Guild Wars 2

fix it. No reason that a class should have so much mitigation (i.e. stealth) in it and damage burst. No way a class should be able to go into a 20 man zerg without fear of dying. Get in trouble? Go into stealth and run.

Can you please tell us what exactly happened?

Is this suppose to be something new and unheard of? There are already countless threads stating the same thing. I’m guessing some thief rolled you and you had to post on the forums?

Thief was made to be bursty, and has been stated. If you don’t like having been essentially 1 shotted, I suggest you look to your gear and apply some more toughness and vitality. Too many people going into WvW with their full zerker setup they use in PvE and expecting to roll people the same way as NPCs.

Please be more mindful of your posts like this.

Play a thief so you can learn how to stop them.

Chewy.9263:

Is this suppose to be something new and unheard of? There are already countless threads stating the same thing. I’m guessing some thief rolled you and you had to post on the forums?

Thief was made to be bursty, and has been stated. If you don’t like having been essentially 1 shotted, I suggest you look to your gear and apply some more toughness and vitality. Too many people going into WvW with their full zerker setup they use in PvE and expecting to roll people the same way as NPCs.

Please be more mindful of your posts like this.

The point is they have the BURST and the MITIGATION… Not sure there’s any other class that has it in such abundance as a theif. Plus they are just plain unfun to play OR play against.

Snorcha.7586:

Chewy.9263:

Is this suppose to be something new and unheard of? There are already countless threads stating the same thing. I’m guessing some thief rolled you and you had to post on the forums?

Thief was made to be bursty, and has been stated. If you don’t like having been essentially 1 shotted, I suggest you look to your gear and apply some more toughness and vitality. Too many people going into WvW with their full zerker setup they use in PvE and expecting to roll people the same way as NPCs.

Please be more mindful of your posts like this.

The point is they have the BURST and the MITIGATION… Not sure there’s any other class that has it in such abundance as a theif. Plus they are just plain unfun to play OR play against.

I consider thieves to be one of the more fun classes to play against, actually.
The GC thieves I can melt as fast as any other class,
The actually good thieves, you can have some really fun battles with. You just have to be willing to adapt to a little more than spamming your normal attack rotations all the time.

Rly? Broke? Lately I am roaming with a rabid condition necro and I must say that thieves give me the least trouble. I see them going into stleath and droping out of it in downed mode, cuz I placed Marks and other AoE where I expect them to be…

I have now trouble though against rangers with this setup… Should I now call for rangers are broke?

if you think stealth keeps you safe from 20 peoples aoe you need to learn a few things

TyPin.9860:

Rly? Broke? Lately I am roaming with a rabid condition necro and I must say that thieves give me the least trouble. I see them going into stleath and droping out of it in downed mode, cuz I placed Marks and other AoE where I expect them to be…

I have now trouble though against rangers with this setup… Should I now call for rangers are broke?

He is complaining about the ability of a thief to kill people in zergs with little fear of death. Everyone knows a good thief never needs to die in WvW unless they chose to stay and die…. also why did you bring up rangers? The OP is not talking about 1 v 1 fights and rangers cant attack a zerg and get away like a thief can.

Shouldn’t these type of threads be considered spam at this point?

Velzer.1325:

Shouldn’t these type of threads be considered spam at this point?

If we stopped people from posting these kinds of threads we wouldn’t know who the idiots are.

Aaruhn.7049:

fix it. No reason that a class should have so much mitigation (i.e. stealth) in it and damage burst. No way a class should be able to go into a 20 man zerg without fear of dying. Get in trouble? Go into stealth and run.

Video or it didn’t happen.

Aaruhn.7049:

fix it. No reason that a class should have so much mitigation (i.e. stealth) in it and damage burst. No way a class should be able to go into a 20 man zerg without fear of dying. Get in trouble? Go into stealth and run.

I’m pretty sure that is exactly what a thief should be able to do. You can run into a 20 man zerg, you can annoy them, maybe even down 1 person. But you won’t be able to kill anyone and if you don’t run away very very fast you might die yourself. Seems balanced to me.

