Guild Wars 2

Vash.9183:

Not necessarily.

Nice try.

magikfox.9658:

Vash.9183:

Not necessarily.

Nice try.

Same to you. Nice try, bro. Nice try.

Vash.9183:

magikfox.9658:

Vash.9183:

Not necessarily.

Nice try.

Same to you. Nice try, bro. Nice try.

Wasn’t trying, bro. Nice try though, bro. Nice try.

Aggression is starting, watch us in action!

http://www.twitch.tv/vauxwell — NO DELAY!!

PredatoR.5247:

Aggression is starting, watch us in action!

http://www.twitch.tv/vauxwell — NO DELAY!!

Heh, the giant parachutes are a riot.

SleepingDragon.1596:

MagiKarp.8201:

SoR 375 ppt

Full Queues all maps, stacked! Stacked! huehuehuehuehue

Truth be told… I find it sometimes hard to believe, but once it passes 1am PST, SOR even with their huge leads for the time it ticks with 300+ pts do have outnumbered (formerly known as outmanned) on a couple of bl’s…

There’s reasons behind that and it’s not what it appears. Keep checking some more. Don’t think that after just one or two occassions that it’s like that always. I’m sure you’ll find yourself outnumbered too when you log onto your BG toon after 1am PST.

We at BG just have to play 24/7 the way we play on those hours you claim “passes 1am PST” (Your claim, not mines) and we’ll dominate throughout the day.

@SleepingDragon

Yes they do, as do we on every map that MERC isn’t on during Oceanic, yesterday we were “Outnumbered” on BG BL with MERC on map till SoR’s NA logged out.

They are ticking 300 because they’ve logged from EU to NA held their T3 objectives meaning they can go on the offensive. It stays at 300 ppt because HiRE, TW et al can waypoint into a t3 keep or continue to push a map zerg onto our paper keeps in our home bl / 1/2 offensive bls (usually) that is why it stays at 300 ppt, numbers isn’t everything in WvW, SoR can survive its apparently “weak” timezones due to having t3 with map zergs inside, but if you look at ppt today for example, SoR’s NA pushed into oceanic and held 300-400 ppt. SEA rocks round we flip all their wps and bring them down to 95 ppt but that doesn’t last long as we spent all sea getting them there then bang, EU hits our SEA logs out SoR’s ppt goes back to 250+ and BG+JQ do not have the forces to keep pressure up that SoR has through KISS, IRON, LUN, TW and their massive EST NA presence so that our BG PST logs in after 4-6 hours of SoR being able to t3 their bl and thirds ready for NA.

Also our NA fights bloody hard anyone calling them weak, I’d love to see you push back from SoR’s EU/EST domination on days that HB/RK do not raid, SoR can’t deny that from EST NA they have all their maps covered. BT is our only 100% EST NA guild.

MagiKarp.8201:

@SleepingDragon

Yes they do, as do we on every map that MERC isn’t on during Oceanic, yesterday we were “Outnumbered” on BG BL with MERC on map till SoR’s NA logged out.

They are ticking 300 because they’ve logged from EU to NA held their T3 objectives meaning they can go on the offensive. It stays at 300 ppt because HiRE, TW et al can waypoint into a t3 keep or continue to push a map zerg onto our paper keeps in our home bl / 1/2 offensive bls (usually) that is why it stays at 300 ppt, numbers isn’t everything in WvW, SoR can survive its apparently “weak” timezones due to having t3 with map zergs inside, but if you look at ppt today for example, SoR’s NA pushed into oceanic and held 300-400 ppt. SEA rocks round we flip all their wps and bring them down to 95 ppt but that doesn’t last long as we spent all sea getting them there then bang, EU hits our SEA logs out SoR’s ppt goes back to 250+ and BG+JQ do not have the forces to keep pressure up that SoR has through KISS, IRON, LUN, TW and their massive EST NA presence so that our BG PST logs in after 4-6 hours of SoR being able to t3 their bl and thirds ready for NA.

Also our NA fights bloody hard anyone calling them weak, I’d love to see you push back from SoR’s EU/EST domination on days that HB/RK do not raid, SoR can’t deny that from EST NA they have all their maps covered. BT is our only 100% EST NA guild.

