Guild Wars 2

Hi Anet.

Thank you for offering the character slot for free with the pre-purchase of HoT.

I prepurchased the Ultimate version of HoT and I am slightly concerned with the recent announcements (a character slot included with all prepurchased versions of the game) that what I have paid for has changed and I am not getting a good deal anymore, or what I paid for.

My reasoning is based on the fact that I have bought a character slot, and that now I will be receiving a character slot for free as well – I have no use for a 10th character slot, I only want to have 9 slots (one per profession).

If the character slot is given for free it means that for me I have paid for the gems at practically no discount. I not would of made the purchase if this had been the case at the point of purchase. Please see my working below:

£34.99 for Standard + £42.50 for 4000 gems = 77.49

This would mean I paid £2.50 for the Glider, the decoration token, the miniature and the finisher.

I know the working is not perfect, but originally the gems I was buying were advertised as costing £20. Now that the character slot is offered for free (and I have one I have no use for another one) they essentially cost full price which I’m not happy about.

I am happy to support Anet in the development of this excellent game. But I do feel that unless I raise this issue I may be treated unfairly.

I hope I’ve explained myself clearly,

Thank you.

You can contact the CS Team for a refund. You can find the refund policy/article in the Knowledge Base accessed through the ‘Support’ link above/below.

Good luck.

Thanks, I have done!

So instead of getting:

HoT
1 character slot
1 miniature
1 glider skin
1 guild hall decoration
4000 gems

you are getting the following because you’re a veteran for no extra charge:

HoT
2 character slots
1 miniature
1 glider skin
1 guild hall decoration
4000 gems.

I’m not seeing how what you’re getting means you’re losing money. You’re actually getting more bang for your buck.

Which means your option 1 is void as you’ve not lost any money.

And your option 2 is just ludicrous. You’re asking ANet to give you the Ultimate package for the Deluxe price?!

Hi Seera.5916, thank you for letting me clarify.

If I had known that I would get a character slot for free with the Standard Edition at the time of purchase I would not have paid an extra £45 for a further character slot, 4000 gems (which were advertised as being sold at a discount), a miniture, glider skin and guild hall decoration.

As stated above, I have no use for a 10th character slot whatsoever.

My issue is with the change of terms here, I paid for 4000 gems at a discount. Essentially if you give me a character slot for free I’ve paid full price for the gems and gained a character slot that is of absolutely no use to me.

I would not have paid for the Ultimate edition under these terms, I would have bought Standard. Again, my problem is that what I have paid for has changed and is no longer a good deal to me.

The resolution I’ve posted here is one which I would be happy to accept and allows Anet to keep the Ultimate payment I’ve made for further development of the game. Suiting the both of us.

Jim.9532:

Hi Seera.5916, thank you for letting me clarify.

If I had known that I would get a character slot for free with the Standard Edition at the time of purchase I would not have paid an extra £45 for a further character slot, 4000 gems (which were advertised as being sold at a discount), a miniture, glider skin and guild hall decoration.

As stated above, I have no use for a 10th character slot whatsoever.

My issue is with the change of terms here, I paid for 4000 gems at a discount. Essentially if you give me a character slot for free I’ve paid full price for the gems and gained a character slot that is of absolutely no use to me.

I would not have paid for the Ultimate edition under these terms, I would have bought Standard. Again, my problem is that what I have paid for has changed and is no longer a good deal to me.

The resolution I’ve posted here is one which I would be happy to accept and allows Anet to keep the Ultimate payment I’ve made for further development of the game. Suiting the both of us.

But they didn’t remove anything so you didn’t lose money by the change. They aren’t going to give you more gems in exchange for the character slot. You would have to refund the entire Ultimate collection and if you used any of the gifts from that, you’re probably out of luck (namely unlocking the mini and using the character slot or buying any account upgrades or using items purchased with the $4000 gems). And then buy the Standard edition. Forfeiting all of the extra goodies.

