Guild Wars 2

rotten.9753:

Sina.9208:

Personally I think not all fights need to be melee friendly. Ranged Lupi is kind of fun, I had a good time ranging him when gw2 was new, those were the days .. :p

That’s just makes reflects even more required for that fight, nothing else. You go ranged when you have profession like necros who lacks evades and projectile defense.

If you are ranged and spread out you don’t need any reflects, just the ability to dodge, which is doable, if the projectile has to actually travel a bit to reach you. (and Lupi will choose fairly random targets for it too, unlike how it would hit a stacked “meleeblob”)

Sina.9208:

If you are ranged and spread out you don’t need any reflects, just the ability to dodge, which is doable, if the projectile has to actually travel a bit to reach you. (and Lupi will choose fairly random targets for it too, unlike how it would hit a stacked “meleeblob”)

That’s what I said.

But if you go ranged it takes much longer than just melee+reflects. Or just one shot him.

Sina.9208:

rotten.9753:

Sina.9208:

Personally I think not all fights need to be melee friendly. Ranged Lupi is kind of fun, I had a good time ranging him when gw2 was new, those were the days .. :p

That’s just makes reflects even more required for that fight, nothing else. You go ranged when you have profession like necros who lacks evades and projectile defense.

If you are ranged and spread out you don’t need any reflects, just the ability to dodge, which is doable, if the projectile has to actually travel a bit to reach you. (and Lupi will choose fairly random targets for it too, unlike how it would hit a stacked “meleeblob”)

Why bother ranging when you can just one shot him with an organized group with your “meleeblob” or just throw a Wall of Reflect above Lupi. Everyone says it’s not an exploit and pugs do it all the time so why would you waste your time.

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

There is a conversation going on about this, but no decisions have been made.

inb4 bug becomes feature because soloing/meleeing = exploit

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

There is a conversation going on about this, but no decisions have been made.

A conversation to know if unintentional changes (also named bugs) should be left in the game… You made me laugh so hard. Lupi’s skills in p3 don’t work properly and I don’t think it’s a new feature, but an unintentional change too…

I always enjoyed the Lupi fight and never even considered using WoR on him untill these changes almost a month ago…. Fix the WoR don’t make the fight change for those of us who liked to kill him legit… I know he can still be killed solo and In groups with the changes but why leave the cheese if your gonna change the fight….

Hit auto attack hitting in melee makes no sense from a design perspective because virtually all of his attacks are already anti-melee, and there is very little risk in ranging him. In melee you have to worry about swipes, lupine blast is much more dangerous, necrid trap, frenzied blast, ect. In p3 you don’t even have to worry about life drain because you’ll typically be outside the aoe radius when ranging. The only concerns then become the single target life drink and his auto. To me the mechanics always made sense the way they were.

Fix it Anet please

I don’t understand why there is a “conversation” going on about this. It’s a really stupid, broken mechanic in its current state. Consideration implies that they’re contemplating leaving it the way it is, which would be a gross defiance to what i’d say most of the dungeon community wants (whether they have posted here or not).

I hope that the real conversation happening here is instead regarding the broader topic of GL’s projectiles and why it’s time to finally phase out reflection gimmicks

So basically this only affect Arah sellers right? (organized group oneshot it, pugs range it)

Sina.9208:

So basically this only affect Arah sellers right? (organized group oneshot it, pugs range it)

The current Lupi won’t effect organized group since they just rely on one shotting Lupicus; however, pugs will have a much harder time killing Lupicus. As for Arah selling, it makes it harder but still do-able. I went into a pug today where they were stuck on Lupi and I ended up having to solo him. Melee is still easier since you can control where your character is (dodge into wall) and not having to worry about Lupi moving. As for selling, I’ve still been able to sell regularly but the fight itself is a pain now.

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

There is a conversation going on about this, but no decisions have been made.

