Guild Wars 2

It has been a good run. Thank you ANet for hosting this sub-furom.

See yall at

http://www.gw2wvw.net

I’m totally okay with this site already… Hopefully everyone goes to the same place

Seems like the most logical place. The flaming/trolling/boasting/complaining/crying/hackusations/etc will go on! ..But this time, with avatars!

Seconded. I am now thoroughly convinced that we need to move where there is no prattling on about carebear etiquette in a PvP section where rivalry keeps things interesting. I also like the idea of seeing all the chesthumpers with their avatar of choice so I can keep a visual image when I kill them in-game and chesthump in my own head.

Wanted to present another option with a community moderated (vs moderator), http://www.gw2wvw.net. Wasn’t going to say too much about it till the 1st, but it seems that there’s plenty of threads being locked already.

Essentially it’s currently designed for removing low ranked comments after a decent number of votes automatically. That can adjust up or down based on actual usage and if there’s any problems. Otherwise it is unmodded outside of making sure that threads aren’t spammed on there that aren’t GW2 related.

If you’d like to give it a try I’d appreciate it, and certainly can modify it in any way that the community deems useful (like a completely unmoderated forum or useful links). There is and will never be a fee charged for the site and at most I will have one non-pop up banner to simply pay for the domain cost.

Won’t be moving there. Want less moderation.

bokkieskitten.8023:

Won’t be moving there. Want less moderation.

Are those forums moderated as well?

Fuzzion.2504:

bokkieskitten.8023:

Won’t be moving there. Want less moderation.

Are those forums moderated as well?

They were pretty heavily moderated in the past. In some ways moreso than these forums. They don’t like movie threads at all. Those got locked. Anything negative towards certain “celebrity” guilds were removed.

That is part of the reason why it is dead today.

I left Guru because of the mods there. Jumping out the frying pan into the fire.

oh wow. So theres no established forum for WvW matchups then?

We have 9 to 10 days left so we have to make a decision quick.

gw2guru is worsed side ever – its so full with whiners you cant read any normal thread there its all about how bad the patch is or how arenanet trie to lose there players and crap like this – even moderators whine all day

thats no community anyone wanna be part from

Answer: Josh “grouch” Davis is a GW2Guru employee whom now works for ArenaNet.

Virtute.8251:

Answer: Josh “grouch” Davis is a GW2Guru employee whom now works for ArenaNet.

So ANET hired Josh. Josh convinced them to axe the matchup forums expecting everyone to go to gw2guru. Josh gets big kickback. ANET still controls our forum posting through gw2guru.

All makes sense now…

In watching the other threads I see three options proposed at this point

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/

http://www.gw2wvw.net

and I can’t find the post anymore but someone had made a subreddit for matchups. http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/

Please list any others you know have been proposed so everyone at least knows the options

Just make an IRC channel that you all sit in while you play. Then you can enjoy each other’s company in real-time.

CrimsonProject.7980:

Seconded. I am now thoroughly convinced that we need to move where there is no prattling on about carebear etiquette in a PvP section where rivalry keeps things interesting. I also like the idea of seeing all the chesthumpers with their avatar of choice so I can keep a visual image when I kill them in-game and chesthump in my own head.

if only it was rivalry.Usually the posts are just a choatic mess of qqers saying the same thing each and every match up..WIth pretend to be posts,saying things that never happend,making up stories about how they “outmanouvered” people strategically…eventhough it was just pure and simple running away…Its the same useless,crap and lies every time " Ohhh we made a map green in the middle of the night at 5:30 vs no resistance look how awesome we are" boasting crap every time.And other then thats its complaining about zerging and being outnumbered “because if we werent we would have won easily, Because were so much better then you are”….and yada yada yada …Zzz.

Caedmon.6798:

CrimsonProject.7980:

Seconded. I am now thoroughly convinced that we need to move where there is no prattling on about carebear etiquette in a PvP section where rivalry keeps things interesting. I also like the idea of seeing all the chesthumpers with their avatar of choice so I can keep a visual image when I kill them in-game and chesthump in my own head.

if only it was rivalry.Usually the posts are just a choatic mess of qqers saying the same thing each and every match up..WIth pretend to be posts,saying things that never happend,making up stories about how they “outmanouvered” people strategically…eventhough it was just pure and simple running away…Its the same useless,crap and lies every time " Ohhh we made a map green in the middle of the night at 5:30 vs no resistance look how awesome we are" boasting crap every time.And other then thats its complaining about zerging and being outnumbered “because if we werent we would have won easily, Because were so much better then you are”….and yada yada yada …Zzz.

