Guild Wars 2

Quote from Gaile Gray (ArenaNet Support Liaison):

“Your friend was not blocked because he was reported. He was blocked because the evidence pointed to him being involved in botting. I assure you, even a dozen reports will not get someone’s account terminated — each report is reviewed before action is taken on an account.”

Taken from post: Friend Banned for Botting

So according to your statement you rely on a “BOT” (as in their computer detection system to find bots) to ban players for BOTTING, clearly this is proof that your system as of current is FLAWED. How can you put so much faith into a system which only partially monitors a player’s activity i.e. farming events, npcs or ore? For example, a player farms trolls for about an hour, now that player pulls the Champion (which takes longer to kill) and kites them – because you system tries to distinguish a player from a bot and permanently bans them for “acting like a bot”. This is ONLY PARTIAL EVIDENCE that an player MAY be a bot. That’s like a police officer arresting an innocent bystander on the basis that they walked past a murder and stumbled onto some blood which ended up on their shoes – where’s the logic in that? Why isn’t any other activity checked on said accounts? Like in-game chats, party activity etc etc.

The system needs to give a warning system to a player that may be showing signs of “botting” – e.g. an email, in game mail, tell a player to move out the area or tell them to log – that should be sufficient enough. At the moment it’s ‘shoot first ask questions later’. That is just bad programming, of course you may not have enough people to attend to issues with botting but relying on your system to do all your work has clearly failed. How many other players (which seems like a lot) have been falsely banned according to your system bot’s data gathering?

Yet, your reporting system is in vain, basically what you are telling us that you’re relying on the program before your players; the players who support your game. You should have your system bot review the report system, instead of throwing down the ‘ban hammer.’ Players are now forced into paying for another account based on false accusations.

We will even test your system right now and have my other brother farm trolls for an hour or two for a week or two – while streaming it – and if he gets banned then obviously your system is flawed. Your system needs to be fixed and you will loose a lot of players based on your reliance on your system. If you can’t take criticism for you game and system then you game which forever be flawed.

We enjoy your game, we even defended your game but with issues like these it ruins it for players.

note: this player has been farming items (ore, blood etc) and karma over the past few months so that he can get his legendary weapon. I know this because this player is my brother, in case anyone cares >_>

Display Name: Sanayumoki.3057
Ticket Number: 121118-000653

Nice straw man argument here. There is actually no mention of a BOT in the original reply and no indication of the means by which this person was assessed. There is on the other hand a clear indication though there is some form of evidence for the decision. We are not privy to that, which is quite understandable, seen as we have no rights to that kind of information.

There is also a blind assumption in your post that the post referred to is by a person not involved in using bots. We only have a statement. I am not suggesting this is not a real player but how can we tell the difference?

Certainly it would be in the interest of those involved using bots to create arguments against the very system that is designed to protect people who play the game from people who abuse the game for whatever purpose.

Now, should a significant level of reports be filed for exactly the same reasons by a diverse number of players then it would raise further questions. I would therefore reserve any knee-jerk reaction your feel toward the company until there is clearer evidence on the matter to justify such a response.

Maybe it was a mistake by the company, maybe a bogus post, maybe a bot plot to destroy an effective method of getting rid of them. Fact is, we don’t know and speculation without facts is only likely to further dissatisfaction than promote enjoyment.

What we do know is that there is a perfectly appropriate response and format for escalation given to the poster concerned.

Cook.9375 your points are invalid. I would say something but my brother said it for me. Just keep quiet before you say anything else, since clearly you’re the “straw man”. Go troll someone else.

Clearly a moderator(s) would have fully investigated these issues with actual players being confused as bots. Which means being contacted by Customer Service, has this been done? No. Have any players been sent a email to state that they have been investigated for botting? No. So clearly a computer system, not a moderator, is auto banning players based on presumably “botting” activities. If that wasn’t the case these issues would have been dealt with correctly and they WOULD have checked other activity on the account – since prior to being banned my brother was running an instance with myself, my other brother and friends.

Does this conclude botting activity? No, so what reason does Arena Net have to justify their decision on perma-banning actual players? Based on their data collecting in SOME of the activities (farming etc), these “botting” activities? Please do not insult me on your failed attempt to defend something that is broken.

Now, should a significant level of reports be filed for exactly the same reasons by a diverse number of players then it would raise further questions. I would therefore reserve any knee-jerk reaction your feel toward the company until there is clearer evidence on the matter to justify such a response.

I’d like to kindly refer you to this topic https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Blocked-Suspended-Terminated-Player-Comments/page/48 . The amount of reports made regarding this issue and the amount of people getting unbanned after being accused of botting speaks for itself. There’s a flaw in the system which is only causing ArenaNet to have more work and a bad name. >_<

Here’s the truth people. Trolls are bad. If you encounter a troll, it is your duty to kill it, and salvage the treasures it has in its steaming carcass. Now, i’m not making a reference to anyone that possibly responded to this calling them a troll or something, because i think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, despite how stupid it may appear to be.