I’ll wait for a response. I refuse to accept that my grievance isn’t valid. The resolution was a suggestion from my side. I will be interested to see what Anet propose to resolve this issue as the specific circumstances surrounding this issue weren’t mentioned in the news post, but I think will be fairly common.

Seera.5916:

But they didn’t remove anything so you didn’t lose money by the change.

Actually I did, because if the terms clear from the beginning I would have purchased Standard, not Ultimate. A saving of £45 (more than the cost of standard).

One of the reasons I didn’t prepurchase Standard is because it didn’t come with a character slot. I paid more because I wanted one. Now I’m getting a second character slot which I don’t need or want. I’ve paid more for something I don’t need, without being told before hand what I was paying for.

For clarity, the other reason I didn’t buy Standard is because the discounted gems were of interest to me. However understanding the current terms as I do now, I would not have bought Ultimate, I would of bought Standard. This is my grievance.

I’m on the same boat right now, I bought the Ultimate Edition because it was really a good deal if you needed a character slot and did some maths about the gems.

With the recent changes, the Ultimate Edition is only a good deal if you need two character slots. If you have no use for a second additional character slot though, the Ultimate Edition is just pure luxury, that I wouldn’t even have thought about buying if I had known beforehand, that the Standard Edition comes with an extra character slot.

I really don’t get why this is so hard to understand. Asking about a refund here is completely reasonable, nobody could’ve known that Anet would change the content of the different editions afterwards. Which is also the reason why probably everyone that bought the Ultimate Edition instantly unlocked the Mini and the Finisher and the Glider Skin. Because why should you fill your inventory with this stuff, if it’s account bound anyway? Excluding people from a refund because they unlocked Minis is bullkitten in my opinion.

Thanks for the input and support on this AzureSky. I have a feeling there are many who feel the same way.

I just got an e-mail from the GW2 support, they understood my problem and are willing to help me out. They’ll remove my Ultimate Edition and give me a refund, then I can buy the Standard Edition afterwards. So if anyone is in a similar situation – contact support and they’ll definitely help you out.
Thanks again for the awesome support!

Jim.9532:

Seera.5916:

But they didn’t remove anything so you didn’t lose money by the change.

Actually I did, because if the terms clear from the beginning I would have purchased Standard, not Ultimate. A saving of £45 (more than the cost of standard).

One of the reasons I didn’t prepurchase Standard is because it didn’t come with a character slot. I paid more because I wanted one. Now I’m getting a second character slot which I don’t need or want. I’ve paid more for something I don’t need, without being told before hand what I was paying for.

For clarity, the other reason I didn’t buy Standard is because the discounted gems were of interest to me. However understanding the current terms as I do now, I would not have bought Ultimate, I would of bought Standard. This is my grievance.

That doesn’t change the fact that they did not remove anything from the Ultimate package when they decided to give veteran players an additional character slot in addition to any the package they chose had.

Ultimate Package before hand comes with:

HoT
GW2 for those without it
1 minature
1 glider skin
1 guild hall decoration
1 character slot
4000 gems

Ultimate Package after the announcement comes with:

HoT
GW2 for those without it
1 minature
1 glider skin
1 guild hall decoration
1 character slot
4000 gems

The exact same thing! They did not remove anything. They added something to the deal for veterans for all editions. Yes, that something changed which version was the ideal for you. But that does not mean they took anything from you.

And they do not have to do anything for you. If they did, car companies would have a nice dilemma. I buy a car on June 30. On July 1st they start offering a better sale. If I had known there was going to be a better sale, I would have waited. I can’t take the car back and be guaranteed that the dealer will let me switch out the deals.

You gambled that there would not be a better deal in the future. You lost the gamble. Even those buying today are gambling that there won’t be a better deal in the future as well.

You can contact support and see what they’ll do, but I guarantee that they won’t do any of the options you posted in the first post. They didn’t remove anything from the deals so they don’t owe you something in exchange. And you have to be crazy to think that they’ll give you the Ultimate Package for the Deluxe Package price.

