Guild Wars 2

Master of Timespace.2548:

So what I gather is that when a thief wins a tough duel it’s because we are bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs and when other classes do it they are skilled dueling gods.

Expressing the truth in a sarcastic manner doesn’t make it any less real.

Unfortunately I can’t express the truth in regards to you and people like you because I would get yet another infraction.

I still think Anet should just make lvl 80’s fully naked and only have a stick as a weapon (where we can customise its colour) thats it!

I bet all u troll will still qq about sum1 being op coz they hit to hard with the stick bahahaaha..

Dirge.1250:

I still think Anet should just make lvl 80’s fully naked and only have a stick as a weapon (where we can customise its colour) thats it!

I bet all u troll will still qq about sum1 being op coz they hit to hard with the stick bahahaaha..

Nope. They would QQ about lack of “variety” because “all the classes play the same and use the same weapons and skills”.

LOL too true, they always have to QQ about something

It’s Unfortunate..

“Our Suffrerers Are Always Crying and We Their Torturers, Are Always in Joy”, Thief.

Once And For All, Please End this Irony of Stealth!!

Renxian.6982:

So what I gather is that when a thief wins a tough duel it’s because we are bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs and when other classes do it they are skilled dueling gods.

Obviously stealth is the only mechanic in game that makes targets hard to kill, and only thieves have said mechanic. Please tell me about how super hard it is to play a guardian, warrior, or necro.

Naw, you just didn’t read what I wrote. That’s cool. Most thieves are so upset over being called Op where they are Op that they focus on that and do not read the rest. You even skipped the guardian, DD ele, Mesmer thing. I get it. I really do, but if you are going to quote me then read what I have to say. If not do not waist your time. Post like yours just reinforce the fact that most thieves are, “bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs” (as you put it) who lack scope. Re read my other post if you want to respond not in the mood for the back and forth bs that tends to go on here. I broke it down how it is that is all.

Bethryn.4087:

When you see Black Powder go down, maybe you should try standing inside it so that they can’t HS without hitting you, which, amazingly enough, breaks their stealth and gives them Revealed.

Doesn’t work. The HS that hits you first when they start the combo does not cause reveal. So, they can put down number 5, HS, stealths, HS hits you, and they are still stealthed.

I’m not sure why this hasn’t been reported as a bug and fixed.

I main a warrior and thief and it’s PURE COMEDY how easy it is to fight people with my thief using P/D. You can win a fight just by doing the cheese mode combo and back stab. Just rinse and repeat. It’s so effective it’s absurd.

Also, while on this subject…..Blocking an attack from an invisible thief with my Aegis or Shield Stance SHOULD reveal a thief. This would promote more skillful game play by the thief. Not just spam back stab until a shield goes away. There’s no skill in that. Right now a thief can spam backstab on my warrior that is blocking until the shield goes away. There’s no arguing against this change and it needs to be implemented ASAP.

Omg!
I can’t kill everything!
Nerf it Anet!

TheGuy.3568:

Renxian.6982:

So what I gather is that when a thief wins a tough duel it’s because we are bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs and when other classes do it they are skilled dueling gods.

Obviously stealth is the only mechanic in game that makes targets hard to kill, and only thieves have said mechanic. Please tell me about how super hard it is to play a guardian, warrior, or necro.

Naw, you just didn’t read what I wrote. That’s cool. Most thieves are so upset over being called Op where they are Op that they focus on that and do not read the rest. You even skipped the guardian, DD ele, Mesmer thing. I get it. I really do, but if you are going to quote me then read what I have to say. If not do not waist your time. Post like yours just reinforce the fact that most thieves are, “bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs” (as you put it) who lack scope. Re read my other post if you want to respond not in the mood for the back and forth bs that tends to go on here. I broke it down how it is that is all.

I read your whole post, including the backwards shot at D/D ele’s. That doesn’t really make your post less stupid to me. D/D eles , much like thieves, aren’t overpowered. They have very specific strengths. The only difference is ele’s excel in a much wider range of situations. Guardians I have mixed feelings about, but they generally win through simple attrition, they will just outlast you. Mesmers I cannot be objective about because I despise them. Having a unique strength or advantage is not overpowered.

All the tongue in cheek crying in the world won’t change that fact.

Dual.8953:

XII.9401:

Dual.8953:

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

Nice troll comparing Thief to Guardian (aka the most carried class in the game) give a Guardian a hammer and a staff and they will not die. I’m almost always the last man standing on my guard, because all I have to do when my low is hit staff 4 and I’m good as new. How’s that? I don’t even need stealth to reset the fight.

Mhmm if he was a troll then why didn’t you respond to his warrior comment? Oh wait..he’s right..

Oh really now? Wanna open that can of worms do ya? Okay I’ll bite.
Even though Warriors are bottom in TPvP, they’ve overall still got it better than theives, trumping even the Guardian in PvE, and being overall more useful in WvW. Name one role besides Solo roaming in WvW where thieves are actually wanted?
GW2 is a game for teamplay, and thief is always near the bottom in any team situation.
In fact, if you took solo roaming from thieves, they would be the bar none worst class in the game.
In any case, he invalidated his point by stating the number one most requested class across all modes isn’t easy mode. The class I’ve actually heard brag that they can afk fights. The class that’s welcome in almost every party in every mode. A class that I’ve played and never felt challenged in the slightest on. I mean seriously, of Guardians found a good roaming build, that’d be it, there’d be absolutely no reason to role any class other then a Guardian.

This is the problem, this is why their stealth abilities need to be drastically toned down while given more diverse builds that are actually useful. Thieves are basically pigeon-holed into this build, which in fact is the most OP build in the game across all classes, bar none. Do they really have a choice if they want to be somewhat effective in WvW? Not really. I’ve seen thieves try to operate in both team fights and zergs with minimal stealth and they are beyond terrible.

Anet’s fault for building them that way. They essentially need to be completely rebuilt from the ground up, much like the Ranger.

oh boy more glass scrubs complaining that another glass beat them in wvw lol

I’m all for constructive discussion on how to counter stealth and or revise its use.

That said I could care less about the opinions of people who’ve only played the aforementioned stealth spamming builds and no other class / spec. They see a mechanic of high reward / low risk and exploit it. It’s hard not to be bias when you play 1 character and nothing else. I can understand how people get invested in their character(s) and of course any changes for the better or worse will get their attention but when there are obvious balance issues don’t kid yourselves.

