Guild Wars 2

Situation today:
Most of the borderlands taken from us, we are outmanned, 40-15 or so.
We are struggling to defend the garrison against the blob, no supply left.
We own only the top supply camp, I go there and see this (attached screen)

2 trebs, on being deep inside the wooden structure, and a ram (outside of the frame).

Question to the devs:

If you really play WvW as you claim, how can you not have added a small text to each placed siege saying ‘Placed by <player name>’ still, after a year? So that we can make screenshot as report it, since it is clearly against ‘spirit of fair play and competition’?

And before you say that it’s a waste of resources, that’s BS, because you can use an ID number for every player in the game that is a single variable, 4 bytes its more than enough to identify everyone and does not take long to transmit. It’s not like millions of people are inspecting siege every second.

All is fair in love and war.

LilMcGinley.3890:

All is fair in love and war.

No, it’s called match manipulation, and it’s against the user agreement.

22. While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder.

I know what you mean but it is hard to prove that they were not build to keep off an epic siege…

They’re already tracking who owns the siege anyway since you can kick people off the siege you placed.

Mif.3471:

LilMcGinley.3890:

All is fair in love and war.

No, it’s called match manipulation, and it’s against the user agreement.

22. While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder.

PvP = sPvP. That means throwing matches to raise someone else’s rating on the Leaderboard and has no merit in WvW as you don’t have ratings or a ladder. And wasting supply has no direct relation to winning or losing a match.

LilMcGinley.3890:

And wasting supply has no direct relation to winning or losing a match.

If it didn’t then why would people bother?

Mif.3471:

LilMcGinley.3890:

And wasting supply has no direct relation to winning or losing a match.

If it didn’t then why would people bother?

To grief of course. People do things in game without winning/losing being the ultimate goal, shocking I know..

Today, the spy is back… we are a few taking back our borderlands, supply is short with so few, and on our way to the wormgate (north bay gate) we see this…

What I’m asking for is simple.

Display player name or player number on each placed siege to identify who placed it.
If someone places a lot of suspicious siege, we report it with screenshots.
If the player is caught 3 or more times doing this, then it’s clear he’s not just new, but a spy, breaking TOS (match manipulation, going against the spirit of fair play, not contributing to the team effort with good conscience or whatever else the TOS is saying).

He would then be prohibited from placing siege until the match is over (max a week).
If he does this again next match, he won’t be able to place siege for a month.
If he repeats if after that, his account will be permanently banned from placing siege in WvW.

Sounds fair?

This is by far not the most extreme example of such behavior. I ask everyone to make screens and post it in this or similar thread to make the devs act faster

zerospin.8604:

Today, the spy is back… we are a few taking back our borderlands, supply is short with so few, and on our way to the wormgate (north bay gate) we see this…

What I’m asking for is simple.

Display player name or player number on each placed siege to identify who placed it.
If someone places a lot of suspicious siege, we report it with screenshots.
If the player is caught 3 or more times doing this, then it’s clear he’s not just new, but a spy, breaking TOS (match manipulation, going against the spirit of fair play, not contributing to the team effort with good conscience or whatever else the TOS is saying).

He would then be prohibited from placing siege until the match is over (max a week).
If he does this again next match, he won’t be able to place siege for a month.
If he repeats if after that, his account will be permanently banned from placing siege in WvW.

Sounds fair?

This is by far not the most extreme example of such behavior. I ask everyone to make screens and post it in this or similar thread to make the devs act faster

Not gonna happen. Deal with it. Spies are spies.

LilMcGinley.3890:

Not gonna happen. Deal with it. Spies are spies.

I do hope ANet sees it differently. It would be very disappointing otherwise and encouraging to exploit this and other things, when the devs don’t even care.

zerospin.8604:

LilMcGinley.3890:

Not gonna happen. Deal with it. Spies are spies.

I do hope ANet sees it differently. It would be very disappointing otherwise and encouraging to exploit this and other things, when the devs don’t even care.