Way to disregard your servermates in RISE, ICoa, KnT, GoF, OnS, etc

Avenge.1478:

MagiKarp.8201:

@SleepingDragon

Yes they do, as do we on every map that MERC isn’t on during Oceanic, yesterday we were “Outnumbered” on BG BL with MERC on map till SoR’s NA logged out.

They are ticking 300 because they’ve logged from EU to NA held their T3 objectives meaning they can go on the offensive. It stays at 300 ppt because HiRE, TW et al can waypoint into a t3 keep or continue to push a map zerg onto our paper keeps in our home bl / 1/2 offensive bls (usually) that is why it stays at 300 ppt, numbers isn’t everything in WvW, SoR can survive its apparently “weak” timezones due to having t3 with map zergs inside, but if you look at ppt today for example, SoR’s NA pushed into oceanic and held 300-400 ppt. SEA rocks round we flip all their wps and bring them down to 95 ppt but that doesn’t last long as we spent all sea getting them there then bang, EU hits our SEA logs out SoR’s ppt goes back to 250+ and BG+JQ do not have the forces to keep pressure up that SoR has through KISS, IRON, LUN, TW and their massive EST NA presence so that our BG PST logs in after 4-6 hours of SoR being able to t3 their bl and thirds ready for NA.

Also our NA fights bloody hard anyone calling them weak, I’d love to see you push back from SoR’s EU/EST domination on days that HB/RK do not raid, SoR can’t deny that from EST NA they have all their maps covered. BT is our only 100% EST NA guild.

Way to disregard your servermates in RISE, ICoa, KnT, GoF, OnS, etc

Huh? We’re all PST guilds for the most part. I’m not even sure what you mean by this statement actually.

I wish we had EU coverage that can make everything paper and fortify our keeps so our insane NA can start on the offensive with map zergs.

Also wish we had SF and SG to double-team SoR with every day. That’d be cool.

Must be nice. Huehueheuhue.

kyro.8162:

Ferris Bewler.9706:

Ok with all the RG talk I would like to interject that KnT has had the opportunity to fight them not GVG but open field on many occasions, on both of their visits to NA tier 1. Just because you don’t GVG them doesn’t mean tha your a crap guild. Believe me we have fought them more times than some of you have GVGed them. Matter of fact I think they have a video of about the nastiest 3 way fight you’ll ever see in GW 2 between us RG and VOTF in the dredge tunnel in EB. But just because we don’t GVG doesn’t mean that we didn’t seek out fights with them.

And another thing , for all the SOR players saying BGs NA is weak, it may no be our strongest time slot, but we have plenty of guilds in that time that you have a ton of trouble facing. So yeah we has a strong oceanic group but I’m tired of you saying BGs NA is crap. If hats the case then the rest of SORs guilds that don’t play prime time NA are also, well terrible. Even though that’s not true, that’s what SOR would have you believe about BGs NA. Get over yourselves.

The real reason people are calling BGs NA weak is because they want BGs NA to try to prove them wrong.
BG
NA (11): KnT, ICOA, BT, RISE, GOF, ATAC, RIOT, RUIN, WORK, RESO, OnS
SoR
NA (11): TW, FEAR, Tsym, Choo, LUN, Hel, PLUM, BMS, CAPS, VNG, HL
Those are all the NA guilds I remember seeing out in force for a majority of the week. It may be outdated as I haven’t been online in a few weeks, but overall BG and SoR has comparable NA.

It looks like you’re basically splitting up AoI in your example, which was an alliance of smaller guilds some of which don’t even have activ commanders playing anymore (I mean, I haven’t seen Kurthos in donkeys years in respect to Work). I don’t even know who RESO is supposed to be, it could be resonance (a GMT+10 PvX guild that has one or two player that actually play WvW). Overall SoR has always had a strong numerical advantage against other servers NA, not to say that they lack skill as FEAR and TW are better than average guilds on field.

I wish we had incentive and capabilities to deliberately double team. Oh wait, I actually enjoy a challenge.

I don’t get it. We tick at 350 during NA Primetime on NA servers and BG ticks at 350 during both JQ and SoR off-hours.

I wish ArenaNet would throw the scores out the window and just have WvW be territorial based.

Raven Paradox.1860:

I don’t get it. We tick at 350 during NA Primetime on NA servers and BG ticks at 350 during both JQ and SoR off-hours.

I wish ArenaNet would throw the scores out the window and just have WvW be territorial based.