Don’t take it as people think they should be able to deal with all classes without effort. RPGs are always about rock paper scissors elements and in general due to the numbers in WvW this doesn’t matter nearly as much as sPvP for example. As it stands though these P/D builds have a considerable advantage over the majority of things in the game where WvW is concerned.

Many thieves I respect and who play other professions as well often agree stealth needs re balancing. I WvW with 6 professions, including thief so i’m not talking without experience here…

Although they’ve tried to an extent, I’d like to see WvW balanced separate from both PVE and sPVP. This way structured players can be left be, as can PVE players.

@Bogy

Fact is backstab / heart seeker rotations have the highest burst potential for direct damage in the game, now out performing Warrior GS by a good bit since the recent warrior balance changes. I’ve been burnt down from 22000hp and 3400 armor as if i were a berserker staff ele… So be careful with the assumptions there and add something intelligent to the conversion while your at it.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Dual.8953:

XII.9401:

Dual.8953:

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

Nice troll comparing Thief to Guardian (aka the most carried class in the game) give a Guardian a hammer and a staff and they will not die. I’m almost always the last man standing on my guard, because all I have to do when my low is hit staff 4 and I’m good as new. How’s that? I don’t even need stealth to reset the fight.

Mhmm if he was a troll then why didn’t you respond to his warrior comment? Oh wait..he’s right..

Oh really now? Wanna open that can of worms do ya? Okay I’ll bite.
Even though Warriors are bottom in TPvP, they’ve overall still got it better than theives, trumping even the Guardian in PvE, and being overall more useful in WvW. Name one role besides Solo roaming in WvW where thieves are actually wanted?
GW2 is a game for teamplay, and thief is always near the bottom in any team situation.
In fact, if you took solo roaming from thieves, they would be the bar none worst class in the game.
In any case, he invalidated his point by stating the number one most requested class across all modes isn’t easy mode. The class I’ve actually heard brag that they can afk fights. The class that’s welcome in almost every party in every mode. A class that I’ve played and never felt challenged in the slightest on. I mean seriously, of Guardians found a good roaming build, that’d be it, there’d be absolutely no reason to role any class other then a Guardian.

This is the problem, this is why their stealth abilities need to be drastically toned down while given more diverse builds that are actually useful. Thieves are basically pigeon-holed into this build, which in fact is the most OP build in the game across all classes, bar none. Do they really have a choice if they want to be somewhat effective in WvW? Not really. I’ve seen thieves try to operate in both team fights and zergs with minimal stealth and they are beyond terrible.

Anet’s fault for building them that way. They essentially need to be completely rebuilt from the ground up, much like the Ranger.

Rebuilt from the ground up might be the easiest way. The biggest balance problem with stealth imo is they went and made different weapon sets rely on stealth in different ways. D/D and D/P only needing one stealth to be effective, and S/D and P/D needing to use their stealth attack as much as possible.

Renxian.6982:

TheGuy.3568:

Renxian.6982:

So what I gather is that when a thief wins a tough duel it’s because we are bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs and when other classes do it they are skilled dueling gods.

Obviously stealth is the only mechanic in game that makes targets hard to kill, and only thieves have said mechanic. Please tell me about how super hard it is to play a guardian, warrior, or necro.

Naw, you just didn’t read what I wrote. That’s cool. Most thieves are so upset over being called Op where they are Op that they focus on that and do not read the rest. You even skipped the guardian, DD ele, Mesmer thing. I get it. I really do, but if you are going to quote me then read what I have to say. If not do not waist your time. Post like yours just reinforce the fact that most thieves are, “bandwagoning, skill-less, scrubs” (as you put it) who lack scope. Re read my other post if you want to respond not in the mood for the back and forth bs that tends to go on here. I broke it down how it is that is all.

I read your whole post, including the backwards shot at D/D ele’s. That doesn’t really make your post less stupid to me. D/D eles , much like thieves, aren’t overpowered. They have very specific strengths. The only difference is ele’s excel in a much wider range of situations. Guardians I have mixed feelings about, but they generally win through simple attrition, they will just outlast you. Mesmers I cannot be objective about because I despise them. Having a unique strength or advantage is not overpowered.

All the tongue in cheek crying in the world won’t change that fact.

Wow, just wow. You didn’t read my whole post you just felt like talking and you did now. Feel better? I am not going to explain it to you. Either you read it all or you didn’t. Obviously you didn’t given the content of your reply.

And yes if your advantage is too strong then your OP that is common sense and the definition of the word. Being better at something is fine. Stealth is an absolute advantage in WvW roaming. And given the thief’s ridiculously strong access to stealth; it is not all that hard to argue that it is OP in that application.

Might need to read it again but I doubt you read any of it in the first place. Look champ I get it you are a thief and you feel strongly about your class. Fact is though that won’t make you right. I pointed out the shortcomings of thief and where it is OP. Get over it. These stupid responses just further the stereotype that thieves are the worst players in this game and the worst part of this community. I am hard pressed to disagree.

(Backward shot at DD ele lol. Wow you really can’t read. You even point out good dueling specs at the end of your first post I literally did the same thing at the end of mine. You just want to argue for argument sake and that is literally really kittening stupid. Our convo is done.)

Less QQ more Stealth Disruptor Traps.
You say thieves are ez mode, skilless and blablabla but you cant do a basic thing like put down a trap to screw a build ?

Bogy.2953:

oh boy more glass scrubs complaining that another glass beat them in wvw lol

If you play a glass thief you are probably new to thief and don’t really know how to trait and gear up properly.

You say thieves are ez mode, skilless and blablabla but you cant do a basic thing like put down a trap to screw a build ?

How stupid thief does it take to walk on that trap though? Actually I sometimes walk on them on purpose because I know I can get away without stealth as well. Shadow Step, inv. strike & steal on nearest mob = instant breaking of aggro. Can also continue with withdraw, roll for initative or signet of inflitration depending which one you like to carry.

Master of Timespace.2548:

How stupid thief does it take to walk on that trap though?

No need of stupidity. You put the trap under your feet, if he’ll attack you he’ll trigger the trap.
Maybe you can go away, maybe not… surely for 30 seconds no more dumb combo.