Seera, we won’t agree here. I’m no Lawyer but I feel this is against trading standards here in the UK. I quote the following in support of my plight

AzureSky.3175:

I just got an e-mail from the GW2 support, they understood my problem and are willing to help me out. They’ll remove my Ultimate Edition and give me a refund, then I can buy the Standard Edition afterwards. So if anyone is in a similar situation – contact support and they’ll definitely help you out.
Thanks again for the awesome support!

All the best

Anet already let you have 2 choices. Keep the package you have, or refund the package. You’re getting an extra slot. So they aren’t giving that slot for free. You’ll have 2.

Anything else they won’t do. End of story.

For those interested and affected by this issue, instead of arguing in the account forum there is an ongoing discussion that can be found here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Extra-Toon-Slot-is-nice-but/

Jim.9532:

Seera, we won’t agree here. I’m no Lawyer but I feel this is against trading standards here in the UK. I quote the following in support of my plight

AzureSky.3175:

I just got an e-mail from the GW2 support, they understood my problem and are willing to help me out. They’ll remove my Ultimate Edition and give me a refund, then I can buy the Standard Edition afterwards. So if anyone is in a similar situation – contact support and they’ll definitely help you out.
Thanks again for the awesome support!

All the best

And that is not one of the solutions you said you wanted to happen in your OP. Nor have you said if that would be an acceptable solution.

And it’s against the law for companies to add to deals after it goes live? I highly doubt that.

After much speculation about how Anet customer services would act on the issue I have been refunded the 10th character slot that I didn’t need for 800 gems. I think I’m satisfied with this. As for my requests in the original posts (now edited out) they may have been a little unreasonable but a guy’s gotta try! At the time of posting I couldn’t see anyone else on the forums, or talking about this problem.

Seera, your lack of understanding on this issue baffles me. It appears Anet do understand. Aside from legality they don’t want to upset the players. Anet can see that their behaviour around this release has not been ideal and they are making amends by offering various refunds. A commendable move.

If you’re interested a Guide from the trading standards website it is here:

http://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/digital/consumer-protection-from-unfair-trading

Of particular interest in this case are titled “Misleading Actions” and “What Remedies are Available to the Customer”

Seera.5916:

The exact same thing! They did not remove anything. They added something to the deal for veterans for all editions. Yes, that something changed which version was the ideal for you. But that does not mean they took anything from you.

Nobody ever said that Anet took anything from them. The point is that everyone has to decide for himself which edition they want to buy. For me, the Ultimate Edition was clearly the best choice in the former versions. In the new versions though, the Standard Edition is the best choice. If they should suddenly decide to remove the free character slots again tomorrow, I’d switch back to the Ultimate Edition, because it would be the best choice for me again!

And they do not have to do anything for you. If they did, car companies would have a nice dilemma. I buy a car on June 30. On July 1st they start offering a better sale. If I had known there was going to be a better sale, I would have waited. I can’t take the car back and be guaranteed that the dealer will let me switch out the deals.
You gambled that there would not be a better deal in the future. You lost the gamble. Even those buying today are gambling that there won’t be a better deal in the future as well.

And this is just bullkitten and completely off-topic. Almost all consumer goods will be worth much less after you owned them for a certain amount of time. Almost every game published in 2015 will be available for half the price in 2017. Everyone knows that, nobody complains about that and nobody is “gambling” on that.
But this here is not a purchase, it’s a pre-purchase, and as such, a customer can expect that the product will not experience any significant content changes from what is advertised, and that the product will not experience any price reduction until the day it gets released. Trust me, Heart of Thornes will only start to get cheaper after it is released, so we don’t gamble on anything here.

AzureSky.3175:

Seera.5916:

The exact same thing! They did not remove anything. They added something to the deal for veterans for all editions. Yes, that something changed which version was the ideal for you. But that does not mean they took anything from you.

Nobody ever said that Anet took anything from them. The point is that everyone has to decide for himself which edition they want to buy. For me, the Ultimate Edition was clearly the best choice in the former versions. In the new versions though, the Standard Edition is the best choice. If they should suddenly decide to remove the free character slots again tomorrow, I’d switch back to the Ultimate Edition, because it would be the best choice for me again!

