Guild Wars 2

Hi. My name is Jack, and I play a Mesmer with Runes of the Centaur.

Wait, this isn’t group therapy for Slow Mesmers? Oh. Sorry. Wrong thread.

kurtosis.9526:

Somebody needs to organize an actual race and settle this once and for all. Say two races – one on a road where combat slows won’t be a problem, and one where they will:

This needs to happen. Maybe on TC since they are heavy PvE’rs who are up for this sort of thing. People can always guest over… maybe arrange some prizes. A sprint, distance race and heck throw in a relay just for the fun of it.

I know it wouldn’t settle the debate for catching someone in WvW since a lot of race builds wouldn’t be WvW effective, but still would be nice to see what is possible.

Out of combat:
Warrior (Greatsword/ Sword + Warhorn)
Thief
Ranger
Guardian =Engineer
Elementalist (Dual Dagger) = Mesmer
Necro

In Combat:
Thief
Mesmer
Ranger
Elementalist = Guardian = Engineer
Necro

bobross.5034:

@archon-
I totally agree about the sprint thing…I don’t play warrior, so I’ve got no personal experience to draw on.

I’m currently playing a condi-tank build that has very high mobility and initiative regen.

the thing is, I am limited by initiative, but I dont just have to wait for it. I get cooldowns too and they help a lot.

First I get 1 initiative every second
an extra 3 initiative every 10 seconds (trait and infil-signet)
5 initiative from steal every 21 seconds (and a short speed boost in stealth)
2 initiative from my heal every 30 seconds
So in a minute I’m getting 60 + 18 + 15 + 4 initiative = 97 initiative
so thats about 16 infiltrator arrows in a minute or 1 every 4 seconds (which ignores the 2.5 free ones you get at the beginning for starting with full initiative).
this is in addition to 3 × 1.5k steals in a minute (in a distance wvw run, you can probably expect at least two of them to be profitable distance wise, maybe giving you an extra 1k distance each.

This is all in addition to perma-swiftness and occasional bursts of speed in stealth.
I also left out infiltrator signet-because I counted its initiative regen instead, so we’re assuming no activations.

Sure but this is one of those theoretical builds the OP was talking about that has no real combat viability.

Sounds like 0/0/20/20/30

Even then you specced for ini regen over actual survivability in shadow arts and acrobatics, and the same for the trickery line.

In my experience warriors and thieves are the same speed in cross map travel

Warrior and Thief are really close, but the warriors travel rotation is SO much easier to carry out at a high efficiency compared to the Thieves, so I would say the answer is Warrior. However if the runner has the perfect conditions and executes perfectly I bet the Thief would win, but the slightest mistake will lead to combat speed and a big time loss.

In-combat Engineers might have an easier time if carrying Slick Shoes AND Rocket Boots combined to that perma-swiftness.

@archon, actually I play that build…the damage comes from condition damage, caltrops and death blossom spam. It does pretty well in duels, zerg battles and small groups. The survivability comes from frequent stealth/tps and evades. Not saying its the strongest build, but it is very mobile, and fun.

@gaspara-you’re right, the thief mobility has less margin for error because you need to select targets, ground target, and sometimes turn around quickly to do those back-leaps.

Archon.6481:

bobross.5034:

@archon-
I totally agree about the sprint thing…I don’t play warrior, so I’ve got no personal experience to draw on.

I’m currently playing a condi-tank build that has very high mobility and initiative regen.

the thing is, I am limited by initiative, but I dont just have to wait for it. I get cooldowns too and they help a lot.

First I get 1 initiative every second
an extra 3 initiative every 10 seconds (trait and infil-signet)
5 initiative from steal every 21 seconds (and a short speed boost in stealth)
2 initiative from my heal every 30 seconds
So in a minute I’m getting 60 + 18 + 15 + 4 initiative = 97 initiative
so thats about 16 infiltrator arrows in a minute or 1 every 4 seconds (which ignores the 2.5 free ones you get at the beginning for starting with full initiative).
this is in addition to 3 × 1.5k steals in a minute (in a distance wvw run, you can probably expect at least two of them to be profitable distance wise, maybe giving you an extra 1k distance each.