I don’t wanna use more one-shot lupi exploits when I play with pugs, with this bug its the only way to kill it if we don’t want to spend hours trying :/

Please make a good decision and fix it
(btw you should talk about oneshoting lupi aswell)

Ana is right, PuGs just one shot him because they don’t know how to fight him. He is still solo-able he is just more of a pain now due to his spammable auto attack in phase 2 and 3. This has no effect on organized groups due to reflect rotations and really soloers for the most part (certain classes suffer) but really hurts PuGs and new players the most and really needs to be fixed.

So how does the change hurt new players?

I highly doubt any newbie is meleeing Lupi.

And if people meant to tell me those pro players who used to melee lupi can’t range lupi in pug, I highly doubt it.

Most PuGs melee him these days unless everyone in the group is extremely in-experienced. But I haven’t seen this in well over a year. Having said that, groups will kick players who are not in melee as all it does it prolong the fight since he will constantly walk away from you and teleport all over the place which is annoying as kitten. Groups not using reflects then by nature are just a time bomb waiting to happen.

Titanimite.2534:

Most PuGs melee him these days unless everyone in the group is extremely in-experienced. But I haven’t seen this in well over a year. Having said that, groups will kick players who are not in melee as all it does it prolong the fight since he will constantly walk away from you and teleport all over the place which is annoying as kitten. Groups not using reflects then by nature are just a time bomb waiting to happen.

Naturally spending 20 seconds on Lupi beats 2 minutes, so I too am going for that, but!
In my opinion Lupicus’s shadow walk is a pretty fun mechanic, fun for the kiter, fun for the dpsers, assuming the goal is to have fun rather than looting the end reward asap.

Titanimite.2534:

Most PuGs melee him these days unless everyone in the group is extremely in-experienced. But I haven’t seen this in well over a year. Having said that, groups will kick players who are not in melee as all it does it prolong the fight since he will constantly walk away from you and teleport all over the place which is annoying as kitten. Groups not using reflects then by nature are just a time bomb waiting to happen.

I don’t know where you get the idea most pug melee him. Just because you only join group which says LFM melee lupi only. Don’t mean most pug melee him.

And I doubt those people you describe is actually having problem with the dungeon even after the change. The real people having problem is a bunch of newbies without anyone to carry them. So the only case people have is it’s harder to carry newbies through arah now.

How are the discussions coming?

Speed up your conversation and fix this finally!

I just want to share a quick post’s worth explanation why I’m so eager for Lupicus to be fixed in multiple ways.

First of all, the bugged autoattack isn’t that bad but the problem is it’s class discriminative. For example it can literally 1-hit an ele from max hp if it crits (have had it happen before) assuming only 916 vitality, that is. Meanwhile on basically any other class it won’t, and also any class without access to reflects, blocks and enough vigour/endurance is at the mercy of being incapable to function on their own without unconventional methods like running out of combat repeatedly to heal up. Does this sound like good design? Certainly not. Necromancer in particular suffers with the change, and both eles and thieves can’t take the same builds as before to get it done with without some huge adjustments.

Basically, it’s a build check. It doesn’t actually add true difficulty to the encounter, but rather it serves as something similar to that of the agony condition in fotm. An example of adding true depth/difficulty to an encounter would be making his attacks much less predictable and giving him more attacks, possibly increasing his attack speed as the fight carries on or giving him an “enraged” mode similar to that of what Legendary Imbued Shaman has in the Volcanic Fractal.

Now, the WoR-sploiting aka 1-shotting… that needs to go. This literally kills pugging in Arah. It’s almost impossible to find pug groups that don’t default to this, and the worst part is there’s almost nothing you can do about it. Making your own parties and stating not to do it isn’t completely guaranteeing you that the pugs will listen. I’ve had it happen to me 3 times now where I repeatedly brought it up in party chat not to 1-shot him but they still did. I couldn’t interrupt the aoe, I couldn’t prevent him from being walled because Lupicus didn’t aggro on me in phase 1, I couldn’t use swirling winds in phase 2 to prevent it because I wasn’t on an ele, I couldn’t do anything at all to prevent it. I can’t even kick the people that do it either because of the 3-vote rule now and the lack of instance ownership.

Why should it be this way? Why should players who have absolutely no idea how to fight the boss to begin with get a free get-by pass?