And they do not have to do anything for you. If they did, car companies would have a nice dilemma. I buy a car on June 30. On July 1st they start offering a better sale. If I had known there was going to be a better sale, I would have waited. I can’t take the car back and be guaranteed that the dealer will let me switch out the deals.
You gambled that there would not be a better deal in the future. You lost the gamble. Even those buying today are gambling that there won’t be a better deal in the future as well.

And this is just bullkitten and completely off-topic. Almost all consumer goods will be worth much less after you owned them for a certain amount of time. Almost every game published in 2015 will be available for half the price in 2017. Everyone knows that, nobody complains about that and nobody is “gambling” on that.
But this here is not a purchase, it’s a pre-purchase, and as such, a customer can expect that the product will not experience any significant content changes from what is advertised, and that the product will not experience any price reduction until the day it gets released. Trust me, Heart of Thornes will only start to get cheaper after it is released, so we don’t gamble on anything here.

OP edited his first post. Things said are now removed. (He did state things were taken from him.)

AzureSky.3175:

Seera.5916:

The exact same thing! They did not remove anything. They added something to the deal for veterans for all editions. Yes, that something changed which version was the ideal for you. But that does not mean they took anything from you.

Nobody ever said that Anet took anything from them. The point is that everyone has to decide for himself which edition they want to buy. For me, the Ultimate Edition was clearly the best choice in the former versions. In the new versions though, the Standard Edition is the best choice. If they should suddenly decide to remove the free character slots again tomorrow, I’d switch back to the Ultimate Edition, because it would be the best choice for me again!

And they do not have to do anything for you. If they did, car companies would have a nice dilemma. I buy a car on June 30. On July 1st they start offering a better sale. If I had known there was going to be a better sale, I would have waited. I can’t take the car back and be guaranteed that the dealer will let me switch out the deals.
You gambled that there would not be a better deal in the future. You lost the gamble. Even those buying today are gambling that there won’t be a better deal in the future as well.

And this is just bullkitten and completely off-topic. Almost all consumer goods will be worth much less after you owned them for a certain amount of time. Almost every game published in 2015 will be available for half the price in 2017. Everyone knows that, nobody complains about that and nobody is “gambling” on that.
But this here is not a purchase, it’s a pre-purchase, and as such, a customer can expect that the product will not experience any significant content changes from what is advertised, and that the product will not experience any price reduction until the day it gets released. Trust me, Heart of Thornes will only start to get cheaper after it is released, so we don’t gamble on anything here.

The OP did initially claim ANet took something from him.

And it’s not off topic as I was talking short term. Not long term.

Jim.9532:

After much speculation about how Anet customer services would act on the issue I have been refunded the 10th character slot that I didn’t need for 800 gems. I think I’m satisfied with this. As for my requests in the original posts (now edited out) they may have been a little unreasonable but a guy’s gotta try! At the time of posting I couldn’t see anyone else on the forums, or talking about this problem.

Seera, your lack of understanding on this issue baffles me. It appears Anet do understand. Aside from legality they don’t want to upset the players. Anet can see that their behaviour around this release has not been ideal and they are making amends by offering various refunds. A commendable move.

Never said they would do nothing. Just that they weren’t going to do the two options you posted in the OP.

Seera.5916:

And it’s not off topic as I was talking short term. Not long term.

It’s still off-topic since there’s a huge difference between buying a car and pre-purchasing a car. That whole paragraph you typed didn’t relate to the situation OP is talking about in any way.

I will say this, if the only reason you bought the Ultimate Edition was for the character slot, why did you not buy the Deluxe Edition instead? In included everything except the 4000 gems (which in essence you paid $25 instead of their normal $50).

Also your arguments that you are “paying” for the second character slot is completely invalid as it is included only for those who registered the game on or before 23 January 2015. In truth you could have bought the standard edition and paid $10 for the 800 necessary gems to get a 9th character slot (thus spending $60), however, you chose to buy the Ultimate Edition on your own, thus your grievance should be with yourself.