Daendur.2357:

Master of Timespace.2548:

How stupid thief does it take to walk on that trap though?

No need of stupidity. You put the trap under your feet, if he’ll attack you he’ll trigger the trap.
Maybe you can go away, maybe not… surely for 30 seconds no more dumb combo.

So, let me get this straigth.

You have to spend 15 badges, 500 karma and 10 supply to then spend 4seconds casting a trap. Mind you, if you get interupted mid-cast, you lose 15 badges and get no Trap placed.
Then you are going to stand there, in the fairly small radius it triggers in. Hoping for a Thief to attack you and hope he triggers the trap? (since he can still hit you from outside the trigger radius)
I assume you are just waiting there because if a Thief was already around he would see you place the trap.

Now lets say all this goes according to plan. You managed to shoo a Thief away for 30seconds.

And thats your idea of a viable counter? Really?

That Thief just single-handedly managed to destroy 10 supply from your server that couldve been put to far better use, and personally cost you 15 badges not to mention the time you spend there like a muppet NOT doing anything productive.

the cost i negligible … and no, you don’t have to put it down and wait for a thief to come … it’s a counter to d/p build, can be placed in combat using stability or after having bursted the thief.

It is a viable counter to a build that rely too much on stealth.
You don’t want to use it? It’s your choice but it doesn’t imply stealth disruptor doesn’t exist or it doesn’t work.

I honestly don’t understand the complaint. While I do find stealth to be powerful, it doesn’t elevate the Thief class above Rangers, Elementalists, Guardians, or Mesmers in overall roaming power as I consider each to be equally powerful.

I honestly have no problem with perma stealth in this game or any other as most games with a stealthing class actually do have perma stealth. Now clearly in this game it’s one of those things that probably wasn’t planned, but my only complaint with perma stealth the way it’s implemented in this game is really the fact that it doesn’t trade off any real damage for all the added utility perma stealth provides.

Earlier in the thread I half-heatedly mentioned replacing the leap finisher as that’s the lazy man’s choice to resolve this issue. The root of the problem is very clearly the iniatitive regen system in this game though.

But I’m concerned that a lot of people who argue for nerfing things like weapon synergy for a class simply aren’t experienced enough with the class to fully comprehend just how far reaching their changes could end up being.

Initiative regen needs to be fixed, but I’m not stupid enough to think they can do it without dramatic improvements elsewhere. It’s the same with adjusting just the stealth aspect of the class. This class is not built very well and stealth is so powerful that it hides the legitimate issues with this class.

To nerf one would need enormous buffs in other areas.

People will defend their crutches to the death when their egos depend on it.

Until it hits anet in the pocketbook they arent going to bother.

When thieves complain about no roamers and endless zerging, they only need to look at themselves.

And the whole spiel about useless in wvw?

What an utter load of tripe, supply is incredibly important in wvw, and there is NO class better at sniping yaks than thieves.

A really good thief can only be stopped by an excess of 5 players or in many cases more, this is exacerbated by the plethora of neutral and AMBIENT mobs near yak paths.

It’s utterly ridiculous.

Rawr.5930:

People will defend their crutches to the death when their egos depend on it.

Until it hits anet in the pocketbook they arent going to bother.

When thieves complain about no roamers and endless zerging, they only need to look at themselves.

And the whole spiel about useless in wvw?

What an utter load of tripe, supply is incredibly important in wvw, and there is NO class better at sniping yaks than thieves.

A really good thief can only be stopped by an excess of 5 players or in many cases more, this is exacerbated by the plethora of neutral and AMBIENT mobs near yak paths.

It’s utterly ridiculous.

How can a class be worse at killing yaks… You target a yak, you attack. If you kill the yak the escorts despawn and every class can soak up the damage. But even if they can’t, Rangers and Mesmers are still infinitely better at taking camps.

And do you really expect players that play a game built around siege warfare to get enjoyment out of killing cows and triggering swords on unguarded keeps as their sole value to a group in this game?

I understand people hate thieves, but don’t be naive…

Atherakhia.4086:

I honestly don’t understand the complaint. While I do find stealth to be powerful, it doesn’t elevate the Thief class above Rangers, Elementalists, Guardians, or Mesmers in overall roaming power as I consider each to be equally powerful.

I honestly have no problem with perma stealth in this game or any other as most games with a stealthing class actually do have perma stealth. Now clearly in this game it’s one of those things that probably wasn’t planned, but my only complaint with perma stealth the way it’s implemented in this game is really the fact that it doesn’t trade off any real damage for all the added utility perma stealth provides.

Earlier in the thread I half-heatedly mentioned replacing the leap finisher as that’s the lazy man’s choice to resolve this issue. The root of the problem is very clearly the iniatitive regen system in this game though.

But I’m concerned that a lot of people who argue for nerfing things like weapon synergy for a class simply aren’t experienced enough with the class to fully comprehend just how far reaching their changes could end up being.

Initiative regen needs to be fixed, but I’m not stupid enough to think they can do it without dramatic improvements elsewhere. It’s the same with adjusting just the stealth aspect of the class. This class is not built very well and stealth is so powerful that it hides the legitimate issues with this class.

To nerf one would need enormous buffs in other areas.

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots). Dropping all that utility for misdirection and the simple fact that instead of simply moving erratically and leaving people feel the need to blow every cooldown they have trying to hit a thief that is doing 0 damage.

No one is denying that stealth is inherently powerful, but it’s not the end all be all of wvw roaming and it’s not even the easiest way to reset a fight. I reset fights all the time on my ranger and it’s all of lvl 35. If anything my ranger is better at it because it a can tank a ton of damage and regen mid fight on top of being able to reset at will. Hell I play my ranger the same way I play my thief. Dip in and out, reset till I win.

Atherakhia.4086:

Rawr.5930:

People will defend their crutches to the death when their egos depend on it.

Until it hits anet in the pocketbook they arent going to bother.

When thieves complain about no roamers and endless zerging, they only need to look at themselves.

And the whole spiel about useless in wvw?

What an utter load of tripe, supply is incredibly important in wvw, and there is NO class better at sniping yaks than thieves.

A really good thief can only be stopped by an excess of 5 players or in many cases more, this is exacerbated by the plethora of neutral and AMBIENT mobs near yak paths.

It’s utterly ridiculous.

