Born and raised in Sorrow’s Furnace – WvWvWest Coast Squad
“All hail the mighty Flame Ram!!!” – said by Someone Somewhere at Sometime
Siege creep? Is that a word? Never even heard of this but you seem to be familiar with it.
Creeping with siege? Like, shhh I’mma just quietly build this ballista, right here, enemy won’t notice, surprise kittens, ballista spreadshot to the face, even though we had a nice open field fight going on. Siege creepin’. Or it’s when a trebuchet with a neckbeard hits on you in a bar and invites you to go see his Pearl Jam cover band play in his garage next weekend. I always get the definitions mixed up.
LOL, this is NOT the siege blueprint you are looking for. Move along…
And ya, trebuchets are always a bit of a loner. Except when I look in all the keeps and castle on EB. Those trebuchets always have a friend around…
I did notice AR change their playstyle slightly too. They deserve it more than Kaineng IMO.
Yeah I mean AR was rank 23 or 24 beating a server much higher ranked than them is pretty good I hope they and GoM keep it up.
It’s funny, we keep telling you guys that we have less numbers than both servers. Just because we’re ranked 16 does not actually mean we have those numbers or anything remotely close to it. Our population is 1/4 of what is was 2 weeks ago so the fact that we even hold anything during NA prime is a miracle. On our best night we’ll field maybe 30-40 people total so we’re content with how we’re doing in our match-ups considering what we have. We may not win anything against your numbers, but we’ll always come out and fight.
Fairly sure you have about the same active WvW pop that AR does, possibly more. Most servers really have no idea as to the actual active population they are fielding. I tend to be on quite a bit, and 30-40 regularly would be welcome numbers.
I’ve yet to see us field more than AR in this match-up and I’m usually on every night in NA prime jumping from map to map for the first few hours to see where most the action is. AR and KN have similar coverage but unfortunately, Anvil Rock seem to be able to pull more people into a blob than we can. KN players are actually excited when we can get 10+ together lol. Most of the time we don’t even have enough people to get Siegerazer going lol.
Example:
Last night, we had a group of about 15-20 in KBL re-taking Garrison, Bay, and Hills. People in the zerg (yes we call that our zerg) were saying we should hit SM. Not sure if the zerg eventually left to hit SM or not, but yeah, we get excited over such trivial things
Siege creep? Is that a word? Never even heard of this but you seem to be familiar with it.
Creeping with siege? Like, shhh I’mma just quietly build this ballista, right here, enemy won’t notice, surprise kittens, ballista spreadshot to the face, even though we had a nice open field fight going on. Siege creepin’. Or it’s when a trebuchet with a neckbeard hits on you in a bar and invites you to go see his Pearl Jam cover band play in his garage next weekend. I always get the definitions mixed up.
This was..
epic.
I meant to post this earlier amongst the talk of recruitment, but i am currently updating our recruitment thread and image!
http://i.imgur.com/aEWnAxX.jpg
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/recruitment/Join-SF-Need-300-More-nightcrew
For the most part SF is lacking during the Oceanic hours, but I just tried making a dent in that tonight. Kept us above 300 PPT from 1am to 7am, painting BLs blue and keeping all the keeps paper in both BLs. I thought we’d see more AR and KN out there, had a couple decent fights, but it was mostly just a karma train so I could waste my birthday booster
Good fight between Bay and the camp last night. I can’t remember who we were fighting lol, but it was good. Best one in a long time.
Clint, you never cease to give me a chuckle. And since you are using Auroras pic in your recruiting thread, here is a shot of her in her sexy Vatlaaws set instead of my “ugly as kitten guild armor” as you so state.
Had some fun on my BL last night testing out my Guard in his zerker gear. Def not gonna do that with large group play, but made for some fun fights 1v1 or with small groups. Gotta do that more often just to keep things interesting. hehe
LOL, why is it that when I actually ever stop to 1v1 or 1v2 folks on their BL, they always end up getting reinforcements? I am just a widdle, wimpy warrior so I run away after it getw to be more than 1v2 (me being the ONE in that equation) and then they chase me across the map until I get to the zerg. Must be my eau de toilette.
And the fact that on SF we are 300% hotter.