You can thank your European coverage for that ppt. Your NA started with 350 ppt and upgraded keeps/towers and have been holding them effectively.

Vash.9183:

Raven Paradox.1860:

I don’t get it. We tick at 350 during NA Primetime on NA servers and BG ticks at 350 during both JQ and SoR off-hours.

I wish ArenaNet would throw the scores out the window and just have WvW be territorial based.

You can thank your European coverage for that ppt. Your NA started with 350 ppt and upgraded keeps/towers and have been holding them effectively.

Today at least you can thank overtime.

We suffered a much smaller window of Waha making all of our stuff paper and almost kept pace with BG most of the day, However, BG still increased it’s lead by 4lk during the day.

We started the day down by 3k and got back to that margin ~midnight EST.

Fact.5908:

I wish we had incentive and capabilities to deliberately double team. Oh wait, I actually enjoy a challenge.

Running in those blobs 24/7 is a challenge now? You almost had me.

globe.7238:

Fact.5908:

I wish we had incentive and capabilities to deliberately double team. Oh wait, I actually enjoy a challenge.

Running in those blobs 24/7 is a challenge now? You almost had me.

Posting it twice doesn’t make it true.

Shifty.3412:

globe.7238:

Fact.5908:

I wish we had incentive and capabilities to deliberately double team. Oh wait, I actually enjoy a challenge.

Running in those blobs 24/7 is a challenge now? You almost had me.

Posting it twice doesn’t make it true.

Thats right, seeing it daily does though. I’ll start frapsing it for ya and make a nice little video just to please you. They say the truth hurts, safety in numbers huh?

I heard 2 NA guilds are shutting down on BG(guild implosion). that sucks so bad. I’ll give out the 1st one: RISE. 2nd one is still unsure

MagiKarp.8201:

@SleepingDragon

Yes they do, as do we on every map that MERC isn’t on during Oceanic, yesterday we were “Outnumbered” on BG BL with MERC on map till SoR’s NA logged out.

They are ticking 300 because they’ve logged from EU to NA held their T3 objectives meaning they can go on the offensive. It stays at 300 ppt because HiRE, TW et al can waypoint into a t3 keep or continue to push a map zerg onto our paper keeps in our home bl / 1/2 offensive bls (usually) that is why it stays at 300 ppt, numbers isn’t everything in WvW, SoR can survive its apparently “weak” timezones due to having t3 with map zergs inside, but if you look at ppt today for example, SoR’s NA pushed into oceanic and held 300-400 ppt. SEA rocks round we flip all their wps and bring them down to 95 ppt but that doesn’t last long as we spent all sea getting them there then bang, EU hits our SEA logs out SoR’s ppt goes back to 250+ and BG+JQ do not have the forces to keep pressure up that SoR has through KISS, IRON, LUN, TW and their massive EST NA presence so that our BG PST logs in after 4-6 hours of SoR being able to t3 their bl and thirds ready for NA.

Also our NA fights bloody hard anyone calling them weak, I’d love to see you push back from SoR’s EU/EST domination on days that HB/RK do not raid, SoR can’t deny that from EST NA they have all their maps covered. BT is our only 100% EST NA guild.

SoR’s just jelly cuz MERC isn’t on their server :P

Kathy K.6812:

MagiKarp.8201:

@SleepingDragon

Yes they do, as do we on every map that MERC isn’t on during Oceanic, yesterday we were “Outnumbered” on BG BL with MERC on map till SoR’s NA logged out.

They are ticking 300 because they’ve logged from EU to NA held their T3 objectives meaning they can go on the offensive. It stays at 300 ppt because HiRE, TW et al can waypoint into a t3 keep or continue to push a map zerg onto our paper keeps in our home bl / 1/2 offensive bls (usually) that is why it stays at 300 ppt, numbers isn’t everything in WvW, SoR can survive its apparently “weak” timezones due to having t3 with map zergs inside, but if you look at ppt today for example, SoR’s NA pushed into oceanic and held 300-400 ppt. SEA rocks round we flip all their wps and bring them down to 95 ppt but that doesn’t last long as we spent all sea getting them there then bang, EU hits our SEA logs out SoR’s ppt goes back to 250+ and BG+JQ do not have the forces to keep pressure up that SoR has through KISS, IRON, LUN, TW and their massive EST NA presence so that our BG PST logs in after 4-6 hours of SoR being able to t3 their bl and thirds ready for NA.