How can a class be worse at killing yaks… You target a yak, you attack. If you kill the yak the escorts despawn and every class can soak up the damage. But even if they can’t, Rangers and Mesmers are still infinitely better at taking camps.

And do you really expect players that play a game built around siege warfare to get enjoyment out of killing cows and triggering swords on unguarded keeps as their sole value to a group in this game?

I understand people hate thieves, but don’t be naive…

Do you even wvw?

Yaks are incredibly important, and thieves are the best class at sniping them bar none.

On one hand you have complaints about thieves not being useful in wvw, but when that argument is invalidated, the counter argument to that is that yak sniping is boring?

Really?

Yaks are possibly the most important objectives in wvw at any decent level of play.

1 decent thief can effectively shut down upgrades to any keep in the game, 3 can shut down supply on a map, requiring at least 5 human players on each yak to try and stop him/them and that isnt OP or valuable to the overall effort?

It’s not about killing the thief, it’s about stopping them taking the yaks.

I do not main a thief, but i do have one, and im the first to admit im a terribad thief, but even then i can reliably snipe yaks with 3 or more human escorts, only really having problems with 5 or more escorts and the npc guards.

Thieves are by NO MEANS useless in wvw, that argument exhibits a very shallow understanding of the overall meta.

Daendur.2357:

the cost i negligible … and no, you don’t have to put it down and wait for a thief to come … it’s a counter to d/p build, can be placed in combat using stability or after having bursted the thief.

It is a viable counter to a build that rely too much on stealth.
You don’t want to use it? It’s your choice but it doesn’t imply stealth disruptor doesn’t exist or it doesn’t work.

The very existence of those traps are proof of how OP thief is. It’s proof that other classes have no inherent way of countering stealth. You NEED to buy a trap and waste karma and supplies and badges in order to actually counter it. There is no way to remove stealth from a thief without those traps. And you see nothing wrong with that? With the fact it’s the only class that you need to buy an item to actively counter its class mechanics. Why not just give other classes a skill that causes reveal? thief wouldn’t need to be changed or and other classes have an actual counter to it.

Atherakhia.4086:

I honestly don’t understand the complaint. While I do find stealth to be powerful, it doesn’t elevate the Thief class above Rangers, Elementalists, Guardians, or Mesmers in overall roaming power as I consider each to be equally powerful.

I honestly have no problem with perma stealth in this game or any other as most games with a stealthing class actually do have perma stealth. Now clearly in this game it’s one of those things that probably wasn’t planned, but my only complaint with perma stealth the way it’s implemented in this game is really the fact that it doesn’t trade off any real damage for all the added utility perma stealth provides.

Earlier in the thread I half-heatedly mentioned replacing the leap finisher as that’s the lazy man’s choice to resolve this issue. The root of the problem is very clearly the iniatitive regen system in this game though.

But I’m concerned that a lot of people who argue for nerfing things like weapon synergy for a class simply aren’t experienced enough with the class to fully comprehend just how far reaching their changes could end up being.

Initiative regen needs to be fixed, but I’m not stupid enough to think they can do it without dramatic improvements elsewhere. It’s the same with adjusting just the stealth aspect of the class. This class is not built very well and stealth is so powerful that it hides the legitimate issues with this class.

To nerf one would need enormous buffs in other areas.

I doubt Anet would go through all the trouble of actually trying to balance things. they just nerf things in an attempt to balance things and end up destroying many builds in the process without tackling the core problem. Just look at elementalist. They wanted to bring down the bunker build but nerfed the wrong things that other lesser niche builds depended on just for survival making them completely ususable now. Which had the exact opposite effect they wanted and caused even more people to go to bunker build because they annihilated some of the lesser used glassy builds by utterly destroying what little survivability they had, while not buffing anything in return. So instead of making other builds viable, they just weakened the whole class overall and made even less builds viable than there were before. So I wouldn’t hold out too much hope on them trying to balance thief. they have no clue what they’re doing.

Renxian.6982:

Atherakhia.4086:

I honestly don’t understand the complaint. While I do find stealth to be powerful, it doesn’t elevate the Thief class above Rangers, Elementalists, Guardians, or Mesmers in overall roaming power as I consider each to be equally powerful.

I honestly have no problem with perma stealth in this game or any other as most games with a stealthing class actually do have perma stealth. Now clearly in this game it’s one of those things that probably wasn’t planned, but my only complaint with perma stealth the way it’s implemented in this game is really the fact that it doesn’t trade off any real damage for all the added utility perma stealth provides.

Earlier in the thread I half-heatedly mentioned replacing the leap finisher as that’s the lazy man’s choice to resolve this issue. The root of the problem is very clearly the iniatitive regen system in this game though.

But I’m concerned that a lot of people who argue for nerfing things like weapon synergy for a class simply aren’t experienced enough with the class to fully comprehend just how far reaching their changes could end up being.

Initiative regen needs to be fixed, but I’m not stupid enough to think they can do it without dramatic improvements elsewhere. It’s the same with adjusting just the stealth aspect of the class. This class is not built very well and stealth is so powerful that it hides the legitimate issues with this class.

To nerf one would need enormous buffs in other areas.

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots). Dropping all that utility for misdirection and the simple fact that instead of simply moving erratically and leaving people feel the need to blow every cooldown they have trying to hit a thief that is doing 0 damage.

No one is denying that stealth is inherently powerful, but it’s not the end all be all of wvw roaming and it’s not even the easiest way to reset a fight. I reset fights all the time on my ranger and it’s all of lvl 35. If anything my ranger is better at it because it a can tank a ton of damage and regen mid fight on top of being able to reset at will. Hell I play my ranger the same way I play my thief. Dip in and out, reset till I win.

Oh I know there are trade offs, I’m just saying they aren’t enough The typical 0/30/30/10 build has the regen capable of perma stealthing and is extremely strong. You’d expect the class when trading CnD for 5 init in favor of needing to BP+HS for 7 would sacrifice more damage then it does. My argument is that it should, but the reason it doesn’t is because initiative regen isn’t properly balanced for the class as a whole regardless of spec.

But like I said, I’m not stupid enough to think you can adjust skills and traits to remove the initiative regen and expect the class to still be playable without dramatic improvements elsewhere. I just don’t want to see knee jerk changes to player complaints when all that will do is move them over to the next thing to complain about instead of just resolving the root problem.

