Guild Wars 2

Kvitoq.9154:

retaliation is based on power: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation

It would require around 2.7k power to do 400 damage. Of course having Might increases your power so that should be possible.

They were discussing confusion damage, not retaliation, which scales (badly) with confusion damage and so 400+ is not really possible post nerf.

Gahn.8150:

Get some toughness all you paper dpers

wassup bro

EFWinters.5421:

Terrahero.9358:

EFWinters.5421:

So…

• You know using Barrage will basically kill you if you fire it into a zerg.
• You still use Barrage, and promptly dies.

Sorry but I think this is working exactly as intended. Bad players die good players prevail.

Because facerubbing a gate, instagibbing people that AoE you due to Retal is the pinacle of skill. Amiright?

I never claimed it was the pinnacle of skill. But it sure as hell shows a lot more skill than AoE’ing that zerg even though you have died because of it thousands of times already.

Yeah, why would we need to have reasonable anti-zerg skills, or the ability to get those 8 Guardians/Eles off the rams at the gate?

We should just Melee in the Lord’s room like the pros do it.

lunyboy.8672:

EFWinters.5421:

Terrahero.9358:

EFWinters.5421:

So…

• You know using Barrage will basically kill you if you fire it into a zerg.
• You still use Barrage, and promptly dies.

Sorry but I think this is working exactly as intended. Bad players die good players prevail.

Because facerubbing a gate, instagibbing people that AoE you due to Retal is the pinacle of skill. Amiright?

I never claimed it was the pinnacle of skill. But it sure as hell shows a lot more skill than AoE’ing that zerg even though you have died because of it thousands of times already.

Yeah, why would we need to have reasonable anti-zerg skills, or the ability to get those 8 Guardians/Eles off the rams at the gate?

We should just Melee in the Lord’s room like the pros do it.

This is not a thread to get retal nerfed is it? I know you want to whine and complain but please do so in the appropriate thread.

The OP asked how he should deal with retaliation. The solution is simple.

Don’t AoE.

The solution is simple.. do the same with retaliation as they did with confusion.ie.make it useless.

iorlas.6721:

The solution is simple.. do the same with retaliation as they did with confusion.ie.make it useless.

Yup nerf everything and let’s play who got more numbers on auto attack!

Gahn.8150:

iorlas.6721:

The solution is simple.. do the same with retaliation as they did with confusion.ie.make it useless.

Yup nerf everything and let’s play who got more numbers on auto attack!

That’s already the case. Confusion was dealing with auto-attacks zergs, not retaliation.

Pryda.8257:

Gahn.8150:

iorlas.6721:

The solution is simple.. do the same with retaliation as they did with confusion.ie.make it useless.

Yup nerf everything and let’s play who got more numbers on auto attack!

That’s already the case. Confusion was dealing with auto-attacks zergs, not retaliation.

I guess you got my point :o

EFWinters.5421:

lunyboy.8672:

EFWinters.5421:

Terrahero.9358:

EFWinters.5421:

So…

• You know using Barrage will basically kill you if you fire it into a zerg.
• You still use Barrage, and promptly dies.

Sorry but I think this is working exactly as intended. Bad players die good players prevail.

Because facerubbing a gate, instagibbing people that AoE you due to Retal is the pinacle of skill. Amiright?

I never claimed it was the pinnacle of skill. But it sure as hell shows a lot more skill than AoE’ing that zerg even though you have died because of it thousands of times already.

Yeah, why would we need to have reasonable anti-zerg skills, or the ability to get those 8 Guardians/Eles off the rams at the gate?

We should just Melee in the Lord’s room like the pros do it.

This is not a thread to get retal nerfed is it? I know you want to whine and complain but please do so in the appropriate thread.

The OP asked how he should deal with retaliation. The solution is simple.

Don’t AoE.

Retaliation was supposed to be nerfed already, I just want it to be on every map, making it a bit easier to deal with people on rams blast finishing light fields for up to a minute of retaliation, each that hit for more than the skill I am using on them… which is frankly ridiculous, since there is no counter to it aside from…

Don’t attack… har har har.

And I gave the OP advice about it already, carry siege. Ballistae are particularly useful against retal buffed targets.

