.

Hitman.5829:

Ayrilana.1396:

Hitman.5829:

It’s still not a physical attack. It doesn’t have to fit in one or the other group. GW1 had physical and elemental damage but had other skills which didn’t fall under either of those types.

The description on endure pain is very clear. “You take NO damage from attacks, you are SUSCEPTIBLE to conditions and control effects.”

What else do you want? the description is crystal clear! You take no damage from attacks, any attacks; the damage should come from conditions only!

Again, you’re assuming that lifesteal type attacks fall as either which I had pointed out that GW1 has had skills that fell outside the two main types.

You may or may not receive a response from Anet. It’s been brought up several times since the game launched with no response that I’m aware of otherwise I would have linked it. If it was unintended, do you think Anet would have left it like this for so long? They’ve made changes for less.

Anet is know for being lazy, there are bugs that have been around since launch day and they are still present. Take for example elementalist scepter AIR #2 and #3 those skills can be thrown back while running and they have not fixed them yet. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Fix-bug-Casting-spells-behind-while-running/first#post6569252

Or the most recent bug https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Bug-Sigil-of-Bounty

They have had several patches and the bug has not been fixed yet.

Endure pain is bugged and that is it, end of discussion. Anet does not respond and does not fix it because they are lazy, if they cannot fix a simple bug like sigil of bounty imagine fixing bugs like endure pain, but anyway just bringing that to the public’s attention.

That’s different than categorizing a skill’s damage.

Something isn’t bugged because you say so. With how long long it’s been in the game, and how they had similar skills behave as such in GW1, it’s more than likely intended.

Oh, and of all the skills you listed in that link, none of them are projectiles like impale.

That’s different than categorizing a skill’s damage.

Something isn’t bugged because you say so. With how long long it’s been in the game, and how they had similar skills behave as such in GW1, it’s more than likely intended.

Oh, and of all the skills you listed in that link, none of them are projectiles like impale.

It is a bug because it is not doing what it says in the description as simple as that.

• Hammer Shock is not a projectile yet you cannot hit enemies behind you while running, so your argument is invalid.

Hitman.5829:

That’s different than categorizing a skill’s damage.

Something isn’t bugged because you say so. With how long long it’s been in the game, and how they had similar skills behave as such in GW1, it’s more than likely intended.

Oh, and of all the skills you listed in that link, none of them are projectiles like impale.

It is a bug because it is not doing what it says in the description as simple as that.

• Hammer Shock is not a projectile yet you cannot hit enemies behind you while running, so your argument is invalid.

So descriptions should be incredibly detailed to include everything otherwise omissions are seen as bugged?

Hammer shock is a conic attack in front of the player. And just so this doesn’t go back and forth listing skills, there isn’t just one thing that determines whether a skill shouldn’t be used from behind a player. Projectiles is of course one but it can include skills designed to only trigger in front of the player.

So descriptions should be incredibly detailed to include everything otherwise omissions are seen as bugged?

Hammer shock is a conic attack in front of the player. And just so this doesn’t go back and forth listing skills, there isn’t just one thing that determines whether a skill shouldn’t be used from behind a player. Projectiles is of course one but it can include skills designed to only trigger in front of the player.

You just don’t like warrior do you? I have seen skills with 7 times much more description than endure pain. Tell me how hard it is to say “you are susceptible to conditions, indirect damage and control effects.”

And since you like to find an excuse to everything please explain to us why guardian bow skill #3 can be thrown back? Please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom know it all lord.

Hitman.5829:

So descriptions should be incredibly detailed to include everything otherwise omissions are seen as bugged?

Hammer shock is a conic attack in front of the player. And just so this doesn’t go back and forth listing skills, there isn’t just one thing that determines whether a skill shouldn’t be used from behind a player. Projectiles is of course one but it can include skills designed to only trigger in front of the player.

You just don’t like warrior do you? I have seen skills with 7 times much more description than endure pain. Tell me how hard it is to say “you are susceptible to conditions, indirect damage and control effects.”

And since you like to find an excuse to everything please explain to us why guardian bow skill #3 can be thrown back? Please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom know it all lord.

