Guild Wars 2

Nothing against the idea behind this trap. But a fix seems to be required otherwise rams are now only usable in a sneak attack. I’ve already seen superior rams on outer gate of garrison being disabled 4 times in a row from 2 to 4 defenders putting trap from the inside to disable the rams that were placed outside the gate (after that we just let those ram be since it was pointless and went to resupply to cata the walls).

Either put a diminishing return so after a few use rams can’t be disabled anymore or make it so a siege trap cannot bypass the gate. Putting trap outside to buy time for a defensive response seems like a great mechanic. But spamming traps from within the bastion to permanently disable rams seems a bit overwhelming.

Maybe rams are not as neccessary in higher tier server with massive amount of players, but over here we do enjoy battering ram. It feels more realistic and immersive than… Players Vs Door (PVD). PVD is a last resort when a door is almost down and we are out of supplies.

-Yes there are other siege engine to use. But having the choice and not being forced to use catapult/treb on every takes seems more appealing. Even then, those engines are mostly used against wall and not against a gate.

-

We could jsut return to bashing the gate with a zerg. XD

Not every server have 24/7 zerg. Without a zerg PvD is not really an option. XD

Yeah I kinda get the point of possible abuse with the new Disabler, but it does have its limits. I do not think the effects stack and the use of this trick requires Supply to use. If your keep or tower does not have spare Supplies, the tower is pretty screwed. Also you could use your own Disabler to disable any of their defensive like Arrow Carts on top of walls. And in a way this does encourage more use of the Trebuchet, which I think its good. Its just a matter of either now going up close or attacking from afar.

I’ll admit they seem a little OP right now. I was surprised not to see diminishing returns on the disable effect. I don’t see rams being too useful now if whatever you’re assaulting even has 1 guy defending it. Catas will have to be much more spread out now too in order to minimize the effects of these.

Even with catas, thieves can still disable pretty easily. They just have to stealth in, disable, then stealth back out, rinse & repeat.

I agree on the point where it seems a bit too overpowered but I guess we have to explore/deploy other means of siege tactics. I personally feel that different types of siege weapons should be used in a structure assaults – not limited to the use of rams but catas and trebs too.

Already tell there needs to be a cool down on this thing. I like the concept but one player effectively turning off attacking siege indefinitely is pretty stupid.

Welcome to the future, comrades.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Ulion.5476:

New trick consumable: Siege Disabler that disables enemy siege for 45 seconds and golems for 20 seconds. Cost of 10 supply and a 1200 range. That is the new defensive/offensive trap for the feature pack. Stops Rams/AC/Golem for a good ammount of time at least until supply runs out or you run out of traps.

It gets a little more complicated than that. You can go to EotM, for example, and take supply from there right back to regular WvW. Defenders can port in every 3 minutes to a waypointed keep under attack with inventories full of siege disablers and shut down any rams, catapults, or golems indefinitely. Defense runs out and kills everyone.

On the counter side, build 10 omegas and have an entire zerg load up on siege disablers, they don’t even need to get close to shut down an entire structure’s defensive siege inedefinitely. Golems walk in and nuke everything and everyone in sight.

And the third option: complete stalemate. Infantry beats down the doors by hand, defense rushes everyone outside until there’s nobody left, one side or the other.

It sounds like insanity.

Yes, arrow carts (and ballistas) on the walls are now Doomed by siege disablers, but it’s WAY too easy for a single person to defend from inside a tower with an AC, cata, or treb on the ground where it can’t be reached from outside, and where they can easily toss a siege disabler trap at the gate, or onto near catas from atop a wall. Toss a trap, walk leisurely back to supply hut to get supply, heck buy a trap if you don’t have one, still have plenty of time to leisurely stroll back to toss the next trap just as the first one times out.

This effectively makes rams nearly useless, which I suspect was not the intended effect.

Yes, you can siege from a distance, and/or space your catas and trebs far enough apart that the defenders have to use multiple disabler traps, and that part is fine, but again it’s the rams that really suffer here.