Confusion was way out of whack, it is still good.. Retal is only op vs a few skills of aoe so nerfing it across the board would be silly.

The current problem, that doesn’t seem to be getting addressed, is that the retaliation nerf that happened isn’t working on all maps.

Retaliation still does full damage on the borderland maps and this needs to be fixed. Fix this so retaliation works like ANet currently intends it to, and then we can start a healthy discussion about the pros/cons of retaliation.

Lyndis.2584:

There usually, just usually, just maybe, happens to be more than one guardian in a 40-50 man zerg.

Any maybe, just maybe, theres more then one guardian in your zerg as well?

Point being, especially in a megazerg, you shouldnt be having any issues right? Between your self heal, and regen being passed around by ele’s and guardians, you should be having such an issue if you don’t run glass and have some vit, unless you don’t, and if you don’t, then you may want to rethink your attack.

Run glass? Try attacking till you get to low health, and if your heal is still down, move to the back and dodge roll.

skinnyb.5920:

iCryptik.1496:

Protip: It’s not up 24/7. It’s up for 5-7 seconds max every 24 seconds with traited, and a few more seconds if they run greatswords.

Light fields + blast finishers.

C’mon, Al… I’m disappointed in you.

Thats assuming most guilds and players know how to properly use and stack blast finishers, and there are a lot that still don’t. >.>

Exosferatu.2961:

Retaliation is sometimes funny. . . You encounter a thief and tries assassinate you under 5 seconds. Then the thief realizes that the ground is slippery. . .

so he switches to his sword/dagger and. . .

Retaliation is basically an idiot test. If you’re dying to it…well, you get the idea.

Not really had much of an issue with retaliation since the nerf. It can still take a nice chunk out of my health at times, but nothing like it used to.

It’s a shame I can’t use Feedback on a blob and die in seconds anymore. That was always a giggle :-)

Oh an how to deal with it? Build an arrowcart instead!

Use a pet build with bleed conditions.
I hate fighting pets and guardians fail vs conditions.

Retaliation is just obvious. Don’t use a longbow is massive barrage is the simple answer.
No ones forcing you to attack everyone at once :k

Drakh.3128:

Better yet, try being a confusion mesmer. I hit them for 65 with confusion then get hit back for 375 from retaliation. Yeah, that’s fair…..

But remember, the only way to counter confusion is to not attack, and the only way to truly counter retaliation is…oh wait…

Yeah, I do find it personally hilarious to see people supporting retaliation with things like “get more vit”, etc…but when confusion was on the chopping block, people were proclaiming the only thing that you could do is not attack, and therefore it must be nerfed. Confusion and retaliation, in my eyes, are the same type of idea..except one is a boon you put on yourself, and the other is condition you put on others.. I guess the only difference is you can stack the conditions, but I’ve seen people with near constant retaliation, or spreading it to entire zergs. I’ve been killed by a feedback from retaliation because someone in the raid will spread retaliation the moment it hits. It’s a great strategy though (though I don’t think reflects should be affected by retaliation, because I’m technically not “attacking” the person..they’re attacking themselves)

skinnyb.5920:

iCryptik.1496:

Protip: It’s not up 24/7. It’s up for 5-7 seconds max every 24 seconds with traited, and a few more seconds if they run greatswords.

Light fields + blast finishers.

C’mon, Al… I’m disappointed in you.

Thats assuming most guilds and players know how to properly use and stack blast finishers, and there are a lot that still don’t. >.>

That’s the beautiful thing. Guardian’s hammer auto attack lays down a light field every 4 seconds. Ring of Warding, Line of Warding, Symbol of Swiftness, and GS #4 are also all light fields which are placed on the battlefield in the middle of combat.
What’s even more beautiful is that light fields have priority over most other fields so they get blasted from normal combat/gameplay. No stacking or coordination required.
The more you know.

EDIT: Added Symbol of Swiftness and Sanctuary to my list. A hammer/staff guardian has access to 5 different light fields which are all on relatively short CD’s. They also have a “free” blast finisher on a 5 sec CD with hammer #2. Couple this one guardian with a group of ~10 or so and you have near perma retal without even trying.

Lyndis.2584:

I am a ranger.