Na I agree with you, I just don’t see them trying to track where, how and for what purpose is being built. Unless they want to say, “you can only place trebs here” there is no way to track it. Yeah, it’s a backwards way of trying to win but still a valid strategy.

How do you know it isn’t someone foolishly trying to do Ultimate Fabricator and Ultimate Besieger?

Especially now with the achievement rewards …

Khisanth.2948:

How do you know it isn’t someone foolishly trying to do Ultimate Fabricator and Ultimate Besieger?

Especially now with the achievement rewards …

This is a big part of the problem IMO. The game rewards behavior that could be viewed as griefing in certain circumstances.

Liquid.9672:

This is a big part of the problem IMO. The game rewards behavior that could be viewed as griefing in certain circumstances.

And thus, 50 man yak escorting crews saw the end of Yak’s rewarding experience.

Liquid.9672:

Khisanth.2948:

How do you know it isn’t someone foolishly trying to do Ultimate Fabricator and Ultimate Besieger?

Especially now with the achievement rewards …

This is a big part of the problem IMO. The game rewards behavior that could be viewed as griefing in certain circumstances.

Keep supply depots and non-linear upgrade queues are both also guilty of this.

This is all bullkitten. You are the reason PVE’ers are turned away from wvw. rather than explain strategy and organize, you would rather tie off their arms and make them slaves to your own blob pressing the 1 key repeatedly. I cannot stand that the devs will acknowledge that the rule regarding “match fixing” is being thrown around to describe anyone who refuses or is ignorant of the meta of seige, supply, and zergs.

TL;DR:
Edit(to be less offensive)

You really need to get off your elitist horse and meet people halfway

Phate.4871:

You really need to get off your elitist horse and meet people halfway

1) Take supply from camps – OK 95% of the time! Go crazy!

2) Don’t take Supply from Towers or Keeps unless a commander says it is okay.

In the case of this thread, don’t have a Spy/Alt take ALL of a Keep or Tower’s supply before your home server’s zerg comes to attack an objective.

Urrid.4593:

Don’t take Supply from Towers or Keeps unless a commander says it is okay.

In the case of this thread, don’t have a Spy/Alt take ALL of a Keep or Tower’s supply before your home server’s zerg comes to attack an objective.

Spying is a seperate issue that Anet really hasn’t bother to deal with, but this takes the cake.

“Don’t take Supply from Towers or Keeps unless a commander says it is okay. "

Just because they spent 100 gold doesnt make them a god. I actually can play toward wvw and not have to do a thing a commander tells me. That tag helps lead groups of players, and, in the end, it will be my own judgement whether to follow what they do or say. If a keep is the closest thing to me and I need supply, I will use supply. That isn’t match fixing, that is an inconvenience to those trying to run a specific strategy. Same way that not everyone follows a dungeon meta for loadouts and gear, not everyone has to bend over backwards to someone who shelled out 100 gold.

Phate.4871:

Spying is a seperate issue that Anet really hasn’t bother to deal with, but this takes the cake.

“Don’t take Supply from Towers or Keeps unless a commander says it is okay. "

Just because they spent 100 gold doesnt make them a god. I actually can play toward wvw and not have to do a thing a commander tells me. That tag helps lead groups of players, and, in the end, it will be my own judgement whether to follow what they do or say. If a keep is the closest thing to me and I need supply, I will use supply. That isn’t match fixing, that is an inconvenience to those trying to run a specific strategy. Same way that not everyone follows a dungeon meta for loadouts and gear, not everyone has to bend over backwards to someone who shelled out 100 gold.

This is a very selfish post that goes against what world versus world stands for. Some commanders are actually very good at creating strategies that require cooperation, but people like you tend to create a problem for them.

Stop thinking only about me me me. Did you stop to think that the supply you took from the keep prevented a waypoint from being upgraded? That would have helped out you, but you don’t have the foresight to consider that.