A lot of classes can be zerg-evasive, if specced for it (defensive warriors, d/d eles, bunker engineers, even some bunker guardians). Thief just happens to be the best at it. Personally I think instead of bringing thief down other classes should get more abilities to escape a zerg. Especially Necros.

Stealth is not mitigation. Evades and invulnerability are. I use no invis on my thief at all and I manage ok against small groups as long as they are slow and can’t catch me off guard. Personally having all 8 classes all I can say about stealthers is I never really had any problems against them if not upscaled but then again sometimes I can kill lvl80 thieves on my low levels due to low hp and easily predictable attacks.

Interesting thread OP.

I also found this interesting thread "What is “overpowered” and “underpowered”? by Zebrahawk, in supporting your Rightful cause.

“For reference, here is how I personally define OP and UP-

Professions: A profession that performs exceptionally well in many areas (conditions and control, DPS, survivability, mobility, etc.) to the point of overshadowing other professions in many of these areas.".

UP professions would be the opposite of this – they would be horrible in many areas."

I raise 4 questions..

Is Stealth Thief Broken Class?
Most Certainly.

Is Stealth Thief OP?
Most Certainly.

Is Strealth Thief UP?
Most Certainly Not.

Therefore-

Should Stealth Thief have any Fear of Dying?

Why would they?

I would love to know what class the OP plays.

And the “four questions” guy.

I bet it would be enlightening.

OMG, I know it, OP is a Ranger.

You die to a thief, you better improve your gameplay with your main.

Ranger is so overpowered at roaming and escaping that I dont even touch mine anymore, and he has twilight…

“Mitigation” is the exact opposite of what stealth does. On the mitigation/avoidance defensive scale stealth is an example of a mechanic that is 100 % avoidance, 0 % mitigation. Attacks do 100 % of their regular damage to stealthed targets, and this is something so many people, almost a year after the game has come out, still forget. Your very use of the word belies the idea that you think you can’t damage stealthed targets, and probably stop trying as soon as they stealth. When you give up attacking because you lost your locked-on target and the thief uses that advantage it isn’t because the thief is good or overpowered, it is because you are terrible.

There are good thieves out there, but the majority of the ones people complain about don’t even know how to play well and just win fights because their opponents essentially shrug and give up as soon as they don’t have a locked-on target. I get the majority of my downs (and subsequent kills) on thieves while those thieves are stealthed. Tracking and killing a stealthed target is not particularly hard, especially since many thieves drop giant red combo fields to go into stealth.

You need a mobility advantage, though, if the thief is more mobile than you then you aren’t going to catch them, stealth or not. This is the key point though: if you’re less mobile than the thief the fact that they escaped is due to mobility, not stealth.

The fact is that “stealth thief” has received nerfs every couple weeks for the past year, and the complaints about them haven’t stopped. That is because the nerfs are mechanical, and the complaints are social-dynamic. No amount of nerfs to the mechanic are ever going to change the fact that a large portion of the community just plain doesn’t want to learn how to play effectively (less reliance on tab-targeting, mainly, learning how to free-aim attacks and hunt stealthed targets). Getting killed by the weakest most nerfed stealthed thief in the world is still going to draw some complaints from people because they feel helpless and unable to defend themselves against a low-feedback combat mechanic. It is somewhat analogous to the nerfing of sniping weapons in FPS, no matter how much you nerf the mechanical aspects (ROF, damage, etc), anyone who manages to die to it will still complain because they didn’t feel like they could’ve done anything to survive (despite that not being true, in regards to GW2 stealth combat and FPS sniping both).

tl;dr – Thieves get a +10 bonus on rolls vs. incompetence, and it makes them seem godly in WvW.

Yeah what the post above me sais^^

Xom.9264:

TyPin.9860:

Rly? Broke? Lately I am roaming with a rabid condition necro and I must say that thieves give me the least trouble. I see them going into stleath and droping out of it in downed mode, cuz I placed Marks and other AoE where I expect them to be…

I have now trouble though against rangers with this setup… Should I now call for rangers are broke?

He is complaining about the ability of a thief to kill people in zergs with little fear of death. Everyone knows a good thief never needs to die in WvW unless they chose to stay and die…. also why did you bring up rangers? The OP is not talking about 1 v 1 fights and rangers cant attack a zerg and get away like a thief can.

