Guild Wars 2

Im looking to buy and put together a gaming pc, BUT i need help finding the right parts that will have nice enough symmetry that GW2 will be able to be maxed and i wont have to upgrade for awhile. I dont care about shadows much in the game, I know that creates alot of strain on the graphics card, so hopefully that changes things and makes this build a little more viable. Ive never build a computer before so im fairly new to this. Please be as specific as you can be with this for those reasons. Thanks a lot and see you guys in game:)

Yeah, good luck with that at that price point.

Things to remember. AMD designed the FX series of CPUs so every two cores (one module) is equivalent in performance to a single Intel core with hyperthreading only with two threads running. Otherwise the Intel core will crush the FX core in performance.

The game is multithreaded and will use more that one core but since no thread can exceed a single core’s worth of performance and the game uses a main thread to orchestrate the others, single core performance matters. Combined with what I said about the FX series, and AMD CPUs will limit this game’s performance. But it is the cheaper solution, just understand that going in.

My suggestion is to find an inexpensive, relatively speaking, Intel quad core and build around that. If you ignore future upgradablity (ignoring a CPU upgrade to one where OC is available) you should be able to pair it with an inexpensive motherboard so you can afford a better video card than you would if you get a motherboard capable of OCing a K variant CPU.

If what I just said is gobbledykitten, then you should reconsider building your own.

Well, lets start off with can you use anything from your (possible) previous computer? Like case, hard drive, RAM modules…. or do we have to start from a scratch?

I think we did calculations a while back, turned out it takes some $900 to build a decent gaming rig (and I say it again, decent, not even a top-end) so we have to sqeeze out every last penny we can it seems.

Define MAX settings. And under what circumstances?

My Idea max is 80-100FPS with the acceptable Drops to kitten in normal scenarios (Lows being 10-15 on ALL currently available hardware). at 1600×900 or 1080p

In that case, you CAN build a i3 based system with a HD7790 or R7 260X and play the game on max settings (Sampling – Native, Char limit – low, Char Quality – Medium). For about 600.

What I would suggest; Build on Socket 1155. Get a 2nd Gen i3 (They are cheap) Clocked at 3.2Ghz or higher, I found one on ebay used for 65bucks a week ago.
Build using a high quality Motherboard (Z Series for future CPU Upgrades), Get 8GB of ram (1600mhz CL9), and a good 500w PSU.

Then start hunting down your Video card. Newegg had a steal on a R7 260X for $129 + 4 free Games (Value of 179bucks – Included Thief!). Fry’s had a steal on a HD7790 for $99bucks. So that would be your price point for that ‘grade’ of card.

Anything faster is not worth the price due to how GuildWars2 is coded. And DO NOT buy anything that performs less then them. (GTX 550, GTX650, R7 250, HD7770, <— They all cost more and perform LESS then the HD7790 and R7 260x)

But with how this game runs, and what your budget is. That’s about as good as you can get it, IMHO.

For reasons above, I’ve chosen this build:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/2FHis

This is with all new parts, very low capacity HDD (320 GB, might be enough for some) what you would be looking at to run GW2 about the best as can be for as low as possible.

another option would be:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/2FHv9

This is with a weaker CPU and a motherboard that doesn’t allow overclocking. Even with this CPU I would recommend the board in the first build, it’s less than 10 dollars more and like squish said it opens the possibility of future upgrade.

Now keep in mind both of these are extremely stripped down, there’s even no DVD-drive in either one of them (which bring in some problems with Windows installation from the DVD). As you can see, you really can’t get a gaming rig in the $400-500 span from new parts. This also excludes monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers etc…

locx.6412:

For reasons above, I’ve chosen this build:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/2FHis

This is with all new parts, very low capacity HDD (320 GB, might be enough for some) what you would be looking at to run GW2 about the best as can be for as low as possible.

another option would be:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/2FHv9

This is with a weaker CPU and a motherboard that doesn’t allow overclocking. Even with this CPU I would recommend the board in the first build, it’s less than 10 dollars more and like squish said it opens the possibility of future upgrade.