I like warrior and have had one at level 80 for years. Just because I disagree with you that something is a bug, doesn’t mean that I dislike the class. They could add more but then it could become a slippery slope as the next person could use the same argument.

“Life stealing is the act of draining an amount of health from an enemy (thereby damaging them) and healing yourself with it.”

Just because it deals damage doesn’t mean it counts as an attack. And Endure Pain looks after things that attacks, after which it prevents the damage from those sources.

“Each life steal deals a specific amount of damage ignoring armor.”

This is probably one of the reasons it ignores the invulnerability of Endure Pain and doesn’t have to be a bug just because Endure Pain doesn’t specifically state that you can take damage from leeching.

Hitman.5829:

It is a bug because it is not doing what it says in the description as simple as that.

“Take no damage from attacks”. Some things to consider: when you take falling damage, did the ground attack you? When you strike a player with retaliation and take retaliation damage, did that other player attack you with retaliation? If a phantasmal defender takes transfer damage, did it get attacked by whoever damaged the transfer source? “You are still susceptible to conditions and crowd control effects” doesn’t mean everything else is categorized as an attack, it just tells you that you can still get CC’d and take damage from conditions.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The wiki only mentions three damage types: direct, indirect, and falling. Incidentally, the “physical attack” argument is weak in my opinion: the skill says nothing about being immune to “physical attacks”, only about “attacks” — the only question (to me) is whether siphoning is considered an attack or not.

However, ANet is notoriously inconsistent about such distinctions — there are plenty of projectile-like attacks that aren’t affected by projectile blocking/reflecting … and plenty of non-projectile attacks that are.

From what I know after many many hours of reverse engineering, the engine doesn’t have a notion of direct vs indirect vs falling. It looks more like ‘strike’ and not ‘strike’. ‘Missile’ refers to it’s own object (eg. can have ’effect’s applied to it like combo finishers or legendary effects), others look to be part of the skill’s animation. I agree though, it’d be nice to have some kind of authoritative source for this instead of guesswork.

deltaconnected.4058:

From what I know after many many hours of reverse engineering, the engine doesn’t have a notion of direct vs indirect vs falling. It looks more like ‘strike’ and not ‘strike’. ‘Missile’ refers to it’s own object (eg. can have ’effect’s applied to it like combo finishers or legendary effects), others look to be part of the skill’s animation. I agree though, it’d be nice to have some kind of authoritative source for this instead of guesswork.

Don’t you qualify as “some kind of authoritative source”? Although you don’t speak “officially,” you do have special knowledge about the underlying mechanics.

So while you couldn’t say whether ANet intended health stealing or health siphoning to bypass Endure Pain, you might be able to confirm for the wiki (a player-written guide, hosted by ANet) about whether it is otherwise more consistent with what the game calls direct damage versus what the game calls condition damage.

Even if not, you could update the wiki so it doesn’t mislead people about “falling” damage being a separate ‘type’.

Separately, thanks for confirming my long-held theory that any attack can be flagged as a projectile — for the game’s purposes, a projectile is whatever the game defines to be a projectile, regardless of whether it would qualify as “an object projected or propelled forward”.

It is not a bug. What it is, if anything, is a need to be reworded on the log. Vampiric is not physical damage at all. It is armor and damage reduction ignoring. It can be blocked if you block the attacks that have life siphoning. When a hit from a weapon, such as a necromancer that has life siphoning or even a revenant’s Shiro heal skill, the actual physical damage deals “0” with endure pain. But there is a life siphoning aspect to that damage that is in it’s own category as it is neither physical or elemental. So you’re technically dealing two types of effects at once. One being physical/elemental and the other life siphoning.
Truthfully it needs to be reworded at most, but is not a bug.

EDIT: The wording might be bugged. It should be noted as “leech” in the combat log. Again, Endure Pain is not bugged. At most it’s the wording in the log. Wiki link provided, check the notes. Cheers!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_stealing

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Don’t you qualify as “some kind of authoritative source”? Although you don’t speak “officially,” you do have special knowledge about the underlying mechanics.

