Guild Wars 2

Hello,

So lately I’ve been talking about WvW and its potential impact on the game in the long run on top of competing future titles that are introducing similar pvp modes with some friends. Something we agreed on is that WvW in its current state and combat style could be toxic to the game in the long run. It revolves around the domino effect the game mode has on the server.

So there is two instances where this domino effect can be noted in the game. First is low population maps. Lets say Team A owns nothing on this map. They manage to scavenge a group together and attempt to take some things. However, since they own nothing on the map not many people want to go in there and help. Why? Many feel they are outmanned and don’t stand a chance. So when someone does manage to pull teeth to get a group together, it is usually no where near the size of the defending team. This means that once the defending team sees they are attacking, they quickly zerg rush them and squash any players they see because they heavily outnumber them. This means that those people who were there trying quit or go to another map since they don’t really stand a chance. This means that nothing is really solved. The only solution is being in a huge guild that can gather a zerg that is big enough to counter them, this rarely happens on all servers though.

The other Domino effect instance is with guilds and moving servers. Right now Anet has a allowed guilds to become so big that if those guilds fail/disband/move, they had such a high number of WvWers in their ranks for that server that the server ends up failing in WvW. This means that the WvWers who aren’t in the guild see they no longer have a lot of people playing with them and it reverts back to the above domino effect. They then leave the server to either follow the guild or to another server that has more people/high win percentage.

There is another instance where the domino effect may be noted if they ever add it in. If they make it so that it is valuable/rewarding to win a WvW match, people will automatically lean towards server who win a lot or have a lot of “good people”. This can eventually lead to servers dieing in the WvW area.

I personally see these effects a lot and since release. I believe they are not healthy for the server or the game. Although WvW is fun, I fear thakittens ability to keep servers/this game a float will fail, especially when certain unnamed games will be released who have similar features.

Discuss

It’s difficult to combat human nature.

arKRazor.8654:

It’s difficult to combat human nature.

This is true, but quite honestly I think the server vs server large 50+ vs 50+ combat isn’t good. I mean if they ever add in a AB mode or something similar where it is still a good amount of people (30 vs 30 or 20 vs 20), the game mode ends and is like pvp matchs in terms of they start and end, have PvE rewards, basically AB; WvW would probably fail. WvW is fun for now, but as the game moves on, other mmos are released, and the population drops it may prove to cause more harm than good.

Been like that’s since long time. The sad truth is that (the majority of) people leave the map when:
-There is no commander
-We are outmanned
-We have no objectives to hold in WvW
Personally, I see it as a challenge to capture some things on enemy Borderlands, but only few people feel the same way.
The breakout event is a pretty useless, since it’s the first place where they’ll be waiting for you. Rest of the structures are Tier3 and will take ages to get with a small group.

What they need to do is implement some actual bonuses that are going to do something to balance WvW. They need to make it so that if your server is outmanned that you get a 5% damage and health increase. Do I really think that would actually be enough? No. Maybe make it while you’re outmanned that you can carry double supplies and the second the outmanned buff drops your supply reverts to normal levels. One could also make it harder to take fight NPCs. One could increase siege damage. There are so many ideas, but the XP and Karma boosts are stupid.

There is absolutely no evidence that servers are going to start running with fewer numbers on purpose for the buff. Even if it was a 10% increase to damage and health it would not be significant enough to unstack a map. Keep in mind that the better the server is doing on a map, the more people that want to join in on the fund and will inevitably crash the buff.

They would need drastic buffs for outmanned servers.. something where say 5 people could compete against 50 at once. That wouldn’t happen because the 50 would be whining. WvW seems to be filled with fairweathers.

Servers would not start running with fewer numbers for any buffs. Do you know how hard it’d be to coordinate server wide for people to stay out? Then add in the trolls, and the people with little time to play as is.

Goloith.6349:

What they need to do is implement some actual bonuses that are going to do something to balance WvW. They need to make it so that if your server is outmanned that you get a 5% damage and health increase. Do I really think that would actually be enough? No. Maybe make it while you’re outmanned that you can carry double supplies and the second the outmanned buff drops your supply reverts to normal levels. One could also make it harder to take fight NPCs. One could increase siege damage. There are so many ideas, but the XP and Karma boosts are stupid.

There is absolutely no evidence that servers are going to start running with fewer numbers on purpose for the buff. Even if it was a 10% increase to damage and health it would not be significant enough to unstack a map. Keep in mind that the better the server is doing on a map, the more people that want to join in on the fund and will inevitably crash the buff.

I’m all for bonuses based on your servers wvw population, but I’de imagine this would be a nightmare for smaller scale battles. Maybe it will only apply in the area with the largest amount of people from that server?

