Guild Wars 2

I’m with Iceflame on this. Necro’s have been dealing with issues like this for ages and no one listened to their complaints. I say suck it up and learn to play around it like they have. Mesmer and Thief are still among the most mobile classes in the game.

If you want to make it a positive thing, make it as relearning your class or the maps all over again like it’s brand new! Want to be all doom and gloom? Wait around for 8 months til they finally get to fix it the way Warrior and Necro had to wait for fixes.

This change isn’t breaking the game, it’s making you think differently. Different concepts entirely.

Chesire.9043:

I’m with Iceflame on this. Necro’s have been dealing with issues like this for ages and no one listened to their complaints. I say suck it up and learn to play around it like they have. Mesmer and Thief are still among the most mobile classes in the game.

If you want to make it a positive thing, make it as relearning your class or the maps all over again like it’s brand new! Want to be all doom and gloom? Wait around for 8 months til they finally get to fix it the way Warrior and Necro had to wait for fixes.

This change isn’t breaking the game, it’s making you think differently. Different concepts entirely.

I disagree, and I main Necro.

The flesh wurm necro teleport works exactly like every other teleport in the game as far as pathing goes.

Spectral walk works differently but that is to our advantage.

In my opinion Necros do not need more mobility, but do need to receive a little love in a few other areas.

After personally testing all the spots I know, it seems the ones directly on a point no longer work. Keep and Clocktower for instance.

But other ledges, platforms and numerous other obstacles can still be done 100% of the time. For example: the wooden structure around Clocktower.

It’s curious, I’m awaiting an official reply from the Devs on this one.

Chesire.9043:

I’m with Iceflame on this. Necro’s have been dealing with issues like this for ages and no one listened to their complaints. I say suck it up and learn to play around it like they have. Mesmer and Thief are still among the most mobile classes in the game.

If you want to make it a positive thing, make it as relearning your class or the maps all over again like it’s brand new! Want to be all doom and gloom? Wait around for 8 months til they finally get to fix it the way Warrior and Necro had to wait for fixes.

This change isn’t breaking the game, it’s making you think differently. Different concepts entirely.

It functioned the same as all the other targetable teleports did. Minus the cast time, it also got you to other places other teleports did not, take keep for instance.

Romek.4201:

@Xeph

i cant believe what i read here from you

i remember one day some months ago when you was streaming and you testet with a staff the spot in khylo to port from outside up in the mid of the tower. i remember what you said when you finaly found it and testet it 2-3×.

you said you hope arenanet dont ban you for testing this exploit and showing it people in stream. you said thats sooo a lame port and should be hotfixed .

now after months using it its fine?

sry its lame

I also mentioned that I had thought it was an exploit, but it seemed like nothing was wrong, since when I reported the bug there was no answer from Anet, confirming the fact it was a bug; and it continued to be in the game for months after that; I also happened to mention on the stream that it wasn’t an exploit.

quoting me regarding a subject that happened over 4-5 months back, when opinions and information changes constantly, proves no point.

People have adapted play styles around this for months, to go ahead and change it now and say that it was unintended it unfair to all the people who have been using it without this information being made available prior to the change.

You’re playing advocate for what seems like unintended levels of mobility here, just because they took too long to “fix” it (for whatever reason) and now you’re used to it. If teleports are not meant to work on Z-axis or at least follow basic projectile LoS rules, you can’t say that all the teleports on Khylo were ever fair, they just made the map extremely small for some classes, while others had to walk around/do a jumping puzzle. IMO teleports should work between A and B on the Z-axis, but only if the distance you’d have to travel between A and B without teleporting is shorter than the teleport’s range. The way it is/was, you were getting way too much shortcut pretty much for free.
Also, you’re not building a good case if you start to defend excessive teleports/escape mechanics with a story on how you’re going all the way through the enemy team to train a low-mobility target and then dying cause you can’t port back through walls/ignoring pathing.

Pyriall.5027:

It functioned the same as all the other targetable teleports did. Minus the cast time, it also got you to other places other teleports did not, take keep for instance.

Flesh wurm is a LOS ignoring teleport that can teleport you up cliffs and behind walls. It’s different from your targetable ones.

Iceflame.5024:

Flesh wurm is a LOS ignoring teleport that can teleport you up cliffs and behind walls. It’s different from your targetable ones.

