Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone,
I’ve been trying to think of a few ways to spice up WvW,and to bring some much
needed newness to this game mode. I’ve seen many similar proposals to this, and
I’ve added my own spin to it.

Before i dive into this solution I’ll state a few givens with WvW.

1. Matches are inherently unfair. This is caused by coverage/population differences, bandwagoning, and the steady migration of hardcore WvW community up to T1-3.

2. Play has become predicable and stale, we see the same tactics (and people) every day.

To solve this I’ve developed this highly improbable, but conceptually awesome
idea a bit.

Introduce 6 new borderlands which offer varrying levels of defensive and
offensive advantage.

For these maps I propose using surface and texture designs
that already exist in the game. The hope for this plan is that a server as many
as 4 ranks below you could at least be given a fighting chance against a
superior server.
(coverage, guilds, whatever. under no circumstances should you loose by 100k or more unless you literally do not show up all week.)

Here is the rundown of the style maps I propose:

Grasslands (Current map)

Jade,
Desert(perhaps with branded elements too),
Mountain,
Asuran City,
Jungle
Volcanic

Grasslands ( Current Borderlands, no defensive advantage)
The Grasslands are our current borderlands. They are large and have
sprawling open spaces for zergs to move and for epic battle to take place. The
map consists of a maze of ruins, with rivers crisscrossing the map which are one
of the only ways to move through the borderland (mostly) undetected. This map is
our benchmark, and provides us with the standard on which we will guage other maps.

1.Jade (no defensive advantage)
The Jade borderland would use surface and architectural features from
the Jade maw fractal. This borderland’s unique feature (instead of rivers) would
be dual layers, similar to how EoTM has multiple layers. I imagined this working
by having several (fixed or randomized) 1000 unit square sections that ascend
and descend between layers at random. I imagine this would make for some pretty
interesting ZvZ and map politics, as a zerg you’re chasing could suddenly drop
below you onto another plane of the map and they can move without being scouted
for a short period of time. This dynamic of the jade elevators would allow for
some interesting siege placement as well. Imagine building trebs in the lower
level, getting elevated to the top for a suprise! 4 treb assault on a wall
until that elevator drops again. You could also make ballista traps and wait
for a zerg to pop up through the ground. The options are wide open with this
format.

2.Desert (No Defensive Advantage)
The Desert borderland would be the open field fighter’s dream map. These
maps would have dunes instead of cliffs, and cave/caverns in lieu of the rivers
that exist on the current borderlands. The Desert borderland could be styled
like the badlands in EotM. What could differentiate this map could be a giant
caldera in the center of the map which contains: the Bloodlust ruins, entrances
and exits to the caverns that cross the map, and a large, Obsidian Sanctum style
arena in the center. For those who played guild wars 1, imagine the garrison
being built into Augury Rock
(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060904201028/gw_/images/b/ba/Augury_Rock_(Explorable_Area)_1000x800.jpg)

3. Foothills / Mountains (Strong Terrain Defensive Advantage)
The Foothill and Mountain map is to deliver a substantial defensive
advantage. Terrain in this borderland would consist of mountainous terrain with
glacial valleys (Think Yosemite or Lornars Pass). Conceptually, this map would
have narrow, winding paths which would serve as extended choke points to allow
lower population servers to have more opportunities to fend off a larger
opponent. I imagine this map as having more prominent elevation differences than
we see on existing borderlands. The Defending server holds the high ground,
which gives them opportunity to siege the winding paths and passes through the
mountains to the keeps. While it would be more difficult for an attacker to
cover ground ( until they manage to make it to the high point on the map, being
the garrison/citadel) The height advantaged offered to the defenders would give
them the ability to respond to threats to their structures faster, as they could
descend down a mountainside like a sea of goats, while their enemies come up the
incline. The combination of these entirely map design based advantages could
significantly improve the ability of outmatched servers to hold their own.