Nikkinella.8254:

Daendur.2357:

the cost i negligible … and no, you don’t have to put it down and wait for a thief to come … it’s a counter to d/p build, can be placed in combat using stability or after having bursted the thief.

It is a viable counter to a build that rely too much on stealth.
You don’t want to use it? It’s your choice but it doesn’t imply stealth disruptor doesn’t exist or it doesn’t work.

The very existence of those traps are proof of how OP thief is. It’s proof that other classes have no inherent way of countering stealth. You NEED to buy a trap and waste karma and supplies and badges in order to actually counter it. There is no way to remove stealth from a thief without those traps. And you see nothing wrong with that? With the fact it’s the only class that you need to buy an item to actively counter its class mechanics. Why not just give other classes a skill that causes reveal? thief wouldn’t need to be changed or and other classes have an actual counter to it.

Wait, it’s not the only way to deal with stealth …. you can always L2P.
It’s just the easy way.

Daendur.2357:

Nikkinella.8254:

Daendur.2357:

the cost i negligible … and no, you don’t have to put it down and wait for a thief to come … it’s a counter to d/p build, can be placed in combat using stability or after having bursted the thief.

It is a viable counter to a build that rely too much on stealth.
You don’t want to use it? It’s your choice but it doesn’t imply stealth disruptor doesn’t exist or it doesn’t work.

The very existence of those traps are proof of how OP thief is. It’s proof that other classes have no inherent way of countering stealth. You NEED to buy a trap and waste karma and supplies and badges in order to actually counter it. There is no way to remove stealth from a thief without those traps. And you see nothing wrong with that? With the fact it’s the only class that you need to buy an item to actively counter its class mechanics. Why not just give other classes a skill that causes reveal? thief wouldn’t need to be changed or and other classes have an actual counter to it.

Wait, it’s not the only way to deal with stealth …. you can always L2P.
It’s just the easy way.

This.

Nikkinella.8254:

The very existence of those traps are proof of how OP thief is. It’s proof that other classes have no inherent way of countering stealth.

Stealth traps were added as a counter to stop a perma-stealthing Thief from reviving a Mesmer inside a tower/keep. Not as a counter for getting ganked (although it can be used as such).

Please keep the confirmation bias to a minimum.

Renxian.6982:

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots).

No they dont! This is flat out a lie.

They can pick up both Shadow’s Rejuv. (healing in stealth) aswell as Shadow Embrace (cure cond. every 3sec in stealth, ticks the moment you enter stealth), or choose blind on stealth instead of either of these two.
You would still be able to pick up more then enough Initiative Regeneration to perma-stealth.

infact the only thing needed to get perma-stealth is 10pts in Shadow Arts for Infusion of Shadows, and 20points into Acrobatics for 2initiative regen every 10sec. Pick up Infiltrator’s Signet, which also works as a great escape skill/stunbreaker.

And presto you got all the initiative regen you need to perma-stealth with Dagger/Pistol.
Aswell as 40 unused Traitpoints, 2 open skillslots, and 1 major trait in Acrobatics you havent picked yet. (Most get Stealth when taking falling damage for this trait slot, could also get 50% speed while in stealth.)

Daendur.2357:

Nikkinella.8254:

Daendur.2357:

the cost i negligible … and no, you don’t have to put it down and wait for a thief to come … it’s a counter to d/p build, can be placed in combat using stability or after having bursted the thief.

It is a viable counter to a build that rely too much on stealth.
You don’t want to use it? It’s your choice but it doesn’t imply stealth disruptor doesn’t exist or it doesn’t work.

The very existence of those traps are proof of how OP thief is. It’s proof that other classes have no inherent way of countering stealth. You NEED to buy a trap and waste karma and supplies and badges in order to actually counter it. There is no way to remove stealth from a thief without those traps. And you see nothing wrong with that? With the fact it’s the only class that you need to buy an item to actively counter its class mechanics. Why not just give other classes a skill that causes reveal? thief wouldn’t need to be changed or and other classes have an actual counter to it.

Wait, it’s not the only way to deal with stealth …. you can always L2P.
It’s just the easy way.

It’s funny how whenever anyone brings up a valid point about how Op thieves are the same response is always L2P. Thieves can steal boons off of classes tat spam boons as a means of countering them. THERE IS NO WAY FOR OTHER CLASSES TO REMOVE STEALTH! that was my whole point in saying that. No other class has any active counters for stealth. That is a fact that you can’t deny.

Everyone should drop a stealth trap when confronted with a thief, 1 of 2 things will always happen, they run away or die.

I hate thieves. you can easily macro the skills to fit 90% of any situation in WvW

BUT I’m TELLING YOU Stealth traps are freaking hilarious tools to use when a thief is around you, try it

Atherakhia.4086:

Renxian.6982:

Atherakhia.4086:

I honestly don’t understand the complaint. While I do find stealth to be powerful, it doesn’t elevate the Thief class above Rangers, Elementalists, Guardians, or Mesmers in overall roaming power as I consider each to be equally powerful.

I honestly have no problem with perma stealth in this game or any other as most games with a stealthing class actually do have perma stealth. Now clearly in this game it’s one of those things that probably wasn’t planned, but my only complaint with perma stealth the way it’s implemented in this game is really the fact that it doesn’t trade off any real damage for all the added utility perma stealth provides.

Earlier in the thread I half-heatedly mentioned replacing the leap finisher as that’s the lazy man’s choice to resolve this issue. The root of the problem is very clearly the iniatitive regen system in this game though.

But I’m concerned that a lot of people who argue for nerfing things like weapon synergy for a class simply aren’t experienced enough with the class to fully comprehend just how far reaching their changes could end up being.

Initiative regen needs to be fixed, but I’m not stupid enough to think they can do it without dramatic improvements elsewhere. It’s the same with adjusting just the stealth aspect of the class. This class is not built very well and stealth is so powerful that it hides the legitimate issues with this class.

To nerf one would need enormous buffs in other areas.

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots). Dropping all that utility for misdirection and the simple fact that instead of simply moving erratically and leaving people feel the need to blow every cooldown they have trying to hit a thief that is doing 0 damage.

No one is denying that stealth is inherently powerful, but it’s not the end all be all of wvw roaming and it’s not even the easiest way to reset a fight. I reset fights all the time on my ranger and it’s all of lvl 35. If anything my ranger is better at it because it a can tank a ton of damage and regen mid fight on top of being able to reset at will. Hell I play my ranger the same way I play my thief. Dip in and out, reset till I win.