Also our NA fights bloody hard anyone calling them weak, I’d love to see you push back from SoR’s EU/EST domination on days that HB/RK do not raid, SoR can’t deny that from EST NA they have all their maps covered. BT is our only 100% EST NA guild.

SoR’s just jelly cuz MERC isn’t on their server :P

But they do have the new and improved TW! Playing EU, NA, and Oceanic with map zergs in each one! Haha! Hehe. Hoohoo…

gg

i havent seen TKG ever since i heard them move to BG, not on any BL nor EB.

Zagan.5287:

I heard 2 NA guilds are shutting down on BG(guild implosion). that sucks so bad. I’ll give out the 1st one: RISE. 2nd one is still unsure

lol what? where did you get that information from? couldn’t be further from the truth. Really curious to where you even came up with this though…

Either way had a blast fighting Choo and LUN today on JQ BL.

Take care of our waypoint

Never mind, thought the guy was serious. Looked at his post history, seems he’s just a troll.

you’re pretty sad Hollywood

Guys stop posting and watching what you can’t even do yourself. Go training. Cute people…

On SoR we are all pulling massive overtime atm to try and get back into the match up after being nearly 15k down. It’s not simply a matter of coverage. I know Iron are working in small numbers from oceanic time onwards. Hire and the Asian guilds are doing an awesome job of keeping ourselves in the fight during the period where we simply do not have the numbers.

As for Eu time last night BG seemed to have forces on most maps, even when we tried to pull them off the borders by attacking their eb keep. Was an impressive save at the keep from BG.

Exciting match up this one.

Zeke Azul Falcon.5176:

i havent seen TKG ever since i heard them move to BG, not on any BL nor EB.

Well you obviously missed them help cap SoR garrison on reset night, painted JQ BL red Sunday night and last night they held down BG BL for 4 hours keeping it nice and shiny red.

Glad to have TKG here ^^

Kreamciqul.4617:

Never mind, thought the guy was serious. Looked at his post history, seems he’s just a troll.

Why don’t use ask Jarvin and your ex-commanders.

Zagan.5287:

Kreamciqul.4617:

Never mind, thought the guy was serious. Looked at his post history, seems he’s just a troll.

Why don’t use ask Jarvin and your ex-commanders.

I’m an officer. Stop posting garbage that isn’t even relatively true. Thanks.

Lets keep this thread on topic also

What happened last night then?

Offski.4897:

On SoR we are all pulling massive overtime atm to try and get back into the match up after being nearly 15k down. It’s not simply a matter of coverage. I know Iron are working in small numbers from oceanic time onwards. Hire and the Asian guilds are doing an awesome job of keeping ourselves in the fight during the period where we simply do not have the numbers.

As for Eu time last night BG seemed to have forces on most maps, even when we tried to pull them off the borders by attacking their eb keep. Was an impressive save at the keep from BG.

Exciting match up this one.

We didn’t Ralikh was leading a float team across all 3 borderlands, might of seemed like we did, but Ralikh was stretching thin til 3am. Meanwhile; LUN, IRON, KISS, TW was painful.

good fight last night from SOR on EB, you guys are tough. but those IRON necros man they are swarming.

So SoR has had 300-375 ppt average all day ever since EU, and it is about to be SEA time yet BG is so extremely stacked that we are borderline Vizunah Square according to SoR posters.

I don’t even. SoR 440 ppt, best Oceanic. huehuehuehue

Hey all, maybe we can keep on-topic or come up with new discussions instead of the complaining about the same things week in and out. It really doesn’t serve any purpose.

covenn.7165:

Hey all, maybe we can keep on-topic or come up with new discussions instead of the complaining about the same things week in and out. It really doesn’t serve any purpose.

Dude, there’s only so much that can happen in these match-ups. What do you expect? :P

Vash.9183:

So SoR has had 300-375 ppt average all day ever since EU, and it is about to be SEA time yet BG is so extremely stacked that we are borderline Vizunah Square according to SoR posters.