This is just blatant misinformation. It works exactly like every other teleport in the game in regards to pathing/LOS.

Flesh Wurm shares the same mechanic as Shadowstep as a ground-target based Shadowstep and always has.

Anyways, here’s a small clip taken from some of the testing on Khylo. There are many more and many hours was put into testing other spots as well.
http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/c/2419557

Jumper.9482:

Flesh Wurm shares the same mechanic as Shadowstep as a ground-target based Shadowstep and always has.

Anyways, here’s a small clip taken from some of the testing on Khylo. There are many more and many hours was put into testing other spots as well.
http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/c/2419557

Just by judging from that video, the Shadowstep return from the point across the stairs didn’t work because of the line-of-sight with the top of the stairs. I know that it’s still supposed to work but maybe that’s what bugged/changed about it now. The times that it did work it seemed you weren’t being LOS’d by the top of the stairs.

Regardless, I have never had issues with Shadowstepping/returning until these past 2 patches.

Also if I’m not mistaken, Shadow Return is still a 1200 distance blink towards your original location regardless of LoS.
I can still Shadow Return through buildings like through the Clocktower.

Jumper.9482:

Also if I’m not mistaken, Shadow Return is still a 1200 distance blink towards your original location regardless of LoS.
I can still Shadow Return through buildings like through the Clocktower.

It sometimes bugs out.

I’ve been testing it with clocktower and treb and “randomly” i miss the first teleport ( it will teleport and immediatly port you back, with shadow return active, as if nothing happened while the animation actually performed).

Moreover i can no longer reach eventual opponents on the ledge near Stilness buff in Temple, altough i was actually able to do so in the past ( shadowstep often misses there, also).

z-axis traveling is much more difficult after the patch, it’s kinda like a need to totally relearn the game.

This “fix” totally dumbed down the game.

That’s actually a little more severe than what I was seeing :/

I may have to retract my previous statements.

Jumper.9482:

Also if I’m not mistaken, Shadow Return is still a 1200 distance blink towards your original location regardless of LoS.
I can still Shadow Return through buildings like through the Clocktower.

Not Temple of the Silent Storm however. If you Shadow step to gate, and run up towards Temple, and Shadow Return, it won’t remove condis, and wont teleport you back, it won’t do anything. Maybe the cause of ranging it. of ranging it, however.

EDIT: A lot of player target Shadow Steps/Teleports, are very broken, because it requires them to be standing in a specific spot, and from myself.

The real frustration in all of this is he silence from Anet. No one here can say what is or is not intended as part of the bug fix. How hard it is for one of them to come in here and say this is intended, or not.

Xeph.4513:

I don’t think that this problem only applies to thieves, I think that in general the changes to ports spots around the maps, has been very unwelcome; it as completely obliterated a very interesting dynamic that was introduced to us at the start of guild wars 2.
I found this dynamic to be very refreshing as people had to memorize and understand all the different spots that you could port to.

I personally don’t think that it was necessary to nerf/change these port spots, it has done nothing but dumbed down the game, there are no more interesting port escapes or chases, it has also killed the viability of thieves on certain maps (looking at you khylo). I think that Arena net has made a mistake with this change, it was completely unwarranted and could’ve been tackled in a different manner, decreasing the port distances, potentially giving it a cool down, or giving it a totally new repercussion.

Sadly the change came at a very critical time where guild wars 2 tournament viewership has been on the rise, and one of the most enjoyable things was to watch people use these blink spots to their advantage, it saddens me that we will be seeing a lot less of that.

I really hope that arena net considers reverting this change.

I could not agree more. Well said.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Thanks for the reports, we have verified that there are indeed some issues with shadowsteps right now. We are working on a fix that will be out as soon as we are comfortable with it QA wise.

Good to know.

What about Phase Retreat on Z-axis teleport instead?

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Thanks for the reports, we have verified that there are indeed some issues with shadowsteps right now. We are working on a fix that will be out as soon as we are comfortable with it QA wise.

Thank you for a reply. Glad to see that most these “bug fixes” were not intentional.

Ah, I see the phrase “not intended.” Good.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

We are aware of Phase Retreats z-axis issues as well. As for the bug fixes on teleports, we don’t wan’t people teleporting through walls except with skills like shadow return. If you can port through a wall, then it is most likely not intended.