Oh I know there are trade offs, I’m just saying they aren’t enough The typical 0/30/30/10 build has the regen capable of perma stealthing and is extremely strong. You’d expect the class when trading CnD for 5 init in favor of needing to BP+HS for 7 would sacrifice more damage then it does. My argument is that it should, but the reason it doesn’t is because initiative regen isn’t properly balanced for the class as a whole regardless of spec.

But like I said, I’m not stupid enough to think you can adjust skills and traits to remove the initiative regen and expect the class to still be playable without dramatic improvements elsewhere. I just don’t want to see knee jerk changes to player complaints when all that will do is move them over to the next thing to complain about instead of just resolving the root problem.

I certainly appreciate that you are at least objective in regards to the thief class, most people simply put on the tinfoil hats and claim we should be destroyed completely. I don’t necessarily agree with your viewpoint that there isn’t enough sacrifice for the stealth heavy builds (which I don’t even run because I refuse to give up the utility and survivability the other traits give me). On a low health pool class giving up a chunk of condi removal or health regen is a huge sacrifice. I don’t think the tradeoff was meant to be damage personally (and they still give up some damage). They are also extremely BS reliant because their entire build is centered around not being targetable. With less condition cleanse or hp regen or blinds they rely almost entirely on not being seen, which means less use of non stealth-field utility weapon skills.

Plus we’d probably be more receptive if ANET would fix all the things they have broken while nerfing us. Steal/Shadowstep/Infiltrators arrow/ Sword 2 skill all behave erratically, sometimes going on cd/burning initiative without moving you at all. The weird pre-cast delay many thieves have noticed since the big balance patch (imagine skill lag except…always) causing skills to sometimes cast painfully slowly. Or the newest, and my personal favorite, sometimes our stealth skills the two it’s been specifically mentioned for are CnD and SR, will simply give you revealed (QQers dream here) for no reason at all (and no I don’t mean getting knocked out of SR or attacking etc).

Terrahero.9358:

Renxian.6982:

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots).

No they dont! This is flat out a lie.

They can pick up both Shadow’s Rejuv. (healing in stealth) aswell as Shadow Embrace (cure cond. every 3sec in stealth, ticks the moment you enter stealth), or choose blind on stealth instead of either of these two.
You would still be able to pick up more then enough Initiative Regeneration to perma-stealth.

infact the only thing needed to get perma-stealth is 10pts in Shadow Arts for Infusion of Shadows, and 20points into Acrobatics for 2initiative regen every 10sec. Pick up Infiltrator’s Signet, which also works as a great escape skill/stunbreaker.

And presto you got all the initiative regen you need to perma-stealth with Dagger/Pistol.
Aswell as 40 unused Traitpoints, 2 open skillslots, and 1 major trait in Acrobatics you havent picked yet. (Most get Stealth when taking falling damage for this trait slot, could also get 50% speed while in stealth.)

I know all the combinations to achieve perma stealth (and there is at least 1 more that I can think of off the top of my head). All of them have sacrifices.

Those 40 remaining trait points and burned utility slot would mean you are giving up some of the following.

Critical Damage, Critical Chance, Toughness, Healing Power, Increased Damage when initiative is over 6, Hidden Killer (100% crit on attacks from stealth), Executioner (Increased Damage to targets sub 50% hp), Shadow’s Rejuvenation (healing while stealthed), Shadow’s Embrace (condition removal in stealth), Cloaked in Shadow (Stealthing Blinds Nearby Enemies), Signet of Shadows (25% MS) or a utility skill (Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder, Shadowstep).

At the low low cost of a big chunk of your utility/synergy, you too can troll stupid people!

Let’s talk frankly, stealth is not the problem. Nobody QQ about p/p thieves, and they have access to many stealth skills. So, stealth by itself can not be the problem.
Thieves are not the top3 classes in duels, are not desired in zerg MvM and almost avoided in PvE.
It is a hit And run class, that’s all. Nerfing stealth would be like killing a whole class.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Nikkinella.8254:

Daendur.2357:

Nikkinella.8254:

Daendur.2357:

the cost i negligible … and no, you don’t have to put it down and wait for a thief to come … it’s a counter to d/p build, can be placed in combat using stability or after having bursted the thief.

It is a viable counter to a build that rely too much on stealth.
You don’t want to use it? It’s your choice but it doesn’t imply stealth disruptor doesn’t exist or it doesn’t work.

The very existence of those traps are proof of how OP thief is. It’s proof that other classes have no inherent way of countering stealth. You NEED to buy a trap and waste karma and supplies and badges in order to actually counter it. There is no way to remove stealth from a thief without those traps. And you see nothing wrong with that? With the fact it’s the only class that you need to buy an item to actively counter its class mechanics. Why not just give other classes a skill that causes reveal? thief wouldn’t need to be changed or and other classes have an actual counter to it.

Wait, it’s not the only way to deal with stealth …. you can always L2P.
It’s just the easy way.

It’s funny how whenever anyone brings up a valid point about how Op thieves are the same response is always L2P. Thieves can steal boons off of classes tat spam boons as a means of countering them. THERE IS NO WAY FOR OTHER CLASSES TO REMOVE STEALTH! that was my whole point in saying that. No other class has any active counters for stealth. That is a fact that you can’t deny.

They can’t justify a skill that removes stealth, because there’s only one set out of the four that can consistantly stealth for more then 4 seconds. They should have done what they said they were gonna do and make all stealth end in revealed, and make it so leaps can’t stack stealth.

That could work. I’d also be fine with a sigil 60% chance on crit to cause revealed on whatever you hit. They do have sigils that have a 60% chance to remove boons, so why not? It’s situational just like the boon removal sigils that barely anyone uses. And you’re keeping yourself from using a more useful sigil by having something like that just to deal with thieves. But I for one wouldn’t mind keeping an extra weapon with one of those in my inventory for when I come across a trolling thief who just wont go away and keeps coming back and being a nuisance.

XII.9401:

Gotta congratulate the Anet team on the stellar design of the class. They will be remembered in the MMO community for years to come as the guys who came up with the most broken stealth class in history.

Oh by the way..it was not what they intended initially. Takes a special dev to kitten up that much.