I will say that giving you the 800 gems for the additional character slot is a nice move by ArenaNet.

AzureSky.3175:

Seera.5916:

And it’s not off topic as I was talking short term. Not long term.

It’s still off-topic since there’s a huge difference between buying a car and pre-purchasing a car. That whole paragraph you typed didn’t relate to the situation OP is talking about in any way.

Yes there are differences, but there are also similarities. Pre-purchasing a game and buying a car both tend to require either knowledge that this is the perfect car/game for you or enough sweet deals added on to make you buy the car or pre-purchase the game. And not everyone falls for those sweet deals. And those sweet deals can change. And when they do change, the company is under no obligation to do anything about it. It’s those similarities that I’m pointing to, not their differences.

Obviously ANet is letting veterans get refunded for the entire price of the Deluxe and/or Ultimate and buy the Standard, but none of those options were what the OP was asking for. And it was what the OP was asking for that I said wasn’t going to happen, not that ANet wasn’t going to do anything.

The OP also edited out the options he initially posted. They were:

He originally asked to be given gems in addition to the 4000 he bought with Ultimate to make up for the free character slot being added.

And he said if that wasn’t doable that he wanted to be refunded $25 but keep all of the goodies that the Ultimate version had.

Seera.5916:

Pre-purchasing a game and buying a car both tend to require either knowledge that this is the perfect car/game for you or enough sweet deals added on to make you buy the car or pre-purchase the game. And not everyone falls for those sweet deals. And those sweet deals can change. And when they do change, the company is under no obligation to do anything about it. It’s those similarities that I’m pointing to, not their differences.

There may be sweet deals that change if you buy something. Everyone knows that.
There may be sweet deals if you pre-purchase, but they do NOT change. And what you buy does NOT change until you finally get what you pre-purchased. Otherwise you could pre-purchase my car and then I decide to remove the wheels and exchange the engine for a cup of instant noodles before I deliver it to you. But Anet (or ncsoft?) did change the deal for veterans, they changed the product that they pre-purchased, and thus it is completely acceptable if people want to cancel their deal and pre-purchase another version, or ask for different solutions. Pre-purchases may. not. change. until they are “delivered” (that’s why the free character slot for veterans isn’t advertised anywhere), and you can be absolutely sure that there will not be any other changing “sweet deals” until HoT is released.

Seera.5916:

He originally asked to be given gems in addition to the 4000 he bought with Ultimate to make up for the free character slot being added.

He asked to be given 400 additional gems, and he didn’t just pick a random amount here, but the exact amount that a person buying the Ultimate Edition, to whom the second character slot and the goodies from the Deluxe Edition are ‘worthless’, would need to break even and don’t feel like they made the worse deal now, that an extra character slot has been added to the Standard version.

What Anet appears to understand, but you do not seem to understand, is this:
If the only things of worth to a person are HoT, one character slot and gems, it looks like this:

• before:
  HoT = 45€
  Ultimate = HoT[45€] + one char slot[10€] + 4000 gems[50€] = 105€ of value for 100€
• now:
  (HoT + one char slot) = 45€
  Ultimate = (HoT + one char slot)[45€] + 4000 gems[50€] = 95€ of value for 100€

So the person would need 400 extra gems [5€] to get the 100€ of value for the 100€ he paid. This is, of course, only true for a person, that considers the Deluxe goodies and the second character slot as valueless. I can relate to this, because I was in this exact situation. A person thinking like that had a perfect deal in the Ultimate Edition before, but after the second character slot being added, the Standard Edition turns out to be the best choice for that person.
It’s all just a question of personal values.

But, of course, Anet couldn’t just give him 400 gems for free, otherwise they’d have to give them to everyone else as well. So, you are right, that idea wasn’t the perfect solution.
But the support found a solution that was acceptable for both sides, and so everything is fine now.

Seera.5916:

And he said if that wasn’t doable that he wanted to be refunded $25 but keep all of the goodies that the Ultimate version had.