WATCH OUT THOUGH! Killing trolls is a bannable offense. I mean, it must be. The area itself is almost deserted (besides the trolls) which for an MMO is pretty unusual. I mean, granted some areas may be mostly deserted, but THIS IS AN 80 AREA! THESE TROLLS DROP MATERIALS USED FOR A LEGENDARY… and no-one is here? THEN, when someone goes there to try and reap the rewards of the trolls, they get banned.

Yeah, to me, that sounds a little screwed up, doesn’t it? Seems like Anet’s system is just one big mama troll, protecting its young from the evil, glory-seeking gamer.

I can understand that this area may be famous for botting. In that case, yeah they should protect it with their ‘system.’ Here’s a tip, though. MAYBE they should gather a more wider spectrum of information, instead of pulling a Hyperion. If you don’t get the reference, then play Borderlands 2.

Cook, do you even know what a strawman argument is?

First of all, there is a post with over 2000 replies filled with people who have been wrongfully banned, quite a lot of them got unbanned after some time, so there is quite some evidence that anet’s current bot review process might be flawed.

Then, anet admitted / announced / is proud that they outsourced their bot reviewing to some external data analyzing company. This company uses automated algorithms to go through the server logs to determine whether or not a player has been botting. This is what the OP calls a “bot”, maybe not a perfectly accurate term in this context, though understandable.

So, think about it:
The reviewing process is done by an automated system.
There are people that have been wrongfully banned (otherwise anet wouldn’t unban them).
We can conclude that the system is not working as intended; judging from the number of people complaining about these incidents these aren’t single cases, but it’s rather a general problem with the system.

Anyway, to me it is unbelievable that a company actually bans their users based on logs analyzed by some software without having a real person review these cases first.
Heck, if that’d require too much manpower, send the maybe-botters a captcha test ingame, and review only the cases in which the player failed to respond.
Whatever, just don’t blindly ban everyone who acts “suspicious” and hope that the wrongly banned will not be upset after waiting for days / weeks to be unbanned. You’re just gonna drive your customers away that way.
And lower your income; do you honestly think that a player who has been unjustly banned, with no prior warning, or at least a notification mail informing him about his ban will ever buy something from you again anytime soon?
The trust is gone, and that is gonna hurt you more than the players, anet.

Yes, I am currently perma banned for botting (which I didn’t).
When I get unbanned I will continue playing, but I won’t buy gems or anything with real money; it’s just too risky considering that I might get banned any time just because of some mistake some stupid script makes. And I would dare to say that I am not the only one feeling that way; so for your own sake, get your stuff together anet.

The players have been patient about many things and problems with the game, since it is good overall, but there are things we won’t accept.

I am Incident: 121118-000616; banned for 21 hours and not having received any communication from anet.

In fact, this detection botting system is reasonable and unreasonable?, ANET they should know best.
Error account of the blockade is not terrible, terrible negative delays and irresponsible judgment and reply.

just a quick note, you don’t get banned when you bot right away. you get banned after a specific time. so it doesn’t matter what you are doing that time you get booted out of the game.

Mohmohchan.4120:

just a quick note, you don’t get banned when you bot right away. you get banned after a specific time. so it doesn’t matter what you are doing that time you get booted out of the game.

Well that would be true IF the players being banned were botting, which is not the case (check topic Blocked/Suspended/Terminated — Player Comments). They were doing “bot”-like activities according to Arena Net’s data system; based on the information like Farming karma events and/or Ore for a couple of hours over a long period of time (couple of months) which was the case with my brother. That does not deem him a bot OR justify why he should be banned. A lot of non-botting players (including my brother) have been accused for botting then having to submit tickets, and/or buy new accounts then having to wait 3-5 days or more just to get a reply back from Arena Net.

This is not acceptable, the system is flawed and needs to be fixed.

Your argument was classified as a straw man, from what I can tell, because you opened with

“So according to your statement you rely on a “BOT” (as in their computer detection system to find bots) to ban players for BOTTING, clearly this is proof that your system as of current is FLAWED.”

Except nowhere in the dev’s post did it say they relied on a computer program to find bots.

That’s the definition of the straw man fallacy – your point is based on statements that were never made.

That said, bot hunting systems, automated or manual, will always have false positives.

Always.

But most of the time the people complaining actually were botting and will deny it to anyone who asks.

See, the thing is… Using a program to play the game for you, even if you are sitting at the keyboard and paying attention to the game, is still against the rules, and whether you call it botting, or automated gameplay, or whatever, you got caught, and you’re paying the price.