I use a longbow. (Which is terrible enough as it is.)

I used barrage.

Retaliation ate through 8k HP. And that’s not just bad timing, these guardians spamming group retal have this up 24/7.

Wtf? That’s half my health bar. Even 100% confusion before nerf wasn’t this terrible.

Stop running glass cannon.

I’m a full boon duration guardian in WvW with a complete Giver’s set and Winter accessories. I can keep Retaliation up 50% of the time, but because I have only ~800 power, it does ~250 damage. I use “Stand Your Ground!” for the stability since the Retaliation is negligible.

Toroxus.9256:

I’m a full boon duration guardian in WvW with a complete Giver’s set and Winter accessories. I can keep Retaliation up 50% of the time, but because I have only ~800 power, it does ~250 damage. I use “Stand Your Ground!” for the stability since the Retaliation is negligible.

Sorry but you’re doing it wrong.

skinnyb.5920:

skinnyb.5920:

iCryptik.1496:

Protip: It’s not up 24/7. It’s up for 5-7 seconds max every 24 seconds with traited, and a few more seconds if they run greatswords.

Light fields + blast finishers.

C’mon, Al… I’m disappointed in you.

Thats assuming most guilds and players know how to properly use and stack blast finishers, and there are a lot that still don’t. >.>

That’s the beautiful thing. Guardian’s hammer auto attack lays down a light field every 4 seconds. Ring of Warding, Line of Warding, and GS #4 are also all light fields which are placed on the battlefield in the middle of combat.
What’s even more beautiful is that light fields have priority over most other fields so they get blasted from normal combat/gameplay. No stacking or coordination required.
The more you know.

And the even more wonderful thing is that the majority of groups tend to not have the coordination to blast in those fields, which still tends to have the same result, there still being plenty of downtime with people not having retaliation. You seem to be assuming a lot, and you know what they say when you assume to much.

Constant uptime will require a lot of coordination. Did you also know that the last field placed will take secondary priority if there is already a combo field on the ground. unless the person is in your group?

The more you know.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo_Finisher

iCryptik.1496:

And the even more wonderful thing is that the majority of groups tend to not have the coordination to blast in those fields,

Stop right there.

What I am trying to explain to you is that stacking retal requires NO coordination. The retal is spread from normal gameplay due to blast finishers being activated regularly in combat. You do not have to stack nor coordinate nor call out “Blast light fields if you see them” to get the effect I am talking about.

skinnyb.5920:

iCryptik.1496:

And the even more wonderful thing is that the majority of groups tend to not have the coordination to blast in those fields,

Stop right there.

What I am trying to explain to you is that stacking retal requires NO coordination. The retal is spread from normal gameplay due to blast finishers being activated regularly in combat.

This is true, especially if you have more than a few guardians around. Blast finishers occur enough during normal game play that you don’t have to “stack and do blast finishers” like you would for might. The only reason you have to stack and blast fire fields for might is to get up to 25 might. Since retal is only one boon, you can sustain it in normal combat quite easily. It’s why, in my mind, retal is much more powerful in large fights than confusion. A group of 20+ can easily get semi-sustained retal with a few guardians or people sharing their boons around. And if you have that, well, you just cant stop fighting most of the time, so you just gotta suck it up and take the damage or throw out null fields like mad men!

Hebril Amolebin.9817:

Drakh.3128:

Better yet, try being a confusion mesmer. I hit them for 65 with confusion then get hit back for 375 from retaliation. Yeah, that’s fair…..

your build is wrong them having a mesmer with condition build and glamour set up I hit them easily 400+ so fix your build and play smart.

For one, 400+ for confusion is no longer possible post nerf. I also fail to see how this is a build issue for me as I’m not at all speced into condition damage. I’m not condition\confusion speced, I’m PVT with 0 condition damage. I proc confusion on enemies from my chaos armor. I’m just saying it’s kinda dumb how my chaos armor can give someone confusion for 65 damage while their retaliation comes right back at me for ~375. It seems a bit counter intuitive to negate the usefulness of a defensive skill turning it into suicide against a group running retaliation (light field + blast finisher.)