No one 1-shots this boss without being either a bad player, too lazy or unmotivated to learn how to do Lupicus properly, or too stubborn to admit he’s too hard for them to do. Well in my and many others’ opinion, ’sploiting Lupi like this is no better than skipping him altogether is and find it preposterous to suspect that any of these changes at all were intentional without Anet having fixed this problem first. They were obviously aware of it all of this time, so it is illogical to assume otherwise.

Anyways, my suggested proposals:

First things first:

Fix the 1-shotting problem by either making it impossible to place ground targeted AoE on the surface of the wall or moving the point of origin for his projectiles up to the top of his head instead.

Along with that…

a) Completely revert Lupicus to his former self
b) Keep his ranged autoattacks hitting in melee range, but reduce the damage significantly. This way they would still remain a threat but it wouldn’t completely ruin the encounter for classes like necromancer, for example.

Necrid Blast hits hard and often and it’s not the only skill that needs dodged. I’m thinking having build and specific gear requirements for the new and improved Lupicus is not very player-friendly.
However, I believe it will be easier for them to just say “oh, it was an intended feature, but we actually forgot to mention it in the last few patch notes”.
As for one-shotting him, I for one dislike the concept. I mean, sure, most mobs “cheat” in the game (because of a rather bug-heavy environment), and the fixes are constantly postponed by the need to update the shop, but that doesn’t mean I have to join the crowd of cheating, careless entities involved in this.
There are many game breaking bugs that Anet is “looking into” or “having conversations about” for many years now, and improvements are yet to be seen.
Back in GW1 times, when Anet was actually fixing an aspect of the game, like the op SF on sins, the community used to find new means around it. Only difference is that here, the options are limited due to very poor skills/traits options (with most of them being there just to add up to the required number/class, not for any utility they can provide).

Lupicus’s Necrid Bolt hitting in melee is still an issue and needs to be addressed. I understand that it cannot simply be fixed in an instant, but a response on whether or not the change was intended and the future plans for Necrid Bolt would be appreciated greatly.

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

There is a conversation going on about this, but no decisions have been made.

Must be a kitten intense discussion if it’s ongoing for over a month.

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

Dub.1273:

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

There is a conversation going on about this, but no decisions have been made.

Must be a kitten intense discussion if it’s ongoing for over a month.

Yeah let me go poke the email chain again.

dot dot dot

That feel when I don’t know how to feel

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

Dub.1273:

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

There is a conversation going on about this, but no decisions have been made.

Must be a kitten intense discussion if it’s ongoing for over a month.

Yeah let me go poke the email chain again.

dot dot dot

Can’t tell if sarcasm

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

Dub.1273:

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

There is a conversation going on about this, but no decisions have been made.

Must be a kitten intense discussion if it’s ongoing for over a month.

Yeah let me go poke the email chain again.

dot dot dot

That customer service tho

Lauren responding with sarcasm to a sarcastic comment, how dare she?! On a separate note, necrid bolt in melee or not, the real problem with Lupicus has always been reflects making him trivial. On an even wider scale, that’s the problem with many if not all projectile reliant PvE fights, they either become hard (possibly too hard) without reflects, or a complete walk in the park with them.

The people behind these dungeons are gone, or at least Robert Hrouda is, who was the most prominent face on dungeon revamps (which were abandoned after AC).

Can’t really blame a QA lead for being pulled into this mess and asked to clean up negligent practices by the development team.

Let’s be honest, they haven’t even clarified this is a big because they haven’t even commented on what’s the intention/design behind lupicus’s attacks. Maybe it was intended to hit melee all along, who knows.

And if it was intended, it is then not a bug and hardly the territory of a QA lead. QA leads have no power over design directions for content. Don’t take it out on them. You know something is wrong when a developer can’t even be bothered to come into the dungeon forums to comment on an issue and instead they push guys down the ladder to be messengers.

Developers have said communicating with players in GW2 is not actually part of their job, contrary to the common practices of every current competitive MMO out there (WoW, Wildstar, FFXIV devs all communicate with the community fairly frequently). Meanwhile GW2 devs only show their heads in the forums when they’re promoting an upcoming release and once the cash is in from sales they disappear into the nether.

