Guild Wars 2

Think about it, what is one of the biggest gripes after population imbalance? Having 1 strong server capable of fielding 24/7 cover able to tick at 500+ for 6-8 hours every day artificially inflating the scoreline and killing competition within days of the reset. there are people on both sides of the fence who do not find this particularly fun.

As it stands everything has a point value, when a PvD night crew have capped all the maps their only option is to fight oppostion players as there is nothing else to gain. Now, if server A has 60 people and servers B & C have 10 each, B & C can employ guerilla tactics to hunt down the zerg. (It might mean increasing the damage done by siege so it can actually kill people rather than simply scratch them as at present, but that is another story.)

It may mean some changes to the maps to provide more choke points to allow a small group to pick off a few from the zerg before running. Let server A keep all the camps/towers/keeps, the outmanned team cap a camp or tower to lure the attackers in, hopefully, kill a few and reduce the deficit. In response, the zerg would have to split up to hunt down their opposition in order to gain any more points.

Alter the outmanned buff to negate bloodlust and introduce more trap types to make zerg more cautious, maybe something like a pit trap affecting 5-10 people in a zerg. they fall in and can’t get out for 2 minutes. The zerg has to wait or leave them to their fate or they are ported directly back to their spawn.

The result is, the dominant server may have gained maximum points from captures but the defenders can reduce the deficit with each kill they make taking the emphasis off mindless zerging and more into tactical play.

Yes PPT kitten ruin every good fight. You try to kill some enemies and have fun until some third rat server try to PvD your T3 tower and fun ends. There should be rule that you can’t lose anything while there is orange swords in map or they could just remove whole ridiculous scoring system.

you didn’t even state one solid reason, why PPT is bad.
All you say is, there should be more open field fights and the game should encourage this, but I fail to see, how PPT is in any form related to this. Please elaborate.

Junkpile.7439:

Yes PPT kitten ruin every good fight. You try to kill some enemies and have fun until some third rat server try to PvD your T3 tower and fun ends. There should be rule that you can’t lose anything while there is orange swords in map or they could just remove whole ridiculous scoring system.

this is what SFR always do :P

McWolfy.5924:

Junkpile.7439:

Yes PPT kitten ruin every good fight. You try to kill some enemies and have fun until some third rat server try to PvD your T3 tower and fun ends. There should be rule that you can’t lose anything while there is orange swords in map or they could just remove whole ridiculous scoring system.

this is what SFR always do :P

Roleplayers should stay out of www threads.

To elaborate….PPT gives points regardless of effort. During ‘Primetime’ there is the nearest thing to a balanced match up. Even the weakest server in a match is capable of of putting up a fight.

Reset and everyone is ready to go, each server is at their strongest, although not necessarily equal.

To put this into numbers purely to illustrate the idea.

NPC/player kills – 3 points
Camp capture/defence – 10 points
Tower capture/defence – 15 points
Keep capture/defence – 25 points
SMC capture/defence – 30 points

during 6 hours after reset:

Server A:
NPC/player kills – 2000 × 3pts
Camps captured/defended – 100 × 10pts
Towers captured/defended – 50 × 15pts
Keeps captured/defended – 10 × 20pts
SMC captured defended – 2 × 25 pts
Score after 6 hours = 8000

Server B:
NPC/player kills – 2100 × 3pts
Camps captured/defended – 80 × 10pts
Towers captured/defended – 40 × 15pts
Keeps captured/defended – 8 × 20pts
SMC captured defended – 1 × 25pts
Score after 6 hours = 7885

Server C:
NPC/player kills – 2200 × 3pts
Camps captured/defended – 60 × 10pts
Towers captured/defended – 30 × 15pts
Keeps captured/defended – 6 × 20pts
SMC captured defended – 0
Score after 6 hours = 7770

After 6 hours the majority of players from server B and C log off leaving 15 players on each. Server A still has 50 players left and for the next 6 hours proceed to capture all remaing property on all maps, 15 camps, 10 towers, 8 keeps and SMC thereby increasing their points total by 445 to 8445, they also manage to gain 200 kills giving another 600 pts giving a grand total of 9045 after 12 hours of play.

Servers B & C decide their is nothing to be gained from regaining any of their property and resort to hunter/killer against server A, by doing so server B gains 300 kills and server C gains 250 kills.

After 12 hours the scores stand at:
Server A – 9045
Server B – 8785
Server C – 8520

As the day begins and numbers increase across all servers there is still every chance for anyone to win.

If you want to put the onus on actual PvP increase the points per kill to 5 and see the difference.

Server A – 13445
Server B – 13585
Server C – 13420

Far closer now

tichai.4351:

when a PvD night crew …

You mean people living in other countries?

You make it sound as if there are secret operative groups set up for this specific purpose.

It’s all about who has the most numbers regardless of time zone – my server has been on the receiving end of mega-zergs for the last month.