The key to remember is that having a place for people who enjoy telling each other boastful lies in an ongoing attempt to just get a rise out of each other means that they’ll be at that place, and not the place that we are. It’s win/win.

It theoretically could be this sub-forum, but the Code of Conduct in place here ruins that potential.

I’d say http://www.gw2wvw.net is the best option. I enjoy reddit but I have banned myself from going to that website as somehow 5 hours of my day disappears every time I visit. It is almost as bad as tvtropes.

What say you community-at-large?

Avatar of Belle.9623:

I’d say http://www.gw2wvw.net is the best option. I enjoy reddit but I have banned myself from going to that website as somehow 5 hours of my day disappears every time I visit. It is almost as bad as tvtropes.

What say you community-at-large?

Down-vote moderation can be trolled hard, so I hesitant to use that one.

Do we have someone from GW2guru who we could talk to about meeting the specific needs of this community?

I think the only way appease everyone is a two forum system. One forum with moderation, and one without any moderation. People can then choose which thread they want to be a part of. Additionally, inappropriate posts in the moderated forums can just be dumped into the unmoderated one. Trolls in the moderated forum would be “banned” only from the moderated forum, and could still troll their hearts out in the unmoderated forum.

If someone can get ^this^ to work, then I would hope that both the “trolls” and “care bares” would be ok with it.

i will post the options above

titanlectro.5029:

Avatar of Belle.9623:

I’d say http://www.gw2wvw.net is the best option. I enjoy reddit but I have banned myself from going to that website as somehow 5 hours of my day disappears every time I visit. It is almost as bad as tvtropes.

What say you community-at-large?

Down-vote moderation can be trolled hard, so I hesitant to use that one.

Do we have someone from GW2guru who we could talk to about meeting the specific needs of this community?

I think the only way appease everyone is a two forum system. One forum with moderation, and one without any moderation. People can then choose which thread they want to be a part of. Additionally, inappropriate posts in the moderated forums can just be dumped into the unmoderated one. Trolls in the moderated forum would be “banned” only from the moderated forum, and could still troll their hearts out in the unmoderated forum.

If someone can get ^this^ to work, then I would hope that both the “trolls” and “care bares” would be ok with it.

As far as downvote moderation, the delete rules related to the magnitude of the votes as quantity of votes can be easily modified to match what is needed. Can easily be started with a threshold of 10 votes averaging less than 2 stars.

As far as having forum moderation, the hardest part will be to find a set of people derived from this community which tends to get a tad hot at times, to be fair above all else. And to be actively reading thread after thread (or getting their email spammed with reported posts as they come in). Having been in that role before, being unbiased 100% of the time is hard (and the first time you slip up you’re roasted forever), and the burden on moderating highly populated forums is a pain too. I do not envy those people who choose to do that task.

Gw2wvw.net seems like the place for the fact that the administrator has publicly stated his willingness and desire to work with the WvW community in making the space the best it can be for its purpose.

I’d happily donate funds to a new forum which has no moderation at all except to remove spam bots. I am from 4chan. This is highly possible. Infact, I believe if our GW2 forum mods even read /b/ theyd realise what a waste of time this all is.

Anyone else wish to put their neck on the line and fund a little project? I’d honestly be willing to put money into this for the simple fact that it’ll annoy the dudes boss who decided to shutdown our subforum instead of taking the money himself. A server and URL is something along the lines of £100 a year and if we can get one of the many many site designers to help us from the community we can cut costs there.

Proposed URL: www.blackjackandhookers.com

At least Anet had standards the Mods had to follow. With fansite forums, players themselves do the moderating. So if a fansite Mod had grudge against, say Black Gate, he could restrict them all.

Added a bit of additional code to delay vote evaluation by an hour. So comments will live an hour at a minimum to allow for ‘saving’ votes by other forum members to help prevent comment moderation should ‘downvote abuse’ be occurring.