So essentially the intention for the patch was to stop guardians from teleporting into clocktower. Such a vital nerf, I don’t know how I would have lived with it for much longer. I don’t see why teleporting through a wall is not intended and you’re saying teleporting skills such as shadow return is intended.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

We are aware of Phase Retreats z-axis issues as well. As for the bug fixes on teleports, we don’t wan’t people teleporting through walls except with skills like shadow return. If you can port through a wall, then it is most likely not intended.

And I guess they decided this 10 months after people were doing it with next no complaints.

I honestly don’t even see how this needed “fixing” in the first place. No one ever complained about porting spots and their usage…It’s not OP by any means.

Just seems trivial to “fix” these things…almost as trivial as fixing tooltips when there are so many other balance issues in the game at the moment.

Again, the only skill I see that needed a nerf was infiltrator’s strike, which was spammable and allowed you to travel vast distances with a choice of shadowstepping right back to the original spot. (Cruuk was the prime example of using this method)

Shadowstep a a skill, needed absolutely no fixing.

Amaterasu.6280:

I honestly don’t even see how this needed “fixing” in the first place. No one ever complained about porting spots and their usage…It’s not OP by any means.

Just seems trivial to “fix” these things…almost as trivial as fixing tooltips when there are so many other balance issues in the game at the moment.

Again, the only skill I see that needed a nerf was infiltrator’s strike, which was spammable and allowed you to travel vast distances with a choice of shadowstepping right back to the original spot. (Cruuk was the prime example of using this method)

Shadowstep a a skill, needed absolutely no fixing.

It is nice to know that I’m not the only one who notices the serious amount of trivial bug fixes. Guys, here we go after a month of work we’ve rewritten 10 tooltips to accurately represent what they actually do.

So after further testing I found the new mechanic implemented to the ground-target shadowsteps/blinks. Now, on top of having distance and angle, you also have to aim the blink at the VERY top of the ledge (This was previously not a necessity). Any pixel lower and it will fail. However, Shadow Return remains to seem bugged.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

We are aware of Phase Retreats z-axis issues as well. As for the bug fixes on teleports, we don’t wan’t people teleporting through walls except with skills like shadow return. If you can port through a wall, then it is most likely not intended.

I recorded a video for you about phase retreat z-axis issues, i posted this video in the phase retreat issues thread.

I think is not clear the distintion between utility skill teleport and weapon skill teleport (like infiltrator’s arrow, phase retreat, infiltrator’s strike/shadow return etc.), if only utility skills can allow you to go above platforms (Z-axis teleport) or weapon skill teleport can do the same thing.

I think no spells need to allow you to teleport from a side to another side with a wall in the middle (like the old clock tower) but there is now a little confusion about other z-axis teleport (above platforms) for utility spells and weapon skill spells.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Thanks for the reports, we have verified that there are indeed some issues with shadowsteps right now. We are working on a fix that will be out as soon as we are comfortable with it QA wise.

See, the reason that’s funny, is that if QA testing was a big thing for you the first time around…

lol well then the game would have done like diabl. And just not launched withPvP, who am I kidding?p3

“If you can port through a wall then it is most likely not intended.”

Really? Well played hedge.

Why not just say, “Well we are aware that people are exploiting this particular feature that is not working as we thought we may possibly have intended heretofor, but we may decide at a later point in time that we meant for it to work that way all along.”

If you can’t dazzle us with brilliance, then at least make a better effort to baffle us with bullkitten.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

We are aware of Phase Retreats z-axis issues as well. As for the bug fixes on teleports, we don’t wan’t people teleporting through walls except with skills like shadow return. If you can port through a wall, then it is most likely not intended.

You also didn’t want people to grind in GW2 – does that mean that everybody will soon be able to teleport through walls?