Interesting but consider with the focus soley on captures/ kills, a server can simply not play and have fairly close scores. Also two servers who decide to trade objectives can eclipse a third server in points very quickly. Seems like there are many ways to abuse such a system

phys.7689:

Interesting but consider with the focus soley on captures/ kills, a server can simply not play and have fairly close scores. Also two servers who decide to trade objectives can eclipse a third server in points very quickly. Seems like there are many ways to abuse such a system

It is fair to say any system is open to abuse but one would hope the majority of people would play by the rules. Two servers working together to manipulate the score hasn’t happened so far, even to topple a dominating server, and again, there are more fair minded people around who would be against any form of abuse.

The idea is to limit the effect of large groups taking advantage of other, quieter servers during off peak times and discourage zergs for being an ineffective use of manpower during these times.

In a situation where 2 of the three servers have 24/7 cover the fighting won’t change. Yes the third server will still suffer and may have to rethink their strategy by only recapping things they know they can hold for some time, building slowly and looking for as many kills as possible to redress the balance.

It’s about matches going down to the wire, giving each server a fighting chance depending on their tactics and circumstances.

Anything that stops matches being over after 2 days and leagues being over halfway through has to be better, surely?

tichai.4351:

In a situation where 2 of the three servers have 24/7 cover the fighting won’t change. Yes the third server will still suffer and may have to rethink their strategy by only recapping things they know they can hold for some time, building slowly and looking for as many kills as possible to redress the balance.

Wrong.
If 2 servers got 24/7 and one doesn’t, those 2 will happily exchange objectives during the off-hours and leave the third one in the dust.

Also, it is a bad thing to introduce such a system, when the current problem is people capping too much and not defending enough. Karma trains would be the only way to gain points for the server.
I can already see the giant karma trains go choo-choo, tearing through wooden gates and taking objective after objective.

tichai.4351:

phys.7689:

Interesting but consider with the focus soley on captures/ kills, a server can simply not play and have fairly close scores. Also two servers who decide to trade objectives can eclipse a third server in points very quickly. Seems like there are many ways to abuse such a system

It is fair to say any system is open to abuse but one would hope the majority of people would play by the rules. Two servers working together to manipulate the score hasn’t happened so far, even to topple a dominating server, and again, there are more fair minded people around who would be against any form of abuse.

The idea is to limit the effect of large groups taking advantage of other, quieter servers during off peak times and discourage zergs for being an ineffective use of manpower during these times.

In a situation where 2 of the three servers have 24/7 cover the fighting won’t change. Yes the third server will still suffer and may have to rethink their strategy by only recapping things they know they can hold for some time, building slowly and looking for as many kills as possible to redress the balance.

It’s about matches going down to the wire, giving each server a fighting chance depending on their tactics and circumstances.

Anything that stops matches being over after 2 days and leagues being over halfway through has to be better, surely?

I heard in matchup thread two servers were flipping stonemist and not attacking each other this week. Only takes a few people to do this.

I understand you r goal, but let’s be honest people would still get stomped by higher numbers and scores and quit. People do it in spvp and that has no excuse.

naphack.9346:

tichai.4351:

In a situation where 2 of the three servers have 24/7 cover the fighting won’t change. Yes the third server will still suffer and may have to rethink their strategy by only recapping things they know they can hold for some time, building slowly and looking for as many kills as possible to redress the balance.

Wrong.
If 2 servers got 24/7 and one doesn’t, those 2 will happily exchange objectives during the off-hours and leave the third one in the dust.

Also, it is a bad thing to introduce such a system, when the current problem is people capping too much and not defending enough. Karma trains would be the only way to gain points for the server.
I can already see the giant karma trains go choo-choo, tearing through wooden gates and taking objective after objective.

or you could reward points for defending and also make it worth more points to take an objective that has been held for a length of time and worth very little to flip a recently captured objective.
this is an easy enough system to test on edge of the mists. Maybe it will work maybe it won’t. Yet we have seen what the current system does and we know its flawed.

Points for defending = points for holding = points for posessing = PPT.

If you are so concerned about karma trains and want to enforce defensive play, introduce a cooldown on ppt.
From the point, the object is captured, it won’t generate points for x ticks, where x is:
camps – 1
towers – 2
keeps – 3
castle – 4

This is reversible, so, if a keep has been captured and held for only one tick, before being recaptured by the original owner, they will have to wait only 1 tick for it to generate points again.

how about this ppt structure to balance things. 1 ppt for all structures you own in your territory, basically your bl and your third of the ebg, and thats it. so it becomes a game of take enemey structures to prevent them from geting points and hold yours to keep you ppt up. SMC would give no points it woud be a strategic structure for faster map travel and the ability to siege enemy structures. this would prevent these huge ppt score differentials because one server has more presence in a specific time period. should also keep scores closer

naphack.9346:

Points for defending = points for holding = points for posessing = PPT.