4. Asuran Megatropolis (Medium Structure Defensive Advantage)
The Asuran Megatropolis map would have a medium defensive advantage.
Where the Foothill/Mountain map uses Map design to create the Asuran megacity
map uses Structure Design to deliver the advantage.Exactly what this means is up
for debate but I’ll try and paint a picture of what I intend for this, although
EoTM probably has some excellent defensive design that I have overlooked because
I don’t ever play in EoTM except to fear fools off the sides with a necro wall.
A keep in the Asuran Meatropolis map would have three floors – The outer gates
and destructible walls would be on the bottom floor. Attacking servers would
need to breach from the bottom, and fight their way up ramps to reach the second floor, with the inner gates and inner destructible walls to reach the lords
room. The Third floor of these keeps would be hexagonal skyways (floor surface
design to look like the floor for the boss fight of the Thaumanova Reactor
fractal) which are routes into and out of the keep for whoever owns the keep at
the time. The external Skyway entrances/exits are marked by the doorway
“portals” that we use to get into and out of towers that we own. For defensive
purposes the Skyway should allow for Arrow cart defense, but no other siege. It
should also be too high for a player to cast down from, and the entrances to the
skyways should be a good distance (at least 1000 units) from the outer gates(
this is because it doesn’t actually matter if your keep is easier to defend if
you can’t get in cause of the mega blob and its peripheries.). To counter the skyway, those carts on the skyway could be countered by an arrow cart on the ground on the second floor. I imagined these Skyways extending out of the keeps, covering about 1/4 of the distance between the three keeps on the borderland. ( If anyone from Yaks Bend [yes only Yaks Bend] has better ideas on how to design more easily defendable structures than what I have here, i would love to hear your ideas)

5.Jungle (Strong Terrain Offensive Advantage)
Welcome to the Jungle baby! This map would draw inspiration from the
jungle-like joining section between caledon forest and Brisban wildlands. The
offensive advantage granted by this map, would be reduced visibility. For a
server that is out of their tier, they are constantly thwarted by scouts and the
existing map design makes a true stealth attack against a more-prepared opponent
very difficult. On this Jungle Borderland, the topography would be defined by
heavily foliaged rolling hills and ridges. Where the rivers of the present day
maps exist, you could have VERY DENSE jungle. In order to spot an enemy zerg
moving through this very dense jungle, you need to be in there with them (This
is up for debate as well, the only “must have” for this would be that you cannot
see into the desnse jungle from above). I imagine about 30% of the map covered
with this “Very dense” foliage. This would nullify the height advantage that
scouts in towers and keeps hold on the present day maps. Preparedness is easily
half of defending in your borderlands, and reducing a defender’s ability to
track the motion of enemies through the borderland would be a great stride
forward for smaller servers trying to punch their big brother in the kittening
face.

6. Volcanic (Medium Structure Offensive Advantage)
In my head, the Volcanic Borderland is a cross of Mount Maelstrom and
the mines of Moria from LoTR. The Borderland could have dredge and molten
alliance elements spread throughout, and the styling could also be drawn from
the SE dungeon. Defenders have 2 “Bay” style keeps, which are a tad easier to
capture when heavily defended (In my opinion) The overall topography of the
borderland would situate the Garrison at the lowest altitude. Similar to the
mountain map, but the average grade from the Border Waypoints to the garrison
should probably not be greater than 5% in order to keep the attackers from
holding such a height advantage that they can’t be counter-trebbed. I imagine
assaulting this borderland to be like descending into the crater of an active
volcano (Like in the fractal). I’m not entirely sure how else to give an
offensive advantage on a map like this. If any T2 server players want to chime
in on what they think could help them face up to a solid T1 server, either PM me
or comment below! Imagine if the keeps had lava moats.

okay. That’s the end of my idea.

I’ve seen some other posters come up with great ideas, If you’ve made a map
suggestion post, PM me with a link to your thread and i’ll edit this post to
include them here:

Underwater map: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/How-an-Underwater-Map-could-be-Implemented/first#post4107568

TL;DR

Introduce 6 new borderlands which rotate weekly, and offer varying levels of
defensive and offensive advantage to the server that needs it.

Sounds cool to me. I would enjoy seeing something like this as well. Throw in some dark night effects (think snowblind fractal) and that would top the cake for me.