Clint, you never cease to give me a chuckle. And since you are using Auroras pic in your recruiting thread, here is a shot of her in her sexy Vatlaaws set instead of my “ugly as kitten guild armor” as you so state.
lol ill add that new pic into the next revision, im gonna throw my sexy warrior in there as well
anyone interested in having a fightnight this week?
anyone interested in having a fightnight this week?
Oh look the guy with 2 (two) warriors wants to have fight night, shocking….
JK bro, yeah I will probably be there, last week we had about 5-6 show up which I thought was good seeing as how we are supposed to be “srs bzns” about leagues and whatnot.
If nothing explodes and needs my attention at work I might try to show up for some fun/build testing.
yeah i have two warriors so what? i prefer not retraiting and switching gear everytime i want to play 2 completely different builds. I like them both equally so they are both considered my mains. last fight night had majority mesmer, necro, and thieves, with only a few warrior, ele, guards participating.
this is more of a challenge to SF. HoD and Ferg had some good fighters representing last week, i’d like to see if SF has any good fighters too. i’ve already met some good AR roaming around, hope they can participate as well.
this is more of a challenge to SF. HoD and Ferg had some good fighters representing last week, i’d like to see if SF has any good fighters too. i’ve already met some good AR roaming around, hope they can participate as well.
eye roll Yes people will come duel your Meta S/S warrior….
Good fight with SF by SW tower KBL. [MvM] was the guild leading SF I believe, at least that was the guild tag of the Guard with the ghost tonic. You guys kept coming back like there was no tomorrow too. We need some more of those fights!! Good stuff
just found out today that SF best roamers like to hangout in our BL. thanks for the 1v1s at windmill, u guys are great.
looking forward to thursday night fights!
Hey matchup mates, Beasty CO [BC] joined Kaineng earlier this week to help fight the good WvW fight in Bronze League. No Ques equal big win.
Anvil Rock, we must apologize, but nothing can be red until we solidly have 2nd place in this fight in hand. Sorry for the inconvenience. I heard the Toxic PVE is pretty good.
Kaineng militia, good job tonight as we BL hopped. Wiped a good amount of SF groups though the US evening. Thanks for the bags SF. Looking forward to making any zerg second thought charging at a Kaineng group.
Alright guys im finally finished with this verison.
Good fight with SF by SW tower KBL. [MvM] was the guild leading SF I believe, at least that was the guild tag of the Guard with the ghost tonic. You guys kept coming back like there was no tomorrow too. We need some more of those fights!! Good stuff
Yea that was a pretty good fight. We had a couple groups there, MvM was doing the heavy lifting and we had a small OS lead group with a couple CoSA and Shin.
Good fight with SF by SW tower KBL. [MvM] was the guild leading SF I believe, at least that was the guild tag of the Guard with the ghost tonic. You guys kept coming back like there was no tomorrow too. We need some more of those fights!! Good stuff
Yea that was a pretty good fight. We had a couple groups there, MvM was doing the heavy lifting and we had a small OS lead group with a couple CoSA and Shin.
more like heavy dying. SF sucks
To anyone involved in the epic battle for KN’s T3 garri right now… GG
Hey matchup mates, Beasty CO [BC] joined Kaineng earlier this week to help fight the good WvW fight in Bronze League. No Ques equal big win.
Anvil Rock, we must apologize, but nothing can be red until we solidly have 2nd place in this fight in hand. Sorry for the inconvenience. I heard the Toxic PVE is pretty good.
Kaineng militia, good job tonight as we BL hopped. Wiped a good amount of SF groups though the US evening. Thanks for the bags SF. Looking forward to making any zerg second thought charging at a Kaineng group.
We saw your post, so we took your garrison. All 26 of us. We were expecting skill, not people proud of wiping our pug groups. Minor let down aside, thanks for filling up our bags, we were looking for people to farm all week and the new PvE crap is boring.
Does anyone else laugh as hard as I do at all the forum reporters in this thread?
(edited by King Amadaeus.8619)
The Roaming Rangers of [Lgnd] Anvil rock. 0-1 vs one (nice burst bro). need a rematch and i want to fight vs the asura wielding a dreamer. you were the talk in my guild at LoTa. Catch you in the ruins.
regards,
The Spirit ranger Recruit of [IOO] or [MATH]
The Roaming Rangers of [Lgnd] Anvil rock. 0-1 vs one (nice burst bro). need a rematch and i want to fight vs the asura wielding a dreamer. you were the talk in my guild at LoTa. Catch you in the ruins.
regards,
The Spirit ranger Recruit of [IOO] or [MATH]
Needs moar acronyms ASAP.