Well, if I can without much trouble down a thief in 1v1, I should be able to down him in a 10v1 (with the 10 on my side of course) too, wouldn’t i? And why do I bring up rangers? Because they are broke from my necro’s point of view. But do I complain? No, I look at what’s going wrang (also created a ranger and tried some stuff out), checked the ranger forums for advice and now I can deal with rangers most of the times.

A group that’s getting trolled by a thief to the point that the thief downes and finishes several members of that group (assuming all ar equally geared and leveled) just needs to improve on their game.

EDIT: Only thing I find wierd about thieves is, that they can move even faster in stealth, that seems counterintuitive to me. Thieves have a certain role in WvW, like many other professions have. They are very very good at spike and stealth play and getting away. Why can’t some ppl accept that and move on to improve their own stregths and work on their weaknessnes, like most others do?

Very good l2p post! I approve its wisdom!

TyPin.9860:

Well, if I can without much trouble down a thief in 1v1, I should be able to down him in a 10v1 (with the 10 on my side of course) too, wouldn’t i?

You’d think so, but the difference is that it is usually more like 10v5+ than 10v1. In a target rich environment people’s short attention spans will usually cause them to immediately forget a 10 % HP thief who has stealthed and focus on something else.

Once again this really has very little to do with the thief though. Terrible thieves survive very bad odds all the time because players continue to act like NPCs and forget what they were doing the second they don’t have a locked target.

As a result of never being pressured in stealth, many thieves never even bother to learn proper deception meta when moving in stealth. The end result? A majority of thieves still move incredibly predictably in stealth. Why not? They’ve never had to learn anything else, since people just give up when they can’t see the thief anymore.

I would really recommend learning where your classes’ Immobilizes are, those usually cause them to be downed fairly quickly.
For a Mesmer use sword main hand and skill “3”, it sends a clone to the enemy but when you press it again (“3”) you get ported to the enemy and immobilize it.

Causic.3798:

I would really recommend learning where your classes’ Immobilizes are, those usually cause them to be downed fairly quickly.
For a Mesmer use sword main hand and skill “3”, it sends a clone to the enemy but when you press it again (“3”) you get ported to the enemy and immobilize it.

Even better
Use #3 – F3 – #3 – #2
Even when the clone is destroyed, you can still tele to where the clone used to be before exploding (tested this in pve while leveling my slave asura my guild portal for jumping puzzles)

If a thief runs into a zerg they more than likely do not expect to survive. They will probably stealth to the middle then throw around a dagger-storm hoping to pick off the low-healthers to give the rest of their team a better chance. If lucky, they will survive to the end of the skill and might be able to escape to safety using shadow-step.

If you’re saying thieves are the solution to zergs then I say buff, buff and more buff but then I play on Vabbi where my team often can’t get enough ppl to start siegerazer while our opponents turn up in zergs of 30-60.

@Tuslin
Agreed partly. It’s actually sometimes a 10v1 situation or similar. I had once a 6v1 situation, with 6 of my fellow FoW members batteling a thief. He kept trolling them and in the map chat ppl complained about an OP thief. I (mesmer) and a friend of mine (another mesmer) came up to this group, quickly summoned each two phantasms and a clone and left them… after the thief droped out of stealth the enxt time, he was downed in a matter of seconds. I had similar encoutners with my still frech necromancer helping out groups against thiefes with ease. And there were occasions, where I got owned by thieves, due to their good and my terrible play at this moment.

I have to agree on the forgetting about the thief part. Well it’s not actually forgetting, it’s more not knowing what to do. I know that feeling from my first encounters in WvW with thieves. They were “gone” and I thought, puh I survived, now let’S take care of the… and downed. It was frustrating for me, really, but I came to realize that a big part of the problem was on my side of the engagment.

But @all who think thieves are OP and to provide some constructive help. Record your struggels and upload them, se we can see, what is happening and mybe can give some advices, how one could have acted. If you keep on it, some actions come almost natural to you, when you react against thieves and down them, while they are stealthed.

Thief is one of the worst professions in the game. Some might even say they’re useless.

