Guild Wars 2

Anyone can test these themselves. It is clear there is some missing number (probably straight 3*) in necromancer’s pve downed health formula.

Please I hope a dev will looks into this.

The last thread felt into oblivion. This one have test to back it up.

Having 1/3 HP in PvE/WvW is huge!

Necros get to syphon health with their downed 1 skill. I guess this is intentional.

BaconCatTheGreasy.9542:

Necros get to syphon health with their downed 1 skill. I guess this is intentional.

Then why we have exactly same downed health in spvp as others? Besides, it’s just an element added to our otherwise dull downed attack. Thieves have bouncing cripple, engineers random conditions, guardians piercing beam, rangers bleed etc…

BaconCatTheGreasy.9542:

Necros get to syphon health with their downed 1 skill. I guess this is intentional.

Wouldn’t it be nice if a dev could bother to give us that explanation rather than us playing for months with uneven classes and guessing that ourselves. Honestly none of the classes are on equal footing when it comes to downed skills.

Necro – life siphon
guardian – group aoe knockback
ranger – single target stun
engi – single target interrupt which pulls foe closer

Turial.1293:

BaconCatTheGreasy.9542:

Necros get to syphon health with their downed 1 skill. I guess this is intentional.

Wouldn’t it be nice if a dev could bother to give us that explanation rather than us playing for months with uneven classes and guessing that ourselves. Honestly none of the classes are on equal footing when it comes to downed skills.

Necro – life siphon
guardian – group aoe knockback
ranger – single target stun
engi – single target interrupt which pulls foe closer

Nobody’s skills are equal, but downed health should definetly be equal by design yet it is not in PvE.

Just a reminder as the issue clearly needs more visiblity.

Is this really getting ignored again?

Come on this is a terrible bug right now!

+1

ANet, this has to be fixed.

Just tested this, and yes, the Necromancer’s downed pool is significantly smaller in PvE than other classes / in PvP.

Could we get a response from a dev?

Awesome. So after we’ve been downed while many of our minions, after 7+ months of brokenness, are still standing idly by doing their nails and taxes, we get to die faster as well. Maybe the Necromancer should just be renamed the Masochist.

If the OP’s testing is valid, this item is definitely important enough for one of you ANet folks to take a minute or two—in acknowledgement of the OP having taken time and effort to uncover the issue—to let us know you’re aware and have it on one of your to-do dockets.

After playing as a Ranger for a while, I am noticing a huge difference due to this in WvW and other general PvE. I don’t know what could possibly have gone wrong that would cause us to have 1/3rd of the regular downed state health, but as it stands it is unacceptable, intentional or not.

Please fix this, ArenaNet!

Please please please fix this. I play a lot of WvW and being downed is almost certain death due to this bug.

“Game Update Notes – November 15, 2012
—
PvP downed health is now 75% of what it was. This change was made so that in fights where players are slightly outnumbered, they can win those fights by killing off downed enemies through damage rather than needing to use a finishing move. This should not have too much impact on 1v1 fights or big team fights, but it should help players win 1v2 and 2v3 fights if they gain the initial advantage.”

Found this change on the patch notes. It’s related and while I dont know what the downed health in PvP was, I would assume it were same as in PvE before. However, comparing to my tests, It seems that that they only reduced it by roughly 15%, not 25% that is stated. More interesting thing is whether they broke it here, or if they broke it before and did not notice it here yet.

Another criticism I state to myself about the test is that the ratio i’m using is pretty misleading, especially if you don’t read the text supporting it. (I should take the ratio other way around so it would be inverse, and I wouldn’t have to inverse it for calculations. Currently the bigger ratio-number means lower downed health)

ANet, can you guys let us know what’s going on?

Targuil.3741:

“Game Update Notes – November 15, 2012
—
PvP downed health is now 75% of what it was. This change was made so that in fights where players are slightly outnumbered, they can win those fights by killing off downed enemies through damage rather than needing to use a finishing move. This should not have too much impact on 1v1 fights or big team fights, but it should help players win 1v2 and 2v3 fights if they gain the initial advantage.”

Found this change on the patch notes. It’s related and while I dont know what the downed health in PvP was, I would assume it were same as in PvE before. However, comparing to my tests, It seems that that they only reduced it by roughly 15%, not 25% that is stated. More interesting thing is whether they broke it here, or if they broke it before and did not notice it here yet.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012
Increased downed health in PvP to 85% of PvE downed health, from 75%.