DevonCarver.5370:

So, we are looking into what we can do to deal with these sorts of problems, but they are very tricky to deal with. The threshold I always have in mind is that any change we make has damage legitimate play less than whatever we are trying to address does. That being said I think we have some interesting ideas for the future, but they are not guaranteed to make it out of testing, because they have to work. I agree that this behavior is frustrating, and we will do as much as we can to try and put a stop to it.

Thanks, it’s good to know this issue is known and being worked on

Phate.4871:

That tag helps lead groups of players, and, in the end, it will be my own judgement whether to follow what they do or say. If a keep is the closest thing to me and I need supply, I will use supply

Then make your own choices. If you actually know what is going on (and most wvw noobies don’t) then you can take supply from keeps/towers all day long and it will have a tiny impact.

Phate.4871:

This is all bullkitten. You are the reason PVE’ers are turned away from wvw. rather than explain strategy and organize, you would rather tie off their arms and make them slaves to your own blob pressing the 1 key repeatedly. I cannot stand that the devs will acknowledge that the rule regarding “match fixing” is being thrown around to describe anyone who refuses or is ignorant of the meta of seige, supply, and zergs.

TL;DR:
Edit(to be less offensive)

You really need to get off your elitist horse and meet people halfway

…says the (probable) PvEer who has no clue what hes talking about.

hes not on an elitist horse. meeting people halfway means condoning griefing. griefing must have zero tolerance to retain any shred of respect for the community and its devs.

people dont just place trebs in a covered building for the hell of it, or for an achievement. they do it to kitten with people.

Phate.4871:

This is all bullkitten. You are the reason PVE’ers are turned away from wvw. rather than explain strategy and organize, you would rather tie off their arms and make them slaves to your own blob pressing the 1 key repeatedly. I cannot stand that the devs will acknowledge that the rule regarding “match fixing” is being thrown around to describe anyone who refuses or is ignorant of the meta of seige, supply, and zergs.

TL;DR:
Edit(to be less offensive)

You really need to get off your elitist horse and meet people halfway

The problem with what’s currently happening is self-serving players are able to wreck an entire server’s position, and ruin the cooperation of others mind you, by simply walking around building siege and eating supply. Not knowing how supply works is not an excuse for planting siege next to a ‘pick-up’ zone and draining supply because you either wanted to sabotage the server or selfishly level up without participating.

You can’t prove or disprove deliberate intent on sabotage when this kind of gameplay happens. However, you CAN keep it from happening a number of ways. For instance, you could limit the number of times or frequency that a player may take supply from the same source.

It’s not about keeping players from playing how they want, its about keeping their “playing how they want” from destroying how others play.

Forz.1725:

This is a very selfish post that goes against what world versus world stands for. Some commanders are actually very good at creating strategies that require cooperation, but people like you tend to create a problem for them.

Stop thinking only about me me me. Did you stop to think that the supply you took from the keep prevented a waypoint from being upgraded? That would have helped out you, but you don’t have the foresight to consider that.

Selfish? maybe.

I play for plenty of zergs and have played under several commanders whose descisions I respect. I do know how supply is used to get the waypoint, or to upgrade the EB keep that FA keeps waking up to to find has been reduced to paper again.

What the point of all I said wasn’t to say that this isn’t an issue(referring to people wasting seige). What is an issue for me is that people tend to assume anyone who takes supply is “match fixing” or ‘cheating" and should therefore be banned. That isn’t cool or ok and gives WVW players a bad reputation among pve’ers, who are future wvwers. I say what I have said because threads like this cause pve players to quit becuase no one bothers to explain what implications of taking seige are.(waypoint, etc) That is why im upset, not because people are wrong about taking seige, but that they are actualy as rude elitist children who are hogging all the toys in the preschool

Khisanth.2948:

How do you know it isn’t someone foolishly trying to do Ultimate Fabricator and Ultimate Besieger?

Especially now with the achievement rewards …

You’re playing the devil’s advocate here – you know it’s not the case.