This is definately a learn2play issue here.

Time for my mandatory post I make in every one of these threads.

The only thing making the thief OP is how stealth itself works. If you block an attack from the one in stealth or dodge their attack, they are not instantly forced out of stealth and given reveal. Due to this, this can fall back and try again. Give them the reveal the second their attack is blocked or dodged however, and suddenly we’ll see less problems with the class in WvW.

Thieves have little to no support and arn’t very good 5v5.

If they try to help a teammate they usually die.

A thief killed me and I have no idea how, he just popped from the shadows and hit me for 100k, plznerf.

I see, I agree with that as long as they make reveal 1s instead of 3s.

Aaruhn.7049:

fix it. No reason that a class should have so much mitigation (i.e. stealth) in it and damage burst. No way a class should be able to go into a 20 man zerg without fear of dying. Get in trouble? Go into stealth and run.

While thieves are able to do what you list, in order to maximize or even do one very well a sacrifice has to often be made in another. I move fastest when i give up some stealth, i survive most when i give up damage. It is a trade off and your post reeks of frustration and ignorance.

Snorcha.7586:

Chewy.9263:

Is this suppose to be something new and unheard of? There are already countless threads stating the same thing. I’m guessing some thief rolled you and you had to post on the forums?

Thief was made to be bursty, and has been stated. If you don’t like having been essentially 1 shotted, I suggest you look to your gear and apply some more toughness and vitality. Too many people going into WvW with their full zerker setup they use in PvE and expecting to roll people the same way as NPCs.

Please be more mindful of your posts like this.

The point is they have the BURST and the MITIGATION… Not sure there’s any other class that has it in such abundance as a theif. Plus they are just plain unfun to play OR play against.

so i shouldn’t be having any fun playing my thief because i prefer it to my guardian, mesmer, and ranger?

Guardians have Burst/Mitigation.
Warriors have Burst/Mitigation.
Engineers have Burst/Mitigation.
Mesmers have Burst/Mitigation.
Rangers have Burst/Mitigation.
Necromancers have …./Mitigation.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Time for my mandatory post I make in every one of these threads.

The only thing making the thief OP is how stealth itself works. If you block an attack from the one in stealth or dodge their attack, they are not instantly forced out of stealth and given reveal. Due to this, this can fall back and try again. Give them the reveal the second their attack is blocked or dodged however, and suddenly we’ll see less problems with the class in WvW.

This could be a fix but we’ll either need some mobility or survivability to compensate

The fact that a thief can still perma stealth shows you how much they care about patching mechanics.

Player Character.9467:

The fact that a thief can still perma stealth shows you how much they care about patching mechanics.

Such comments show, how less some people understand of game mecahnics. The thief works as intended, even if some (and this are not the majority) of players do not want to accept that.

For instance, today I fought with 2 friends and a random (so 4 ppl on our side) two thieves, who were very good at stealthing and were very mobile. We weren’t able to finish them. I am sure we several times downed one of them in stealth, but the other one easily could rez the downed one without us noticing. They used the heavy stealth D/P setup (if I’m not mistaken).

We eventually desided to ignore them, cuz they weren’t getting any kills themselfes. In a moment of not paying attention one of them was hacking away on me for maybe about 5 seconds (what is an eternety for thieves, especially backstabbing thieves), but he couldn’t get my health lower than 60% or so (2700 armor on my little rabid necro).

Paying any more attention to those thieves would have been just a waste of time. After ignoring them, everything was okay then. That’s how dangerous those are.

I don’t know why this thread stil doing here. WvW forum is for WvW talking not specific classes.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief

The main problem that I see is target lock break with every stealth and shadow return, with only 3 secs of reveal most people can’t re-acquire target and use a skill other than auto attack. Melee types can’t use gap closers without target and ranged atks also require a target. I think this and the reveal not activating on a miss or blocked attack are main problems…….. you would see alot less GC thieves with these implemented.

I don’t have a problem with thieves any more. But that doesn’t mean I like them.

I think the reason you see all these anti-thief posts is because theives are annoying. Kind of like gnats or mosquitoes. Its not hard to kill a gnat or mosquito but people hate them nonetheless.