So while you couldn’t say whether ANet intended health stealing or health siphoning to bypass Endure Pain, you might be able to confirm for the wiki (a player-written guide, hosted by ANet) about whether it is otherwise more consistent with what the game calls direct damage versus what the game calls condition damage.

Even if not, you could update the wiki so it doesn’t mislead people about “falling” damage being a separate ‘type’.

Separately, thanks for confirming my long-held theory that any attack can be flagged as a projectile — for the game’s purposes, a projectile is whatever the game defines to be a projectile, regardless of whether it would qualify as “an object projected or propelled forward”.

All my special knowledge comes from reversing, which is better than having no knowledge at all, but still guesswork since I can still be wrong or only partially right :p In the case of damage, the only variation I see in the raw data of the combat log is a flag that I think means that the source was a ‘buff’. It also happens to coincide with the damaging skill’s “IsBuff” value. ‘Buff’ in game terms seems to mean anything that can be applied on to you: condis, boons, profession-specific, infusion buffs, environmental buffs. Vampiric, the food, and shiro heal skill are all ‘buff’ source damage in that sense and all seem to ignore endure pain (just like condis). Extrapolate from that what you will.

Falling damage is indistinguishable in the raw data from something like an autoattack but it does outright kill you instead of putting in downed state. So maybe it should have it’s own type.

That makes sense, Delta.

I think it would be fine to include your interpretation on the wiki, citing yourself as a source. If you don’t feel comfortable doing that, you could just post your notes on the discussion/talk page and leave it for the wiki frequent editors to decide what they want to put in the article.

Based on what the above, if I were editing, I’d probably update damage to say:

There are three types of damage that a player can encounter

• Direct
• Indirect, including any damage applied via boons, conditions, and health siphoning (e.g. vampiric skills, health transfer foods)
• Falling damage, which is treated as direct damage, with the exception that it can cause a character to become defeated, bypassing the downed state.

I’d also include a note about the jargon the engine uses to distinguish Direct & Indirect, which are the wiki’s jargon for that part of MMO combat mechanics.

And I’d add an anomaly note to Endure Pain and the like, which says that other types of indirect damage will bypass it, not just condi (as it’s described).

Needless to say, your mileage might vary — the OP would probably want to phrase it differently, for example. And of course, it’s up to you if you want to bother with the wiki — you already do plenty for the game.

I’d also like to add that Signet of Stone on Ranger isn’t working either. Previously I used to survive certain dungeons by activating Strength of the Pack! for stability and swiftness and Signet of Stone for damage immunity from attacks for me and my pet. Other times I’d activate Signet of Stone to buy my pet some time from attacks to be able to switch without having the longer CD from a pet dying.

Lately, however, both myself and my pet just drop dead from non-condition attacks despite Signet of Stone being active. It’s become basically worthless in its current state since whether or not it works seems completely random.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think it would be fine to include your interpretation on the wiki, citing yourself as a source. If you don’t feel comfortable doing that, you could just post your notes on the discussion/talk page and leave it for the wiki frequent editors to decide what they want to put in the article.

Heh. I don’t mind throwing in observations here and there when I see the chance (like this thread), but they’re still observations pieced together from client disassembly + the occasional red post + raw analysis of my own. Plus my code notes are all functional so I don’t exactly have any real reference besides “hey I remember this” :p

deltaconnected.4058:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think it would be fine to include your interpretation on the wiki, citing yourself as a source. If you don’t feel comfortable doing that, you could just post your notes on the discussion/talk page and leave it for the wiki frequent editors to decide what they want to put in the article.

Heh. I don’t mind throwing in observations here and there when I see the chance (like this thread), but they’re still observations pieced together from client disassembly + the occasional red post + raw analysis of my own. Plus my code notes are all functional so I don’t exactly have any real reference besides “hey I remember this” :p

That’s sufficient for the wiki, under the circumstances

Like I say, if you’re worried about how it comes across, post the note on the talk page and the let the frequent contributors decide how they want to incorporate your recollections.

Either way, I appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts here. It helps me (and I imagine many others) to understand what’s going on.