If you are so concerned about karma trains and want to enforce defensive play, introduce a cooldown on ppt.
From the point, the object is captured, it won’t generate points for x ticks, where x is:
camps – 1
towers – 2
keeps – 3
castle – 4

This is reversible, so, if a keep has been captured and held for only one tick, before being recaptured by the original owner, they will have to wait only 1 tick for it to generate points again.

points for defending a structure or objective that is currently under attack. We all know the difference between owning an objective and defending it. With the amount of calls for a reward for defending you think people would be behind this idea.

the thing is “when is a defense a defense?”
when the gate has been breached?
when a player died?
when a thief poked the gates?

also, how many points?
how often?

this is pretty vague and might result in bypassing yakslappers, who intercept a yak right before the tower giving way more points to their enemies than gained by slapping the yak by triggering a defense event…
…Or even worse.
Worst case, nobody will want to fight next to a structure anymore until the whole thing has been decimated by an hour of treb bombardment and all defenders drowned in an endless flood of cows.

The scoring system could use some serious work to make it more interesting, fair, and encourage fights and minimize the discouragement of losing teams who feel they have zero chance of making any further impact on it.

HOWEVER, with no scoring system and no orbs and no sense of WvW being the ‘endgame’ in this game…. removing it would just mean 95%+ of the players are swapping structures for karma, loot and achievements. I think you’d better promote fixing it, not removing it.

naphack.9346:

the thing is “when is a defense a defense?”
when the gate has been breached?
when a player died?
when a thief poked the gates?

also, how many points?
how often?

this is pretty vague and might result in bypassing yakslappers, who intercept a yak right before the tower giving way more points to their enemies than gained by slapping the yak by triggering a defense event…
…Or even worse.
Worst case, nobody will want to fight next to a structure anymore until the whole thing has been decimated by an hour of treb bombardment and all defenders drowned in an endless flood of cows.

hence testing, but it could always be defense scenario does not start till a part if the structure has taken a determined percent of damage.

don’t show that a structure is under attack unless it is controlled by a guild or the attacking force is over a set size dependent on the size of the structure and then only announce is to the guild that holds it for a smaller attack.

but like I said it would need to be hashed out and tested.

OR

if ANET really want to have PPT, make it count every 2 hours…… or even 4 hours may be….

but removing is always better….

Replace it with kills! KPT

1 kill = one point, no need to stomp,

some desire a GvG type format, others dont realize how awesome GvG is. those are the only 2 sides in my opinion.
when anet realizes that their hopes for esport recognition lies in GvG, then maybe. just maybe.

Making it PPC (Points per Cap) won’t solve anything… removing PPT won’t solve anything…

Both of those methods take away from the fundimentals of wvw and encourage karma trains…

I think… PPT should be revised so that upgraded items give more PPT than non-upgraded items, this would encourage people to defend their towers and camps rather than just forming a train to take it back after timer resets. Then add an outmanned buff increasing player stats dependent on how many people are attacking that tower/keep…stats only apply to player(s) defending that one tower/keep under attack. or vise versa.. outmann buff a 5 man squad attacking a 20man defended tower… but either of those buffs only occur if the server itself is outmanned… these buffs would help servers with lower pops keep up with high pop servers.

I think this would make it so wvw would rely more on stratagy and well co-ordinated small groups vs the current skill lagging blob v blob mentality. Map coverage would dominate, building siege and holding onto objectives would wind up being more rewarding than simply training through and capping everything

Why stop there if you want simple, just ask for them to remove all the buildings, give us a flat piece of land with a river running straight through it with one bridge so we can have bridge fights all week……

If you take out the point scoring then the wvw maps are useless/pointless and everything will devolve into a karma train. Obviously the point system needs a lot of work because of population imbalances, imbalances that anet encouraged because of their stubbornness to change it, you remember night time capping topic? they said to deal with it. Lowering transfer cost to the top 3 servers to 800 gems before season start, what a huge mistake.

There are many fixes that can be done, like how about the stomps for points giving 3 points for the 3rd places team and only 1 point for the 1st place team, give extra points for kills in your own base on defense hell set that up with a guild fort buff, how about the out-manned buff giving extra bonus points for capturing a base and on kills.

Finally, if you duelers and guild vs guilders want a place of your own then start asking for it and stop trying to ruin world vs world. Although it already looks like the new wvw overflow map will be right up your alley for this.

PPT is reason why players blob and why www is boring kitten.

I certainly wouldn’t presume to have the perfect solution. Sometimes simplifying a problem goes a long way to solving it though. I think at times developers get so wrapped up in ‘metrics’ and convoluted theories they can loose sight of the objective, which, in this case is to find a way to put the fun and competition into WvW which is all anyone wants.

You can do that by increasing Time-To-Cap.

First you give all Supervisors/Lords a base Righteous Indignation(RI) of 5 minutes.

Once the RI fades, there will be an event circle (like Sentry cap) which slowly increases when more friendly players stand in the circle. It’s tuned so 1 player takes around 1 minute while 5+ players takes 30 seconds. This event when completed will rebuff the Supervisor/Lord with RI.

By doing this you can force players to split and reward them for defending. It becomes strategic to have 1-2 roaming groups constantly refreshing RI on camps and towers. This will penalize the zerg, you can guarantee that unless they split into a forward scout and main force, they will constantly encounter 5 minute RI on everything they try to take.

Right now there is no incentive to split because you guaranteed for RI to fade before your main zerg arrive.

Wanna stop karma trains? Split rewards by groups that participated.

wont do that thou people may get made at each other.