Guild Wars 2

So I created this thread over at gw2guru.com: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/82090-improvisation-overlooked/

Basically, I was querying why no-one used the improvisation trait in the Deadly Arts line when it improves damage by 10% when holding a bundle.

The exact wording of the trait is “Stealing recharges all skills of one type (venoms, signets, traps, tricks, or deceptions). Deal 10% more damage while wielding a bundle.”

I was curious as to whether holding a stolen item was considered the same as holding a bundle, and according to the official wiki, it is: “Thieves have stolen skills, which are also considered bundles, but function separately from normal bundles.”

However one kind player who read my thread took the time to test this trait in the mists, with and without a stolen item, and found it made no damage increase. He suggested I log this as a bug because, according to the definitions on the wiki, we should gain a 10% damage increase when carrying stolen items. This also seems to make more sense to the profession itself, as a trait that gives a 20% chance to recharge some skills every steal, and improves the damage of bundle items (to which the thief has none, assuming you ignore stolen items) doesn’t really make much sense.

We have yet to test whether it simply improves the damage of the stolen items by 10% on use, but I have a feeling that either it functions this way and the wording is misleading, or the trait is simply bugged.

Can anyone (hopefully a dev) shed any light on this?

Thanks all

UPDATE here is a quote from the same person who tested the trait for me:

“It does not improve the damage of stolen items.

I stole some whirling axes from the warrior in the mists to test if their damage is increased. Same setup as before. Whirling Axe hits for 33 and crits for 59 using Improvisation and hits 34 and crits for 62 with dagger training. Just for the comparison I used 20 DA with mug but without choosing a master trait and ended up with 33/59 again.

@Majigor: You can update the bug report I guess :/ "

So it looks like improvisation does not add any damage to stolen items, or to attacks while carrying one. The only thing we haven’t tested at this point is actual bundle items like elementalist conjured weapons, but this has raised some interesting points. Notably, that dagger training increases the damage of stolen items, and that improvisation (assuming it actually isn’t bugged and only adds damage to bundle weapons like ele conjured weapons) is possibly the most redundant thief trait of them all (even accounting for last refuge). We seriously need our traits to be looked at.

UPDATE "So it sounds like the items thieves steal simply aren’t considered to be “bundles” by the game mechanics.
Improv’s 10% definitely works on bundle weapons such as the experimental pack weapons you pick up for the Jormag event.
At least it did last time I tested (maybe a week before the march 26th patch). "

So it was tested by one of the forum posters, and yes, it only affects bundle items, of which thieves have none (as apparently stolen items are not being calculated as bundles). This is a high ranking deadly arts trait. This is clearly badly designed.

Any idea if this is planned to be changed, or if it really is a bug?

Just had an interesting thought before stumbling over this…
Warriors leg specialist does affect arrow carts. Using a siege weapon is considered holding a bundle…
Does this trait work on siege?

naphack.9346:

Just had an interesting thought before stumbling over this…
Warriors leg specialist does affect arrow carts. Using a siege weapon is considered holding a bundle…
Does this trait work on siege?

I’m not sure about the siege, but it is a good point and worth testing

I do have a bit more info however. One of the forum posters saw the thread and said the following:

“It’s because you used to (in beta) be able to steal bundles from opponents. Stealing from an Oakheart would net you a branch bundle you could use to smack someone else around with. This was later removed when they revamped steal because nobody used it. My guess is that they left it on the trait because Improvisation was so under-used anyway, that it didn’t hurt anybody. "

So this explains it. It was due to an old, beta mechanic which was removed before the game launched (I played beta but don’t remember this lol). This still serves to highlight that we have a redundant trait however, and if Any devs see this I would like to request the thread get moved to the suggestions section (I don’t think I can move them myself?).

It seems silly leaving in a trait when it refers to a mechanic that was removed before the game launched. Furthermore, the trait is pretty much useless even when we have access to bundles, as we rely so much on our weapon skills anyway (most thief builds focus around certain weapon skills) so we are less likely to use bundles than other classes.

This means we essentially have 1 less trait than we should, which seems a bit unfair, so I would like to suggest it gets replaced. In fact, I think thief traits in general could do with a bit of love as we seem to have been pidgeon-holed into only using certain ones, and some of these are simply out of not having better ones available (Power of inertia, I’m looking at you).

Hello Anet,

the last big skill/trait patch seems to have missed this one here
would be nice to get some claryfication

the 10% bonus dmg is not working for stolen stuff (F1) or other skills when you have stolen something
also if you don´t have utilities of all 5 types equiped the recharge sometimes wont happen at all it´s recharging a not even equiped utility I guess

Best regards
Eiffel

yes also noticed that it doesnt work 100%, the skill recharge part. it refreshes trap cooldown very randomly, highly annoying. hope this gets fixed soon.

has this trait been in the game since the beginning? and still goes unfixed?