This is all in addition to perma-swiftness and occasional bursts of speed in stealth.
I also left out infiltrator signet-because I counted its initiative regen instead, so we’re assuming no activations.

Sure but this is one of those theoretical builds the OP was talking about that has no real combat viability.

Sounds like 0/0/20/20/30

Even then you specced for ini regen over actual survivability in shadow arts and acrobatics, and the same for the trickery line.

I think it’s pretty difficult to label a build as having “no real combat viability.” Not to mention, isn’t building for mobility the same as building for survivability with a thief? If you can use Infiltrator’s Arrow alone every 4 seconds then you’re basically uncatchable and/or untouchable due to constantly blinding your opponent. That seems like a great combat advantage to me.

Archon.6481:

bobross.5034:

@archon-
I totally agree about the sprint thing…I don’t play warrior, so I’ve got no personal experience to draw on.

I’m currently playing a condi-tank build that has very high mobility and initiative regen.

the thing is, I am limited by initiative, but I dont just have to wait for it. I get cooldowns too and they help a lot.

First I get 1 initiative every second
an extra 3 initiative every 10 seconds (trait and infil-signet)
5 initiative from steal every 21 seconds (and a short speed boost in stealth)
2 initiative from my heal every 30 seconds
So in a minute I’m getting 60 + 18 + 15 + 4 initiative = 97 initiative
so thats about 16 infiltrator arrows in a minute or 1 every 4 seconds (which ignores the 2.5 free ones you get at the beginning for starting with full initiative).
this is in addition to 3 × 1.5k steals in a minute (in a distance wvw run, you can probably expect at least two of them to be profitable distance wise, maybe giving you an extra 1k distance each.

This is all in addition to perma-swiftness and occasional bursts of speed in stealth.
I also left out infiltrator signet-because I counted its initiative regen instead, so we’re assuming no activations.

Sure but this is one of those theoretical builds the OP was talking about that has no real combat viability.

Sounds like 0/0/20/20/30

Even then you specced for ini regen over actual survivability in shadow arts and acrobatics, and the same for the trickery line.

Or lose the extra steal stuff and its a simple utility swap on d/p

I spend most of my time using Thief (wvw) and Warrior (farming), and my thief always FEELS faster. So, I decided to put some semblance of science behind it and recorded the results.

I chose Caer Shadowfain to Jofast’s Camp as my route and did three runs with each character. The fastest runs were matched head-to-head.

Thief (shortbow + centaur runes)
Skills used: Infiltrator’s Arrow, Withdraw, Shadowstep, Roll for Initiative, and (accidentally) Infiltrator’s Signet
Notable Traits used: Signet Use, Expeditious Dodger, Feline Grace, Quick Recovery, Preparedness, Hastened Replenishment

Warrior (greatsword + sword/warhorn)
Skills used: Whirlwind Attack, Rush, Savage Leap, Charge, Bull’s Charge, Signet of Rage
Notable Traits used: Forceful Greatsword, Quick Breathing, Fast Hands, Signet Mastery

It should be noted that I never use a shortbow on my thief, so my three runs were clunky at best. On the other hand, I use that that loadout on my warrior all the time and was very comfortable with the skill rotations.

Here ya go: http://youtu.be/E-vyzyMjCq0

Try Heartseeker its easier imho

joshisanonymous.5270:

Archon.6481:

bobross.5034:

@archon-
I totally agree about the sprint thing…I don’t play warrior, so I’ve got no personal experience to draw on.

I’m currently playing a condi-tank build that has very high mobility and initiative regen.

the thing is, I am limited by initiative, but I dont just have to wait for it. I get cooldowns too and they help a lot.