Now keep in mind both of these are extremely stripped down, there’s even no DVD-drive in either one of them (which bring in some problems with Windows installation from the DVD). As you can see, you really can’t get a gaming rig in the $400-500 span from new parts. This also excludes monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers etc…

I agree. But I changed the Top link a little bit

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/2FI6e

Dropped to an i3, and changed the Ram to 2×2GB CL7 (Dual channel is faster then single channel)

With out the OS the cost is 479, with the OS its 530. Gives the OP a option to upgrade to an i5-k or i7-k down the road when he/she has more cash. It will be able to play the game moderately well .

I setup a i3-2120 and R7-260X last night – 80-100FPS, Combat with 12players is 45-55FPS, Zergs drop down to 10FPS. So I would expect that +8-10% due to the 4th Gen CPU and PCI-E 3.0.

From a FX-8350 to an i3-2120….the difference is night and day for this kitten game. It makes me sad, and yes…I died a little inside after doing the Benches after the ‘upgrade’

Right. That’s like a combination of those 2. Like I said, I would choose the motherboard in the option #1 regardless (getting the exact same on Sunday, dun dun duuunn), it’s only $9 more. RAM could be dropped down to 4 GB, my 8 might be a little excessive. Single module is usually cheaper than dual for the same amount, but if the performance increase is worth it, it’s again only a few dollars more.

locx.6412:

Right. That’s like a combination of those 2. Like I said, I would choose the motherboard in the option #1 regardless (getting the exact same on Sunday, dun dun duuunn), it’s only $9 more. RAM could be dropped down to 4 GB, my 8 might be a little excessive. Single module is usually cheaper than dual for the same amount, but if the performance increase is worth it, it’s again only a few dollars more.

True. but either way, 500-600 is very limiting for this game.

Or he could copy my build

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/2FIZq (This actually my rig at home!)

But I don’t suggest that, its nearly 2k. (amazing at how parts retain their value over time)

I previously had a laptop, so using anything from that is a no-go. Max settings for me with good graphics would be around 25-30fps in a world boss fight minimum. I forgot to mention i have a case, a cpu, and a motherboard, let me link them because i can still send them back if they arent sufficient:
CPU: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009O412AU/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Motherboard: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009HP42HQ/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

case: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003SNJA8O/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

All i need is the tower parts, everything else i have. I am playing on a 47 inch HDTV too, if that makes a difference in the graphics card.

phabsmula.4231:

I previously had a laptop, so using anything from that is a no-go. Max settings for me with good graphics would be around 25-30fps in a world boss fight minimum. I forgot to mention i have a case, a cpu, and a motherboard, let me link them because i can still send them back if they arent sufficient:
CPU: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009O412AU/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Motherboard: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009HP42HQ/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

case: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003SNJA8O/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

20-25FPS in a world boss with that CPU is impossible. You are looking at 8-12FPS.
You need to buy an Intel CPU (i3 Clocked at 3.2Ghz for a baseline, or an i5-K)

47" or whatever doesnt matter. Its the 1080p Resolution you will be driving.

Build it right, sell your CPU/ Motherboard, and get a 1150 socket+i3 (to save on Cash) and then throw in the rest.

So also from what im understanding is the AMD CPU i linked wont be as good with the game as an intel cpu due to hyperthreading with intel’s cpus?

phabsmula.4231:

So also from what im understanding is the AMD CPU i linked wont be as good with the game as an intel cpu due to hyperthreading with intel’s cpus?

It’s not hyperthreading, its the fact AMD sucks for single threaded performance, and Intel doesn’t. That is all.

can you maybe provide a link to a good CPU and motherboard? I can break $500 on it but i just would like to stay around it as much as possible.