This really needs to be looked into. I truly believe when this skill was conceived they intended for the thief’s “steal mechanic” to trigger the damage bonus, whether or not the actual “steal” profession skill was as developed as it currently is and “stolen bundles” deviated from “true bundles” really is not the issue.

The issue at hand is that Deadly Arts trait line major VII (Improvisation) DOES NOT WORK with thief game play:
1. As claimed earlier, any profession relies HEAVILY, some even solely, on weapon skills over bundles.
2. The trait is obviously supposed to be a “steal” spec, I mean…. the active 1/2 of the skill triggers on a THIEF’S steal… not when u pick up a “true bundle”.
3. The utter LACK of bundles laying around in either WvW, SPvP maps, or PvE. With only slightly more usage than what one can call “highly limited”, it doesn’t make real sense that they would develop a trait that when selected to use over other various other traits that proc again and again in single (and depending on the trait, relatively short duration) fights it would only possibly be utilized “every now and then”.
4. It makes more sense and the entire trait tree becomes more elegant when the 10% bonus to outgoing damage is triggered by holding a “THIEF STOLEN BUNDLE”. There are trait after trait after trait that add damage, crit chance, etc. when the “potential combat reserve” is maxed/utilized in a more fluid than bursty manner. i.e. First Strikes (10% dmg, Init > 6), Keen Observer (5% crit%, HP > 90%), Lead Attacks (1% dmg per Init), etc…

Does anyone know if this has already been looked into?

Any hope of this being addressed this month? Nothing remotely close in the “leaked patch notes.” I’m not holding out hope, but this is a Necro-level of neglect for a very, very broken trait.

Any info on this issue? Anet rolling out fixes for warriors and engineers less than a week after breaking them. While this been unnoticed for 6 months now. Makes me feel like a less worthy consumer…

i think it should work with stolen skill. What is more, this trait should not be random

Any update on this?

When looking at new build options for post dec 10 patch, this + the 25 point minor skill make taking 30 DA over 30 CS ALMOST worth it, since CS will no longer be the ini powerhouse it once was (but still retains all its great DPS). Any reason to go more than 10 into DA would be greatly appreciated, and a situational +10% damage while conserving your steal bundle would go a long way towards that.

I, too, would like an update. This bug has been around since release (actually, since BW3), and has gone unaddressed. Escalated three months ago, so one would expect at least an update, if not an outright fix.

i was just testing this trait after the 10 dec update and it still seems to be bugged. i used all deception utility’s and when i used steal it would only some times recharge the deception utility’s but hardly ever would it recharge them. and i see no increase in damage from the 10% extra damage. will this be fixed soon or in the next update??

Necroing this thread… Is this working now?

Nope. This is one of the most categorically useless traits in existence. +10% damage under a set of conditions you’ll basically never meet; Recharge a skill you probably don’t even have equipped.

Change/fix/remove

Narrrz.7532:

Nope. This is one of the most categorically useless traits in existence. +10% damage under a set of conditions you’ll basically never meet; Recharge a skill you probably don’t even have equipped.

Change/fix/remove

Well, it is +10% damage while wielding a Frost Bow or Fiery Greatsword… in that regard, it’s certainly not bad.

If you don’t have your own pet Elementalist yet, what are you waiting for?

slavery to be re-legalized.

From the description I wouldn’t think just having a stolen item would increase your damage. That would be pretty OP tbh. You could basically almost always have +10% damage as long as you have something stolen in queue. I’d think holding things like shovels or elementalist weapons would count as bundles that increase damage.

And I don’t think it’s a bug that it doesn’t recharge anything you have equipped. A lot of the long cooldown skills could be abused if it guaranteed recharge on at least one type of utility you’re using. Permastealth would be soooo easy! Everything would be easy. Venom cheese. Trick imba mad hops edition. So much speedy cooldown cheese!

Think of the description of the skill. Rather than encouraging you to use only one type of utility it encourages you to use three different types. It’s “Improvisation” so the idea is you don’t know which skill will recharge so it’ll be on the fly.

But I’m in total agreement that it’s a trait that people rarely think is worth equipping. I’ve never used it myself.

Josh Davis.6015:

Hey folks,

I’ve escalated this to the appropriate team.

Thanks!

Please don’t let them “fix” the cooldown reset issue. It’ll be thief cheese for breakfast lunch and dinner. And I just might be tempted to be one of the thieves who serves that cheese!

Make us work for our thief cheese, please!

Well, I hope they leave the original functionality in if they update the trait. I’m sure I’m in the minority, but there are a few bundle weapons I love using (Claw of Jormag’s flamethrower, the frost and lightning rifles in Mount Maelstrom). 10% Damage from this plus 15% from the Initiative I’m not using makes them all the more attractive.

I think we just should survive for a few months now, because in HoT it will probably get a rework!