Yopaye.9053:

Targuil.3741:

“Game Update Notes – November 15, 2012
—
PvP downed health is now 75% of what it was. This change was made so that in fights where players are slightly outnumbered, they can win those fights by killing off downed enemies through damage rather than needing to use a finishing move. This should not have too much impact on 1v1 fights or big team fights, but it should help players win 1v2 and 2v3 fights if they gain the initial advantage.”

Found this change on the patch notes. It’s related and while I dont know what the downed health in PvP was, I would assume it were same as in PvE before. However, comparing to my tests, It seems that that they only reduced it by roughly 15%, not 25% that is stated. More interesting thing is whether they broke it here, or if they broke it before and did not notice it here yet.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012
Increased downed health in PvP to 85% of PvE downed health, from 75%.

I see, that part working correctly then, thanks for the clarification.

Since it’s a gamebreaking, I really hope Anet can only confirm they are working on it.

Right now It’s disguse me when I get downed in WvW, just to be 3 shotted.

Still no answer?

Thanks Targuil! Finally an explanation why my necro bites the dust so quickly in downed state compared to my other toons. Looking forward to a response on this one (or better still a fix

Kardiamond.6952:

Still no answer?

I’m going to post in this thread until we get an answer.

I’ll help.

I love my Necromancer, and at level 52 this is the farthest I have gotten with any of the classes. Once you get used to the mechanics, Necro is a lot of fun! However, the downed state is probably my biggest issue. At least let us know you guys are reading this.

This is kind of big. Arenanet, are you seeing this?

Could we please get some input here?
This is the kind of stuff that shouldn’t be happening 6+ months after release.

Bump because I love playing my necro in WvW, but hate when I get almost instagibbed when downed.

I don’t completely understand the reason why the Necromancer has less health in downed state than on other professions, but I would like to point out a few things.

1.
Anet has made a mistake with Necromancer numbers before.
A huge one, that actually caused Necromancers to heal enemies instead of stealing life from them due to an error in the downscaling formula. The report was never officially acknowledged, but once it was made obvious and more players realized it, Anet included a fix in a later patch.

Let’s hope this issue actually does get addressed.

2.
The last time the numbers would have been changed…
Though possibly unrelated, the downscaling formula (for all professions) was changed not too long ago, to increase the difficulty in lower-level areas.
It is entirely possible that this was the day something was altered in the scale of the Necromancer health tables. If not, the Necromancer’s PvE health scale in downed state has probably been the same since launch.

Anet will often times make changes to the game, and omit certain things from the list of patch notes.

3.
This may be intentional.
Although many see this as a negative quality to Necromancer downed state, it may indeed be in effect to preserve balance. Now you may argue that the health is not lowered in sPvP, and to justify that PvE Necromancer downed health needs to be buffed, but look at the other side of the coin. If this is intentional, the fact that it does not apply to sPvP might be where the oversight occurred. It is just as likely that the oversight was made in sPvP rather than PvE, and that Necromancers should be slightly weaker due to their downed skill #1. Regardless of which side of the coin you find yourself on, the fact that sPvP and PvE have varying Necromancer downed health is DEFINITELY an oversight, and there is no doubt about that. The only way I would have conceived this as “working as intended” is if the Necromancer had less downed state in sPvP rather than PvE, but that is not the case.

It would not be the first time that something in PvE pointed out a flaw in sPvP

4.
This may actually help the Necromancer recover quicker than other classes.
That’s right, if anything this reduces the Necromancer’s downed time when compared to other professions. Whether that is a good or bad thing is based on the situation. If you enter downed state, you only need to heal 1/3 of the hp other professions to revive yourself. I would say that is overall a good thing. (Especially since the Necromancer is equipped with a life-stealing downed skill.) Again, the other side of the coin would be that death might occur faster if you are being attacked (which is almost definitely why you were downed to begin with).

While the Necromancer may indeed be more fragile in downed state, the fact that it has less health is balanced on its own.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I don’t completely understand the reason why the Necromancer has less health in downed state than on other professions, but I would like to point out a few things.
3.
This may be intentional.
Although many see this as a negative quality to Necromancer downed state, it may indeed be in effect to preserve balance. Now you may argue that the health is not lowered in sPvP, and to justify that PvE Necromancer downed health needs to be buffed, but look at the other side of the coin. If this is intentional, the fact that it does not apply to sPvP might be where the oversight occurred. It is just as likely that the oversight was made in sPvP rather than PvE, and that Necromancers should be slightly weaker due to their downed skill #1. Regardless of which side of the coin you find yourself on, the fact that sPvP and PvE have varying Necromancer downed health is DEFINITELY an oversight, and there is no doubt about that. The only way I would have conceived this as “working as intended” is if the Necromancer had less downed state in sPvP rather than PvE, but that is not the case.