Heck, I love defending, and I’ve often thought that attackers have it too easy, and defenders too hard. But THIS is overpowered.

I think reducing the disabled timer from 45 seconds down to 20 seconds would be more reasonable, but would have to test that out live to see.

Any time you have enough time to do a bio break while defending without worrying about attackers, there’s something wrong.

Straegen.2938:

Already tell there needs to be a cool down on this thing. I like the concept but one player effectively turning off attacking siege indefinitely is pretty stupid.

And anet were told well prior to implementation that this would be an issue.

was having a raid yesterday, attacking enemy t3 garrison and towers was just stupid, 1 -2 defenders could stall everything indefinitely.

i guess the only saving grace is that now once you’re in there’s no way to banner lord but i’m not so sure i like that either.

Anti-siege Grenades is fine with some changes, cost should be 5mats (so you can drop 2-4), the area it locks down smaller and say 1500 in range you can place it. when you stand on cliff in Crag/Dawn/Cliffside you should be able to place on in front off gate.

If you build ram left, middle and right side off gate it should not be able to lock down all on 1 trap.

make it disable a single siege weapon on a line of sight basis/direct projectile hit and it’s fine. could up the duration a little bit too to compensate.

If u got enough traps and supply in a tower or keep 1 person can keep rams disabled permanently.

5 thiefs with +20 supply can keep open field siege siege disabled for like 8 minutes and face zero repercussions.

Seems like a stupid idea who ever thought of this should be fired.

disabler trap skill needs to trigger an immune buff on tricks on disabled siege. at least half time of disabled effect .

p.s. i dint used it yet but i think this is the fair

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

You can go to EotM, for example, and take supply from there right back to regular WvW. Defenders can port in every 3 minutes to a waypointed keep under attack with inventories full of siege disablers and shut down any rams, catapults, or golems indefinitely. Defense runs out and kills everyone.

If defense has enough people to wipe the attackers, there’s no point in disabling the siege. Disabling the siege is only useful to gain some time for the defense to arrive and wipe the attackers.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

On the counter side, build 10 omegas and have an entire zerg load up on siege disablers, they don’t even need to get close to shut down an entire structure’s defensive siege inedefinitely. Golems walk in and nuke everything and everyone in sight.

What’s stopping defenders from disabling the omegas?

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

And the third option: complete stalemate. Infantry beats down the doors by hand, defense rushes everyone outside until there’s nobody left, one side or the other.

If there’s no attackers left, the structure is defended. I don’t see your point here…

QQing to the skies about this on the day it launches seems premature. The meta will need to adjust to the new mechanic, and it hasn’t yet. It might turn out that this really sucks, but I think it’s a bit early to puppy about it after just a few hours.

The point was to make it harder to flip towers and keeps, and it looks like it’s doing that.

People have been complaining for ages that WvW is broken because of coverage discrepancies. This offers the potential of mitigating that problem. 1 guy can sit in a tower and prevent a high population server rolling through ..

So now the blob has to start thinking .. this is a good thing Guys!
OK – so the siege disabler seems OP (I haven’t had the chance to check it out yet and I’m sure I’ll rage about it as well when my ram is disabled constantly) but let’s see what counters we can come up with before screaming for a nerf.

The way it is right now the siege disabler is way overpowered.

Ideally it would be removed from the game entirely (along with the supply stealing cloud) but since that won’t happen, I suggest making it so while a piece of siege is disabled it cannot be destroyed and for 45 seconds after the disable has been removed the siege cannot be disabled again.

Personally I see the siege disabler as a way of buying your server some time to get reinforcements into the keep/tower/castle. But allowing someone to disable your siege, destroy them, and then force you to start over, is just silly.

Might as well just treb everything now from the safety of your keep/tower. Might cost less.

Funny… I am finding almost the opposite to be true too… golem rush… ppl throw disabler at the canons before taking them out.