“I’m really baffled (Angry) by this change. I can’t believe (I am p&*t offed) this is an intended “fix” (No quotation marks needed. It isn’t a quote. I think you meant to use speech marks.) for a “problem”( It is a problem if your the person tasked with stopping the thieves ability at neutralising nodes.) that added so much dynamic and interesting (Exploit) gameplay that both players (Thieve’s) and viewers (Other people who play thief.) loved!
It has kept me playing Thief (Remember what I said about thief?) after so many nerfs (Rebalances.)and made it possible to outplay (Kitten) the stronger classes (People who know how to shut down thieves quickly if they run a glassy build.) by pure knowledge of the game (Exploit.) and mechanical skill!
This has nothing to do with increasing viability( Correct,..is not about viability..it’s about parity.) of the Warrior or Necromancer. In fact, it only accomplishes the opposite. (Not true. It does not create the opposite just because you say so. Your not god, you can’t say let there be viability and on the third day it was created with the heavens and the stars.)
How can you possibly consider this a bug? (Because it is.) It has been a vital (exploitable.) part of SPvP since Beta and it is common knowledge(Was always on the priority list of things to fix. It finally got round to fixing time.). I’d go so far as to say (Please don’t..it is not fair to put words in others mouths or try to represent their views without actually knowing this is how they think or feel about it.) maps like Khylo had these mechanics in mind when they were designed.
If anything, this makes me seriously reconsider if the Developers really aim for transparency with the SOTG. (This statement is completely fair.)They couldn’t think to mention this? (Agreed. it should have been mentioned in the fixed list and stated months ago it was on a priority list, albeit if very low down.)

This is how the rest of the community that doesn’t care to play thief thinks about this.

Nice to see it will get fixed cause i personally dont care about balance!I really dont play lets say warrior so kitten em!
But i d love to see a “viable” warrior shuting down a thief with shadow return behind a gazilion walls or phase retreat (ab)using mesm right beneath the clocktower.

Sure if that thief went rambo in enemy team for 15 sec and when perma evades run out (hint:i just called em perma :P) ,shadow returned away of what is effective 4k units for normal moving classes..i ll be the first screaming OUTPLAYED!!!!! in twitch chat.
I also admit i looooove being hunted by the predators that we call s/d thieves. That feeling of 1vs1 something that can kill me in but i have no chance of catching up with or locking down unless i present myself as easy pray to extract some moments of vulnerablity from it to burst it, really really makes my heart beat

A long-term bug was eventually fixed, causing certain Thieves cry about it, leading to the possibility of the bug being unfixed.

Is that what has happened here?

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

(…) This is how the rest of the community that doesn’t care to play thief thinks about this.

Please, don’t alter my statement, my choice of words was plenty clear. Hell, at least quote my post if you want me to reply to your nonsensical babbling. Allow me to, anyways.
“I would go so far as to say (…)”. Take note of the “I” as in me, I am not putting words into anyone’s mouth here. If anyone is, you are!
Besides you completely contradict your primary opinion, about this being a bug, by agreeing the developers were not clear about the matter.

As far as parity goes, why would you want all classes being equal on all terms? What is the point of having different classes if they all have the exact same mechanics and stats…
This thread is not about the Thief alone. It is about the mobility of all classes.

Quite frankly, I don’t agree with this change and I hope it can be toned down to make shadowsteps functional again, without them being abusive. It makes the game shallower at the moment.
If it wasn’t intended it should have been made clear and it could have been announced that it was being “fixed”.

I don’t understand why certain spots are still functional and others aren’t, though. There are sudden imbalances now where the red side can jump walls and the blue side cannot, for example.
Also, Shadow Return, which is by far the most defensively strong has not been balanced at all…

I can officially say this “fix” totally broke inf strike.

Now half of the time i try to reach a player with a slight “LoS” obstruction ( it can even be the rock at bear in Spirit Watch) or in z-axis, it will fail.

It’s totally random, i’m actually afraid to use inf strike-return, because i won’t know if it will work or not.

Enmity.3428:

A long-term bug was eventually fixed, causing certain Thieves cry about it, leading to the possibility of the bug being unfixed.

Is that what has happened here?

No it isn’t.
In fact, there were 3 spots where you were able to port through walls in clocktower. Two of those were “fixed”, the last one wasn’t (hint: the point>roof one); and in the meantime a most of other legit spots, where no walls were involved, got “fixed” too. Now they are either harder to pull off (more sensitive to angle/distance/positioning) or are just plain impossible.

Mrbig.8019:

I can officially say this “fix” totally broke inf strike.

Now half of the time i try to reach a player with a slight “LoS” obstruction ( it can even be the rock at bear in Spirit Watch) or in z-axis, it will fail.