This exact statement has been said about every single Stealth class in the history of MMOs. People naturally fear what they can’t see, so invisibility is without a doubt the biggest mental crippler in the gaming industry.

Nikkinella.8254:

That could work. I’d also be fine with a sigil 60% chance on crit to cause revealed on whatever you hit. They do have sigils that have a 60% chance to remove boons, so why not? It’s situational just like the boon removal sigils that barely anyone uses. And you’re keeping yourself from using a more useful sigil by having something like that just to deal with thieves. But I for one wouldn’t mind keeping an extra weapon with one of those in my inventory for when I come across a trolling thief who just wont go away and keeps coming back and being a nuisance.

There is already an item that causes 100% chance to cause reveal. It’s called stealth disruptor trap. Use it and enjoy it. Stop the QQ.

Excalibur.9748:

Nikkinella.8254:

That could work. I’d also be fine with a sigil 60% chance on crit to cause revealed on whatever you hit. They do have sigils that have a 60% chance to remove boons, so why not? It’s situational just like the boon removal sigils that barely anyone uses. And you’re keeping yourself from using a more useful sigil by having something like that just to deal with thieves. But I for one wouldn’t mind keeping an extra weapon with one of those in my inventory for when I come across a trolling thief who just wont go away and keeps coming back and being a nuisance.

There is already an item that causes 100% chance to cause reveal. It’s caused stealth disruptor trap. Use it and enjoy it. Stop the QQ.

those are not reliable and in the 4 seconds it takes to set it the thief will either run away or stab you causing you to waste the supplies and the trap not to be set. And any thief with half a brain wont step on it. If they step on it while not stealthed, it still triggers but doesn’t cause revealed. No, i’d rather have the sigil or a trait, or utility skill that does it.

Renxian.6982:

Terrahero.9358:

Renxian.6982:

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots).

No they dont! This is flat out a lie.

They can pick up both Shadow’s Rejuv. (healing in stealth) aswell as Shadow Embrace (cure cond. every 3sec in stealth, ticks the moment you enter stealth), or choose blind on stealth instead of either of these two.
You would still be able to pick up more then enough Initiative Regeneration to perma-stealth.

infact the only thing needed to get perma-stealth is 10pts in Shadow Arts for Infusion of Shadows, and 20points into Acrobatics for 2initiative regen every 10sec. Pick up Infiltrator’s Signet, which also works as a great escape skill/stunbreaker.

And presto you got all the initiative regen you need to perma-stealth with Dagger/Pistol.
Aswell as 40 unused Traitpoints, 2 open skillslots, and 1 major trait in Acrobatics you havent picked yet. (Most get Stealth when taking falling damage for this trait slot, could also get 50% speed while in stealth.)

I know all the combinations to achieve perma stealth (and there is at least 1 more that I can think of off the top of my head). All of them have sacrifices.

Those 40 remaining trait points and burned utility slot would mean you are giving up some of the following.

Critical Damage, Critical Chance, Toughness, Healing Power, Increased Damage when initiative is over 6, Hidden Killer (100% crit on attacks from stealth), Executioner (Increased Damage to targets sub 50% hp), Shadow’s Rejuvenation (healing while stealthed), Shadow’s Embrace (condition removal in stealth), Cloaked in Shadow (Stealthing Blinds Nearby Enemies), Signet of Shadows (25% MS) or a utility skill (Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder, Shadowstep).

At the low low cost of a big chunk of your utility/synergy, you too can troll stupid people!

Big list, untill it becomes clear enough you can still get most of the stuff in that list. Executioner and Hidden killer are mutually exclusive anyway.
You make it almost sound like you could get all those things. Even if you dont spec for perma-stealth you’re going to have to choose between those things on your list…

Also you’re overplaying the Blind on Stealth thing a bit. Great for d/d since you get into Stealth near enemies. Great to mitigate their next swing, or attempt at CC.
But for D/P you leap through a smokefield, generally AWAY from enemies. Far less usefull trait because its not as neccesary.

The REAL cost is 2 major traitslots and 1 skillslot. One of them going down a traitline that is extremely useful anyway, its where the condition removal and healing in stealth is, aswell as extented stealth duration. And the many stacks of Might from spamming Stealth so much.

You can get enough initiative regen to still have plenty of traitpoints and skillslots left to pick up both damage and survivability. Its a build that still hits very hard, and can pretty much not die.

Nikkinella.8254:

Excalibur.9748:

Nikkinella.8254:

That could work. I’d also be fine with a sigil 60% chance on crit to cause revealed on whatever you hit. They do have sigils that have a 60% chance to remove boons, so why not? It’s situational just like the boon removal sigils that barely anyone uses. And you’re keeping yourself from using a more useful sigil by having something like that just to deal with thieves. But I for one wouldn’t mind keeping an extra weapon with one of those in my inventory for when I come across a trolling thief who just wont go away and keeps coming back and being a nuisance.

There is already an item that causes 100% chance to cause reveal. It’s caused stealth disruptor trap. Use it and enjoy it. Stop the QQ.

those are not reliable and in the 4 seconds it takes to set it the thief will either run away or stab you causing you to waste the supplies and the trap not to be set. And any thief with half a brain wont step on it. If they step on it while not stealthed, it still triggers but doesn’t cause revealed. No, i’d rather have the sigil or a trait, or utility skill that does it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_Disruptor_Trap

If you hit a thief that’s not in stealth, he/she will still get the revealed buff. It’s good enough to deal with thieves, have you even tried using one?

Renxian,

Maybe I didn’t properly explain my point. I play a thief as a main btw, so let me get that out of the way. What I was trying to say is that Dagger/Pistol (the only real way to get perma stealth) gains an enormous amount of utility (increased stealth up time which results in condition removal and regen) and sacrifices next to no damage. The reason it doesn’t sacrifice much damage is because the initiative regen is so completely out of control in this game.

D/P kills by using backstab, but where a d/d build enters stealth via CnD for 6init, D/P must use BP+HS for 8 total init. So you would expect this to result in a larger damage reduction than it does considering the D/P set allows for the additional utility because it can stealth more reliably (don’t need to hit) and BP is a pulsing AE blind. But since initiative regen is so out of what, the 2 weapon sets do about the same damage which ends up alienating the d/d build because it no longer really has any value.