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

tl;dr I will keep fighting the good fight on your behalf.

Thank you

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

Actually I didn’t mean that sarcastically, well the “dot dot dot” part is but that’s more me stuck working in the system and not directed to anyone on the forums.

I have been poking about this fix for a month now or so internally now. Been asking to get someone in here to talk to everyone about this bug and what’s up with it but as of yet no dice. I am doing everything I can to get this resolved or some explanations for you guys.

But yeah, I have some extremely tied hands and poking with my poking stick is about all I can do because I don’t control development or production schedules or design decisions. I do take screenshots of comments and paste them into some internal emails though… And the # of live reports, and the forum links, etc. I can make a huge ruckus when it’s needed, but in general everything I do is behind the scenes and I don’t take credit or spill the beans on what occurred to get it to that point.

While I have all the answers, really I am the next thing to a walking encyclopedia of the GW2 bug DB at any time, I can’t really go around shouting what is happening one way or the other because it can change daily… and letting some things I know be known would probably result in my not working for ArenaNet anymore. That’s something that would be kinda poopy and I would like that not to happen, so I avoid it and instead just say slightly nebulous things like “soon” when I see a fix coming for the next release. One day that “soon” will have some real intent behind it. Today actually seems like a good day to “soon” some threads so…

Also yes, reading and responding on the forums is not actually part of my job. I got to a point where I just really didn’t like how you guys felt ignored in this forum and I’m trying to do something about it. I tend to only post positively and I won’t respond to all threads.

tl;dr I will keep fighting the good fight on your behalf.

I guess i totally misunderstood your last response
Its nice hearing a thorough explanation, kinda gets rid of all the frustration I’ve at least experienced because of this bug. Thank you for your help!

In that case, tyvm Lauren.

We understand it’s not your fault but either way it is complete BS for this to have gone on for over a month with still no attention. There’s really no excuse.

If they have no time to work on fixing the problems in this game then evidently there’s a problem with the # of people employed… there are still so many bugs people have been begging for fixes for years as well without even so much as a single post of some acknowledgment, let alone fixes.

Suffice to say we aren’t very trusting because of that.

Either way I cannot speak for anyone but myself… but I’m grateful for you trying to maintain communication with us despite it not being a part of your job, along with anything you can do to help us.

Please don’t stop here though! We believe in you, senpai!

I guess it’s better to one shot him instead learning a bugged content. People’ll fight the bug with an exploit and push this information as much as possible just to show the developers it’s serious more than anything.

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

Also yes, reading and responding on the forums is not actually part of my job. I got to a point where I just really didn’t like how you guys felt ignored in this forum and I’m trying to do something about it. I tend to only post positively and I won’t respond to all threads.

tl;dr I will keep fighting the good fight on your behalf.

You have no idea how nice it is to hear that. You sound as frustrated as we are about the situation, but know that we appreciate your efforts. Thank you so much <3

Hope we can hear something solid in the near future, but for now it’s just nice to know that someone is actually listening and understands our frustration. Even though your post didn’t really say a lot about the bug, having an actual human response helps quite a bit — I think there would be a marked improvement in player tone and attitude towards ArenaNet if we saw more of this sort of communication. I hope you don’t get in any trouble over it…

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

Actually I didn’t mean that sarcastically, well the “dot dot dot” part is but that’s more me stuck working in the system and not directed to anyone on the forums.

I have been poking about this fix for a month now or so internally now. Been asking to get someone in here to talk to everyone about this bug and what’s up with it but as of yet no dice. I am doing everything I can to get this resolved or some explanations for you guys.

But yeah, I have some extremely tied hands and poking with my poking stick is about all I can do because I don’t control development or production schedules or design decisions. I do take screenshots of comments and paste them into some internal emails though… And the # of live reports, and the forum links, etc. I can make a huge ruckus when it’s needed, but in general everything I do is behind the scenes and I don’t take credit or spill the beans on what occurred to get it to that point.