The whole thing between golems and disablers is messed up and has not been properly considered by whoever dreamed up the idea. I think in the overall picture the patch favours the attacker more than the defender.

i agree with the person the posted above that this was indeed foreseen before implementation. trap and supply cost is very trivial for something so effective and can be used defensively and offensively. we requested a vid way back then to show how it worked out of curiosity but…hey, who are we to request. we’ll have to deal with it during the season.

Bloodwort MacFangho.4638:

So now the blob has to start thinking .. this is a good thing Guys!
OK – so the siege disabler seems OP (I haven’t had the chance to check it out yet and I’m sure I’ll rage about it as well when my ram is disabled constantly) but let’s see what counters we can come up with before screaming for a nerf.

Its a projectile so it can be blocked by projectile blocking skills. However there is essentially no animation to it so you can’t see it coming and a thief or mesmer can stealth up to the siege before using it. So its hard to counter. Based on tonights experience its going to make attacking much more tedious.

Menaka.5092:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

You can go to EotM, for example, and take supply from there right back to regular WvW. Defenders can port in every 3 minutes to a waypointed keep under attack with inventories full of siege disablers and shut down any rams, catapults, or golems indefinitely. Defense runs out and kills everyone.

If defense has enough people to wipe the attackers, there’s no point in disabling the siege. Disabling the siege is only useful to gain some time for the defense to arrive and wipe the attackers.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

On the counter side, build 10 omegas and have an entire zerg load up on siege disablers, they don’t even need to get close to shut down an entire structure’s defensive siege inedefinitely. Golems walk in and nuke everything and everyone in sight.

What’s stopping defenders from disabling the omegas?

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

And the third option: complete stalemate. Infantry beats down the doors by hand, defense rushes everyone outside until there’s nobody left, one side or the other.

If there’s no attackers left, the structure is defended. I don’t see your point here…

I don’t know how you could read that entire post and miss the point of… everything. Option 1: defenders win
Option 2: attackers win
Option 3: most likely scenario. Usage of siege disablers on both sides causes a stalemate. This either forces two things:

a) There are not enough defenders to jump out and wipe the attackers, but enough to disable their siege, so the attackers PvD the gates down with their bare hands until they’re in. Attackers win.

b) Defenders have enough people to take out the attackers whether it be by added numbers to the structure or people already inside due to neither one being able to defeat the other via siege. Defense rushes out, kills everyone, succeeds in stopping the attack. Defenders win.

Is that clear now? You should really read the thread where that post takes place in. Just click on the quote, it’ll take you right to it.

Since the patch I saw an awful lot of back-and-forth, first with a 5 omega rush where they disabled our cannons first, then we disabled the golems and rushed out and meleed them, fell back, were able to get on cannons for a few seconds and fire off a few shots, cannons were then destroyed, golems hid in swc while they built ballistas on top of the arch to kill people on bay wall (couldn’t be reached with siege disablers), defense finally rushed out after gaining enough numbers and killed them. So I suppose it was option #3 — it was a stalemate until defense just jumped out and rushed.

For the thief using this on catapults/trebs part: put supply traps/stealth traps around your siege to drain his supply before he can use it.

I knew this thing was gonna be trouble the moment anet announced it.

As an offensive weapon it is not practical to use a siege disabler. The biggest reason for this is that offense supply is more limited than defense supply in most cases and especially for upgraded towers and keeps. Additionally whatever your reason was for the disabler is obsolete: You can’t put any siege near the objective where a disabler can be thrown onto you.

As a defensive weapon the siege disabler makes any melee siege obsolete. Rams are useless. Catapults stacked on cata-walls are useless.

The new PPT meta is catapults and trebs from range. Rams shouldn’t be bothered with anymore. Even if you got a sneak attack there is a strong chance for the attack to fail if only one guy gets in with a disabler. Unless you made enough progress to PvDoor the rest of the way you’ll have wasted your time on the door. The walls are the best way in now as there is less risk in the assault.