If the siege displayed the name of the player, we could PM him and ask him why he’s doing it, before reporting this behavior. If he were indeed trying to work on that achievement, we would explain him to rather build arrow carts in keeps than trebs inside a shed for the same effect, but helping the server. That’s the problem, anonymous siege. The easiest and simplest way to fix it is to add player names to the siege. It is not unprecedented in MMO’s, LOTRO’s crafting had the crafters name attached to the items he crafted. If a 7yo game can do it, so can GW2.

Adding names to siege is also serving another purpose. Rewarding the people who place it by making their name ‘known’. Any new player may look at the siege and see some names popping up more often, these ‘siege masters’ will hence be known to many, and even though their work won’t give them more points than a zergling gets, it would still be a sort of reward. At the moment we recognize many of the commanders, but the siege masters are anonymous, because no badge is shown for their work.

Two birds with one stone.

Phate.4871:

Selfish? maybe.

Maybe no one bothers to explain stuff on FA. Hah.

If anyone ever asks “why” in map chat, and I am not Commanding, I will take 5-10 minutes to explain supply/siege/upgrades and their roles in WvW.

zerospin.8604:

Two birds with one stone.

As a siege vending machine, I would approve of this soo much.

zerospin.8604:

Khisanth.2948:

How do you know it isn’t someone foolishly trying to do Ultimate Fabricator and Ultimate Besieger?

Especially now with the achievement rewards …

You’re playing the devil’s advocate here – you know it’s not the case.

How do you KNOW that? You’re assumptions are just as good as the next guy’s.

zerospin.8604:

If the siege displayed the name of the player, we could PM him and ask him why he’s doing it, before reporting this behavior. If he were indeed trying to work on that achievement, we would explain him to rather build arrow carts in keeps than trebs inside a shed for the same effect, but helping the server. That’s the problem, anonymous siege.

I’m sure you would be nice and polite to the player. What about others? What about every single player that can see that name? Do we want to bring massive whisper-griefing to players who are just ignorant of the impact of their gameplay? I know quite a few people who would whisper whoever they wanted about whatever siege they saw if they didn’t like it’s placement.

Sure harassment is a ban-able offense, but do we want to give it more of an opportunity to exist, create tickets, and take precious customer service hours away from others?

zerospin.8604:

The easiest and simplest way to fix it is to add player names to the siege. It is not unprecedented in MMO’s, LOTRO’s crafting had the crafters name attached to the items he crafted. If a 7yo game can do it, so can GW2.

The question is not whether or not it CAN be done, but whether or not it SHOULD be done. Putting your name on a crafted item is an innocent gesture to allow the player a false sense of ownership; putting a name on an object like siege, which can greatly effect the gameplay of others, is quite a different story.

zerospin.8604:

Adding names to siege is also serving another purpose. Rewarding the people who place it by making their name ‘known’. Any new player may look at the siege and see some names popping up more often, these ‘siege masters’ will hence be known to many, and even though their work won’t give them more points than a zergling gets, it would still be a sort of reward. At the moment we recognize many of the commanders, but the siege masters are anonymous, because no badge is shown for their work.

Two birds with one stone.

The risk of what I have stated above far outweighs the benefit of someone being able to “claim” their siege. The closest thing you can get is a guild emblem, and you can’t whisper bomb or mail bomb a guild.

lol the paranoia about spies etc. Its probably just someone on your own server wanting the achievement points. I was with a small roaming group and we waked into a camp with over 20 balistas, 2 catas, and who knows how many AC’s, all that siege placed wasnt just for defending the camp.

When anet decided to give rewards for achiement points, and throw siege weapons onto the TP then this is what can be expected. Yes its wasting valuable supply, and its most likely people who dont care about wvw that are wasting your supply, and there is, unfortunatly, nothing you can do about it because anet has decided that siege is the new meta for the game and even those who dont play wvw now have access to it freely.

Nightingale.8364:

lol the paranoia about spies etc. Its probably just someone on your own server wanting the achievement points. I was with a small roaming group and we waked into a camp with over 20 balistas, 2 catas, and who knows how many AC’s, all that siege placed wasnt just for defending the camp.