That said, also changed the comment moderation from ‘delete’ to unpublish. That allows the comment to be retained and reposted. Right now I don’t intend on anyone else being asked to review unpublished comments… as we haven’t even chosen which site to use.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

At least Anet had standards the Mods had to follow. With fansite forums, players themselves do the moderating. So if a fansite Mod had grudge against, say Black Gate, he could restrict them all.

Yes because ANET had no biases….

Jaxs.5830:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

At least Anet had standards the Mods had to follow. With fansite forums, players themselves do the moderating. So if a fansite Mod had grudge against, say Black Gate, he could restrict them all.

Yes because ANET had no biases….

Prove they have biases, if you would. When you don’t, I’ll be over here, watching you not prove anything.

Also, nice bias.

titanlectro.5029:

Down-vote moderation can be trolled hard, so I hesitant to use that one.

What about a system like orrmaps.com where anyone can moderate — and the user has a preference of moderators:

for example, you go into the NSP-IoJ-CD thread and there’s a pulldown list of volunteer moderators — JaneDoe and JohnDoe, for example .. if you choose JaneDoe from the list, then you see only the posts that JaneDoe hasn’t ticked as “blocked.”

Cogbyrn.7283:

Jaxs.5830:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

At least Anet had standards the Mods had to follow. With fansite forums, players themselves do the moderating. So if a fansite Mod had grudge against, say Black Gate, he could restrict them all.

Yes because ANET had no biases….

Prove they have biases, if you would. When you don’t, I’ll be over here, watching you not prove anything.

Also, nice bias.

Post a constructive post on the moderation system and how it could be changed for the better and then count how long it takes for it to be removed.

Also, thank you for stalking me, it makes me feel warm and cuddly inside.

Vyx.8607:

Added a bit of additional code to delay vote evaluation by an hour. So comments will live an hour at a minimum to allow for ‘saving’ votes by other forum members to help prevent comment moderation should ‘downvote abuse’ be occurring.

That said, also changed the comment moderation from ‘delete’ to unpublish. That allows the comment to be retained and reposted. Right now I don’t intend on anyone else being asked to review unpublished comments… as we haven’t even chosen which site to use.

Is there a way to make it so that the down votes or stars or however they are calculated like a spam filter that we can control in our personal settings? So say I am fine seeing all posts even if they were down voted 20 times, I would still see them all. If I were a sensitive snowflake like Coghbyrn, then I could set it for 2 down votes and stop seeing the posts once they reach that point.

Couple this with the ability to ignore a poster entirely and it is all the moderation I would need.

Lord Kuru.3685:

titanlectro.5029:

Down-vote moderation can be trolled hard, so I hesitant to use that one.

What about a system like orrmaps.com where anyone can moderate — and the user has a preference of moderators:

for example, you go into the NSP-IoJ-CD thread and there’s a pulldown list of volunteer moderators — JaneDoe and JohnDoe, for example .. if you choose JaneDoe from the list, then you see only the posts that JaneDoe hasn’t ticked as “blocked.”

This is a good idea as well.

Jaxs.5830:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Jaxs.5830:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

At least Anet had standards the Mods had to follow. With fansite forums, players themselves do the moderating. So if a fansite Mod had grudge against, say Black Gate, he could restrict them all.

Yes because ANET had no biases….

Prove they have biases, if you would. When you don’t, I’ll be over here, watching you not prove anything.

Also, nice bias.

Post a constructive post on the moderation system and how it could be changed for the better and then count how long it takes for it to be removed.

Also, thank you for stalking me, it makes me feel warm and cuddly inside.

Your sense of self-importance could be a classroom example. I didn’t even look at the name, I just saw an unjustified post that remains unjustified. Those are my favorite.

Note: the vast majority of the time I’ve seen people say their post was “constructive”, it means their post was rage-y and demeaning and they’re using the removal as a justification to get even more rage-y and biased. That, or their post broke the Code of Conduct in their attempt to be constructive, and they refuse to think themselves as subject to the rules in someone else’s home (this is ANet’s, if you were wondering).

Perhaps you can climb the corporate ladder at a game development company, gain a managerial position in their community relations department, then set the moderation standards for their forum.

titanlectro.5029:

Avatar of Belle.9623:

I’d say http://www.gw2wvw.net is the best option. I enjoy reddit but I have banned myself from going to that website as somehow 5 hours of my day disappears every time I visit. It is almost as bad as tvtropes.

What say you community-at-large?