I don’t think his intention was to say the thief is broke per se. I think he is simply perplexed and quite rightfully angry at thieves because of the pure hell they get off with. I think its unfair to say he is simply “QQing”, cause we all have our days when we feel something is unfair, nobody likes losing and when we do, we often blame the game rather than our own playstyle. In this case however, I think Aaruhn has a valid point to make on this. As we all know ( and if you have any idea of how it is to play games), the issue is fairness. Thieves can be killed as many go for the glass cannon , high burst builds and it really is effective. But what is not really 100% fair is the fact that you are literally stabbing in the dark hoping to catch it with a burst of aoe or a lucky strike. I have seen good warriors, eles etc all taken down by glass cannon thieves, simple because they have stealth and are very fast. The thing is to play a good thief is a good skill and playing a thief is not easy I assure you, but I am sorry all you thieves out there. You do have things far too easy and that’s the bottom line. If you deny that, its a lie otherwise to play glass cannon in another build would be suicide. Taking into account that a few well known server teams use a lot of similar thief and Mesmer builds and in great numbers, you know it works.

I actually stopped playing my thief because as a gentleman, I knew that the current Anet configuration ( even after the last so called nerf) was frankly stupid and really far too overpowered as a class considering its armor class. The stealth feature is very unfair, after all every other class does not have an ability to stealth as much as a thief can. I kinda have to go with the agreement side of this, I know how upsetting it can be when a fight does not go the way intended, mistakes are something you can fall back from and learn from. A good example of this was in Piken BL today, fighting what I thought was one player ( an ele I think) on a very high ledge. No sooner as I downed him, a thief just appeared beside me. The guy literally was standing there through the whole fight stealthed as there was no way to get on that ledge without some portal or hack. Now I give him his due, he was gentleman enough not to intervene in a one to one fight, not many would be that gracious ( so whoever that was WTG). However the toe rag decided that with my half health he would make a meal of me& he almost did, but thanks to my engie downed burst skill I toppled his glass cannon butt over the cliff as I downed him, which I so lolled at afterwards.

And this is what I think many are complaining about, why should any class be allowed to stealth pretty limitless like that? Nobody else does, engies don’t and they have a similar health pool. So yeah, the mechanics are out of favour to be honest. These days I refuse to go into WvW with it because I do feel I was having a bigger advantage over others. As an ex -thief to be honest, I don’t think thieves are nerfed enough. Now I wait for the “QQing” cause frankly the biggest QQers are the thieves lol

Yeah ANet, we’re broke, fix us! P/P is really bad and could use some buffs for one, and there are a few other things I can think of offhand, but, oh, I’m sure you read the Thief forums.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Yeah ANet, we’re broke, fix us! P/P is really bad and could use some buffs for one, and there are a few other things I can think of offhand, but, oh, I’m sure you read the Thief forums.

Roll an engie and you will see EXACTLY what others are meaning about thieves. I highly recommend you do and you will see thieves actually get a lot more then you think. Let us know how you get on

The perma stealth isn’t the problem. The problem is there’s one counter and it sucks.

AOE doesn’t reveal them, damage doesn’t reveal them. A 10 honor badge joke of an item does – and it barely works.

Give some options outside of permastealth that output high damage – perhaps lots of blinks/teleports. Don’t allow them to finish off downed state players in stealth.

TyPin.9860:

-

You rly have to give up damage on perma stealth. I just change one major trait (decondition on stealth) and change my 3 utilities to gain the ability to perma stealth.
This however doesn’t mean that perma stealth = damage

The difference in that one major trait and gameplay, is that I’m extremely vulnerable to conditions at once. My build relies on sustained damage (and not burst), so I need several guerilla hits (I dodge out and stall the fight to gain initiatives) before I can down someone. Without the ability to get rid of conditions makes me die a lot faster. There are other perma builds that can survive better, but more survival = less damage.

Just wanted to point out. I can perma stealth alright, but it’s not something I can utilize during combat (only use it for the mesmer-thief ninja cap)

I’m loving what thread turned out to be. It’s the first interesting thread on Thieves I’ve seen here. Instead of mindless QQing, people are actually discussing.