The plan would definitely spice things up for WvW, but it wouldn’t happen since it involves A-Net actually having to work.

It would be amazing if they did only half of it, but I fear we will get nothing new for WvW.

If they ever come up with something it will be totally unexpected.

One of Anet’s reasons for not being able to introduce maps faster is because they have to be balanced. Well heck, not if you purposely unbalance them!

Its actually a great idea. What are two of the biggest complaints about WvW? Staleness and imbalance. This takes care of both.

If they could calculate the degree of imbalance in the match before assigning maps that would be great. Pitting a low ranked server against a high one – give the low server the most defensive map and the high server the most offensive map.

If it speeds up map production and helps with balance I’m all for it.

(I don’t like Asuran architecture though. I absolutely hate Rata Sum, can’t find my way around there for anything lol. Make it a human city like Divinity’s Reach.)

Anet could learn some things from DAoC.

It also had 3 borderlands and was a 3 sided warfare.

Would be nice to have great environmental differences , some terrain changes, unique Mobs for each BL and Rain/Hailstorms/Mist,Fog.

This i believe will not take too much time from Anet map designers.

Thanks for the link to my thread, first off!

Ok I want to have a quick reply to each of the maps you’ve had a stab at, and give a few suggestions?

Why aren’t there a greater racial influence on each map? I mean, the races are such a big part of the concept of gw2, add some influence!

1) Jade

I think that this is a really solid idea, the only problem here is falling damage. Can I suggest that these platforms move fairly slowly initially when they do shift to give people a chance to jump down/up on to them and join their team.

Furthermore, the ‘platforms’ should function similar to the wurm tunnel in EotM. There should be 3 separate groupings of these platforms which can glow their colours when they are ‘owned’ by the respective servers. A centralised control panel could exist in the centre of the map, in open world (perhaps above a very large tower?), where players can manipulate the platforms that their server owns. This means commanders will send out a party to not only secure their own jade tower but also to camp the other two control towers. When your server ‘owns’ the correct objectives, your tower will have full functionality, allowing a player to manipulate the platforms. If you own nothing, the tower is useless. The object is to first gain a few objectives to gain control of platforms, then send a squad to secure your tower, then communicate with your squad via TS to manipulate the platforms.

This map should be allocated to the weakest server, so that they can have a terrain advantage.

Make this a Human area with mainly human and Canthan influences.

2) Desert
Open world ftw! I have no criticisms for this, only that there should be absolutely NO terrain blocks whatsoever to facilitate summons and possibly, moveable siege? Potential to implement a tank style siege weapon? Have the objectives be open (as in, no walls, just chokepoints), and far apart. That way, servers will be forced into open-world combat. Furthermore, give this to the strongest server, so that they have a harder time defending despite their numbers.

Make this a Charr area! Charr architecture (have you been to the black citadel? Much neovictorian, such steampunk)

3)Foothills/mountains
I think the best way to implement this would be actually more like the cliffs of Ha Long Bay and china (shout out to the new Chinese players), but in a western style, with lots of vertical climbs to get to objectives. Whiles this will be annoying at first, perhaps, between your captured objectives, we can have many bridges like in EotM (an underused mechanic) which require much more supply to build and can be destroyed more easily. This will be highly defensible INITIALLY, but with some good strategy, the opposing server can overcome the high cliffs.

Make this a Norn Area! Norn Nps, Architecture, with really oversized buildings etc.

4)Asuran Megatropolis
Bit of a lore problem here, but not impossible to make canon.
From what I understand, this is a MASSIVE building, not necessarily a map? However, this is a really amazing amazing way to implement a maze into one of the floors. Furthermore, add our ability to create walls in this maze, so we can either knock it down, or a small group can go through and recreate the whole thing. Put some PvE elements into the maze and presto, you have some really difficult terrain to navigate. This would be really fun and really tough to go through, but this really reminds me of the maze in the halloween event which was tough but fun.

Obviously, this is a very very Asuran area.