Drakh.3128:

Hebril Amolebin.9817:

Drakh.3128:

Better yet, try being a confusion mesmer. I hit them for 65 with confusion then get hit back for 375 from retaliation. Yeah, that’s fair…..

your build is wrong them having a mesmer with condition build and glamour set up I hit them easily 400+ so fix your build and play smart.

For one, 400+ for confusion is no longer possible post nerf. I also fail to see how this is a build issue for me as I’m not at all speced into condition damage. I’m not condition\confusion speced, I’m PVT with 0 condition damage. I proc confusion on enemies from my chaos armor. I’m just saying it’s kinda dumb how my chaos armor can give someone confusion for 65 damage while their retaliation comes right back at me for ~375. It seems a bit counter intuitive to negate the usefulness of a defensive skill turning it into suicide against a group running retaliation (light field + blast finisher.)

Plus, as someone who has ran a condition damage confusion build for a long time, you cannot SUSTAIN those levels of confusion stacks by yourself. People can sustain retaliation, and even spread it among their raid. Confusion doesn’t spread, and the only way to get confusion stacks high enough as a single mesmer to match the same retal damage is single target. So, you have a situation where a condition was nerfed because they were able to single target do ~400 damage per attack, not sustained, while a boon, which was supposed to be nerfed hasn’t and has yet to be fixed, can do >300 damage, can be spread to entire zergs, and can be sustained pretty well. To me, this never made sense in ANY way when people on the forums were in such a huff over confusion.

Plus, and I’ll say this again, reflected attacks should not be affected by retaliation, no more so than dodge skills being affected by confusion (something I totally agree with 100%).

skinnyb.5920:

iCryptik.1496:

And the even more wonderful thing is that the majority of groups tend to not have the coordination to blast in those fields,

Stop right there.

What I am trying to explain to you is that stacking retal requires NO coordination. The retal is spread from normal gameplay due to blast finishers being activated regularly in combat. You do not have to stack nor coordinate nor call out “Blast light fields if you see them” to get the effect I am talking about.

Stop right there.

Retal can be spread through normal combat, but that does not mean it is guaranteedconsistently spread through normal combat.

In order to maintain a consistent retaliation uptime, there is some coordination required. Otherwise, retaliation is not a consistent damage source, but a sporadic and inconsistent damage source that the enemy puts out and can be managed.

Edit: This thread has been fun, and while there needs to be fixes such as retal having the same modifier in all WvW maps, overall, this thread tends to be about personal bias. I’m off to work, good luck with this thread.

The coordination requiered is running massive amounts of warriors and guardians with correct spec, there is no counter to it. This is the worst buff design.

So the comments I’m getting here is :

I’m an idiot for trying to use Barrage as an AoE function as it’s supposed to be. God forbid I try to fire an arrow barrage into a group of enemies. Because where the hell else would I put a hail of arrows? Definitely shouldn’t be in a cluster of enemies, god no. My mistake.

Just stop using barrage. In fact, just stop attacking. It’s so simple!

Fantastic advice, I guess I’ll just go quit this game now.

Edit : Also, when I’m taking more damage through Retal to myself than I deal to other players while attacking, something is terribly, terribly wrong.

I’m a full boon duration guardian in WvW with a complete Giver’s set and Winter accessories. I can keep Retaliation up 50% of the time, but because I have only ~800 power, it does ~250 damage. I use “Stand Your Ground!” for the stability since the Retaliation is negligible.

Gonna leave some math here:

Fully-geared (mostly)Zerk Engineer vs. 2600 armored target golem is putting out about 170 pts of damage per pulse on skill number one for 10 pulses (~2 seconds). This is on a non-traited Flamethower, with the 15% buff in Alchemy trait line it would be ~ 195.

Your Retaliation at ~800 power without the nerf (BL Maps) is hitting for 258 pts per pulse of #1 skill.

So assuming your armor (exotic) is base 1211, your toughness is base 916, 316 for the giver’s set as you mentioned will put you at ~2400 armor rating, without accounting for your traits. Not too far off the target golem.

So with one buff up, I can attack you in arguably the highest damage potential armor in the game, my attacks that occur at 5 times per second, with about 1/2 second in between will do less damage than the retaliation that I am taking back, even if you account for the 1 second of burning applied on the last tick of the FT.

