Champions killed, no XP or champ bag
Maybe it’s not a cap on players, but a damage amount requirement. It is known that the damage requirement for Gold in the Event is less than the damage requirement to qualify for credit on the kill.
That’s why I assume kill speed has something to do with that.
Example:
Mesmer (extremely slow to set up its phantasms to output damage and kill someone ‘fast enough’) = very often no champ bag and if so it is from inferior quality like a white one
Ranger/ ele/ etc. (fast damage output) = exotic bag nearly each time
But there are also a few events where the timer in general doesn’t count properly. That can also be seen when looking at the medal. You do enough damage, you are fast enough, but compared to the damage overall, you just suc..
Example: jungle worm
Most of the time (not profession specific, happens to most of my characters) you got a bronze medal for completing to kill the three champs event directly before the jungle worm arrives (it is very hard to qualify for gold which doesn’t make any sense.. compared to the dragon totem at svanir shaman which you just have to hit once and you got a golden medal ^^)
Well, and of course, what is dependent on your profession choice there, is the issue mentioned above.. these champs give loot bag from none to exotic and this is definitely depending which character I take there.. mesmer mostly a white bag whereas thief etc has a very good chance to get an exotic one ^^ (in average you can get champ bags from 2 out of three champs in such events.. like the champ biests at modniir.. you just do not (fast) enough damage to qualify for the third bag, even if you do some high dps it just is not enough..)
Not a very pleasant experience that it is that much inconsistent and is clearly connected and depending of the profession that you chose to play with.
And of course it has also an effect on how much loot you get in large events. Same issue there. If you are too slow to do (high) damage, you do not qualify for decent loot. Worst if you do not have much aoe options as well. (If you would only look at that point it doesn’t make any sense to choose a profession which needs time to set up/ prepare to kill foes (like mesmer), because all the other professions that are faster than you, kill the foes until you are ready and you get what? Nothing. No bags, no loot.)
Maybe it’s not a cap on players, but a damage amount requirement. It is known that the damage requirement for Gold in the Event is less than the damage requirement to qualify for credit on the kill.
I thought the same thing myself. That said, there were times that I could group with another thief for the fight and have both of us Backstabbing and Heartseeking as needed the whole battle only to get no champ bag, whereas other times when I was solo using my thief shortbow (not exactly the best DPS) against the Karka Queen and I got her XP and champ bag fine. That made me think it was something else, so I went to test the “first to tag” possibility instead. Whenever I get the credit with the Shortbow is when I happen to fortunately be at the right camp when she spawns to start attacking her quickly.
At Frozen Maw last night, I attended with a friend and skipped the Mists Portal event right before the Svanir Shaman, hanging out right next to the boss instead. My friend, not grouped with me, went to do those portals. When the Svanir Shaman became a valid target after the pre-events ended, I was one of the first to hit him. My friend waited until the rest of the zerg engaged before jumping in himself. During the fight, I held back on my damage, whereas he went all-out. Sure enough, at the end I got the XP/Champ Bag and he got nothing.
With the Megaserver encouraging these 100+ player groups to hunt down world boss champs, it would be nice if this issue could be looked at, so that everyone can get appropriate awards for these massively zerged events rather than the fastest to tag, whether it’s the fastest 50 or 100 or whichever.
Some events have always included champs that don’t drop loot (notably Clawr of Jormag, first phase); ANet added a few champs to several events that won’t drop loot (notably Fire Elemental pre-events).
The reason in both cases was that stuff died too quickly and some people couldn’t get event credit. ANet wanted to make it easier to deliver damage without unbalancing the amount of loot that dropped. My preference is that they call such foes “Chumpions” or “Felites” (failed elites?) or something to identify them as non-loot-bearing foes.
I’d also like to see all such foes be worth 1 experience point, so that on-kill effects properly trigger, e.g. rallying on their death, charging sigils|food, etc. This would be low enough to make farming them worthless, but enough so that instance combat wouldn’t be fundamentally different from that in open-world.