While I have all the answers, really I am the next thing to a walking encyclopedia of the GW2 bug DB at any time, I can’t really go around shouting what is happening one way or the other because it can change daily… and letting some things I know be known would probably result in my not working for ArenaNet anymore. That’s something that would be kinda poopy and I would like that not to happen, so I avoid it and instead just say slightly nebulous things like “soon” when I see a fix coming for the next release. One day that “soon” will have some real intent behind it. Today actually seems like a good day to “soon” some threads so…

Also yes, reading and responding on the forums is not actually part of my job. I got to a point where I just really didn’t like how you guys felt ignored in this forum and I’m trying to do something about it. I tend to only post positively and I won’t respond to all threads.

tl;dr I will keep fighting the good fight on your behalf.

Thank you. Seriously, words can’t express how nice it was to read a reply like this.

That was a very honest sounding post by Lauren, I just hope she doesn’t get flak in the office because of it.

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

Actually I didn’t mean that sarcastically, well the “dot dot dot” part is but that’s more me stuck working in the system and not directed to anyone on the forums.

I have been poking about this fix for a month now or so internally now. Been asking to get someone in here to talk to everyone about this bug and what’s up with it but as of yet no dice. I am doing everything I can to get this resolved or some explanations for you guys.

But yeah, I have some extremely tied hands and poking with my poking stick is about all I can do because I don’t control development or production schedules or design decisions. I do take screenshots of comments and paste them into some internal emails though… And the # of live reports, and the forum links, etc. I can make a huge ruckus when it’s needed, but in general everything I do is behind the scenes and I don’t take credit or spill the beans on what occurred to get it to that point.

While I have all the answers, really I am the next thing to a walking encyclopedia of the GW2 bug DB at any time, I can’t really go around shouting what is happening one way or the other because it can change daily… and letting some things I know be known would probably result in my not working for ArenaNet anymore. That’s something that would be kinda poopy and I would like that not to happen, so I avoid it and instead just say slightly nebulous things like “soon” when I see a fix coming for the next release. One day that “soon” will have some real intent behind it. Today actually seems like a good day to “soon” some threads so…

Also yes, reading and responding on the forums is not actually part of my job. I got to a point where I just really didn’t like how you guys felt ignored in this forum and I’m trying to do something about it. I tend to only post positively and I won’t respond to all threads.

tl;dr I will keep fighting the good fight on your behalf.

Thank you very much, really nice to see any proof of life. Know that you are a friend of the dungeon community now! Nice to know there are those that still want to help and make others happy!

Lauren, you have guaranteed your permanent seat among us.

Ah, a salmon swimming upstream. Hope they make it. :0

If it’s so bad that people can’t solo arah. Or if their class can’t…

I doubt every class can solo AC path 1 too. Why is that everyone should be able to solo arah but not AC path 1.

These dev responses are really nice to hear. After a fair amount of silence its good to hear an honest explanation of the stuff so thank you guys!

laokoko.7403:

If it’s so bad that people can’t solo arah. Or if their class can’t…

I doubt every class can solo AC path 1 too. Why is that everyone should be able to solo arah but not AC path 1.

The issue isn’t about whether or not you can solo arah. It’s about the build/class check this bug creates. If you are in a party with no reflects, gl getting past lupi.

I think lupi could use some buffs to make him more active in phase 2 and 3, but this is a bad bug. Lupi was a great boss because you could use almost any build and any class (well you usually had to slot in some survival) and still manage to do him in a party or solo. He was challenging but inclusive. Now he’s exclusive to certain classes and basically begs to be one shot in 99% of pugs.

I have no idea why people keep mention reflect.

Even 5 completely new peoplel can range and kill lupi with no problem without reflect.

I don’t know why people keep thinking they should stand infront and melee(auto attack) him to death.

It’s kind of like molten duo. Sure it’s nice that there is someone with reflect and some “players that like to auto attack in melee range and do nothing else” can kill the boss. But it’s not like you really need to do that if you aren’t “too terrible”.