Though this is a fix I can only see having an effect on the servers overlapping peak hours (unless it turns single individuals/small groups into gods to battle a zerg which I like).

DeadlySynz.3471:

They would need drastic buffs for outmanned servers.. something where say 5 people could compete against 50 at once. That wouldn’t happen because the 50 would be whining. WvW seems to be filled with fairweathers.

Servers would not start running with fewer numbers for any buffs. Do you know how hard it’d be to coordinate server wide for people to stay out? Then add in the trolls, and the people with little time to play as is.

I have already written about this in some other threads:

Adding any sort of damage or offensive power to the outmanned side is a bad idea. It would seriously distort small scale and solo roamer fights, leading to insta gibbing. E.g. imagine a mere +33% damage buff. Normally a pure glass cannon thief can crit hit backstab about 20k against 2.5k armor, with the damage buff it would be over 26k crit hit, ouch!!

I am however for adding defensive buffs to the outmanned side. They should mainly affect structures and NPCs and to a lesser degree the players.

33.3% of total population per map for all 3 servers would mean a completely equally manned match up. Here are the new levels of outmanned and their effect to both health and thoughness.

<30% total population = outnumbered = +10% player buff, +20% NPC & structure
<20% total population = outmanned = +15% player buff, +30% NPC & structure
<10% total population = last stand = +25% player buff, +50% NPC & structure

E.g. if server A has 50 people on certain map
server B has 30 people on that same map
and server C has 20 people on that same map
A is 50%, no buffs
B is 30%, no buffs either (but close to having that outnumbered)
C is 20% is outnumbered and close to having outmanned

Another example:
Server A has 80 players on certain map (80%)
Server B has 15 players on that same map (15%)
Server C has 5 players on that same map (5%)

A is 80%, no buffs
B is 15%, outmanned
C is 5%, last stand

There should also be a special clause preventing a server having the outmanned buffs buffs on any maps if their total population ratio from all 4 maps is >35%. This would prevent servers from abusing this buff at off-peak hours e.g. by concentrating all players just to 1-2 maps and then map hopping, while enjoying buffs on those empty maps.

The breakout event, like I have commented in other threads, needs to be reworked. The NPC commander has lots of hit points, but it is still easy to kill it as it moves so slow. The siege placement is idiotic (way too close). The defenders just need few ACs + WXP traits to increase AC range and radius to destroy all that siege from the breakout event. Solution: increase the speed of NPC commander and veteran dolyak. Rework the siege placement. You should be able to start the event with just 5 players interacting with the NPC (a really outmanned server won’t be able to get even those 10 players required to start the event).

I am not claiming these simple fixes would stop the toxic domino, but at least they would give slightly better chances for the weakest side.

Deniara Devious.3948:

DeadlySynz.3471:

They would need drastic buffs for outmanned servers.. something where say 5 people could compete against 50 at once. That wouldn’t happen because the 50 would be whining. WvW seems to be filled with fairweathers.

Servers would not start running with fewer numbers for any buffs. Do you know how hard it’d be to coordinate server wide for people to stay out? Then add in the trolls, and the people with little time to play as is.

I have already written about this in some other threads:

Adding any sort of damage or offensive power to the outmanned side is a bad idea. It would seriously distort small scale and solo roamer fights, leading to insta gibbing. E.g. imagine a mere +33% damage buff. Normally a pure glass cannon thief can crit hit backstab about 20k against 2.5k armor, with the damage buff it would be over 26k crit hit, ouch!!

I am however for adding defensive buffs to the outmanned side. They should mainly affect structures and NPCs and to a lesser degree the players.

33.3% of total population per map for all 3 servers would mean a completely equally manned match up. Here are the new levels of outmanned and their effect to both health and thoughness.

<30% total population = outnumbered = +10% player buff, +20% NPC & structure
<20% total population = outmanned = +15% player buff, +30% NPC & structure
<10% total population = last stand = +25% player buff, +50% NPC & structure

E.g. if server A has 50 people on certain map
server B has 30 people on that same map
and server C has 20 people on that same map
A is 50%, no buffs
B is 30%, no buffs either (but close to having that outnumbered)
C is 20% is outnumbered and close to having outmanned

Another example:
Server A has 80 players on certain map (80%)
Server B has 15 players on that same map (15%)
Server C has 5 players on that same map (5%)

A is 80%, no buffs
B is 15%, outmanned
C is 5%, last stand

There should also be a special clause preventing a server having the outmanned buffs buffs on any maps if their total population ratio from all 4 maps is >35%. This would prevent servers from abusing this buff at off-peak hours e.g. by concentrating all players just to 1-2 maps and then map hopping, while enjoying buffs on those empty maps.