5)Jungle
I have no suggestions for this, except that many jungles IRL will slow down larger goups by their very nature. Perhaps this can be designed with roaming builds in mind? Guerilla warfare so to speak? I like the idea of the objectives being in open spaces which you have to venture out into (possibly revealing your position) in order to capture. The dense jungle hides enemies, which you will have to be ready for.

Make this a Sylvari map, with Sylvari NPCs and architecture!

6)Volcanic
Having a height disadvantage here is pretty important. Your walls will need to be a curved shape to keep your defenders safe. I think the ‘big keeps’ in this map will probably be regularly overrun, if theyre situated lower than other keeps. Give this keep to the most successful server so they have a harder time defending it.

Variety is, after all, the spice of life

It took 18 months to get the one, single new map WvW has ever had (EoTM). That is the 18 months immediately after release, the period when changes are most likely to happen. And many strongly suspect this only happened because it was a test run for MegaServer and also served as ‘filler’ for the LivingStory.

What do you think the chances are of a single new map ever happening again? Let alone 6.

Ragnar.4257:

It took 18 months to get the one, single new map WvW has ever had (EoTM). That is the 18 months immediately after release, the period when changes are most likely to happen. And many strongly suspect this only happened because it was a test run for MegaServer and also served as ‘filler’ for the LivingStory.

What do you think the chances are of a single new map ever happening again? Let alone 6.

I stated at the beginning of my post that it was highly improbable.

That said, the chance of it getting implemented is also irrelevant.

After reading through these forums and carefully considering the problems that we ALL kitten about, I wanted to see if we could get folks to agree on a potential solution.

At the end of the day you need to ask yourself : Putting no restrictions on your list of potential solutions, What would make World Vs. World better?

for me the answer was simple – Map Diversity

Map diversity would mean that we don’t live through the same fights every day, and we could see some new and interesting tactics develop, even if the overall PPT strategy stays the same.

Map Diversity alone doesn’t cut it thought. There’s the coverage imbalances that need to be considered as well.

If we assume that coverage imbalances will not be going away, What can we give to an underdog that will make them competitive?

My answer was Terrain and Structural advantages. I didn’t just pull those out of my buttocks either, I looked at some other examples in recent history.

Consider how the Taliban have been using the mountains to hide from international efforts to capture and destroy them. Consider how the vietnamese used the jungle to their advantage in America’s Vietnam war.
Those are just some recent examples of how terrain advantages can turn the table.

Something I rather enjoy about ANET defeatists is that they never cease to not only attempt to shut down threads like this but their rather obvious lack of knowledge of business and how it runs. OF COURSE they took more than 18 months to implement a new map! The gargantuan amount of balancing, living story, feature packs, events, new weapons, new armors, new traits, new skills, all this new stuff that has happened over the past 2 ish years takes a hell of a lot of time. we don’t get to see the time it takes to make a map. Furthermore, just because it was announced 18 months after does not mean it was being developed significantly prior to announcement.

Map Diversity does a slew of things: it deliberately imbalances the maps, which in turn, actually might balance WvW. It makes new strategies. It makes new places for me and my friends to have fun. It also gives ANET the opportunity to showcase their artistic talent, this game is absolutely beautiful, why would we not want more maps?

I know this might be a bit weird, but there needs to be a server merge on the lower tiers. I play on a bottom tier server and we are empty lot of the time.

Furthermore, why not set up the Wvw map to look more like the norse Yggdrasil, and have different servers shifted through the maps, each getting the chance to play on each map at least once throughout the season. that way, they can all be scored based on their points on each map over a longer period of time.

WvW is a huge part of this game that attracts hundred upon hundreds of players.

Structured PvP gets 6 maps, now with CUSTOM ARENAS, so technically they have unlimited maps now. PvE’ers get the world map, of which i haven’t counted the numbers, including dungeons, fractals etc. WvW get…3 different maps. (cries)

Its not juts a matter of “I WANT MOAR” its actually more a matter of creating new ways to play, new places to go. As a commander, I want the challenge of leading a team through a new environment and hopefully to get totally wiped and realise thats not the way to do things hahaha.

Map diversity will definitely bring people it. It will also add value to their game, something arenanet is very good at doing so far.

Hamster, what did you think of my ideas for new WvW mechanics?