Yea that was a pretty good fight. We had a couple groups there, MvM was doing the heavy lifting and we had a small OS lead group with a couple CoSA and Shin.
Don’t know who was doing the heavy lifting, but you guys kept coming back with more and more people. It got close a few times there, but overall, it was a good way to start the night.
(edited by Noobie.1073)
in-game tag Oakvenom of SF
Had a nice time dueling you bro. You definitely know how to play your ranger. It was very hard to close the gap against you. we’ll have to try again some time. Stay classy
To anyone involved in the epic battle for KN’s T3 garri right now… GG
That was a good fight. Not sure how it ended cause it was pretty late where I was at so I logged off, but you guys had good fortitude to keep trying. Good siege battle there for a while.
in-game tag Oakvenom of SF
Had a nice time dueling you bro. You definitely know how to play your ranger. It was very hard to close the gap against you. we’ll have to try again some time. Stay classy
Oh yeah he is good
Yes he is good. And 300% hotter…
Ought to re-title this thread SF frottage
Ought to re-title this thread SF frottage
If you would like…
Ought to re-title this thread SF frottage
Too lazy to switch accounts?
in-game tag Oakvenom of SF
Had a nice time dueling you bro. You definitely know how to play your ranger. It was very hard to close the gap against you. we’ll have to try again some time. Stay classy
Oh yeah he is good
We dueled like 10 times…I only managed to down him 4 times I believe. You can tell he does his homework on the strengths of the ranger class. I left the duel thoroughly impressed, not only by his class, but his skill as well.
Edit:
After countless “acknowledged” (/bow) duels turned ugly by sore losers, I was convinced there were no classy players in SF. I haven’t had one duel (until last night against Oakvenom) where I didn’t get jumped and ganked by the losing guy/girl’s team mates after downing the other player. This has led me to start /point and /laugh or /dance on all downed opponents before stomping them in the open field. Not sure if these guys were just PvE pugs that came to get achievements (from some of their rankings, i doubt it) but none the less, I will stop the emotes for now
in-game tag Oakvenom of SF
Had a nice time dueling you bro. You definitely know how to play your ranger. It was very hard to close the gap against you. we’ll have to try again some time. Stay classy
Oh yeah he is good
We dueled like 10 times…I only managed to down him 4 times I believe. You can tell he does his homework on the strengths of the ranger class. I left the duel thoroughly impressed, not only by his class, but his skill as well.
Edit:
After countless “acknowledged” (/bow) duels turned ugly by sore losers, I was convinced there were no classy players in SF. I haven’t had one duel (until last night against Oakvenom) where I didn’t get jumped and ganked by the losing guy/girl’s team mates after downing the other player. This has led me to start /point and /laugh or /dance on all downed opponents before stomping them in the open field. Not sure if these guys were just PvE pugs that came to get achievements (from some of their rankings, i doubt it) but none the less, I will stop the emotes for now
Yeah that has never happened to us whilst fighting Kaineng, only SF people do that.
Also I know we are all just super broken up about your use of emotes (well those of us who haven’t turned them off the first week we had the game), I for one, will be crying specifically about it tonight.
In other news, I hope to have more of you rage-PM me tonight it gives me a chuckle. I think I get more PMs from Kain than I do from anyone else.
in-game tag Oakvenom of SF
Had a nice time dueling you bro. You definitely know how to play your ranger. It was very hard to close the gap against you. we’ll have to try again some time. Stay classy
Oh yeah he is good
We dueled like 10 times…I only managed to down him 4 times I believe. You can tell he does his homework on the strengths of the ranger class. I left the duel thoroughly impressed, not only by his class, but his skill as well.
Edit:
After countless “acknowledged” (/bow) duels turned ugly by sore losers, I was convinced there were no classy players in SF. I haven’t had one duel (until last night against Oakvenom) where I didn’t get jumped and ganked by the losing guy/girl’s team mates after downing the other player. This has led me to start /point and /laugh or /dance on all downed opponents before stomping them in the open field. Not sure if these guys were just PvE pugs that came to get achievements (from some of their rankings, i doubt it) but none the less, I will stop the emotes for nowYeah that has never happened to us whilst fighting Kaineng, only SF people do that.