Down-vote moderation can be trolled hard, so I hesitant to use that one.

Do we have someone from GW2guru who we could talk to about meeting the specific needs of this community?

I think the only way appease everyone is a two forum system. One forum with moderation, and one without any moderation. People can then choose which thread they want to be a part of. Additionally, inappropriate posts in the moderated forums can just be dumped into the unmoderated one. Trolls in the moderated forum would be “banned” only from the moderated forum, and could still troll their hearts out in the unmoderated forum.

If someone can get ^this^ to work, then I would hope that both the “trolls” and “care bares” would be ok with it.

Yeah, we just need a ‘smacktalk’ forum where any kind of insults related to the game are allowed, but anything that goes too personal is moderated.

Oozo.7856:

but anything that goes too personal is moderated.

Therein lies the rub

LetoII.3782:

Oozo.7856:

but anything that goes too personal is moderated.

Therein lies the rub

That’s exactly what the bard would tell us, and I almost posted a very similar thing.

Isn’t any moderation carebear-style forums? Aren’t personal threats/boasts how real PvPers come and brag?

Don’t you think that if people generally kept their bravado to the game and less about the people, this sub-forum would have stayed open?

Either way, here’s another suggestion: any match-up threads should auto-format all posts to all caps.

Cogbyrn.7283:

LetoII.3782:

Oozo.7856:

but anything that goes too personal is moderated.

Therein lies the rub

That’s exactly what the bard would tell us, and I almost posted a very similar thing.

Isn’t any moderation carebear-style forums? Aren’t personal threats/boasts how real PvPers come and brag?

Don’t you think that if people generally kept their bravado to the game and less about the people, this sub-forum would have stayed open?

Either way, here’s another suggestion: any match-up threads should auto-format all posts to all caps.

I’m talking about things like someone hunting down your RL personal information and posting about it. I’m not talking about someone calling you a moron on a forum.

And no, real PvPers don’t threaten to kill your wife and kids.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Aren’t personal threats/boasts how real PvPers come and brag?

Well there are two potential answers to this question:

1) No, there are a lot of PvPers who find personal threats to be bad form.
2) Yes, but there are swarms of non-PvPers who also play WvW.

No matter how you define “real PvPer” there will still be a need for moderated forums.

Which brings us back to my point:

We need two sections to the WvW forum, one moderated “carebear” section and one unmoderated “troll” section.

Why?

Because otherwise we will just keep going with this pointless debate, each person championing their own cause. Some will shout “down with the carebears” and others will shout back “down with the trolls.” Lets just make a place where you can choose one or the other, and be done with this pointless debate.

You cannot make a one-size-fits-all system, because we are not all the same size. Let people sort themselves out.

Whoever can do this has my vote.

The moderated forum leads to a question that must be answered – Who do you trust to moderate fairly from within this community?

I can build a moderated forum easily, but I can’t say I trust anyone to moderate it fairly. At some point I trust ‘the wisdom of crowds’ more than any individual moderator.

Jaxs.5830:

Virtute.8251:

Answer: Josh “grouch” Davis is a GW2Guru employee whom now works for ArenaNet.

So ANET hired Josh. Josh convinced them to axe the matchup forums expecting everyone to go to gw2guru. Josh gets big kickback. ANET still controls our forum posting through gw2guru.

All makes sense now…

Lol this had me laughing. It’s a conspiracy!!!

@titanlectro: To be fair, I think your idea is the best. There’s no one-size-fits-all for a community like this, so having both ideas implemented probably will work best.

However, as Oozo mentions, you still most likely need some moderation in the “troll” forum to insure there aren’t any actual personal threats/information posted.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Oozo.7856:

Cogbyrn.7283:

LetoII.3782:

Oozo.7856:

but anything that goes too personal is moderated.

Therein lies the rub

That’s exactly what the bard would tell us, and I almost posted a very similar thing.

Isn’t any moderation carebear-style forums? Aren’t personal threats/boasts how real PvPers come and brag?

Don’t you think that if people generally kept their bravado to the game and less about the people, this sub-forum would have stayed open?

Either way, here’s another suggestion: any match-up threads should auto-format all posts to all caps.

I’m talking about things like someone hunting down your RL personal information and posting about it. I’m not talking about someone calling you a moron on a forum.