$500 on the build alltogether is what i meant:P

phabsmula,

I’ve looked at the specs of what you have and they are not half bad. But as others have mentioned, the single threading for AMD is not anywhere near par with Intel CPUs. I will tell you this, with my FX 6300 (6 Core @ 4GHz) and 8 GB DDR 3 1600, with my Sapphire 6870, I get 10-15 FPS in a fight but very minimal lag to be noticed. And by fights I mean major Meta Events, Lions Arch does come in around that same level, but my settings are Maximum Everything. As for normal roaming the wilds I have tapped 60 FPS without an issue. So with that, what you have should work fine.

I will suggest a minimum of 8GB of RAM, I personally use AMD Radeon memory and it runs very stable. For a PSU you’ll want a minimum of 600-750 watts, with a 12 volt rail of at least 30. I use an Ultra X3 600w with no issues, full modular systems are easy to install and maintain I have found. For a video card, the R7 series is the lower end, and the r9 270 / 270x is decent for upper mid range. For GW2 a R7 260 would work decently, but the R9 again will pack a little more oomph for games that require more on a GPU.

All in all you’d be looking at around $80-85 for the RAM, $100-$150 for the PSU, and $150-250 for the video.

okay, so if i was to get a Intel CPU, which would you recommend? I canceled the order for the AMD one i had ordered, as it seemed to be “not enough” for what I have in mind.

Just got an i3 processor with a fan and some thermal paste for $100:)

phabsmula.4231:

okay, so if i was to get a Intel CPU, which would you recommend? I canceled the order for the AMD one i had ordered, as it seemed to be “not enough” for what I have in mind.

CPU – http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116773

Motherboard – http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130659

That is the BARE MIN I would accept for a new build today.

MSI H61M-P31 – Motherboard (MicroATX, 1PCI-E 16x slot and 1PCI-E 1x slot)
i33240 3.4Ghz Dual core CPU with HT

how much fps do you think that would get me on medium settings in a boss fight

phabsmula.4231:

how much fps do you think that would get me on medium settings in a boss fight

totally depends on how many players are on the screen.

But mine that runs at 5040×900 (Eyefinity) was getting 55-60FPS on ultra (Sampling – Native, Char Limit – Low, Char Quality – Medium) with 15~ Players on the screen in combat.

So at a much lower res, with 30+ players I would expect 30-35~ depending on what Display options and background apps you are running.

alright sounds good, and I also noticed it said intel hd 2500 graphics, does that come with an integrated graphics chip? Or is that just extra stuff on top of the chip i would buy myself that just gives it an extra umph?

phabsmula.4231:

alright sounds good, and I also noticed it said intel hd 2500 graphics, does that come with an integrated graphics chip? Or is that just extra stuff on top of the chip i would buy myself that just gives it an extra umph?

Ignore the HD2500. It is not good for your purpose. You will have it disabled in the BIOS and use your Addon card (whatever you chose, but I still recommend a r7-260X or HD7790 for their current Costs).

The HD2500 is integrated into the CPU.

So combining an AMD graphics chip with an intel CPU wont affect any speeds or power of anything? Like they wont counteract each other in any way? I have been wondering about that too. If you could also provide links to those as well it would be amazing, i went ahead and got those ones you linked before and even found a promo code saving $10 for the CPU.

I am getting rid of my ps4 for this set up too, so maybe a little bit more powerful GPU would be good.

r7 260X – $139
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202081&RandomID=697303872643420140122141315

OR

HD7790 $94
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121727

Both Perform about the same. The R7 is 10% faster then the HD7790.

not sure if the 45 bucks is worth 10 percent more speed, or is it?

is it possible to run dual graphics cards on that motherboard? I just realized you can do that with some

phabsmula.4231:

is it possible to run dual graphics cards on that motherboard? I just realized you can do that with some

No, if you want SLI/CrossFire you are looking at 100-200 More + the cost of a 2nd card.
And IMHO its not worth it, unless you are doing some super Resolution displays.

okay sounds good. i went through and got a set up i think. I changed a bit and went over 500 but not quite to 600. Im going to post it here and see if its good. Im going to be upgrading in the future so I got a different motherboard, it actually has wifi capabilities without adding a PCI wireless card, which was a nice surprise.