My skill #1 can hit up to 3 targets, and while this doesn’t really maximize my DPS, with 1 auto-attack of my skill on 3 targets that you buffed, I can do approx ~1.5k damage to each target, almost 2k if you count burning, while having 7.5k damage done to myself.

Here’s the fun part, you actually haven’t attacked me yet, and most Guardians I encounter have a lot more than 800 points of power.

Most of the Engineer’s decent ranged skills are like this, with a few exceptions that lower our survivability considerably. So please, go on about your definition of negligible, and your single skill that renders most of my weapon kit useless against a zerg.

You don’t deal with it. It’s OP.

Excalibur.9748:

You don’t deal with it. It’s OP.

It does require some adjustment to play style, but you can definitely deal with it. A ranger can stand in one of those OP healing springs, for instance… or you know, carry siege with them.

There should be no skill in game that completely nullifies one’s attacks, or build for that matter. With that being said, I run a full glass cannon build and retaliation doesn’t bother me. That’s dropping a full scale barrage onto a zerg plus rapid fire. At most it takes maybe 5-6k hp off so I’m unsure how it seems so bad for other people. I’ve never died or even come close to dying from retaliation.

If it’s bothering so many people, then perhaps there should be one or 2 counter skills out there that spreads retaliation damage over an area as opposed to just a single player.

As long as you stay away from Zerker builds and run a reasonable amount of Vitality, you’ll be fine. You might have to heal sometimes, but that’s part of the game.

This is more of a problem on Borderlands than in EBG because the nerf isn’t active on Borderlands right now, but at most you’re taking around 1.5k damage per tick on a full 5 targets from Barrage in EBG, assuming you just drop your Barrage without waiting a few seconds for their collective Retal to fall off, which is typically very short.

I don’t know how many ticks Barrage hits for, but if you’re running any amount of Vitality, it shouldn’t be enough to kill you. Especially if you’ve got Regen and/or Protection up. And again, use your heal. If you’re actually dying to your own Barrage, then it’s because you’re standing in enemy AoE/in the way of their charge as well. Not just because of Retal.

Edit: As for the “it’s the same deal as Confusion pre-nerf” argument, Retaliation can’t be stacked and epidemic’d and it can’t cause several thousand damage per action whether single-target or AoE.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

…I don’t know how many ticks Barrage hits for, but if you’re running any amount of Vitality, it shouldn’t be enough to kill you. Especially if you’ve got Regen and/or Protection up. And again, use your heal. If you’re actually dying to your own Barrage, then it’s because you’re standing in enemy AoE/in the way of their charge as well. Not just because of Retal.

Edit: As for the “it’s the same deal as Confusion pre-nerf” argument, Retaliation can’t be stacked and epidemic’d and it can’t cause several thousand damage per action whether single-target or AoE.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Protection doesn’t mitigate any type of damage except DIRECT damage.

Retaliation is duration stacked, up to a possible minute by blast finishing and/or leap finishing light combo fields. In other words, Guardian + Thief (SB) = infinite retaliation. Good thing there aren’t that many Thieves or Guardians in WvW…

If you would like me to do the math again on the several thousand points of damage on just a single skill, I would be more than happy to. Since you don’t want to go to the trouble to do some simple math.

Retal isn’t a big deal. This is the same as all of the people who complained about mesmers and confusion. People complain so much

lunyboy.8672:

EFWinters.5421:

lunyboy.8672:

EFWinters.5421:

Terrahero.9358:

EFWinters.5421:

So…

• You know using Barrage will basically kill you if you fire it into a zerg.
• You still use Barrage, and promptly dies.

Sorry but I think this is working exactly as intended. Bad players die good players prevail.

Because facerubbing a gate, instagibbing people that AoE you due to Retal is the pinacle of skill. Amiright?

I never claimed it was the pinnacle of skill. But it sure as hell shows a lot more skill than AoE’ing that zerg even though you have died because of it thousands of times already.

Yeah, why would we need to have reasonable anti-zerg skills, or the ability to get those 8 Guardians/Eles off the rams at the gate?

We should just Melee in the Lord’s room like the pros do it.