Nyx.7342:

I think lupi could use some buffs to make him more active in phase 2 and 3, but this is a bad bug. Lupi was a great boss because you could use almost any build and any class (well you usually had to slot in some survival) and still manage to do him in a party or solo. He was challenging but inclusive. Now he’s exclusive to certain classes and basically begs to be one shot in 99% of pugs.

I’m not even good enough to join those “experienced melee LUPI only” on LFG.

Since I’m not experienced and I can’t melee Lupi.

So I can only join group with no requirement and full of new players. And we kill LUPI ranging.

So I have no idea, how so many pros get stuck on LUPI now in 5 man group.

And if you want to talk about exclusion. How many class can actually solo AC path 1. And if you want to talk about difficulty many people I know still solo arah, while they can’t solo AC path 1. So shouldn’t AC path 1 deserve a look at, and make it easier?

laokoko.7403:

I have no idea why people keep mention reflect.

Even 5 completely new peoplel can range and kill lupi with no problem without reflect.

I don’t know why people keep thinking they should stand infront and melee(auto attack) him to death.

It’s kind of like molten duo. Sure it’s nice that there is someone with reflect and some “players that like to auto attack in melee range and do nothing else” can kill the boss. But it’s not like you really need to do that if you aren’t “too terrible”.

5 very new people will have a serious challenge with lupi. However, yes they can range and can successfully defeat him. I know this because I was a group of 5 very new people once, and it took us forever. But we never felt like we couldn’t win, only that our choices had been wrong so we kept trying, that is good design.

I’m probably trolling a bit and argue for the sack of arguing.

But my point of view is there are dungeon outside of arah. And it seems people only care about it because they are arah seller, or arah is more iconic in some way.

If anet would make a solo version of all dungeon and fine tune them base on class, it would be really nice. Right now the only way to solo some of the dungeon is to get 5 account for example for cof. Since soloing dungeon have become such a big part of GW2, why not push it a bit further.

If Anet think they should fix the bug to make all the solo arah players happy. They could do the same for other dungeon too.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Lauren Kamieniecki.6245:

Also yes, reading and responding on the forums is not actually part of my job. I got to a point where I just really didn’t like how you guys felt ignored in this forum and I’m trying to do something about it. I tend to only post positively and I won’t respond to all threads.

tl;dr I will keep fighting the good fight on your behalf.

I support this thread.

Lauren is going above and beyond about this and other bugs. I’ve told her personally, and I’ll say it here: I’m delighted that she is posting in our forums.

Shut down incoming in 3… 2… 1…

In Memoriam Josh Foreman

laokoko.7403, what the hell are you talking about?

Since when are Arenanet supposed to balance dungeons around who gets to solo them? These are designed for parties of 5, so whether you can or cannot solo them is completely irrelevant.

I can solo Arah with ease after the bug was implemented, but I don’t go around saying “it’s still possible so it should be left alone because I can do it.” Likewise, I’m not running around complaining about not being able to solo Thaumanova Fractal due to not being a mesmer or thief. I just suck it up and invite a friend. The same should be applied to you and AC. Just because you can’t solo it on your favorite class doesn’t mean the mechanics are unfair.

laokoko.7403:

I’m probably trolling a bit and argue for the sack of arguing.

But my point of view is there are dungeon outside of arah. And it seems people only care about it because they are arah seller, or arah is more iconic in some way.

If anet would make a solo version of all dungeon and fine tune them base on class, it would be really nice. Right now the only way to solo some of the dungeon is to get 5 account for example for cof. Since soloing dungeon have become such a big part of GW2, why not push it a bit further.

If Anet think they should fix the bug to make all the solo arah players happy. They could do the same for other dungeon too.

The reason people care so much is not about solos. If they were sellers they would just go do it on guard, or if they solod for fun they would just to it with the bug. People care so much because Arah is the best dungeon in the game right now, especially since fotm has such atrocious rewards. It’s a lot of people’s favorite dungeon and it’s kinda ruined because of this bug. It’s not that it’s impossible to kill him it’s just not as fun as before.

Also the change to the bug has nothing to do with other dungeons. No one is asking them to change the mechanics of a whole dungeon and make it easier. We are asking they revert an unintentional mistake in their coding. your points don’t really make any sense……..