Optical Drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204

HDD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136941

PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182199

RAM: (went with 8 gigs just because i will be upgrading, so why not) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148540

Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131837

CPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116773

GPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121727

If their is anything on there that i can save money with that has the same if not as close as possible to the same specs im all for it if anyone finds something. All this is $585, which isnt bad seeing as that motherboard to me seems to be pretty good for the price.

Case is still the same..

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003SNJA8O/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You can use that pcpartpicker we used, it finds the cheapest vendors for your parts, newegg included. Might save some dollars there. That case is fine, Any one will do the job really, but that one even decent.

you can use sites like PassMarks Video Card Benchmarks or Futuremarks Benchmarks and see how the cards perform. Search for HD 7790 and look for cards around it, don’t go much lower (unless you find a card for like $50), you can always go higher if you have the money.

I would suggest going with Asus Z87-K and i3-4130 because the motherboard is actually cheaper than what you chose, plus that CPU has a little perormance edge over that 3rd gen. If you’re selling your ps4 to get a little extra I would suggest spending it here rather than on a better GPU, as most of the power in GW2 is needed from the CPU.

Having an Intel CPU and AMD GPU doesn’t bring problems. The other option would be nVIDIA, Intel doesn’t make GPU’s on it’s own. It used to be ATI vs nVIDIA for video cards but AMD bought ATI a few years back.

Highly highly highly recommend looking at another video card, one offering 2GB of VRAM for use if you plan to play @ 1920×1080, this goes alongside any other game you wish to play. GW2 is known to eat up near 1GB of VRAM @ 1920×1080, so if you had hopes to play other games on the new pc, you would be sorely disappointed. Hitting that vram wall in any game will show you no mercy and will suck so hard. 2GB is the sweet spot for 1920×1080 and 3GB/4GB for 2560×1440.

“Max out GW2 with a $400-500 setup help”

Not gonna happen.

sobe.4157:

Highly highly highly recommend looking at another video card, one offering 2GB of VRAM for use if you plan to play @ 1920×1080, this goes alongside any other game you wish to play. GW2 is known to eat up near 1GB of VRAM @ 1920×1080, so if you had hopes to play other games on the new pc, you would be sorely disappointed. Hitting that vram wall in any game will show you no mercy and will suck so hard. 2GB is the sweet spot for 1920×1080 and 3GB/4GB for 2560×1440.

Yea…I have NO issues with my HD7790 at 1080p, and that’s with full details on anything I throw at it.

and GW2 does not use 1G VRAM at 1080p unless you are super sampling and have your character limit above medium. The Most I have ever seen GW2 for vRAM was 760~MB. (Sampling – Native, CharLimit – Low, CharQual – Medium, Rest on High/Ultra).

So I don’t get where you are seeing otherwise….

Yeah, no, not gonna happen, unless you change your resolution to 640×480 lol

Rawkan.3749:

Yeah, no, not gonna happen, unless you change your resolution to 640×480 lol

even then, its just not possible.

to run the game on max settings with a full map and expect 60FPS….its a pipe dream, and just is not currently possible on any available range of hardware.

locx.6412:

you can use sites like PassMarks Video Card Benchmarks or Futuremarks Benchmarks and see how the cards perform.

Anandtech is also pretty good.

locx.6412:

I would suggest going with Asus Z87-K and i3-4130 because the motherboard is actually cheaper than what you chose

Getting a Z87 mobo with an i3 isn’t really the wisest of investments, and if you’re not getting an i5 now but are planning on dropping another $230-240 on a new CPU not too far down the line, you’re just throwing away money. Imho, spring for the better CPU now and go with the iGPU or make a compromise, something like this:

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/2GdDT

A little on the high end of the budget, but you don’t really lose anywhere except you can’t OC.

sirsquishy.8531:

Yea…I have NO issues with my HD7790 at 1080p, and that’s with full details on anything I throw at it.

and GW2 does not use 1G VRAM at 1080p unless you are super sampling and have your character limit above medium. The Most I have ever seen GW2 for vRAM was 760~MB. (Sampling – Native, CharLimit – Low, CharQual – Medium, Rest on High/Ultra).