If initiative regen were balanced across the board, common sense would say D/P should do less damage because it gains the AE blind and easy access to stealth.

I had tried to quote but I messed it up

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

No-stealth Thief saying hi! I’ll challenge you to make a thief and see how EZ mode it is… The most squishy class in the game – by far. We are a profession designed for one thing – eliminating our enemy, and that fast.

Guardians? I created one, and I eat thieves for breakfast… Guardian is imo the easiest profession in this game. Never have PvP, WvW and PvE been so easy -_-

Geiir.7603:

Jscull.2514:

EZ mode class- allows bad players to feel like they can compete.

Put the same player on a warrior/guardian, and see how good they are in open field without stealth. TERRIBLE.

No-stealth Thief saying hi! I’ll challenge you to make a thief and see how EZ mode it is… The most squishy class in the game – by far. We are a profession designed for one thing – eliminating our enemy, and that fast.

Guardians? I created one, and I eat thieves for breakfast… Guardian is imo the easiest profession in this game. Never have PvP, WvW and PvE been so easy -_-

Guardian and warrior are the EZ-mode classes; no-stealth thief is hard-mode, I’m sure he hasn’t played one to know though!

All you thieves out there now know what it felt like to be a mesmer back before the confusion nerf, or before the portal nerf Just take your beatings, hope anet doesn’t wack your class in the nuts with the nerf-bat like confusion, and just move on From personal experience, posting on these threads saying your class is perfectly balanced isn’t exactly making anything better, eh? :P

Handin.4032:

All you thieves out there now know what it felt like to be a mesmer back before the confusion nerf, or before the portal nerf Just take your beatings, hope anet doesn’t wack your class in the nuts with the nerf-bat like confusion, and just move on From personal experience, posting on these threads saying your class is perfectly balanced isn’t exactly making anything better, eh? :P

It’s not perfectly fine, it’s the worst class or one of the worst classes in the game according to the community and needs quite a few buffs!

Terrahero.9358:

Renxian.6982:

Terrahero.9358:

Renxian.6982:

There are trade offs. In order to be able to consistently stay in stealth a thief needs to trait initiative regen. By traiting initiative regen they sacrifice condition cleansing, healing in stealth, and blind on stealth (or utility slots).

No they dont! This is flat out a lie.

They can pick up both Shadow’s Rejuv. (healing in stealth) aswell as Shadow Embrace (cure cond. every 3sec in stealth, ticks the moment you enter stealth), or choose blind on stealth instead of either of these two.
You would still be able to pick up more then enough Initiative Regeneration to perma-stealth.

infact the only thing needed to get perma-stealth is 10pts in Shadow Arts for Infusion of Shadows, and 20points into Acrobatics for 2initiative regen every 10sec. Pick up Infiltrator’s Signet, which also works as a great escape skill/stunbreaker.

And presto you got all the initiative regen you need to perma-stealth with Dagger/Pistol.
Aswell as 40 unused Traitpoints, 2 open skillslots, and 1 major trait in Acrobatics you havent picked yet. (Most get Stealth when taking falling damage for this trait slot, could also get 50% speed while in stealth.)

I know all the combinations to achieve perma stealth (and there is at least 1 more that I can think of off the top of my head). All of them have sacrifices.

Those 40 remaining trait points and burned utility slot would mean you are giving up some of the following.

Critical Damage, Critical Chance, Toughness, Healing Power, Increased Damage when initiative is over 6, Hidden Killer (100% crit on attacks from stealth), Executioner (Increased Damage to targets sub 50% hp), Shadow’s Rejuvenation (healing while stealthed), Shadow’s Embrace (condition removal in stealth), Cloaked in Shadow (Stealthing Blinds Nearby Enemies), Signet of Shadows (25% MS) or a utility skill (Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder, Shadowstep).

At the low low cost of a big chunk of your utility/synergy, you too can troll stupid people!

Big list, untill it becomes clear enough you can still get most of the stuff in that list. Executioner and Hidden killer are mutually exclusive anyway.
You make it almost sound like you could get all those things. Even if you dont spec for perma-stealth you’re going to have to choose between those things on your list…

Also you’re overplaying the Blind on Stealth thing a bit. Great for d/d since you get into Stealth near enemies. Great to mitigate their next swing, or attempt at CC.
But for D/P you leap through a smokefield, generally AWAY from enemies. Far less usefull trait because its not as neccesary.

The REAL cost is 2 major traitslots and 1 skillslot. One of them going down a traitline that is extremely useful anyway, its where the condition removal and healing in stealth is, aswell as extented stealth duration. And the many stacks of Might from spamming Stealth so much.

You can get enough initiative regen to still have plenty of traitpoints and skillslots left to pick up both damage and survivability. Its a build that still hits very hard, and can pretty much not die.

With the exception of the two Grandmaster traits that are mutually exclusive I actually CAN get all of those other things at the same time.

Hence me listing them as things you would have to give up.

The extra 10 points you are suggesting in acro have to come from somewhere. you are either sacrificing toughness, healing power, cloaked in shadow or shadow’s embrace, and Shadow Rejuvenation in SA or Precision, Crit Damage, and Hidden Killer/Executioner in Critical Strikes. I understand that you feel thieves should give up more for the build, but you should at least have all information on hand before calling others liars.

The blind on stealth is great even for D/P (which is what I run) Blind fields in general are great up close, and SR being a big pulsing blind is incredibly useful. It’s also handy when say, I stealth to wipe conditions like immobilize, which are often applied in melee range.

Handin.4032:

All you thieves out there now know what it felt like to be a mesmer back before the confusion nerf, or before the portal nerf Just take your beatings, hope anet doesn’t wack your class in the nuts with the nerf-bat like confusion, and just move on From personal experience, posting on these threads saying your class is perfectly balanced isn’t exactly making anything better, eh? :P

Except we don’t punish all classes in a massive area with brutal damage for doing all actions offensive or defense except movement. While I agree confusion got whacked too hard, you know kitten well it was OP af in WvW group fights pre nerf. Making an entire zerg choose between being a spectator or killing themselves through action while they simultaneously attempt to survive AND deal with your entire team is pretty obviously over the top. There was no skill level at which confusion Mesmer wasn’t crazy powerful.

I do however think a 50% damage reduction was way too drastic a first step. That takes a lot for me to say too, because I freaking HATE mesmers.