First I get 1 initiative every second
an extra 3 initiative every 10 seconds (trait and infil-signet)
5 initiative from steal every 21 seconds (and a short speed boost in stealth)
2 initiative from my heal every 30 seconds
So in a minute I’m getting 60 + 18 + 15 + 4 initiative = 97 initiative
so thats about 16 infiltrator arrows in a minute or 1 every 4 seconds (which ignores the 2.5 free ones you get at the beginning for starting with full initiative).
this is in addition to 3 × 1.5k steals in a minute (in a distance wvw run, you can probably expect at least two of them to be profitable distance wise, maybe giving you an extra 1k distance each.

This is all in addition to perma-swiftness and occasional bursts of speed in stealth.
I also left out infiltrator signet-because I counted its initiative regen instead, so we’re assuming no activations.

Sure but this is one of those theoretical builds the OP was talking about that has no real combat viability.

Sounds like 0/0/20/20/30

Even then you specced for ini regen over actual survivability in shadow arts and acrobatics, and the same for the trickery line.

I think it’s pretty difficult to label a build as having “no real combat viability.” Not to mention, isn’t building for mobility the same as building for survivability with a thief? If you can use Infiltrator’s Arrow alone every 4 seconds then you’re basically uncatchable and/or untouchable due to constantly blinding your opponent. That seems like a great combat advantage to me.

You’re overestimating how powerful Inf Arrow is. Don’t expect to kill Anthony if all you do is spam #5. Especially since you have 0 +damage traits.

bobross.5034:

@archon, actually I play that build…the damage comes from condition damage, caltrops and death blossom spam. It does pretty well in duels, zerg battles and small groups. The survivability comes from frequent stealth/tps and evades. Not saying its the strongest build, but it is very mobile, and fun.

And everyone knows that condi thief is a joke and will never beat a competent player worth their salt.

Warrior and Thief
Ele and Engineer come next

Nikkinella.8254:

Well if we’re talking purely out of combat running then yeah Guardian would be lower in that case.

Not so. Guardians can easily have perma-swiftness with boon duration runes+trait line (which many wvw support guardians use already for other reasons).

Signet of the Locust + Spectral Walk will average less. Necros can’t get perma-swiftness.

This thread got me thinking about permaswiftness on the thief. It appears, you can just about achieve it. Thought Id mention because I wasn’t sure it was possible.

Firstly, you can run 30 in trickery for a 30% reduction in steal recharge and take grandmaster sleight of hand or a total of 50% reduction in steal recharge down to 17.5 seconds for a steal. Run (adept) Thrill of the crime for 10 seconds of swiftness when you steal.

Second boon stacking. You can run runes of the centaur for 20% swiftness duration and 10s of swiftness when you use a heal skill (which actually doesn’t seem so bad if your running a bleed build – and if your good with direction change on withdraw you, its only 15s recharge). Then if that’s not doing it, you can take acrobatics trait line to get up to 30% boon duration or take food for 40%, all of which will get you over the 17.5s on steal recharge.

Not saying it would necessarily be an awesome build. But combined with 25% MS signet, 50% MS in stealth and shadow step I think it would be hard to “outrun” that build.

Thief if built right 1500 ,1200, 900, 600,900 shadowsteps and SOS

thief and warrior

Archon.6481:

joshisanonymous.5270:

Archon.6481:

bobross.5034:

@archon-
I totally agree about the sprint thing…I don’t play warrior, so I’ve got no personal experience to draw on.

I’m currently playing a condi-tank build that has very high mobility and initiative regen.

the thing is, I am limited by initiative, but I dont just have to wait for it. I get cooldowns too and they help a lot.

First I get 1 initiative every second
an extra 3 initiative every 10 seconds (trait and infil-signet)
5 initiative from steal every 21 seconds (and a short speed boost in stealth)
2 initiative from my heal every 30 seconds
So in a minute I’m getting 60 + 18 + 15 + 4 initiative = 97 initiative
so thats about 16 infiltrator arrows in a minute or 1 every 4 seconds (which ignores the 2.5 free ones you get at the beginning for starting with full initiative).
this is in addition to 3 × 1.5k steals in a minute (in a distance wvw run, you can probably expect at least two of them to be profitable distance wise, maybe giving you an extra 1k distance each.