The breakout event, like I have commented in other threads, needs to be reworked. The NPC commander has lots of hit points, but it is still easy to kill it as it moves so slow. The siege placement is idiotic (way too close). The defenders just need few ACs + WXP traits to increase AC range and radius to destroy all that siege from the breakout event. Solution: increase the speed of NPC commander and veteran dolyak. Rework the siege placement. Even should be able to start with just 5 players interacting with the NPC (a really outmanned server won’t be able to get even those 10 players requires to start to event).

I am not claiming these simple fixes would stop the toxic domino, but at least they would give slightly better chances for the weakest side.

I love that idea. Making it so that outmanned players maybe stand some kind of chance of holding a place would probably be a lot more fun. Being in a tower with 5-10 people defending it against 30+ people and actually doing well in it would be insanely fun.

Even 10% more damage would would cause trouble and 10% defensive would be a joke since this game is so damage centric. It will also enforce blobbing even more, small havoc groups will be facing players with 25% stat boosts just because they have a friendly zerg elsewhere on the map? That’s crazy. There is also the AoE limit to contend with.

They had a good thing going in GW1, they could have upped the scale of that and with GW2 combat it still would have worked instead of experimenting with this “persistent world” problem riddled format.

gennyt.3428:

Even 10% more damage would would cause trouble and 10% defensive would be a joke since this game is so damage centric. It will also enforce blobbing even more, small havoc groups will be facing players with 25% stat boosts just because they have a friendly zerg elsewhere on the map? That’s crazy. There is also the AoE limit to contend with.

If you read my suggestion carefully, I specifically did NOT suggest any sort of damage buffs. Only buffs to health and toughness, nothing else.

The +25% health and armor boost would only occur in such situation when you have less than 10% of population on the map zone. Let’s say your server has 9 people and enemy servers have 41 and 50 people. Are you telling me that their small havoc teams would be in trouble against that server who has a total of 9 people in total, because of your players have +25% more health and toughness?

The player defensive buffs should be minor like I suggested, but they should exist. Currently the karma, magic find and WXP buffs (while outnumbered) are a bad joke.

I’m not disagreeing that the current outmanned buff is bad however, 25% defensive capabilities to someone specced for damage well help negate the downside of such setups so yes it will can cause balance problems for anyone not hanging with a zerg.

Agree the buffs to outmanned sides should be much higher, but you can’t buff individual player damage/defense.

IMO the way to go about it is to buff things like:

• player & siege damage versus structures (easier takes)
• NPC defenders for sides that have few or no structures on the map ( or low PPT) should do considerably more damage.
• structures taken by sides with few or no structure on the map (or low PPT) should upgrade faster and/or use less supply and/or have higher HP and/or spawn with free ACs when captured.

Bottom line: WVW needs feedbacks that effectively counter overwhelming odds. It all comes down to the best way to calculate disadvantage, IMO the best thing to use is just straight PPT, something like:

f = max( 0, 180 – ppt ) ^ 2 / 10000

where ‘f’ = disadvantage factor; ‘ppt’ = points per turn.

Effectively this means no bonus at all above 180 ppt, but below 180 ppt, disadvantage bonus increases exponentially, eg: 160 ppt = 4% bonus, 120ppt = 36% bonus, 80ppt = 100% bonus, 0ppt = 324% bonus.

No you can’t change the damage and defense output based on the outmanned buff, why? because small skirmishes say 5 on 5 would be unfair, while the one team has the out-manned buff and gets a stat bonus the other team doesn’t, and in that fight, it would not be fair. The orbs created the same problem only worse as it gave the bonus to the team with more players, thus orbs were removed for good reason as their buff was destroying WvW.
Boosting attack and defense with zone buffs is just a bad idea period.

keep in mind a lot of guilds do not play for points, or just for points.

Their enjoyment comes from fights, for a lot of organized guilds, from fights with other teams.

The higher the tier you are in the worse the blobing becomes, until you reach the point that every server you run up against is running massive blobs, sometimes with the full server pop on a single commander. That is simply the way to win.

A lot of organized guilds hate that play style, they do not want to blob up, and they do not want to be lagged out fights in a numbers game of 1 spamming.

So to get the fights they want they often have to move down their tiers.

The problem is that when they do really well, when you have a lot of organized groups, you climb up the rankings, until you hit the server blobs, where you then have to choose. Blob up or swap servers.

It is a continual cycle now where a lot of guild teams end up doing transfer every few months as they climb to high, and are then forced to change servers to keep getting the fights they want.

The problem is not guilds are much as the blob centric game play in the other tiers. It is more about numbers and stacking then it is about fighting, and the fights you do get are not fun. Guilds play for the fun and difficult fights, and they create their own content via guild rivalries.

If you want to keep guilds from transfering, and crashing servers, then the game play mechanics in the upper tiers need to change. No guild is gonna stay where they can’t have fun, having fun is the reason they play.