I don’t even. SoR 440 ppt, best Oceanic. huehuehuehue

Sorry Vash, but don’t you ever get sick of constantly whining about coverage? It’s pretty evident BG has the best overall coverage. What you see right now is simply our drunk NA at work. Trust me, SoRs ppt is never that good in Oceanic. BG still has the best Oceanic coverage with ND, MERC, CA, WM, XF and NOC. I believe XF, ND and WM are SEA, but some of them start early almost everyday to help MERC and co. Don’t worry, things wont be so lopsided soon. Overtime does not mean better coverage.

Anyway, Thanks for being with SoR, BG and JQ. Any other match up would be insane PvDoor from us 24/7. Thanks for making things interesting! <3 you guys.

Azure.8412:

Vash.9183:

So SoR has had 300-375 ppt average all day ever since EU, and it is about to be SEA time yet BG is so extremely stacked that we are borderline Vizunah Square according to SoR posters.

I don’t even. SoR 440 ppt, best Oceanic. huehuehuehue

Sorry Vash, but don’t you ever get sick of constantly whining about coverage? It’s pretty evident BG has the best overall coverage. What you see right now is simply our drunk NA at work. Trust me, SoRs ppt is never that good in Oceanic. BG still has the best Oceanic coverage with ND, MERC, CA, WM, XF and NOC. I believe XF, ND and WM are SEA, but some of them start early almost everyday to help MERC and co. Don’t worry, things wont be so lopsided soon. Overtime does not mean better coverage.

Lol drunk NA doesn’t get you over 300 PPT all throughout the day and 440+ PPT during Oceanic/SEA.

That’s called over-stacking your server… I hope JQ and BG can get more transfers to balance out against SoR’s ridiculous coverage.

appreciate all the sor NA staying up to be farmed, thanks lads

oxide.8324:

appreciate all the sor NA staying up to be farmed, thanks lads

You have to kill me to farm me. That is the first step young grasshopper.

Kathy K.6812:

Lol drunk NA doesn’t get you over 300 PPT all throughout the day and 440+ PPT during Oceanic/SEA.

That’s called over-stacking your server… I hope JQ and BG can get more transfers to balance out against SoR’s ridiculous coverage.

- Hey, BG have those guilds, and we have only…
- LOL U OVERSTACKED RECRUIT MOAR
- But we dont have any recent transfers…
- LOL U OVERSTACKED RECRUIT MOAR
- But your ppt was much higher with same guilds on SoR and BG…
- LOL U OVERSTACKED RECRUIT MOAR
- Hey, do you even listen?
- LOL U OVERSTACKED RECRUIT MOAR

Dat forum troll logic.

Vash.9183:

Kathy K.6812:

MagiKarp.8201:

@SleepingDragon

Yes they do, as do we on every map that MERC isn’t on during Oceanic, yesterday we were “Outnumbered” on BG BL with MERC on map till SoR’s NA logged out.

They are ticking 300 because they’ve logged from EU to NA held their T3 objectives meaning they can go on the offensive. It stays at 300 ppt because HiRE, TW et al can waypoint into a t3 keep or continue to push a map zerg onto our paper keeps in our home bl / 1/2 offensive bls (usually) that is why it stays at 300 ppt, numbers isn’t everything in WvW, SoR can survive its apparently “weak” timezones due to having t3 with map zergs inside, but if you look at ppt today for example, SoR’s NA pushed into oceanic and held 300-400 ppt. SEA rocks round we flip all their wps and bring them down to 95 ppt but that doesn’t last long as we spent all sea getting them there then bang, EU hits our SEA logs out SoR’s ppt goes back to 250+ and BG+JQ do not have the forces to keep pressure up that SoR has through KISS, IRON, LUN, TW and their massive EST NA presence so that our BG PST logs in after 4-6 hours of SoR being able to t3 their bl and thirds ready for NA.

Also our NA fights bloody hard anyone calling them weak, I’d love to see you push back from SoR’s EU/EST domination on days that HB/RK do not raid, SoR can’t deny that from EST NA they have all their maps covered. BT is our only 100% EST NA guild.

SoR’s just jelly cuz MERC isn’t on their server :P

But they do have the new and improved TW! Playing EU, NA, and Oceanic with map zergs in each one! Haha! Hehe. Hoohoo…

gg

TW oceanic? What?

Kathy K.6812:

Azure.8412:

Vash.9183:

So SoR has had 300-375 ppt average all day ever since EU, and it is about to be SEA time yet BG is so extremely stacked that we are borderline Vizunah Square according to SoR posters.