Redrex, I appreciate your enthusiasm for this idea, but some of your suggestions may be a bit too complex for a WvW implementation and you haven’t really considered the potential for abuse. Ill go through some of your suggestions:

Jade – Player controllable elevators -

I think that giving players control of this would lead to a lot of trolling. I think that the way to do this to add the most chaos to what is otherwise an equal fight (between servers) would be to either have the elevators randomly timed (within a tolerance of 10 minutes) or regularly timed.

Desert –
moveable siege ? Don’t think that will happen outside of EoTM.

Mountains
I like the idea of having destructible bridges in this area. Would give the defenders ways to buy time and force enemies to take a longer / more dangerous path.

Although I do not agree that we should have attackers trying to climb sheer cliffs. These maps still need to be zerg friendly, even if they’re intended to convey an advantage to the defenders.

Asuran Megacity
I had envisioned this as a bigger version of Rata Sum with three hubs that would be based on the three asuran colleges.

I’m not sure that a “maze” is the right way to go. As i stated earlier, these maps are still supposed to be zerg friendly, and I had intended this map to have more easily defendable structures as the mechanism for defensive advantage. (add more entrances to structures, walkways overhead, uphill climb from outer gate to inner gates, etc. )

Volcanic –
I think you’re over-estimating the height advantage that I had proposed, but Dome walls would be really cool looking.

I think that server mergers, siege discussions and other such recommendations should be saved for another time and place, we should try and focus on how to design maps that promote balance.

Looking at Glicko (Let’s not get started on the problems with glicko PLEASE)

If you’re within 100 glicko of your opponents your borderland would Randomly be:
Grasslands
Jade
Desert

If you’re more than 100 glicko over your opponent your borderland is:
Jungle <- Greater glicko difference
Volcanic <- lesser glicko difference

If you’re 100 or more glicko under your opponent, your borderland would be:
Mountain – < greater glicko difference
Megacity – < lesser glicko difference

Reading through my ideas again I may have gotten carried away hahaha.

Jade: Actually, I agree with you on this one.

Perhaps, instead, capping a specific area allows your team to view the timers on the elevators?

Desert: We have moveable siege. Its called Golems. Why not a much much bigger version, which moves slower, but which can house players inside, like a massive tank?

Obviously its not gonna always be tank warfare, but having one could be an advantage on an open map like the desert map, and tank v tank warfare would be pretty cool. Having cannons inside for multiple players would make it a great team activity. Make the tank cost a lot of sups, as well as the cannons inside cost more sups, and then go zerg around the map.

Mountains:
I was thinking more like tunnels inside the mountains to get up, or winding pathways alongside them, and bridges.

Asuran Megacity:

The maze like idea would follow similarly to the halloween maze, which was for most intents and purposes a fairly symmetrical one. This is pretty cool for zerg warfare, isn’kitten you get very tangible ground gained when you cover a maze.

Volcanic:
This is pretty much fleshed out hahaha i dont think i need to add to this

Red I like your suggestions.

The question now is:

Would this system prevent the 14 weeks of stagnation that some servers like SF/ET/FC, EBay/AR/BP or BG/JQ/SoR have all experienced?

A more general question, What do people want more? Varied matchups, purposefully imbalanced maps to give underdogs an advantage? Just new ground to fight on and new keeps to siege?

I think there’s some combination of those three things that WvW has been craving.

In this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/How-hard-would-extra-maps-be/page/2#post4118673

We have feedback on how difficult it is to create a map from scratch – but, what about re-skinning the existing maps, and altering the topography to fit the new skins a little better?

We appreciate that developing new maps is very difficult, but we’re basically crying for some change. Is there a "Map Design " toolkit that you could opensource to us like in Starcraft?

It isn’t a perfect solution, but it could be a great place to start.

the thread may be older but nonetheless i want to say that i fully support your proposal, Hamster

@OP:

I like the ideas, although it took the WvW dev team over a year to introduce color commander tags. How long do you think it would be to implement what you said?