The later example given by Mao is a bit different: first taggers seem to get preferential credit over those who fight later. I suspect this is a client/server issue: your computer believes it’s doing a ton of damage, but the server says, “nope, I’ve already distributed all the loot imma drop.” If that’s so, any fix would require a drastic change to the underlying mechanics behind drop credit and would explain why they haven’t addressed it …yet.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Some events have always included champs that don’t drop loot (notably Clawr of Jormag, first phase); ANet added a few champs to several events that won’t drop loot (notably Fire Elemental pre-events).
During Fire Elemental pre-events, with the exception of some Veteran Golems (they are standard spawns), mobs upscaled to veterans or higher do not give Exp nor drop any loots at all, and I wonder what is up with that. I don’t think the devs can explain that.
Some events have always included champs that don’t drop loot (notably Clawr of Jormag, first phase); ANet added a few champs to several events that won’t drop loot (notably Fire Elemental pre-events).
During Fire Elemental pre-events, with the exception of some Veteran Golems (they are standard spawns), mobs upscaled to veterans or higher do not give Exp nor drop any loots at all, and I wonder what is up with that. I don’t think the devs can explain that.
My apologies: I thought I did explain it. The idea is to ensure that everyone can get credit for the event. In the past, the lesser mobs died too quickly for a lot of people to tag. By adding the elite+ mobs (as appropriate to the event’s scaling), foes last a lot longer and give more players more time (and HP to damage), allowing folks to get credit.
In order to do that quickly, without having to rework event mechanics, they added trash mobs, that rare NPC in GW2 that gives neither XP nor loot when killed. That resolves the “getting credit” problem, without creating a situation ripe for exploitation.
That has several unintended and annoying consequences (noted above), but on the whole, it’s lowered overall frustration with the relevant events.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
I’ve continued to test this on enemies like the Legendary Karka Queen and Champion Svanir Shaman, and so far it seems to be confirming that to get the experience and champion bag for the kill, you simply have to hit the enemy fast rather than doing a certain amount of damage. However, a test in Dry Top showed that the problem might be more prevalent than I thought.
My suspicion was that this problem would only come up in cases where there were one hundred plus players, making it rare and likely restricted to the aforementioned world bosses. In a recent Dry Top Haze event during the sandstorm, though, I was slow in getting to one of the level 84 Veteran Arid Devourer spawns, not hitting it for the first time until it was already at 75% health, and as a result even though I still wound up inflicting a good amount of damage on it I got no experience/loot from it. I don’t think Dry Top is even capable of holding one hundred players right now, so that seems to indicate that the cutoff for players getting loot is lower than I suspected. The first fifty to inflict damage? Forty?
It’s something that I hope gets looked at, because once word gets out that this is what determines whether people will get loot from kills or not, some places might wind up getting toxic. People not wanting to go clear out the Jungle Wurm pre-events for fear of missing out on Avatar of Woe champ bags, for example.
I’ve continued to test this on enemies like the Legendary Karka Queen and Champion Svanir Shaman, and so far it seems to be confirming that to get the experience and champion bag for the kill, you simply have to hit the enemy fast rather than doing a certain amount of damage. However, a test in Dry Top showed that the problem might be more prevalent than I thought.
My suspicion was that this problem would only come up in cases where there were one hundred plus players, making it rare and likely restricted to the aforementioned world bosses. In a recent Dry Top Haze event during the sandstorm, though, I was slow in getting to one of the level 84 Veteran Arid Devourer spawns, not hitting it for the first time until it was already at 75% health, and as a result even though I still wound up inflicting a good amount of damage on it I got no experience/loot from it. I don’t think Dry Top is even capable of holding one hundred players right now, so that seems to indicate that the cutoff for players getting loot is lower than I suspected. The first fifty to inflict damage? Forty?
It’s something that I hope gets looked at, because once word gets out that this is what determines whether people will get loot from kills or not, some places might wind up getting toxic. People not wanting to go clear out the Jungle Wurm pre-events for fear of missing out on Avatar of Woe champ bags, for example.
I’ve noticed some strange abnormalities with the veteran arid devourers too in that event. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve showed up late, dished out what I felt was plenty of damage, not not gotten loot or event credit.
I still very strongly feel that it’s infact a damage threshold, which party can contribute towards – a problem made worse by everyone else grouping up together in the megaserver zergs, making it more difficult for those groupless to get credit.