So I don’t get where you are seeing otherwise….

Well yeah, but you’re really gimping the game with culling. That’s realistically one of the last things that should go on; seeing people is quite important. You’re also losing a lot in terms of character quality there.

Also, when you say “full details”, is that everything turned on as high as it will go?

After several users were spreading false info about GW2 never eating more than 500MB vram I investigated and running the detailed preset will push 1Gb @ 1920×1080. Theres absolutely no sense in purchasing a card with under 2GB for a modern pc (keep in mind for gaming) unless it is an HTPC or office pc.

We have threads under this discussion over at Overclockers.com and Overclock.net showing graphs for point of comparison.

For instance, my Yamakasi Catleap 2560×1440 panel, I CAN run it off my 2GB GTX 680 Lightning, I most certainly can, but maxing out games like BF4 will hit a vram wall and introduce stutter at that res. Then again, I also wouldn’t want the 128-bit card either, at least not for gaming.

sobe.4157:

After several users were spreading false info about GW2 never eating more than 500MB vram I investigated and running the detailed preset will push 1Gb @ 1920×1080. Theres absolutely no sense in purchasing a card with under 2GB for a modern pc (keep in mind for gaming) unless it is an HTPC or office pc.

We have threads under this discussion over at Overclockers.com and Overclock.net showing graphs for point of comparison.

For instance, my Yamakasi Catleap 2560×1440 panel, I CAN run it off my 2GB GTX 680 Lightning, I most certainly can, but maxing out games like BF4 will hit a vram wall and introduce stutter at that res. Then again, I also wouldn’t want the 128-bit card either, at least not for gaming.

Please remember the topic of this OP. Gaming rig for 500-600. Anything that can push faster then a R7-260X or HD7790 is going to be 250-300 at a min. and then your talking 2GB vRAM 256bit memory interface….ect.

I am saying, and currently will until this changes, the R7-260x and HD7790 are the BEST CARDs for the price point of $99-$139. I am NOT saying they are the absolute Best cards there are.

And to get 2GB vRAM you are going to pay 30-40 more, in which case you should just jump to a Class 1 card. Which is not in the budget of many (including the OP) that I recommend those 2 cards to.

Yes, using the ingame presets will push the game to use 987MB of vRAM at 1080p. And while Culling will kitten the game, alot in some cases, to keep the game playable with 80+ players on the screen you have to adjust that setting.

If the game had zone specific, or Combat specific, settings that would change on what YOU are doing that would be awesome. But I hate messing with settings all the time, so I leave them for what works ‘best’ in the worst possible scenario.

Fermi.2409:

Well yeah, but you’re really gimping the game with culling. That’s realistically one of the last things that should go on; seeing people is quite important. You’re also losing a lot in terms of character quality there.

Also, when you say “full details”, is that everything turned on as high as it will go?

yes, but you still see name tiles. I have not seen a single rig that can handle the game on full detail and maintain a playable frame rate with out turning down culling.

Full Details = Ultra/Highest settings.

sirsquishy.8531:

Please remember the topic of this OP. Gaming rig for 500-600. Anything that can push faster then a R7-260X or HD7790 is going to be 250-300 at a min. and then your talking 2GB vRAM 256bit memory interface….ect.

I am saying, and currently will until this changes, the R7-260x and HD7790 are the BEST CARDs for the price point of $99-$139. I am NOT saying they are the absolute Best cards there are.

And to get 2GB vRAM you are going to pay 30-40 more, in which case you should just jump to a Class 1 card. Which is not in the budget of many (including the OP) that I recommend those 2 cards to.

You can get a 2 GB 7850 for like $150.

sirsquishy.8531:

yes, but you still see name tiles. I have not seen a single rig that can handle the game on full detail and maintain a playable frame rate with out turning down culling.