That’s not a good solution, I agree with you on that.

AzureSky.3175:

Seera.5916:

Pre-purchasing a game and buying a car both tend to require either knowledge that this is the perfect car/game for you or enough sweet deals added on to make you buy the car or pre-purchase the game. And not everyone falls for those sweet deals. And those sweet deals can change. And when they do change, the company is under no obligation to do anything about it. It’s those similarities that I’m pointing to, not their differences.

There may be sweet deals that change if you buy something. Everyone knows that.
There may be sweet deals if you pre-purchase, but they do NOT change. And what you buy does NOT change until you finally get what you pre-purchased. Otherwise you could pre-purchase my car and then I decide to remove the wheels and exchange the engine for a cup of instant noodles before I deliver it to you. But Anet (or ncsoft?) did change the deal for veterans, they changed the product that they pre-purchased, and thus it is completely acceptable if people want to cancel their deal and pre-purchase another version, or ask for different solutions. Pre-purchases may. not. change. until they are “delivered” (that’s why the free character slot for veterans isn’t advertised anywhere), and you can be absolutely sure that there will not be any other changing “sweet deals” until HoT is released.

Seera.5916:

He originally asked to be given gems in addition to the 4000 he bought with Ultimate to make up for the free character slot being added.

He asked to be given 400 additional gems, and he didn’t just pick a random amount here, but the exact amount that a person buying the Ultimate Edition, to whom the second character slot and the goodies from the Deluxe Edition are ‘worthless’, would need to break even and don’t feel like they made the worse deal now, that an extra character slot has been added to the Standard version.

What Anet appears to understand, but you do not seem to understand, is this:
If the only things of worth to a person are HoT, one character slot and gems, it looks like this:

• before:
  HoT = 45€
  Ultimate = HoT[45€] + one char slot[10€] + 4000 gems[50€] = 105€ of value for 100€
• now:
  (HoT + one char slot) = 45€
  Ultimate = (HoT + one char slot)[45€] + 4000 gems[50€] = 95€ of value for 100€

So the person would need 400 extra gems [5€] to get the 100€ of value for the 100€ he paid. This is, of course, only true for a person, that considers the Deluxe goodies and the second character slot as valueless. I can relate to this, because I was in this exact situation. A person thinking like that had a perfect deal in the Ultimate Edition before, but after the second character slot being added, the Standard Edition turns out to be the best choice for that person.
It’s all just a question of personal values.

But, of course, Anet couldn’t just give him 400 gems for free, otherwise they’d have to give them to everyone else as well. So, you are right, that idea wasn’t the perfect solution.
But the support found a solution that was acceptable for both sides, and so everything is fine now.

Seera.5916:

And he said if that wasn’t doable that he wanted to be refunded $25 but keep all of the goodies that the Ultimate version had.

That’s not a good solution, I agree with you on that.

Where is this set of rules of what can and can’t happen with pre-purchases? I’d love to read it. There is no rule that states that pre-purchase incentives can’t change. There is definitely no law on it.

As to your example of switching out my car for a cup of noodles, that’s bait and switch and is illegal. If I pre-purchase a car, I should get a car. And again, you’re focusing on the differences while I was referencing their similarities.

They didn’t remove anything from the Ultimate Package at all. They did not lessen it’s value either. His asking for more gems is crazy. They gave an additional pre-purchase offer for veterans. What’s in the Ultimate vs what’s included in the pre-purchase offer are two different things. You can’t bundle the veteran character slot into the cost of the Ultimate Package, because it’s not given to just those who pre-purchase the Ultimate Package.

ANet is being nice (really the only thing they can logically do and not have more bad PR) and letting players exchange their packages should they choose to do so if they pre-purchased before the veteran bonus was offered.

You are asking the manufacturer of a product to refund your money when they altered the product to give you MORE than the original price included.

If you are asking to exchange the Ultimate for Standard with a credit for the difference, that’s not unreasonable, but asking for a price break for the SAME item that now contains more content is not (at least in my opinion).