The previous siege meta was fine as it is maybe if ram damage was reduced even. This new meta has less depth. What I propose to help fix this:
1. The siege disabler only disables normal siege for 20 seconds.
2. Siege disabled by a disabler cannot be re-disabled for 1 minute. – or -
2. Diminishing returns on re-disabling: second disable: 10 seconds, third 5, 4th+ no disable. Stacking buff that fades after 1 minute total time.

ANET plz make rams viable again by nerfing the disabler to a reasonable level. Thanks.

Called it when this trap was first shown that catas and golems would become the only practical way to take most things…fix / re-think incoming soon I hope…

Instead of rewarding people more for defending they just made it so people can delay attackers long enough for your attacking force to come back and defend.

Tried to cap a T3 tower with 300 supply inside. As we where only 8 people we tried to ram it down quickly. We were disabled 8 times in a row giving them enough time to even run supplies for a treb to take our rams down.

Basically this only helps the stronger server as they can always gather up more people to wipe the attacking force. Small groups of 8 to 10 really dont stand much chance anymore. Upgraded towers/keeps take ages to cata/treb down (and even then can still easily be disabled)
Blobbing up and kitten ing gate down will just be the new best thing to do.

My suggestion is to max buying siege disabler to 1 per day or once it has been used on a ram, that ram cant be disabled anymore for 3 minutes or so.

A while ago, people complained that it was unfair that a T3 tower/keep full of supplies could be taken under 3 minutes with a zerg and that 1-2 defenders could do pretty much nothing but watch.

Now I didn’t really get to play to see how bad it could be, but really, give it a few days and players will adjust.
Just like they did with ram and AC mastery.

This tool have its issues but I think its good.
One of most annoying issues is that if Ac is palced from below on the wall, you know it looks like its not on wall but in air, then this tool wont reach this AC.
Or if the AC is on stairs leading to wall, tool wont affect it.

RedStar.4218:

A while ago, people complained that it was unfair that a T3 tower/keep full of supplies could be taken under 3 minutes with a zerg and that 1-2 defenders could do pretty much nothing but watch.

Now I didn’t really get to play to see how bad it could be, but really, give it a few days and players will adjust.
Just like they did with ram and AC mastery.

it is a bit different situation here.

this trap total disable sieges and the people that hate siege usage will find it as their paradise tool and people that love to play with blobs and sieges will hate it .

i am sure we will see write different players on these forums … soon

morrolan.9608:

Its a projective so it can be blocked by projectile blocking skills. However there is essentially no animation to it so you can’t see it coming and a thief or m,esmer can stealth up to the siege before using it. So its hard to counter. Based on tonight experience its going to make attacking much more tedious.

there are so many projectile blocking skills, easy way get a group of 5 ele takeing focus offhand and useing whirling winds one after the other = you get 100% uptime protection to your siege weapons.. of course this can be countered by killing ele’s but thats another story…
only problem is that not primetime player who are running with few ppl can offer this…
but in the end its limited to supply, so maybe ppl finally start thinking a bit more about ressources and ways to disturb…

eles are rarely that abundant and much too valuable to just equip subpar weaponsets on. you need staff eles in your zerg, dedicating 5 or so to projectile protection can’t be good when a real fight happens.

i’m sure some people will do it but it’s not something i’m looking forward to at all.

not to mention it’s an aoe skill, it could still be possible to throw one just outside your barrier range and still hit some siege inside the protected area if you don’t execute it perfectly (or just sneak a throw inbetween casts if you don’t time it perfectly)

Somehow they managed to make attacking just as boring as defending. Now we begin the era of DPS’ing the gate or going with prolonged ranged sieges.

I suppose that in concept the Siege Disabler was intended to boost a small defending force’s capacity to hold out against a larger attacking force, and maybe in some instances it does that. In my brief experience of the practice however, it serves principally as another advantage to the larger force.