TyPin.9860:

Player Character.9467:

The fact that a thief can still perma stealth shows you how much they care about patching mechanics.

Such comments show, how less some people understand of game mecahnics. The thief works as intended, even if some (and this are not the majority) of players do not want to accept that.

Permastealthing is something anet has said was not intended, just as the d/d ele’s mobility was unintended (and resulted in the RTL cd nerf). This is not a 1v1’ing issue, this is not a 1vX’ing issue, this is a requiring 30+ players looking around an entire keep to pin down 1 guy because his adventurer class can generate the most powerful illusion that the mesmer can do, he can make you unable to realize you are punching him in the face, walking through the blood he left on the ground, and completely ignore the scent of his burning flesh. Instastealthing without magic, midcombat, against enemies that aren’t blind doesn’t even make sense….

Hell, you can stealth off a leap finisher, even if the attack connects. Heartseeker can connect, hit some1, and give stealth your character.

Player Character.9467:

TyPin.9860:

Player Character.9467:

The fact that a thief can still perma stealth shows you how much they care about patching mechanics.

Such comments show, how less some people understand of game mecahnics. The thief works as intended, even if some (and this are not the majority) of players do not want to accept that.

Permastealthing is something anet has said was not intended, just as the d/d ele’s mobility was unintended (and resulted in the RTL cd nerf). This is not a 1v1’ing issue, this is not a 1vX’ing issue, this is a requiring 30+ players looking around an entire keep to pin down 1 guy because his adventurer class can generate the most powerful illusion that the mesmer can do, he can make you unable to realize you are punching him in the face, walking through the blood he left on the ground, and completely ignore the scent of his burning flesh. Instastealthing without magic, midcombat, against enemies that aren’t blind doesn’t even make sense….

This is exactly the point, the thief class does not make sense. It is not a magical character therefore stealth to that capability is just stupid as far as any lore would go. If it was D and D the class with its “hacks” would be laughed at,ridiculed and accused to near as on god-modding. I would understand a shadow technique that would only be heightened at night much like the useless might during day/ night of the popper food but not the perm stealth it has. Even then that it should only be a chance on stealth. If Anet did not intend for this then by god, you would think they would sort out it out instead of shoulder shrugging about it. If they can see its being abused – sort it out.

thiagoperne.7340:

Permastealth is the stupiest excuse someone can say about thiefs. If he’s permastealth what harm can he do? Only if he attacks you, if so he’s not permastealth anymore. Even if he CD over and over you stil can see him and counter that, if you can’t you just need more practice, cuz its easy. Whiners don’t win, they whine.

It is not the harm it does, it is the unfairness of it all that is the issue. You cannot target what you cannot see, it’s the laws of nature. The issue is the stealth feature is allowed to be abused almost over and over with very little cooldown handicap, it needs to be far far longer. also pair this with lightning speed manoeuvres and very high damage burst. Combine them all and it is extremely difficult to track and pin down a thief. It’s not about practise, if they halved a thief’s speed you would seriously be in deep trouble; that’s pretty much the facts. The way to take down a thief is by a lot of random attacking and hoping you get a strike. But as was rightfully said, if it takes 30 plus people to track down one person in a keep, its seriously messed up.

thiagoperne.7340:

Permastealth is the stupiest excuse someone can say about thiefs. If he’s permastealth what harm can he do? Only if he attacks you, if so he’s not permastealth anymore. Even if he CD over and over you stil can see him and counter that, if you can’t you just need more practice, cuz its easy. Whiners don’t win, they whine.

Rez a mesmer in enemy keep, port in zerg.
Break any siege left unattended.

Nice strawman.

Player Character.9467:

thiagoperne.7340:

Permastealth is the stupiest excuse someone can say about thiefs. If he’s permastealth what harm can he do? Only if he attacks you, if so he’s not permastealth anymore. Even if he CD over and over you stil can see him and counter that, if you can’t you just need more practice, cuz its easy. Whiners don’t win, they whine.

Rez a mesmer in enemy keep, port in zerg.
Break any siege left unattended.

Nice strawman.

hehe yeah , that was actually cool. Also take an engie, give Zerg atom bomb . Instant karma.