It would not be the first time that something in PvE pointed out a flaw in sPvP

4.
This may actually help the Necromancer recover quicker than other classes.
That’s right, if anything this reduces the Necromancer’s downed time when compared to other professions. Whether that is a good or bad thing is based on the situation. If you enter downed state, you only need to heal 1/3 of the hp other professions to revive yourself. I would say that is overall a good thing. (Especially since the Necromancer is equipped with a life-stealing downed skill.) Again, the other side of the coin would be that death might occur faster if you are being attacked (which is almost definitely why you were downed to begin with).

While the Necromancer may indeed be more fragile in downed state, the fact that it has less health is balanced on its own.

I’ve considered the possiblity that necro having same downed health in spvp is an oversight from balance point. If anet comes out arguing that’s the case and nerfs it, then we can start debating whether it balanced. (Knowing the mediocore amount of healing lifesiphon gives, i’d argue it isn’t)

For the last point, yes, it’s an double sided coin. It basically affects three things when scaled to the percentage view: You take 300% of the damage other classes take, and receive 300% of the healing other classes receive. In addition your bandage and other player’s revive heals same 100% that other classes heal. You die 3 times faster to damage, you revive from outside revive/bandage sources 3 times faster and revive’s strength is only 33% of the other classes when comparing to damage. Engineer is downed and he has an ally reviving him and enemy dealing similar dps to revive heals. Change engineer to necromancer and you need 3 allies to counter 1 enemy dps. (abit less because of life leech, still not enough to argue balance)

Targuil.3741:

For the last point, yes, it’s an double sided coin. It basically affects three things when scaled to the percentage view: You take 300% of the damage other classes take, and receive 300% of the healing other classes receive. In addition your bandage and other player’s revive heals same 100% that other classes heal. You die 3 times faster to damage, you revive from outside revive/bandage sources 3 times faster and revive’s strength is only 33% of the other classes when comparing to damage. Engineer is downed and he has an ally reviving him and enemy dealing similar dps to revive heals. Change engineer to necromancer and you need 3 allies to counter 1 enemy dps. (abit less because of life leech, still not enough to argue balance)

You are not taking 3x more damage, and you are not getting 3x the healing.
Those numbers stay the same.

Also, the health pool is scaled down, not scaled up.

If your health is at 50 out of 100.

You need to go 50 in either direction to live or die.

If it is 5 out of 10, you only need to go 5 in either direction to live or die.

Also,
Have you tested this personally? I think your numbers are inaccurate.
I just tested this on my Necromancer versus my Engineer and found that the Necro ticks for ~250 while my Engineer ticks for ~450

Which is more in the ballpark of 55%

Unless of course this issue is indeed caused my the scaling formula (as I predicted earlier)

I think you understand the basic concept tho….

In a nutshell….
You die twice as fast, or you live twice as fast.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Targuil.3741:

For the last point, yes, it’s an double sided coin. It basically affects three things when scaled to the percentage view: You take 300% of the damage other classes take, and receive 300% of the healing other classes receive. In addition your bandage and other player’s revive heals same 100% that other classes heal. You die 3 times faster to damage, you revive from outside revive/bandage sources 3 times faster and revive’s strength is only 33% of the other classes when comparing to damage. Engineer is downed and he has an ally reviving him and enemy dealing similar dps to revive heals. Change engineer to necromancer and you need 3 allies to counter 1 enemy dps. (abit less because of life leech, still not enough to argue balance)

You are not taking 3x more damage, and you are not getting 3x the healing.
Those numbers stay the same.

Also, the health pool is scaled down, not scaled up.

If your health is at 50 out of 100.

You need to go 50 in either direction to live or die.

If it is 5 out of 10, you only need to go 5 in either direction to live or die.

Also,
Have you tested this personally? I think your numbers are inaccurate.
I just tested this on my Necromancer versus my Engineer and found that the Necro ticks for ~250 while my Engineer ticks for ~450

Which is more in the ballpark of 55%

Unless of course this issue is indeed caused my the scaling formula (as I predicted earlier)

I think you understand the basic concept tho….

In a nutshell….
You die twice as fast, or you live twice as fast.

scaled to the percentage view As in percentage of damage taken to your health. I just gave it another viewpoint. I know the exact amounts don’t change.

And for the tests, downed health is determined by exactly three things: whether you are in pve or pvp (we are in pve here I presume), whether your profession is necro or it isn’t necro (this is the injustice here) and your normal health (which will probably differ). I can’t really say anything about those ticks if I don’t know your maximum health. (Please note that wvw maximum health boost affects this, healing does not). And just to clarify, are those revive ticks or downed damage ticks and are your characters level 80 in level 80 zone?