The more people in a group, the greater the supply capacity of the group, and therefore the more Traps that can be employed. Attacking with rams will now in theory require an amount of time equal to ((Supply/10) * kitten + Ramming time) if the defenders are holding out for help; if the help that arrives is greater than the attacking force, the attack will likely fail. If the defenders are not waiting for help and are going to build their own devices, then they must know the places they can build them that are not subject to grenade attacks. If the defenders are more numerous than the attackers, then they can essentially stall indefinitely and it becomes a fight between interior machines and attackers using just their swords. Given a large enough defending force, this is little different from how it is now, with one exception: siege that builds on the walls.

Cannons, mortars, and oil are now useless against a large force. Whereas one could previously provide some defense through these means, toughing it out against enemy casters and slowing the assault, casters are now in no danger from these devices while destroying them. Everything on the wall is disabled instantly and melted long before 45 seconds have elapsed. They are ornaments with which to gild your fort on the way to a wp, but other than eating 10 enemy supply, they have no function. A large attacking force already could destroy wall defenses quickly; now they can do so with relative impunity.

In short, the bigger the force, the less effective enemy siege machines are. This was always the case, of course, but now instead of a gradual decline, once a certain force size disparity is attained, siege machine effect is just reduced immediately to zero.

I’m frankly not sure what the intent was behind the new Trap. Prevent small groups from capturing forts? Encourage people to use golems? Both of these benefit blobs. What we actually see is blobs now being even stronger than before. I don’t see this as a positive change.

This trap is disaster…
Think they should lower duration of trap to max 20sec, put cooldown on it and think siege with “Siege Disabler” effect should become immune to damage, then it might be playable again….
If they dont change something really fast people will just start running one queue blob and start kitten ing gates down so they have any chance to destroy any gate…

Ocosh.5843:

I suppose that in concept the Siege Disabler was intended to boost a small defending force’s capacity to hold out against a larger attacking force, and maybe in some instances it does that. In my brief experience of the practice however, it serves principally as another advantage to the larger force.

Yep of course it does and such consequences were immediately obvious. It doesn’t help defenders defend. It helps them delay the attackers long enough so that the zerg can finish what its doing and get there.

Another thing it works through doors like certain aoe abilities so defenders don’t even have to risk getting up no walls to stop rams.

Working as intended as the tricks use up supply.

Hint: Trait-Treb some cows in the tower/keep and drain defender’s supply.

On that note, the tower-ram train was getting boring and aggravating for anyone that wanted any chance at defense without a zerg.

I like them and love the challenge of a new problem to solve.

They should just remove it and apologize for the bad idea. From what I’ve seen it’s game breaking when a group start spamming them: all the siege just become unusable.

Straegen.2938:

…one player effectively turning off attacking siege indefinitely is pretty stupid.

You would think so, because then when you have 2 thieves throwing these around it’s a near rage-quit moment.

Does it work on siege golems? otherwise i can see golem sieges becoming more popular

Still most of the time for some reason whenever I WvW and were bashing a door open noone’s home

Yes, it works on golems, only it’s 20 sec disable on a golem. 45 secs disable on everything else. I think we all agree that 45 seconds is way too long. Making it 20 seconds for everything seems more reasonable, and still useful without being awful. Diminishing returns or a temporary immunity is an interesting idea, but one that would have to be carefully balanced.

The range is 1200. TWELVE HUNDRED. You don’t need a thief to sneak up on those field catas unless they’re waaaaay back there. I don’t really have a strong opinion on whether or not the range needs to be changed.

The area of effect is 450. This is possibly too large; either smaller, or just make it single target.

I like to defend. I think defenders should have the advantage. Having all your pretty trinket wall siege disabled instantly isn’t an advantage. Being able to perma-disable door rams is an advantage, but a way overpowered one.

Please fix!

I’m really torn on this.

On the one hand it’s imbalanced, but on the other hand using the trick is pretty satisfying.