I don’t even. SoR 440 ppt, best Oceanic. huehuehuehue

Sorry Vash, but don’t you ever get sick of constantly whining about coverage? It’s pretty evident BG has the best overall coverage. What you see right now is simply our drunk NA at work. Trust me, SoRs ppt is never that good in Oceanic. BG still has the best Oceanic coverage with ND, MERC, CA, WM, XF and NOC. I believe XF, ND and WM are SEA, but some of them start early almost everyday to help MERC and co. Don’t worry, things wont be so lopsided soon. Overtime does not mean better coverage.

Lol drunk NA doesn’t get you over 300 PPT all throughout the day and 440+ PPT during Oceanic/SEA.

That’s called over-stacking your server… I hope JQ and BG can get more transfers to balance out against SoR’s ridiculous coverage.

I’m sorry BG does not need any more transfers, you guys already have enough. If you don’t know what over-stacked means, look at your server and SoR. Both of your servers are stacked, get over it.

Hawkeye.4698:

I’m sorry BG does not need any more transfers, you guys already have enough. If you don’t know what over-stacked means, look at your server and SoR. Both of your servers are stacked, get over it.

Actually, it is you that needs to ’get over it." Did you have any issues, Hawkeye, when JQ was “over-stacked” back when JQ was the top dog server?! I think not despite how you or any others may wish to spout. Hey, on a good note, I heard Walmart has Kleenex on sale….

Rednik.3809:

Kathy K.6812:

Lol drunk NA doesn’t get you over 300 PPT all throughout the day and 440+ PPT during Oceanic/SEA.

That’s called over-stacking your server… I hope JQ and BG can get more transfers to balance out against SoR’s ridiculous coverage.

- But we dont have any recent transfers…

Dat forum troll logic.

I’m fairly certain KISS & SONG were recent…

SOR definitely needs a few more asian and oceanic wvw guilds, but is certainly stacked in both NA and EU and needs no more guilds in those timezones. I hope even the BG and JQ trolls can agree on this -__-

Hawkeye.4698:

Kathy K.6812:

Azure.8412:

Vash.9183:

So SoR has had 300-375 ppt average all day ever since EU, and it is about to be SEA time yet BG is so extremely stacked that we are borderline Vizunah Square according to SoR posters.

I don’t even. SoR 440 ppt, best Oceanic. huehuehuehue

Sorry Vash, but don’t you ever get sick of constantly whining about coverage? It’s pretty evident BG has the best overall coverage. What you see right now is simply our drunk NA at work. Trust me, SoRs ppt is never that good in Oceanic. BG still has the best Oceanic coverage with ND, MERC, CA, WM, XF and NOC. I believe XF, ND and WM are SEA, but some of them start early almost everyday to help MERC and co. Don’t worry, things wont be so lopsided soon. Overtime does not mean better coverage.

Lol drunk NA doesn’t get you over 300 PPT all throughout the day and 440+ PPT during Oceanic/SEA.

That’s called over-stacking your server… I hope JQ and BG can get more transfers to balance out against SoR’s ridiculous coverage.

I’m sorry BG does not need any more transfers, you guys already have enough. If you don’t know what over-stacked means, look at your server and SoR. Both of your servers are stacked, get over it.

Any server that easily ticks 300+ PPT all throughout the day any time they want is a stacked server… SoR has a huge presence 24/7 & it’ll be tough for any server to compete unless the other 2 servers get the coverage to balance things out.

I don’t think so Renmei

Oceanic no way,

SEA maybe, but if SoR had the same SEA as BG (they have more than JQ now) it would be that fabled “HoD 2.0”.

But I don’t think SoR needs any help in SEA right now as they have the sweetest ride in every other timezone. Only reason recently we’ve been able to break SoR’s WP’s during SEA is because ATM isn’t kicking us in the sides every night, I mean they could so easily make us lose this matchup by focusing nothing but us, but Waha isn’t a fool.

renmei.3102:

SOR definitely needs a few more asian and oceanic wvw guilds, but is certainly stacked in both NA and EU and needs no more guilds in those timezones. I hope even the BG and JQ trolls can agree on this -__-

Yah, IRON and KISS, 2 actual EU guilds makes the timezone stacked when BG has 2 EU guilds of their own, not our fault that the BG ones are useless