This is not a thread to get retal nerfed is it? I know you want to whine and complain but please do so in the appropriate thread.

The OP asked how he should deal with retaliation. The solution is simple.

Don’t AoE.

Retaliation was supposed to be nerfed already, I just want it to be on every map, making it a bit easier to deal with people on rams blast finishing light fields for up to a minute of retaliation, each that hit for more than the skill I am using on them… which is frankly ridiculous, since there is no counter to it aside from…

Don’t attack… har har har.

And I gave the OP advice about it already, carry siege. Ballistae are particularly useful against retal buffed targets.

You can only stack retaliations duration 5 times, stacking a minute on a zerg is impossible. At most you can get 10-15 seconds with 5 blasts

This thread makes me sad, people can’t deal with something so they constantly complain about it until it becomes useless. They should just remove skills and traits from this game and have an auto attack fest. Or maybe even remove weapons altogether and we can have staring contests.

lunyboy.8672:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

…I don’t know how many ticks Barrage hits for, but if you’re running any amount of Vitality, it shouldn’t be enough to kill you. Especially if you’ve got Regen and/or Protection up. And again, use your heal. If you’re actually dying to your own Barrage, then it’s because you’re standing in enemy AoE/in the way of their charge as well. Not just because of Retal.

Edit: As for the “it’s the same deal as Confusion pre-nerf” argument, Retaliation can’t be stacked and epidemic’d and it can’t cause several thousand damage per action whether single-target or AoE.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Protection doesn’t mitigate any type of damage except DIRECT damage.

Retaliation is duration stacked, up to a possible minute by blast finishing and/or leap finishing light combo fields. In other words, Guardian + Thief (SB) = infinite retaliation. Good thing there aren’t that many Thieves or Guardians in WvW…

Stacking a whole minute is ridiculous, the duration can only be stacked 5 times. I just tested it with a thief and with 5 blasts we got 10 seconds of retaliation. Maybe with enough boon duration we could get a few seconds more.

Andy.9137:

lunyboy.8672:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

…I don’t know how many ticks Barrage hits for, but if you’re running any amount of Vitality, it shouldn’t be enough to kill you. Especially if you’ve got Regen and/or Protection up. And again, use your heal. If you’re actually dying to your own Barrage, then it’s because you’re standing in enemy AoE/in the way of their charge as well. Not just because of Retal.

Edit: As for the “it’s the same deal as Confusion pre-nerf” argument, Retaliation can’t be stacked and epidemic’d and it can’t cause several thousand damage per action whether single-target or AoE.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Protection doesn’t mitigate any type of damage except DIRECT damage.

Retaliation is duration stacked, up to a possible minute by blast finishing and/or leap finishing light combo fields. In other words, Guardian + Thief (SB) = infinite retaliation. Good thing there aren’t that many Thieves or Guardians in WvW…

Stacking a whole minute is ridiculous, the duration can only be stacked 5 times. I just tested it with a thief and with 5 blasts we got 10 seconds of retaliation. Maybe with enough boon duration we could get a few seconds more.

Can it be reapplied every 10 seconds? Because if there are only 5 stacks, and leap finishers grant 5 seconds per, then that is 25 seconds at a time…

So, closer to half a minute at a time, and then reapplied every 5 seconds as the effects of each application wear off. I stand corrected, it is only infinite retaliation, not infinity x 2.

If it helps my current build = perma-retal. It’s not really that hard to stack, look at the traits xD

lunyboy.8672:

Andy.9137:

lunyboy.8672:

Christos de Soufre.3802:

…I don’t know how many ticks Barrage hits for, but if you’re running any amount of Vitality, it shouldn’t be enough to kill you. Especially if you’ve got Regen and/or Protection up. And again, use your heal. If you’re actually dying to your own Barrage, then it’s because you’re standing in enemy AoE/in the way of their charge as well. Not just because of Retal.

Edit: As for the “it’s the same deal as Confusion pre-nerf” argument, Retaliation can’t be stacked and epidemic’d and it can’t cause several thousand damage per action whether single-target or AoE.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Protection doesn’t mitigate any type of damage except DIRECT damage.