When anet decided to give rewards for achiement points, and throw siege weapons onto the TP then this is what can be expected. Yes its wasting valuable supply, and its most likely people who dont care about wvw that are wasting your supply, and there is, unfortunatly, nothing you can do about it because anet has decided that siege is the new meta for the game and even those who dont play wvw now have access to it freely.

Spies are real, I’ve seen the effects of them, I know commanders who profess to have spies(not on any official forums tho). FA community teamspeak actaully has had to enforce validating that you have a toon with your TS name on it in order to not get kicked

Add an acheivement, give me siege and a place to build it all? Wtf did you expect to happen when people who love achievements see everything they need in one spot?

He didn’t steal your siege. You don’t own the rights to supply at camps. The people that cap siege in a tower/keep need dealt with. This? Remove the achievement. Done.

Because someone doesn’t want to play like you do, doesn’t mean they need banned/taken care of.

There are two things I can think of that might be responsible for that which have nothing to do with people trying to have a negative impact on the match.

1st is something I did myself a couple of days ago which was trying to use siege weapons to finish off the master of overkill achievement. I didn’t know which weapon would do the most damage so I experimented with a few and ended up getting it with a superior ballista.

2nd is the supply used achievement.

If it was either of those two reasons I highly doubt the person was trying to be disruptive, they might not have realised any impact would be had being that they were doing it at a supply camp. Someone trying to be disruptive would do it at a tower.

Today, another screen of the spy’s work…. funny how it coincides with us being in need of supply after the enemy takes our borderlands?

4 trebs in Titan.

Goatjugsoup.8637:

Someone trying to be disruptive would do it at a tower.

That happened too some days back. Multiple trebs and rams in the garrison lord room and all over the keep. 500+ supply drained.

LilMcGinley.3890:

Mif.3471:

LilMcGinley.3890:

All is fair in love and war.

No, it’s called match manipulation, and it’s against the user agreement.

22. While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder.

PvP = sPvP. That means throwing matches to raise someone else’s rating on the Leaderboard and has no merit in WvW as you don’t have ratings or a ladder. And wasting supply has no direct relation to winning or losing a match.

There are ratings… and yes supply or control, or access to it does have direct relation to losing a match.

You take 3 evenly matched servers, give 2 of them access to supply, while the other one has no supply.. take a guess where they’ll end up. Unless your aware of some super ability that no one else is aware of that allows players to take down walls and gates of heavily siege’d up structures requiring no supply…

Then again, I’d say 9 times out of 10 where we see this type of thing going on.. it’s to grief or they are just plain bored. The vast majority of the time, I highly doubt it’s to try and give the other servers an advantage.

Agree, people are far more often ignorant than deliberately obstructive. Most of the ‘spy’ complaints are just down to ‘noobs’ (can I say that?) trying out some game mechanic.
I remember spending some time in my first day, repairing a wall at SM just to see how it worked.

But Anet have to take some of the blame – giving wxp for wasting supply, even a daily on the same topic. Keeps are now regularly stuffed full of trebs and arrowcarts placed where they can’t be reasonably used, right by the supply depot.

DevonCarver.5370:

That being said I think we have some interesting ideas for the future, but they are not guaranteed to make it out of testing, because they have to work.

Must work? Great to hear, but is this a recently adopted requirement for going live with updates?

Report → Scamming, because that’s somewhat what is really is. If people started to do that, we may see less issues in the future.

yeah get them banned for doing what ANet has trained them to do

Eh? Scamming? Sorry but – do you actually know what that word means?

Burning supply for no good reason is perfectly legal – encouraged even. Not my rules, blame Anet. You won’t get anyone banned for it – you may get banned yourself for trying.

(btw – the verb ‘to scam’ refers to trickery, usually a confidence trick of some sort – just in case someone really doesn’t know)

Anet doing something about people griefing others? lol good luck. Also fix what remains broken in WvW before attempting to release new and most likely also broken content.