It’s totally random, i’m actually afraid to use inf strike-return, because i won’t know if it will work or not.

Exactly; what makes Inf. Strike different from Heartseeker is that it can cross obstacles (like the huts on Khylo or higher ground). If they take that away I feel it would lose its uniqueness.

But one thing is sure, the mechanics of the shadowsteps have to be a lot more transparent so a player can tell when they will work and when they won’t, just like with any other gap closer/opener.

Mrbig.8019:

I can officially say this “fix” totally broke inf strike.

Now half of the time i try to reach a player with a slight “LoS” obstruction ( it can even be the rock at bear in Spirit Watch) or in z-axis, it will fail.

It’s totally random, i’m actually afraid to use inf strike-return, because i won’t know if it will work or not.

There may be bug regarding teleports in general, but that’s still not to say that Inf St/SR need to be re-evaluated. That skill in general was over the top.

Thanks, but I posted about this issue ages ago and stated that the nerfing (fixing?) of abilities like SReturn would result in buggy patching issues which would ultimately lead to the demise of the “fix”. Or that it should, anyways.

Mrbig.8019:

I can officially say this “fix” totally broke inf strike.

Now half of the time i try to reach a player with a slight “LoS” obstruction ( it can even be the rock at bear in Spirit Watch) or in z-axis, it will fail.

It’s totally random, i’m actually afraid to use inf strike-return, because i won’t know if it will work or not.

Yeah the LoS obstruction doesn’t only effect Inf Strike however. Inf Sig, and steal were greatly effected. Trying to use Inf sig from one of the side ledges on Foefire, it won’t work. It’s as if my target was out of line of sight, even though I’m standing directly at the ledge.

As d/p it feels like it is not even worth using Inf sig anymore(I used to love it for 1800+range burst combo) I should just switch to assassin’s sig. Obviously being obstructed in plain sight is not intended and this should be fixed.

Here is one. Displays that I used Infiltrators’ Signet and then Steal. Infiltrator did not shadowstep me, and steal could not work.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/1cn8af6.jpg[/img]

And here is the second ledge that goes into mid on Foefire. Same situation.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/TaDRpWr.jpg[/img]

If anyone is interested that Infiltrators’ Sig is broken I will try to get more screen shots on more maps.

Aleth.9630:

Enmity.3428:

A long-term bug was eventually fixed, causing certain Thieves cry about it, leading to the possibility of the bug being unfixed.

Is that what has happened here?

No it isn’t.
In fact, there were 3 spots where you were able to port through walls in clocktower. Two of those were “fixed”, the last one wasn’t (hint: the point>roof one); and in the meantime a most of other legit spots, where no walls were involved, got “fixed” too. Now they are either harder to pull off (more sensitive to angle/distance/positioning) or are just plain impossible.

I have no sympathy. Personally, I think teleporting through walls or any other solid structure is utter bollocks and I’m glad some of these abusive and exploitative maneuvers have been fixed. I’m also glad these other “legit spots” have become harder to hit. So, they require some skill to achieve now. Poor you. What do you want, easy-mode all the way? Heaven forbid they actually make something harder for you, eh?

“But ArenaNet knew about these exploits and didn’t do anything about them…” Well now they have, so dry your eyes.

And … double posting, please forgive (or not, you can hate, that’s fine!). But on the subject of RNG / less skill-based game play.

How about pet AI? That’s STILL pretty played FOR the player if you ask me. Can’t find where that thief or mesmer, (and now engi because they obviously needed stealth to go with their automated 0 skill requirement turrets) stealthed off to? Worry not, I will locate them FOR you!

Why are there classes that you simply summon things to fight for you, that are COMPLETELY automated? I fail to see how having uncontrolled AI playing for a player is somehow even REMOTELY skill related.

“Because it requires timing and knowing when to do it” What, in the middle of spamming clones … phantasms … illusions … oh wait that’s 100% of the time they’re fighting.