Also I know we are all just super broken up about your use of emotes (well those of us who haven’t turned them off the first week we had the game), I for one, will be crying specifically about it tonight.
In other news, I hope to have more of you rage-PM me tonight it gives me a chuckle. I think I get more PMs from Kain than I do from anyone else.
You only get /shrug out of me.
Yeah that has never happened to us whilst fighting Kaineng, only SF people do that.
Also I know we are all just super broken up about your use of emotes (well those of us who haven’t turned them off the first week we had the game), I for one, will be crying specifically about it tonight.
In other news, I hope to have more of you rage-PM me tonight it gives me a chuckle. I think I get more PMs from Kain than I do from anyone else.
Make sure you use Kleenex brand tissues. They are soft for the eyes
Yeah that has never happened to us whilst fighting Kaineng, only SF people do that.
Also I know we are all just super broken up about your use of emotes (well those of us who haven’t turned them off the first week we had the game), I for one, will be crying specifically about it tonight.
In other news, I hope to have more of you rage-PM me tonight it gives me a chuckle. I think I get more PMs from Kain than I do from anyone else.
You only get /shrug out of me.
I don’t really care to lose, but seriously, why duel someone only to gank them when you’re losing/lost? Throughout the months and months of playing GW2 WvWvW, I’ve only experienced this consistently this week. Sure there have been isolated situations in the past with other servers and i’m sure KN does this as well, just saying that this is a consistent scenario night in and night out and only with SF players (not all but most) that I’ve dueled in this match-up. AR players that I’ve dueled have yet to do this.
@King Amadaeus.8619, no I have not dueled your entire server, this is simply my impression of the ones I’ve met and have had acknowledged duels with. It goes to all servers, Kaineng included, don’t acknowledge a duel and proceed to gank the guy when you lose.
Yeah that has never happened to us whilst fighting Kaineng, only SF people do that.
Also I know we are all just super broken up about your use of emotes (well those of us who haven’t turned them off the first week we had the game), I for one, will be crying specifically about it tonight.
In other news, I hope to have more of you rage-PM me tonight it gives me a chuckle. I think I get more PMs from Kain than I do from anyone else.
You only get /shrug out of me.
I don’t really care to lose, but seriously, why duel someone only to gank them when you’re losing/lost? Throughout the months and months of playing GW2 WvWvW, I’ve only experienced this consistently this week. Sure there have been isolated situations in the past with other servers and i’m sure KN does this as well, just saying that this is a consistent scenario night in and night out and only with SF players (not all but most) that I’ve dueled in this match-up. AR players that I’ve dueled have yet to do this.
@King Amadaeus.8619, no I have not dueled your entire server, this is simply my impression of the ones I’ve met and have had acknowledged duels with. It goes to all servers, Kaineng included, don’t acknowledge a duel and proceed to gank the guy when you lose.
Think of it this way. SF is a PvE server who has a kick-kitten WvW core group. I highly doubt that those folks you are talking about are part of our wuvwuv regulars. We have had a high influx of PvE (as have most servers, we just have A LOT of them) folks into WvW. None of them understand the mechanics of duels. I doubt they were allowing a duel only to stomp you when you won, could have been though. If they were, I apologize for them. It is much more likely that they saw an enemy down someone on their side so they took action. Were they standing around for the entire duel from the start?
We do try to cover this stuff in our weekly training sessions but a lot of the little things like that get lost in the heat of the moment.
Think of it this way. SF is a PvE server who has a kick-kitten WvW core group. I highly doubt that those folks you are talking about are part of our wuvwuv regulars. We have had a high influx of PvE (as have most servers, we just have A LOT of them) folks into WvW. None of them understand the mechanics of duels. I doubt they were allowing a duel only to stomp you when you won, could have been though. If they were, I apologize for them. It is much more likely that they saw an enemy down someone on their side so they took action. Were they standing around for the entire duel from the start?
We do try to cover this stuff in our weekly training sessions but a lot of the little things like that get lost in the heat of the moment.
I don’t really care if a fight is happening and a random runs in thinking he needs to help. I think that is just the natural response in WvW, these specific scenarios were of people who actually watched the entire fight, and in some cases even went up next only to then gank me afterwards. Ran into some good natured roamers yesterday, so hopefully your PvE players don’t like to get on much on the weekdays.