And no, real PvPers don’t threaten to kill your wife and kids.

The key is exactly where the line is drawn, not using two extremes as examples. That’s the rub.

So you can’t post any actually personal information, and you can’t make threats to a person. But you can call them names and insult them to your heart’s content, as long as those insults don’t mention anything RL about the person.

You might want to write those rules down, so no one complains about moderation later. You can put them in some sort of document, let’s say, a “Code of Conduct”, so people know what is and isn’t appropriate. That’ll insure they don’t complain, since it’ll be written down for them to read whenever they want.

How about this? You stay here and other people who can easily distinguish between things which are serious and things which are not serious can go somewhere else.

Vyx.8607:

The moderated forum leads to a question that must be answered – Who do you trust to moderate fairly from within this community?

I can build a moderated forum easily, but I can’t say I trust anyone to moderate it fairly. At some point I trust ‘the wisdom of crowds’ more than any individual moderator.

Perhaps we can do both? Let the crowd vote on the moderators.

I’m just afraid about a downvoting system, because it is not hard to get an entire guild to downvote a rival. Or worse, one person could do it with proxies or TOR.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@titanlectro: To be fair, I think your idea is the best. There’s no one-size-fits-all for a community like this, so having both ideas implemented probably will work best.

However, as Oozo mentions, you still most likely need some moderation in the “troll” forum to insure there aren’t any actual personal threats/information posted.

That is a good point. The “troll” forum will need some moderation. Perhaps the limit should be “no RL threats.”

titanlectro.5029:

Perhaps we can do both? Let the crowd vote on the moderators.

I’m just afraid about a downvoting system, because it is not hard to get an entire guild to downvote a rival. Or worse, one person could do it with proxies or TOR.

That’s REALLY when you’ll get entire guilds to get their ‘leader’ or ‘advocate’ into the moderation system. As far as proxy/TOR voting, anonymous voting is disabled, there must be an active account tied to a unique email account. They can make a bazillion email accounts, but it’ll be quite a pain in the butt. And because the spam bots will soon come, there will be a captcha system for registration once the initial wave of registrations completes.

Vyx.8607:

The moderated forum leads to a question that must be answered – Who do you trust to moderate fairly from within this community?

I can build a moderated forum easily, but I can’t say I trust anyone to moderate it fairly. At some point I trust ‘the wisdom of crowds’ more than any individual moderator.

I like the look of your forum, but relying on mob rule is not a good idea. :P

Whenever there is a dispute the side with more numbers will drown the other side out. And, then they will continue to downvote certain posters about things not even related to them.

Don’t underestimate how much people suck.

Oozo.7856:

How about this? You stay here and other people who can easily distinguish between things which are serious and things which are not serious can go somewhere else.

Sounds like a good plan to me. I probably wouldn’t get along with folks who can’t handle a few questions about the details of their process. Also, you’re probably correct in that it’s safe to assume that everyone knows the difference between right/wrong, or serious/not serious.

EDIT – You can’t possibly be serious in holding faith that people understand appropriate behavior, then telling someone else not to underestimate how much people suck. You’re killing my robot brain.

I do have tools in place to watch the ‘mass voters’. At this point I would like to try to give the system a shot and simply see what happens then adjust from there. My ‘saving grace’ is that there is nothing that up/downvotes do to the system that is permanent. Everything that is hidden can be made visible again.

Also i’ve been a pvp raid leader and hosted pvp forums in LOTRO for 5 years, I do know how much people suck at times. We PvP’rs are a passionate lot.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Oozo.7856:

How about this? You stay here and other people who can easily distinguish between things which are serious and things which are not serious can go somewhere else.

Sounds like a good plan to me. I probably wouldn’t get along with folks who can’t handle a few questions about the details of their process. Also, you’re probably correct in that it’s safe to assume that everyone knows the difference between right/wrong, or serious/not serious.

EDIT – You can’t possibly be serious in holding faith that people understand appropriate behavior, then telling someone else not to underestimate how much people suck. You’re killing my robot brain.

Pretty sure that someone who posts personal info and threats knows that what they are doing is wrong. And, if they don’t then they are an antisocial psycopath who should be shunned by the community anyway. There is a difference between knowing what is right and wrong, and deciding to do something anyway when you know it’s wrong (those would be the people that suck that I was referring to).

Is it really that hard to understand?