I watch and report bots all the time. If you watch a bot for 2 minutes, it is plainly simple to see that they are automated. They run an identical pattern for hours and hours, with no deviation, because the script can’t be random. You can watch EXACTLY where they are going to turn, where they run to, and how they move.

And innocent people will speak up, but the guilty ones are the ones who get really indignant and insist they weren’t doing anything wrong. Protesting too much is commonly a sign that they are guilty. And while this might not be a “happy happy touchy feely” thing to say, 90% of the bots I report have names that are clearly Asian in origin, which seems to have some relevance here.

neon.4863:

But most of the time the people complaining actually were botting and will deny it to anyone who asks.

So if I was a police officer, and had you thrown into jail, you wouldn’t complain to the Judge that you were wrongfully accused, and not do all you can to disprove the accusations? Nice…

Spetsdod.9608:

See, the thing is… Using a program to play the game for you, even if you are sitting at the keyboard and paying attention to the game, is still against the rules, and whether you call it botting, or automated gameplay, or whatever, you got caught, and you’re paying the price.

I watch and report bots all the time. If you watch a bot for 2 minutes, it is plainly simple to see that they are automated. They run an identical pattern for hours and hours, with no deviation, because the script can’t be random. You can watch EXACTLY where they are going to turn, where they run to, and how they move.

And innocent people will speak up, but the guilty ones are the ones who get really indignant and insist they weren’t doing anything wrong. Protesting too much is commonly a sign that they are guilty. And while this might not be a “happy happy touchy feely” thing to say, 90% of the bots I report have names that are clearly Asian in origin, which seems to have some relevance here.

What about all the other people who got banned and got their accounts back? If getting banned was the right thing, then everyone who got banned should accept they were caught in the act, not get their account back; and not complain about it. In the end, Anet would be doing the necessary investigation, to ensure that the ban was fairly implemented. Are you saying that in this case, were wrong and my brother is a botter (just so you know, he isn’t) or are you saying this as a whole? Why would there be such a vast amount of people getting mad about this if it wasn’t wrong? Don’t be so silly.

Don’t assume that every single person that is innocent will be lighthearted when explaining their opinions and that every single person who is guilty will even respond on the forums or get super mad about it. Personally, if i was a botter, why would i want to go on a forum and get mad, and draw even more attention to myself. Why would Anet give anyone their accounts back, if every single one of them was banned with valid information. It all just seems rather stupid.

Also. Congratulations on your simplistic ability to differentiate a bot from a player. Maybe if you were there at the time, you could use your God given power to analyze a situation, and see that Anet was completely incorrect. Sadly you weren’t, and no-one really cares if you think you can tell a bot from a player. Also, read up. Clearly reporting means nothing.

Kthx.

Loli Ruri.8307:

neon.4863:

But most of the time the people complaining actually were botting and will deny it to anyone who asks.

So if I was a police officer, and had you thrown into jail, you wouldn’t complain to the Judge that you were wrongfully accused, and not do all you can to disprove the accusations? Nice…

Don’t you know? People who are wrongfully accused never defend themselves!

Spetsdod.9608:

See, the thing is… Using a program to play the game for you, even if you are sitting at the keyboard and paying attention to the game, is still against the rules, and whether you call it botting, or automated gameplay, or whatever, you got caught, and you’re paying the price.

I watch and report bots all the time. If you watch a bot for 2 minutes, it is plainly simple to see that they are automated. They run an identical pattern for hours and hours, with no deviation, because the script can’t be random. You can watch EXACTLY where they are going to turn, where they run to, and how they move.

And innocent people will speak up, but the guilty ones are the ones who get really indignant and insist they weren’t doing anything wrong. Protesting too much is commonly a sign that they are guilty. And while this might not be a “happy happy touchy feely” thing to say, 90% of the bots I report have names that are clearly Asian in origin, which seems to have some relevance here.

Using a program – you mean the Guild Wars 2 client, is that what you’re talking about? Hmm didn’t think it was illegal to use the Guild Wars 2 client to play the game. Didn’t think it was illegal to to press the same buttons over and over again.

Well clearly I must be botting as well since I’ve played with this person (my brother) and farmed in Cursed Shore and Frostgorge Sound. And pressed the same buttons over and over again. And used the Guild Wars 2 Client to play the game. And bought gems for myself and my brother – oh that must be botting too. That means all the players in that area are bots since they do the exact same thing. Oh and talking in game – that’s botting as well. And apparently you can’t be Asian or have an Asian name since you must be a bot.

Also I must be guilty since I’m so defensive. My account should be investigated too for all my “botting activity”. Or “automated programming” as you call it.

Oh look at the wonderful botting activity….