Full Details = Ultra/Highest settings.

Just having the nameplates isn’t the same, especially for trying to judge where large groups are/how many they are.

As for playable framerate on high details (sans reflections because of how messy that is), were you to get a decent GPU you should be fine. Especially for zerg content, 15-20 is easily playable. I do well enough dropping to ~8-10 in some areas.

@Fermi Xeon is an interesting choice, didn’t really think about it.

The reason I chose Z87-K is because it’s only $9 more expensive than an ASRock H87 board as discussed above. The purpose was exactly to leave room for possible upgrade, even if it never happens, it’s only 9 dollars more.

I couldn’t find which iGPU is in E3-1230, but 4670K has HD4600 and I’m willing to bet it’s lower. HD 7790 seems to be around 5,3 times more powerful than 4600 and I’m not too sure how that performs even on lowest graphics, better ask sirsquishy and then do the math. In any case I still wouldn’t rely on iGPU just to boost up CPU.

Just as a side note, at least I count the players in WvW from their nameplates.

I dont have any screenshots of WvW Zerg content, nor Boss train. Ill work on that tomorrow.

But here are screenshots I posted on the forum a while back.

LA → https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/125760/ss5.png

Boar non combat Low player Quanity(Eyefinity) → https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/125527/SS2.png

Boar Combat → https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/125528/SS4.png

These screenshots are before fixing Cooling issues, and pushing my OC on the GPU/CPU. My FPS is almost double now as opposed to these screenshots.

My main point with the motherboard is that if you’re spending so much getting a board that can be used for overclocking, get the CPU to go with it now and buy a GPU down the line. So, just get a 4670k with the board and no GPU. Otherwise, the money that was dropped on the i3 essentially just went down the drain. The iGPU will run the game fine until such time as it’s replaced.

As for the Xeon, it has no iGPU. It’s really just an iGPUless 3770- you can’t OC it. However, that lets you save on the mobo and get a real GPU, as well as being a pretty beefy chip. I may get one myself.

sirsquishy.8531:

and GW2 does not use 1G VRAM at 1080p unless you are super sampling and have your character limit above medium. The Most I have ever seen GW2 for vRAM was 760~MB. (Sampling – Native, CharLimit – Low, CharQual – Medium, Rest on High/Ultra).

a DirextX 9 game is never going to use more than 1 GB of RAM on a single monitor.

Avelos.6798:

sirsquishy.8531:

and GW2 does not use 1G VRAM at 1080p unless you are super sampling and have your character limit above medium. The Most I have ever seen GW2 for vRAM was 760~MB. (Sampling – Native, CharLimit – Low, CharQual – Medium, Rest on High/Ultra).

a DirextX 9 game is never going to use more than 1 GB of RAM on a single monitor.

Word. Never seen the game exceed 1GB of video memory (via Process Explorer).

Avelos.6798:

sirsquishy.8531:

and GW2 does not use 1G VRAM at 1080p unless you are super sampling and have your character limit above medium. The Most I have ever seen GW2 for vRAM was 760~MB. (Sampling – Native, CharLimit – Low, CharQual – Medium, Rest on High/Ultra).

a DirextX 9 game is never going to use more than 1 GB of RAM on a single monitor.

MSI AfterBurner must be lying then, I’ve seen 1.1GB of use @ 1920×1080 ;D No SuperSampling if I remember correctly. Of course my char limit would be maxed out though, why on earth would I have it on Medium :P

http://www.youtube.com/embed/JF2ICUz-IK4?vq=hd1080

Said screw it, recorded that with NV ShadowPlay showing 1.3GB use alongside my settings used in video. The GW2 myth about GW2 never using more than 1GB max is rubbish, granted it took a few minutes and some running around with camera looking in various direction, but the point remains. Look at the vram @ top left Be sure to play the vid in 1080p.

Obviously not the norm not around larger groups of people, but the point is still there.