How about Engi’s having turrets that snare you, knock you down, and heal their team for them? I’m reminded of “Just set it, and forget it.” Because it requires 0 thought process and that translates to me 0 skill aside from “knowing when to use it!” (How difficult that really is, lawl)

And while it’s not frequently used … Spirit Weapons on a Guardian, completely automated knockback and dps! Or how about the forest spirit zoo that rangers summon, then again, those are pretty worthless and hardly worth mentioning as they fall in line with how unpolished this game realistically is. IE: They aren’t balanced / tuned well enough to be used often, like … I don’t know … 75% of everything else in this game?

Well I did have a double post, but apparently Arenanet’s feelings were deeply hurt by the OBVIOUS truth of how they are not doing a very good job and the fact I simply pointed it out.

I even purposely typed kitten! shrugs “Help keep this positive” or help keep players blind to the truth of your failures, you mean? -_-

Enmity.3428:

Aleth.9630:

Enmity.3428:

A long-term bug was eventually fixed, causing certain Thieves cry about it, leading to the possibility of the bug being unfixed.

Is that what has happened here?

No it isn’t.
In fact, there were 3 spots where you were able to port through walls in clocktower. Two of those were “fixed”, the last one wasn’t (hint: the point>roof one); and in the meantime a most of other legit spots, where no walls were involved, got “fixed” too. Now they are either harder to pull off (more sensitive to angle/distance/positioning) or are just plain impossible.

I have no sympathy. Personally, I think teleporting through walls or any other solid structure is utter bollocks and I’m glad some of these abusive and exploitative maneuvers have been fixed. I’m also glad these other “legit spots” have become harder to hit. So, they require some skill to achieve now. Poor you. What do you want, easy-mode all the way? Heaven forbid they actually make something harder for you, eh?

“But ArenaNet knew about these exploits and didn’t do anything about them…” Well now they have, so dry your eyes.

You don’t seem to understand. We’re not talking about “legit spots being harder”, it will miss half of the time even if you aim PERFECTLY.

Teleport returns such shadow return and similar, will miss half of the time if there’s a single rock obstructing the way, or a starway.

z-axis travel has become ridicolous, i can’t even reach players on ledges at the center of foefire without experiencing random misses.

THIS IS GAMEBREAKING.

All viable thief attacks are teleports ( shadow shot, inf signet, inf strike, steal, shadow step) and it’s VITAL for thieves to have these attacks fully functional.

Now i die twice as more due to simply missing teleports/shadow returns and it’s ridicolous.

Any updates on fixing this would be optimal.

Its making me look a fool out there, help!

I don’t think it’s fair that Thieves and Mesmers have to deal with LoS issues like every other class in the game.

That’s pretty much the only thing I’m getting from this entire thread.

I do believe that the teleports are glitchy and should be looked at, but what people are asking for is like listening to a spoiled 3yr wanting a piece of candy and throwing a tantrum because it can’t have it.

Enmity.3428:

Aleth.9630:

Enmity.3428:

A long-term bug was eventually fixed, causing certain Thieves cry about it, leading to the possibility of the bug being unfixed.

Is that what has happened here?

No it isn’t.
In fact, there were 3 spots where you were able to port through walls in clocktower. Two of those were “fixed”, the last one wasn’t (hint: the point>roof one); and in the meantime a most of other legit spots, where no walls were involved, got “fixed” too. Now they are either harder to pull off (more sensitive to angle/distance/positioning) or are just plain impossible.

I have no sympathy. Personally, I think teleporting through walls or any other solid structure is utter bollocks and I’m glad some of these abusive and exploitative maneuvers have been fixed. I’m also glad these other “legit spots” have become harder to hit. So, they require some skill to achieve now. Poor you. What do you want, easy-mode all the way? Heaven forbid they actually make something harder for you, eh?

“But ArenaNet knew about these exploits and didn’t do anything about them…” Well now they have, so dry your eyes.

Your post just can be tl;dr as “I hate telports, I’m glad they were nerfed and I don’t care about its effects on the gameplay of others.”

Who on earth said anything about skill? They require very exact spots, where you cannot always get to in the middle of being focused down, taht has nothing to do with skill.
And we complain, because ANET’s intention was obviously not nerfing the normal teleport spots into oblivion RNG bullkitten.
I don’t mind making things harder for me as long as the others have their job harder too. But they obviously don’t.

And what’s the point of the 10y.o. stop QQ kind of paragraph at the end? I thought mature people discussing things don’t use that argument.

This belongs in the bug forum, and its bug status is debatable at best.