They may be willing to refund your most recent character slot purchase, however.

Seera.5916:

Where is this set of rules of what can and can’t happen with pre-purchases? I’d love to read it. There is no rule that states that pre-purchase incentives can’t change. There is definitely no law on it.

I don’t think there is one, and I don’t think that pre-purchase are really common either. But if you compare the concept of a pre-order to the concept of a pre-purchase, it’s just basic logic that the content of a thing you pre-purchase may not change, because it will definitely be unfair to at least some people. Example. You want to buy some noodles and really need a car. You can choose between two Editions.
Edition Alpha contains a cup of instant noodles for 1000$.
Edition Bravo contains a cup of instant noodles and a car for 10.000$.
Of course you choose Bravo, because you want a car. People start to prepurchase, and suddenly the company decides to add a free car of the same type to both Editions.
Edition Alpha now contains a cup of instant noodles and a car for 1000$
Edition Beta now contains a cup of instant noodles and two cars for 10.000$
What now? None of the editions content lost any value, there was only a free gift added to both of them. This would still be a screw over to all the people that bought Beta before the change.

And just so you don’t get a wrong idea, this is absolutely no comparison to what Anet did. Anet didn’t want to screw anyone over. I just try to point out that it is basic logic that pre-purchases must not change. I’ll accept being proven wrong if there will be any further price reductions or goodies added to Heart of Thorns before it gets released, or if you can show me any case of a pre-purchase in that one of these two things happened without allowing people to get a refund.

Seera.5916:

And again, you’re focusing on the differences while I was referencing their similarities.

Of course I do that, since there is no other way to show anyone that their comparison is not valid. I really fail to see any similarities, so I can’t even focus on them. You simply cannot compare buying something to pre-purchasing something, and if we cannot agree on that, then I guess our whole discussion about your car comparisons is futile anyway.

Seera.5916:

They didn’t remove anything from the Ultimate Package at all. They did not lessen it’s value either. His asking for more gems is crazy.

Correct. Thinking that way in the first moment when opening a thread is understandable in my opinion. Persisting on this would be wrong, yes. But he didn’t do that.

Seera.5916:

They gave an additional pre-purchase offer for veterans. What’s in the Ultimate vs what’s included in the pre-purchase offer are two different things.

It’s only two different things if you’re a new player, if you’re a veteran, the pre-purchase offer comes hand in hand with the respective edition, it’s tied to each other. You cannot buy HoT without the pre-purchase offer, you cannot get the pre-purchase offer without buying HoT.

Okay, this might be my last try: For him, and for me, it is just that something of high personal value (a first extra character slot) has been added to the Standard Edition, while something with no personal value (a second extra character slot) has been added to the Ultimate Edition. Even though the same things (things with the same objective value) have been added to both editions, things of completely different personal value have been added, a high personal value to Standard, no personal value to Ultimate. And this simply shifts our preference on what version to buy.
And this is all completely irrelevant to a person, that values the second extra character slot just as much as the first extra character slot, they’re just happy with the nice free bonus.
It’s not all about the objective value, but about the personal value. Some people love Rolex watches and are happy to pay thousands of dollars for them, because they have a high personal value to them. I don’t wear watches in general, so they don’t have any value to me and I wouldn’t buy them, even if I could afford them.

Brother Grimm.5176:

You are asking the manufacturer of a product to refund your money when they altered the product to give you MORE than the original price included.

If you are asking to exchange the Ultimate for Standard with a credit for the difference, that’s not unreasonable, but asking for a price break for the SAME item that now contains more content is not (at least in my opinion).

They may be willing to refund your most recent character slot purchase, however.

I think that you are completely correct and agree on all of your points. But nobody is asking for extra gems anymore. Jim and me have both already been helped out by Anets awesome costumer support.

AzureSky.3175:

Seera.5916:

Where is this set of rules of what can and can’t happen with pre-purchases? I’d love to read it. There is no rule that states that pre-purchase incentives can’t change. There is definitely no law on it.