Many many times, I’ve showed up late to a champion which party members have done lots of damage to – and so long as I cast a few damage spells their way, I get full credit for the champion bag. Ulgoth is a good example of this – sometimes I’m late in getting to one of the two Junction Camp champions. Or, the triple warbeasts.
I’ve even showed up late to the occasional boss while in a party – say Maw or Mega, and joined in when the boss was really low HP to receive full credit, even on an apparently full map, some of which I was taxi’d into.
This would seem to go against the notion that there’s some sort of limit or cap to how many can get credit unless it’s because a party member was one of those initial to get credit.
Tarnished Coast Engineer and… general alt-o-holic.
For the toast!
For the toast!
(edited by Halcyon.7352)
This would seem to go against the notion that there’s some sort of limit or cap to how many can get credit unless it’s because a party member was one of those initial to get credit.
I think it is the latter. That would explain why people think that joining a group helps. It does help, if one person in the group was among the first to tag and get credit, then that allows the groupmates to share in the credit.
I usually don’t have a full party of friends travelling with me to world bosses, so this isn’t something I can test, but hopefully someone else is able to. A good way to test this on an encounter like Frozen Maw is for someone to get a full group of five people and all withhold from engaging the Champion Svanir Shaman until it reaches, say, 80% health. By that point, everyone else at the event should have engaged the boss. If it’s based purely on a damage threshold, a full party of five should be able to meet that threshold over the course of 80% of the boss’ health. But if it’s a “first tagged, first serve” scenario as my experiences have shown me it is, then that full group of five would miss out on the champion bag.
Is there a group of players willing to serve as guinea pigs and potentially forego a champ bag from the Champion Svanir Shaman or Legendary Karka Queen for science?
In all honesty I have never received a drop from either the Karka Queen or the Svanir Shaman either, at least not since the world boss updates. There have been more than a few occasions where I haven’t received one from Ulgoth either. I don’t know if it’s a bug or not though.
Corwin Grimjaw: Guardian (80)
Yak’s Bend Server
Crimethink [ct]
Yak’s Bend Server
Crimethink [ct]
In all honesty I have never received a drop from either the Karka Queen or the Svanir Shaman either, at least not since the world boss updates. There have been more than a few occasions where I haven’t received one from Ulgoth either. I don’t know if it’s a bug or not though.
You’re not doing enough damage to get credit. Join (or create) a party of five; it makes it easier to hit the required minimums.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
You’re not doing enough damage to get credit. Join (or create) a party of five; it makes it easier to hit the required minimums.
That’s the problem, though, that’s not the reason he’s not getting credit. It has nothing to do with how much damage you deal, beyond an arbitrary minimum value required that’s a given for anyone who doesn’t show up when the enemy only has 10% health left. The bug is that loot rights are rewarded on a first come, first served basis rather than based on the damage you deal.
The only way having a party of five helps you is if one of those five players was one of the first number of people (25? 50?) to deal damage to the boss. In that case, you can share in his loot credit by also inflicting damage, even if you just land a single hit. But if all five people in your party of five arrive and hit the boss too late, after too many other people have, you won’t get XP or the champ bag no matter how much damage you do to it. Even if everyone else who hit the boss stops attacking and lets your party deal the rest of the damage yourselves, you’d still remain lootless at the end.
That’s the bug I’m pointing out. It goes contrary to the popular belief of how kill credit is awarded, I know, but my testing has shown me that’s how it is. If you can get a group of your friends together to try the test I suggested above, or if ideally an Arenanet employee can do so, then you’ll see the issue yourself as well. Hopefully it’s something that can be fixed.
I suspect you’re right that tagging first is more important than tagging last (although, there are other explanations besides there’s a bug). But regardless, joining a party helps, because other people are also trying to do the same thing.
That said, I have sometimes missed getting the champ bag from Karka Queen after being first to tag (not even among the first) and sometimes gotten the bag, even after joining the fight late. With and without a party. I’ve always gotten event credit, the bonus, and the open world chest (except when I’ve crashed or DC’d, but that’s another set of issues).
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”