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The grenade change is not a nerf...

in Engineer

Posted by: Alturys.6821

Alturys.6821

Hello Guys

Thanks for your answers and critical observations.

I’ve seen some intersting remarks so i will give you my advice on that. Of course it’s just an advice, nothing more.

- For Pvp, yes our damage is nerfed since we don’t often stack might in pvp. BUT we can now burst a lot more with grenade, thanks to Air Sigil and we have a little bit more condition damage. A full barrage grenade + Air sigil + Shrapnel proc is serious damage, even if i recognize engeneer dps is not the better class for small scale pvp (Mesmer are probably the best, great damage, fantastic mobility and utility (10 sec of group quickness !) → See Osicat thread in Mesmer forum ^^, Thieves have a fantastic burst and great survivability thanks to rendering issues…). Engeneer have fantastic bunker builds (We can really make thieves crying ^^), some very good rifle or pistols builds, but i think they lack of something special in pvp…

- Yes if you want to maximize dps with grenade you are forced into double pistol or pistol/shield. But you will not often use your weapon so we don’t care. It’s a part of grenadeer build… You don’t invest 30 point in explosive to use your primary weapon…

- For the armor. I think it was a fair way to present damage data on a wild range of armor. The standard armor is 2600 for a lvl 80. On a 2600 armor whe are nerfed about 10% on skill 1. All other skill are buffed so i think i’ts a break even or a slight nerf.

- For the 969 base damage. It’s our base damage at level 80. For statistic comparaison, i don’t see why it would be better to use minimal damage. Average damage for one grenade is more representive of what will be your… average total dps ^^

- For the two +5% sigils. It was just a test with one of the worstest sigils combo. Ok i made a mistake on damage condition but anyway this sigil combo sould be a disaster and should be avoided at all cost. Same comment for +5% crit chance.

- As Zoel said, you can make even more dps than before BUT it will cost you respec, learning a new way of playing, maybe some gear changes… Alchemy builds seems to be the way to go but it would require a lot of testing. GW2 is a lot more complex than any other mmo i’ve played because of the huge amount of trait builds + weapon/utility choice + stuff + sigil +rune + food + combo interaction.

- With duration boon rune and food, you can go to very high level of might stacking, and long fury duration. Dont forget that the 25 point trait in alchemy give you 1% flat damage increase for each boon on yourself. So might stacking have a double effect…
I don’t say it’s the only way to go but it’s a very viable option and sigil wil help you to keep your stacks.

- For engeneer class, Anet communication is a disaster. I understand why people are complaining, i’m just trying to say: “ok, we have ways to perform even better now, but it will require adaptation…” Considering class design, hybrid/polyvalent class are always hard to balance. Like a lot of people here i don’t like the “mid-range combat” or the “this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons”.

I will nerver say that this change is an easy one. It was a nescessary one, not a good one. Sigil proc on kit should have been there since the release. This is the same for weapon scaling.

And when Anet will introduce weapon scaling on kit, they will maybe have to nerf again grenade damage…

The grenade change is not a nerf...

in Engineer

Posted by: Alturys.6821

Alturys.6821

Hello Engeneers,

Like everyone here i was first disgusted by the « nerf » to the first grenade skill. -30% was a huge number. So i decided to work around and do some theory-crafting. And i find some interesting things that i want to share with the engeneer community.

Introduction to the study :

I’ve only made theorycraft on the first skill of grenade tool kit. The 4 others skill are not included in the study, it would be too much work. Including the belt skill, the other skill have been buffed by the last patch.

I have used the spvp stuff but result can be extrapolated to pve, number will only be higher.

So far, the change i’ve included in the modelisation are :

30 % damage on skill 1
Shrapnel trait proc chance going from 6% to 15%
Some basic combinaison of sigil.

Of course i’ve included crit chance, crit damage, vulnerability debuff on target (because grenade are able to stack almost a -25% to armor.), condition damage, condition duration…

Study :

I’ve included the spreasheet at the bottom of this page, so everybody can comment or correct my result if i’ve made somme mistake. Please feel free to edit the spreadsheet with other trait/sigil and bring your proposition to community. For better visibilty i made a graph with the most important information :

[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/2w6i5nk.jpg[/IMG]

Observations :

- A bigger part of direct damage is now bleed damage because of shrapnel trait change
- We are now less senitive to target armor because of these condition damage,
- Might Boon stacking is stronger than ever because it will boost BOTH direct damage and bleed from shrapnel trait. Look at the yellow line on the graph with a full boon duration stack build. I think you can maintain a huge stack of might buff with alchemy template, and add some extra buff (Fury!) in the meal…
- Even now, Power/Precision/Crit damage stuff bring a lot more dps with grenade skill 1 than crit/condition damage stuff, except with might stacking on high armored target. However, additional simulation should be done with the complete skill rotation but it’s a huge amount of work.

Conclusion

The « damage per grenade » of skill 1 is not nerfed by 30%. We are far far away from this… In fact, with the sigils effect giving his effect to every grenade skill (even the belt skill!) and the shrapnel trait buffing damage of all grenade (not only skill 1) the overall change is a break even and could be a buff.

Anet dev said the truth, grenade damage would have been completely out of control with sigil and no changes. Try to simulate the effect of 25 stack of precision + 6 permanent stack of might to a full berszerker grenadeer with old grenade. Crazy damage here !

Even if you make a poor choice of sigil, like 2 sigil +5% flat damage, the nerf should be about 10%-15% on skill 1 and a 10% buff to all other skills including toolbelt. So the final nerf should be about 5%-10% in the worst case.

With a might stacking build, simulation showed that it’s possible to do more damage with skill 1 now than before. Because with the new shrapnel trait, you will have bleed stack (even without considering the 5 point skill in firearm branch) and the might boon give power AND condition damage.. On top of that all your other skill are boosted by the sigil and the news proc chance of shrapnel.

We haven’t been nerfed to the ground, not at all. Sigil introduce diversity and the trade of direct damage/condition damage give a little bit more versality to our grenade kit. Except for grenade kit, all the other toolkits received a FANTASTIC BOOST with sigil change, opening the way to a true diversity in our build.

This patch is not the death of engeneer. In fact it’s more like a reborn with a lot of new possibilities…

Even for grenade, considering numbers, i’ve came to conclusion that it could be a… BUFF. I think that with somme experimentation we should be able to find a grenade build for an INCREASE of 10% dps, something like that. Probably with a high might boon stacking build.

Thank you for reading this wall of text and have fun with your engeneer

Link to the xls and openoffice file: http://dl.free.fr/iLe9KqQPS

Ps : Sorry for my english, i’m not a native speaker

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