I don’t think there is one, and I don’t think that pre-purchase are really common either. But if you compare the concept of a pre-order to the concept of a pre-purchase, it’s just basic logic that the content of a thing you pre-purchase may not change, because it will definitely be unfair to at least some people. Example. You want to buy some noodles and really need a car. You can choose between two Editions.
Edition Alpha contains a cup of instant noodles for 1000$.
Edition Bravo contains a cup of instant noodles and a car for 10.000$.
Of course you choose Bravo, because you want a car. People start to prepurchase, and suddenly the company decides to add a free car of the same type to both Editions.
Edition Alpha now contains a cup of instant noodles and a car for 1000$
Edition Beta now contains a cup of instant noodles and two cars for 10.000$
What now? None of the editions content lost any value, there was only a free gift added to both of them. This would still be a screw over to all the people that bought Beta before the change.

And just so you don’t get a wrong idea, this is absolutely no comparison to what Anet did. Anet didn’t want to screw anyone over. I just try to point out that it is basic logic that pre-purchases must not change. I’ll accept being proven wrong if there will be any further price reductions or goodies added to Heart of Thorns before it gets released, or if you can show me any case of a pre-purchase in that one of these two things happened without allowing people to get a refund.

Seera.5916:

And again, you’re focusing on the differences while I was referencing their similarities.

Of course I do that, since there is no other way to show anyone that their comparison is not valid. I really fail to see any similarities, so I can’t even focus on them. You simply cannot compare buying something to pre-purchasing something, and if we cannot agree on that, then I guess our whole discussion about your car comparisons is futile anyway.

Seera.5916:

They didn’t remove anything from the Ultimate Package at all. They did not lessen it’s value either. His asking for more gems is crazy.

Correct. Thinking that way in the first moment when opening a thread is understandable in my opinion. Persisting on this would be wrong, yes. But he didn’t do that.

Seera.5916:

They gave an additional pre-purchase offer for veterans. What’s in the Ultimate vs what’s included in the pre-purchase offer are two different things.

It’s only two different things if you’re a new player, if you’re a veteran, the pre-purchase offer comes hand in hand with the respective edition, it’s tied to each other. You cannot buy HoT without the pre-purchase offer, you cannot get the pre-purchase offer without buying HoT.

Okay, this might be my last try: For him, and for me, it is just that something of high personal value (a first extra character slot) has been added to the Standard Edition, while something with no personal value (a second extra character slot) has been added to the Ultimate Edition. Even though the same things (things with the same objective value) have been added to both editions, things of completely different personal value have been added, a high personal value to Standard, no personal value to Ultimate. And this simply shifts our preference on what version to buy.
And this is all completely irrelevant to a person, that values the second extra character slot just as much as the first extra character slot, they’re just happy with the nice free bonus.
It’s not all about the objective value, but about the personal value. Some people love Rolex watches and are happy to pay thousands of dollars for them, because they have a high personal value to them. I don’t wear watches in general, so they don’t have any value to me and I wouldn’t buy them, even if I could afford them.

The perceived value changed. The actual value of the Ultimate Package did not. No matter if you are new or a vet. ANet is being nice and letting players exchange editions based on changes in perceived value.

It’s why as soon as I noticed there was an uproar over the content of the editions, I held off on buying, because ANet might do something that would affect either actual or perceived value.

And we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on the analogy.

Seera.5916:

The perceived value changed. The actual value of the Ultimate Package did not. No matter if you are new or a vet. ANet is being nice and letting players exchange editions based on changes in perceived value.

It’s why as soon as I noticed there was an uproar over the content of the editions, I held off on buying, because ANet might do something that would affect either actual or perceived value.

And we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on the analogy.

That’s okay. At least it seems that we can finally agree on the change in perceived value for veterans. And since you even held off on buying because you expected that there may be a possibility of Anet changing perceived value, I guess we can end our discussion here. (:
I agree that extra gems or price reduction were bad ideas.
Anet refunding editions or character slots is the ideal solution. Let’s leave it at that.