Targuil.3741:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Targuil.3741:

For the last point, yes, it’s an double sided coin. It basically affects three things when scaled to the percentage view: You take 300% of the damage other classes take, and receive 300% of the healing other classes receive. In addition your bandage and other player’s revive heals same 100% that other classes heal. You die 3 times faster to damage, you revive from outside revive/bandage sources 3 times faster and revive’s strength is only 33% of the other classes when comparing to damage. Engineer is downed and he has an ally reviving him and enemy dealing similar dps to revive heals. Change engineer to necromancer and you need 3 allies to counter 1 enemy dps. (abit less because of life leech, still not enough to argue balance)

You are not taking 3x more damage, and you are not getting 3x the healing.
Those numbers stay the same.

Also, the health pool is scaled down, not scaled up.

If your health is at 50 out of 100.

You need to go 50 in either direction to live or die.

If it is 5 out of 10, you only need to go 5 in either direction to live or die.

Also,
Have you tested this personally? I think your numbers are inaccurate.
I just tested this on my Necromancer versus my Engineer and found that the Necro ticks for ~250 while my Engineer ticks for ~450

Which is more in the ballpark of 55%

Unless of course this issue is indeed caused my the scaling formula (as I predicted earlier)

I think you understand the basic concept tho….

In a nutshell….
You die twice as fast, or you live twice as fast.

scaled to the percentage view As in percentage of damage taken to your health. I just gave it another viewpoint. I know the exact amounts don’t change.

And for the tests, downed health is determined by exactly three things: whether you are in pve or pvp (we are in pve here I presume), whether your profession is necro or it isn’t necro (this is the injustice here) and your normal health (which will probably differ). I can’t really say anything about those ticks if I don’t know your maximum health. (Please note that wvw maximum health boost affects this, healing does not). And just to clarify, are those revive ticks or downed damage ticks and are your characters level 80 in level 80 zone?

Characters were both lvl 80, and were not in a level 80 zone, but I used the same zone both times, so that variable was the same in both tests.

Since I used a lower-level zone, and I experienced less of a deficit in downed HP than you did (1/2 vs 1/3) I attributed it to downscaling.

As far as WvW hp bonuses go, the same bonuses (if any) applied to both of my characters. Though, I’m not sure what effects from WvW bonuses would be seen in this experiment anyway.

If you’d like to test further, perhaps perform tests in other (non-80) areas to see if an error in the downscaling formula is indeed the culprit.

The 1/3 stands if both have same maximum health. In reality it’s closer to what you say because necromancer’s maximum health is likely to be much higher. Direct health values you have are important information. Ticks alone do not tell anything. Downscaling may or may not have effect on it.

Bump anet come on!

Here’s to hoping that ANet will give us some response.

It would be great to get acknowledgement of this bug. It’s a pretty big one.

Execrable.1064:

It would be great to get acknowledgement of this bug. It’s a pretty big one.

Monday morning’ bump to first page, I love showing off my Tier 3 Asura Robotic Arm in WvW , but hate been a liability to my group when downed!!!

Bump! This seems important.

Come on come on!

Bumping, because it is indeed important. Some kind of response would be better than none.

Still no answer, It’s huge, can we get some kind of reply from Anet?

In my roaming group in WvW, the instruction is : If a necro is downed, just DPS him down. It’s faster then finishing him, even with safe stomp.

Well looks like the bug forum is the last place we should post.

Next time, just whine in WvW or sPvP. It’s a lot faster.

Got a reply in 1 hour on the WvW forum.

While im not a necromancer but this is just sick.

As people have said there are two sides to this issue. But dieing so quickly from any attack while downed is incredibly unfair and unbalanced. If the devs wanted us to stay with this low hp then they would have to buff necro toughness in downed state massively to make up for it. Life leech can easily be tweaked to work just as well as before.

Im hoping this is fixed in the patch at the end of the month because its just completely broken. I cant make a single mistake in fractals otherwise im completely dead within seconds, whereas my teammates can make the odd mistake and then get ressed with no real difficulty.

Guaranteed that anet already knows about this, and this never gets an official acknowledgement. It will simply get snuck into a large batch of game updates, so people will not notice.

Typical Arenanet then…
We should keep bumping just in case.

Another monday’ bump for my poor necro who wants to live but don’t have the same chance as everybody else. Frail body, not enough proteins, give him some love!

GJ ANET,
patch is here but no fix for this gamebreking bug, maybe you can start to do something, or we want too much from you?