This is all in addition to perma-swiftness and occasional bursts of speed in stealth.
I also left out infiltrator signet-because I counted its initiative regen instead, so we’re assuming no activations.

Sure but this is one of those theoretical builds the OP was talking about that has no real combat viability.

Sounds like 0/0/20/20/30

Even then you specced for ini regen over actual survivability in shadow arts and acrobatics, and the same for the trickery line.

I think it’s pretty difficult to label a build as having “no real combat viability.” Not to mention, isn’t building for mobility the same as building for survivability with a thief? If you can use Infiltrator’s Arrow alone every 4 seconds then you’re basically uncatchable and/or untouchable due to constantly blinding your opponent. That seems like a great combat advantage to me.

You’re overestimating how powerful Inf Arrow is. Don’t expect to kill Anthony if all you do is spam #5. Especially since you have 0 +damage traits.

Who said anything about killing people by spamming Infiltrator’s Arrow? I was talking about using all that mobility as defense. I didn’t say anything about where the damage would come from. And traits aren’t the end all be all of offensive capabilities. Your gear would give you your offensive abilities, which honestly could be full berserker with that kind of build. Or, you could rely on conditions as bobross seems to do.

Archon.6481:

bobross.5034:

@archon, actually I play that build…the damage comes from condition damage, caltrops and death blossom spam. It does pretty well in duels, zerg battles and small groups. The survivability comes from frequent stealth/tps and evades. Not saying its the strongest build, but it is very mobile, and fun.

And everyone knows that condi thief is a joke and will never beat a competent player worth their salt.

You’re just dodging the point. Your saying his build does not fit the rules for this test because it’s not viable for combat, we explain to you that it is and why, then you make claims about conditions not being as good as other forms of damage. Who cares? The point is they can, in fact, kill people and this build can, in fact, be used for combat.

GreyWraith.8394:

Nikkinella.8254:

Well if we’re talking purely out of combat running then yeah Guardian would be lower in that case.

Not so. Guardians can easily have perma-swiftness with boon duration runes+trait line (which many wvw support guardians use already for other reasons).

Signet of the Locust + Spectral Walk will average less. Necros can’t get perma-swiftness.

Spectral Walk + Warhorn + 20% boon duration + Spectral Mastery = Necro perma-swiftness. It’s probably easier to get 100% uptime with a Necro than a few other classes.

Perma-swiftness is attainable for pretty much all professions. Its not what makes a profession mobile and hard to catch or outrun.

Its the sheer amount of gapclosers/openers that make professions high mobility. Warriors dont outrun my Engineer because they have perma-swiftness, i have perma-swiftness aswell. No, they outrun me because they have 3 “charge” abilities they can use fairly often. (fact they are kitten near impossible to cripple/immobilize helps aswell)

Same thing with Thief. Perma-swiftness isnt the problem, its spammable Heartseeker that quickly opens the distance. Stealth makes this even worst because you dont even know at first where they go giving them a massive headstart to begin with.

Its not swiftness, its the “Greater then Swiftness” abilities.

As most have said – it comes down to thief and warrior. While it is technically possible for the thief to be the fastest it isn’t a great build they are running for WvW. Warrior on the other hand is generally taking skill sets that are extremely useful in WvW anyway – bulls rush, s/wh and gs, perma swiftness is easy to get too. The rotation is super easy as well and if the ground is uneven savage leap always works, inf arrow is tricky at best sometimes and the distance gain be poor if you aren’t perfect with it.

If you are running away from one of these two in WvW most likely it is the warrior you DON’T want to catch you, the thief has blown a lot of important skills/ini and warrior will most likely have leg specialist so you are proper kittened

Same is true if you are chasing someone – you probably want to be on the warrior, regardless of who is technically fastest across ground.

Thief and Warrior, with rangers and eles as a runner-ups