They removed the banner ability (which I really, really don’t agree with) to make up for this, but it seems like the net result is fewer fights. Either someone goes ahead and takes a structure with no response because they got in, or they never get in because you have disabler.

Maybe the Disabler needs a slight tweak so each only works on ONE siege engine? Rather than the large AoE radius it does now?

Straegen.2938:

Already tell there needs to be a cool down on this thing. I like the concept but one player effectively turning off attacking siege indefinitely is pretty stupid.

Its not indefinitly. I do agree thieves in particular, but also mesmers, have an unusually powerful tool for trolling that no one else can really use just as effective, thanks to stealth.

But the point of the siege disabler is to counter throwing down a blob of sup rams and melting a gate in 15seconds.
And its to stop the silly tactic of throwing down a cluster of cata’s right upto a wall. So you dont have to waste time charging the things.
Or how stackings cata’s together allowed chaining the bubble to indefinitly protect cata’s from a lot of counter siege.

The siege disabler isnt a single counter to all siege. But it punishes certain rush tactics. Now you will consider putting your catas a bit further away, so they cant be hit from the walls. And you will also want to spread them out a bit, so you dont lose all siege in one disable, but it would mean no more chaining-bubble for indefinite protection, which i find a good thing aswell.

explain how will you put your catas further from the wall in hills. only spot that looks viable now is the cliff one and it doesn’t have the ability to hit both walls. might be just as bad depending on how the disabler interacts with the Z-axis.

adozu.6398:

explain how will you put your catas further from the wall in hills. only spot that looks viable now is the cliff one and it doesn’t have the ability to hit both walls. might be just as bad depending on how the disabler interacts with the Z-axis.

And maybe thats the point? You could also build a treb. But why should cata’s be so good they can just be placed and break through both lines of walls of a keep?

Now that is a trade-off. Do i place my cata’s here where they hit faster, and we can enter faster, and they can hit the inner wall? Or, do i place them somewhere we can defend them against attempts to disable them.

I like the fact this is now a choice. Instead of mindless zerging, you have to make a choice. Weight your options, based on other factors, and make a descision based on that.
If a keep or tower isnt defended, you could still attempt to rush with cata’s or rams. Putting a bigger emphasis on keeping defenders out.

Currently its the best options, and as a result the only thing people really ever do. Rarely do i see more drawn out siege, with catas or trebs from a distance. Its all about avoiding conflict now. Either rush to the lord unopposed, or abort and try again later. And siege disablers mean to stop this behavior.

It’s a littlebit too op.
Let the siege weapon to be disabled only ont time, it makes the trap to be used more tactically. And, please, 45 sec is really too op. Just the time for a zerg coming. Just make 20 secs, and nerf it for leagues, pls.

Suggest to make it 2 way. Not just benefit defenders but benefit attackers as well.

It does benefit attackers, the splash is fairly large that arrowcarts on walls can be hit with this aswell and disabled. But it favors defenders more, and that seems to be the intention behind this trick.

You can use it for AC’s/trebs but if they cant use AC and attacker cant use rams, attack will still fail because they can still destroy rams with skills a lot faster than attacker can destroy gate with skills…
Plus if you trow siege desabler on ac, defender can easly place another one using tower/keep supply and use those supply to trow another trap when first one is over, while thats not always the case if you want to build one more ram or throw another trap…

…and to add mine to the mix…

The siege disruptor time limit of 45 seconds has got to be one of the most ridiculous things ever done in an MMO. That’s enough time to bring a zerg most of the way across the map… and the fact that you can just keep applying another one once the first one times out makes sieging a tower almost impossible even if there’s only 1 person inside. Seriously, this is definitely a good way to get the lazy people to just sit inside and defend, which the rest of us that like the fight do our best but continue to get zerged out worse than ever before due to useless siege… I don’t complain idly and as a matter of fact this is the only complaint about how this game runs that I’ve submitted. It wasn’t a well thought out addition to the game and truly only benefits the people that already outnumber the rest and afford to have drones sitting inside towers and keeps with these traps.