SF is a PvE server who has a kick-kitten WvW core group.
I have to quote this to help you and your server mates understand something really important. You are in Bronze League, no you don’t. This the t-ball of leagues. If you want to say you have a great PvE community, cool, I can buy that, but a kick-anything WvW core, you are delusional.
As far as all these recruitment messages, no one is going to transfer mid match up when their rewards are tied to the server the were on the day leagues started. Posting recruitment in this thread makes your server look sad and desperate.
Good fight with SF by SW tower KBL. [MvM] was the guild leading SF I believe, at least that was the guild tag of the Guard with the ghost tonic. You guys kept coming back like there was no tomorrow too. We need some more of those fights!! Good stuff
haha … we want just fight, no matter what
By the way, some guild of Kn or AR want GvG 15vs 15 this Thursday?
My story
I have a question. I know betting stomped sucks, and I know being the stomper can be fun. Also, rubbing it in can be fun for some people. However, do you make posts like this when you aren’t the team on top? It’s just bad form. It is just a game, and we are all trying to play this for fun. Therefore, why troll the losing team? There is a time where every one of us will be the team on bottom, so you should be both gracious in victory and defeat.
I actually have a question for you. Are you actively ignoring all the inflammatory/trolling/insulting posts your servermates is making towards us?
If you will take the time to reread this thread, or even just this page you will see i dont start making posts like i did unless provoked. So maybe you should direct your attention to the other posters from your server first, thanks.
(edited by clint.5681)
Let me tell you a story of a waterpark I have built and how you have helped me.
Years ago I, with the help of two business partners began work on an amazing water park. There were some oversights that happened during the construction, cuz you know kitten happens. Near the end of construction my two partners came up to me and asked
“Where are we gonna get the water to fill this park?”.I thought “Oh my gawd I never thought about where the water would come from”.
So I told them I would indeed find a way like always. I told them like everything else, the internet will always have the answer. So fast forward to today, my extensive search for a source of water has lead me to the vast amount of tears you and others keep splashing on threads such as these. With advances in todays technology i will be able to extract the seemingly infinite amount of tears and use it to power my waterpark.
Thanks again buds, your friend Clinton.
Tl;Dr Your tears power me.
I have a question. I know betting stomped sucks, and I know being the stomper can be fun. Also, rubbing it in can be fun for some people. However, do you make posts like this when you aren’t the team on top? It’s just bad form. It is just a game, and we are all trying to play this for fun. Therefore, why troll the losing team? There is a time where every one of us will be the team on bottom, so you should be both gracious in victory and defeat.
I actually have a question for you. Are you actively ignoring all the inflammatory/trolling/insulting posts your servermates and KN is making towards us?
If you will take the time to reread this thread, or even just this page you will see i dont start making posts like i did unless provoked. So maybe you should direct your attention to the other posters from your server first, thanks.
Why respond in kind? I have not trolled, are you are doing is feeding those who do. You sink to their level and reflect badly upon your server by doing so. Keep the people trolling as a minority. Show others that the general population is above such behaviour.
EDIT: Remember, this is a game. Lets all have fun no matter the WvW situation!
Let me tell you a story of a waterpark I have built and how you have helped me.
Years ago I, with the help of two business partners began work on an amazing water park. There were some oversights that happened during the construction, cuz you know kitten happens. Near the end of construction my two partners came up to me and asked
“Where are we gonna get the water to fill this park?”.I thought “Oh my gawd I never thought about where the water would come from”.
So I told them I would indeed find a way like always. I told them like everything else, the internet will always have the answer. So fast forward to today, my extensive search for a source of water has lead me to the vast amount of tears you and others keep splashing on threads such as these. With advances in todays technology i will be able to extract the seemingly infinite amount of tears and use it to power my waterpark.
Thanks again buds, your friend Clinton.
Tl;Dr Your tears power me.
I have a question. I know betting stomped sucks, and I know being the stomper can be fun. Also, rubbing it in can be fun for some people. However, do you make posts like this when you aren’t the team on top? It’s just bad form. It is just a game, and we are all trying to play this for fun. Therefore, why troll the losing team? There is a time where every one of us will be the team on bottom, so you should be both gracious in victory and defeat.