Retaliation is duration stacked, up to a possible minute by blast finishing and/or leap finishing light combo fields. In other words, Guardian + Thief (SB) = infinite retaliation. Good thing there aren’t that many Thieves or Guardians in WvW…

Stacking a whole minute is ridiculous, the duration can only be stacked 5 times. I just tested it with a thief and with 5 blasts we got 10 seconds of retaliation. Maybe with enough boon duration we could get a few seconds more.

Can it be reapplied every 10 seconds? Because if there are only 5 stacks, and leap finishers grant 5 seconds per, then that is 25 seconds at a time…

So, closer to half a minute at a time, and then reapplied every 5 seconds as the effects of each application wear off. I stand corrected, it is only infinite retaliation, not infinity x 2.

Leap finishers grant retaliation to ONE person….

If you think retaliation isn’t a problem then you’re either not contributing to fights at all or simply having no impact.

defrule.7236:

If you think retaliation isn’t a problem then you’re either not contributing to fights at all or simply having no impact.

Or maybe you are participating in fights where abusing game mechanics isn’t the top priority?

defrule.7236:

If you think retaliation isn’t a problem then you’re either not contributing to fights at all or simply having no impact.

or maybe I know how to deal with it.

Doesn’t it occur to anyone that retal is a counter for multi hit attacks? Is it unreasonable that some things have counters? Of course not!

Obtena.7952:

Doesn’t it occur to anyone that retal is a counter for multi hit attacks? Is it unreasonable that some things have counters? Of course not!

The issue is that retaliation is readily available but boon removal on the other hand is much more limited. In its current state, it isn’t just a counter, it’s more like a shutdown of those line of skills. And it’s really not that hard to even get retaliation up, a few shouts, a few blasts in light fields which there are certainly no shortage of and even condition to boon conversion as well. It is simply rewarding passive play.

Sooo… why does your zerg lack any retaliation?

Hot Boy.7138:

If you don’t want to nuke yourself, then attack slower, don’t attack at all, or strip boons. I like retaliation and it’s function. I don’t want to see it changed. I personally don’t run a build that gives me retaliation, but I also never felt like I lost a fight because someone had retaliation up. If I ever died and the person that beat me just happened to have retaliation up during the fight, it just means the same thing if the player didn’t have retaliation up; I was outplayed. Retaliation adds more depth to combat and I appreciate that level of complexity.

The problem isn’t retaliation itself. I use retaliation and like using it. The problem is in the way it processes on multi-hit channeling skills that do not allow a player to “attack slower”. If you ever attacked a group with a multi-hit channeling skill that just happened to have the retaliation boon shared (not a complex thing to do), you would not feel like you should have just taken the time to hunt for the few people in the group with retaliation to strip boons or attacked slower (impossible to do with those skills). You learn rather quickly the current solution is to just not use that skill. That’s a game design issue. ArenaNet didn’t make skills just so people would not use them.

Don’t compare Retaliation to Confusion – even though the two are similar they aren’t the same.

Both have consequences if the enemy attacks, however confusion is much more powerful:
-Works when the enemy attacks anyone, so they can’t just target someone without retaliation and carry on attacking
-Triggers on anything, including heals, stun breaks, some dodge rolls.etc
-Confusion is stackable
-Confusion doesn’t trigger multiple times for something like Barrage (although it does for Tornado/Dagger Storm, I think)

In other words, confusion punishes you for doing anything, but retaliation only punishes you for attacking someone.

While I do think the concept of retaliation is badly implemented (it should hit really hard, but have low duration), it’s hardly the same as confusion.

Edit: I keep missing words out

To the OP,

I’m a ranger and I run with my LongBow and GS most often. And I love me some barrage… I use it regularly!! I play on EB and all the BLs, but I never have the problem of retaliation being an issue. (I run with PVT gear and have almost 23K HP w/o food.) If my hp starts to take a serious hit, I pop healing spring. If things really start to get ugly, I hit Signet of Stone (I’m traited so it affects me as well as my pet.)

I would suggest getting your HP up and toughness as well. And I don’t think you’ll really notice retaliation all that much. (16K HP is not a lot to work with as a ranger imo. At least for me it’s not.)

Cheers, brother!

Moonlight Wish – GoM