*Edit: Someone pointed out to me that the color tags was more for PvE, so the WvW dev team might not have been involved. Scary.

style.6173:

@OP:

I like the ideas, although it took the WvW dev team over a year to introduce color commander tags. How long do you think it would be to implement what you said?

*Edit: Someone pointed out to me that the color tags was more for PvE, so the WvW dev team might not have been involved. Scary.

I’ll say it again, it’s not really relevant that this plan isnt likely to be implemented. It’s more an exercise in creativity in finding a solution that would meet the desires of the players. I wanted to create a vague (cause the whole post is pretty vague. It’s one thing to say “defensive advantage” and a whole nother thing to quantify it.) concept of what WvW could use to add significant spice.

I think this a pretty ambitious suggestion and it would, bare minimum take 18 months of consistent work to complete, and there’s no guarantee that it would fit the bill the way I’ve outlined it.

even if this idea was picked up it would take about 3 years to implement it. because .. you know.. no one working on wvw.
Nothing being done except lazy simple alteration that don’t mean anything unless you are stacking like a tool.

Hahah, what makes you think arenanet wants to spend even 1$ on wvw? They’re too busy creating skins they can sell in the gem store.

Hamster.4861:

style.6173:

@OP:

I like the ideas, although it took the WvW dev team over a year to introduce color commander tags. How long do you think it would be to implement what you said?

*Edit: Someone pointed out to me that the color tags was more for PvE, so the WvW dev team might not have been involved. Scary.

I’ll say it again, it’s not really relevant that this plan isnt likely to be implemented. It’s more an exercise in creativity in finding a solution that would meet the desires of the players. I wanted to create a vague (cause the whole post is pretty vague. It’s one thing to say “defensive advantage” and a whole nother thing to quantify it.) concept of what WvW could use to add significant spice.

I think this a pretty ambitious suggestion and it would, bare minimum take 18 months of consistent work to complete, and there’s no guarantee that it would fit the bill the way I’ve outlined it.

Art is fundamentally what people need it to be. I still believe.

bumping because i’ve seen borderland rotation a lot in the last week in a bunch of posts.

and i’m a kitten like that.

From what I’ve read in the HoT expansion materials, is that we’re getting a better designed map for WvW. They’ve accorded a defensive advantage to whoever will hold the new map. I am excited to see how it turns out.

I support! I like the idea of the maps being more friendly to large scale battles, the maps they have been proposing like EoTM.. are terrible for good WVW game play, this sounds wonderful though.

Hamster.4861:

bumping because i’ve seen borderland rotation a lot in the last week in a bunch of posts.

and i’m a kitten like that.

From what I’ve read in the HoT expansion materials, is that we’re getting a better designed map for WvW. They’ve accorded a defensive advantage to whoever will hold the new map. I am excited to see how it turns out.

I like the way your maps sound better than theirs.. Theirs sound like we are getting another EoTM so far from what the interviews said. I think your ideas are better designed for WVW than theirs lol

I agree with the OP that WvW is inherently broken at this time. The new maps sounds like an improvement over the current system, but the system will remain flawed. As an example over the past weeks our server has been paired against Fort Aspenwood and Sea Of Sorrows (I use “against”…“and” literally as these 2 guilds only fight one another once our server has been erradicated on its own borderlands.) Since Anet only allows a specific number of players per map from each server, our home server is facing a deficit of more than 2 to 1 (why because the 2 other boderlands and ebg completely controlled by its home server and has unlimited supplies porting in.) Also SoS tyically will destroy a keeps wall, 2) FA will kill any home server player trying to reach the keep under seige, 3) let SoS or FA go in to claim the last wall while “the watching” server will destroy any remaining home server defenses/players and keep the camps locked down and 4) which ever server did not claim the above keep will move to next keep and repeat the above.

I would like to see a condition imposed, like the health degen in the LS glint’s lair, once the opponent’s outnumber the maximum capacity of the Borderland under the 2 vs 1 siege. This trigger would apply to both invading squads players, siege equipment and supplies (proportionate to the invaders excessive numbers, 1 stack of “Torment” for each day the invaders continue their “unsportsmanlike” conduct.)

An easier fix would be to simply go to 1v1 format like PvP.