I actually have a question for you. Are you actively ignoring all the inflammatory/trolling/insulting posts your servermates and KN is making towards us?
If you will take the time to reread this thread, or even just this page you will see i dont start making posts like i did unless provoked. So maybe you should direct your attention to the other posters from your server first, thanks.
Why respond in kind? I have not trolled, are you are doing is feeding those who do. You sink to their level and reflect badly upon your server by doing so. Keep the people trolling as a minority. Show others that the general population is above such behaviour.
So you should be directing your attention to those on your server that are in your own words " reflect badly upon your server". You have individuals that are confused in this thread putting down bronze servers while playing on bronze servers. I dont represent my server, I represent me on these forums. I dont think there is a single person on SF outside of my legion of fans that think I represent SF in any capacity.
Yes I know how it feels to be stomped in match ups, its part of the reason why we are stuck being Blue for 6 out of the 7 weeks of these leagues. .
Let me tell you a story of a waterpark I have built and how you have helped me.
Years ago I, with the help of two business partners began work on an amazing water park. There were some oversights that happened during the construction, cuz you know kitten happens. Near the end of construction my two partners came up to me and asked
“Where are we gonna get the water to fill this park?”.I thought “Oh my gawd I never thought about where the water would come from”.
So I told them I would indeed find a way like always. I told them like everything else, the internet will always have the answer. So fast forward to today, my extensive search for a source of water has lead me to the vast amount of tears you and others keep splashing on threads such as these. With advances in todays technology i will be able to extract the seemingly infinite amount of tears and use it to power my waterpark.
Thanks again buds, your friend Clinton.
Tl;Dr Your tears power me.
I have a question. I know betting stomped sucks, and I know being the stomper can be fun. Also, rubbing it in can be fun for some people. However, do you make posts like this when you aren’t the team on top? It’s just bad form. It is just a game, and we are all trying to play this for fun. Therefore, why troll the losing team? There is a time where every one of us will be the team on bottom, so you should be both gracious in victory and defeat.
I actually have a question for you. Are you actively ignoring all the inflammatory/trolling/insulting posts your servermates and KN is making towards us?
If you will take the time to reread this thread, or even just this page you will see i dont start making posts like i did unless provoked. So maybe you should direct your attention to the other posters from your server first, thanks.
Why respond in kind? I have not trolled, are you are doing is feeding those who do. You sink to their level and reflect badly upon your server by doing so. Keep the people trolling as a minority. Show others that the general population is above such behaviour.
So you should be directing your attention to those on your server that are in your own words " reflect badly upon your server". You have individuals that are confused in this thread putting down bronze servers while playing on bronze servers. I dont represent my server, I represent me on these forums. I dont think there is a single person on SF outside of my legion of fans that think I represent SF in any capacity.
Yes I know how it feels to be stomped in match ups, its part of the reason why we are stuck being Blue for 6 out of the 7 weeks of these leagues. .
If you represent yourself then I feel sorry for you that you feel you need to troll like that. We are last place, I know, we speak from experience about bronze life. We do not say we are better. However, at least we don’t troll. If you feel the need to, the best thing to do is not post at all. An outside observer you see this thread and think all 3 servers were full of trash talkers. It’s sad that this is our public face. Lets just play the game as designed.
again, some guild of Kn or AR want GvG 15vs 15 this Thursday?
Mariticide.1970
I feel like you have misread what ive said or maybe I lacked clarity. I am not representing myself as a person on this video game forum. When i said “i represent me on these forums” i mean i represent my forum account and thats it.
Im not sure what the “we dont troll” part of your post is supposed to mean, seeing as you have had people from your server actively trolling since the first page of this thread. Im not sure if that was directed at me or was supposed to be some kind of general statement so ill leave that up to your to clarify.
Anyone who has played MMOs/video games and come to the forums should be experienced and intelligent enough to realize the people posting do not represent the game. That also applies to GW2 and these matchup threads. Most are similar to ours and next week that will still be the case. If person has made it this far into the forums and is naive enough to think that a poster or two represents a whole population of people playing this video game then thats on them. Im sure thats not the only problems in their life they need to deal with.
Last and not least i expect you to be replying to people from your server from now and telling them how bad they are making making AR look, otherwise you would seem a little biased dont you think?
(edited by clint.5681)
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