(edited by Asmodeus.8491)
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I know this has been suggested in the general discussion forum, but I am re-framing here. As far as I can see, this suggestion has not been posted in the suggestion box…
Why not make WvWvW gear the same as spvp gear? We enter the mists, equip our gear from the vendors, set up our traits , and then, instead of entering an spvp or tpvp match, we step through a gate to enter WvWvW. Everyone will have the same gear level, and all victory will be decided by tactics and skill (or whoever has the bigger zerg- but that’s another thread.) And most importantly, victory will not be influenced by gear differences.
This way, ANET can add as many gear tiers as they want. The new gear tier (or possible future tiers) will not effect any pvp aspect of the game.
My fellow players: why or why not?
When you attempt to make the case that GW2, up until level 80, was always a stat-progression game, you miss the entire point. We were willing to tolerate a relatively easy (or at least realistically attainable) effort to get to max stats as long as that was the end of it. Many of us would just prefer zero leveling and stat progress whatsoever. I’d personally rather just be able to log in, dress up a max character from the get-go, and then go have fun pursuing horizontal content (cosmetics, non-comparable skills, lore, titles, event leaderboards, sideral progression systems, PvP, WvW, etc.). However, I and many others were willing to tolerate vertical progression up to a point because we knew that it would end and we would eventually have maxed out characters to dress out in various costumes, gears, weapons and builds and enjoy Tyria in a leisurely manner. That was the whole thing for us. That GW2 also had amazing graphics and a variety of other revolutionary and evolutionary concepts baked in was icing on the cake – but the most important ingredient by far was the stat cap.
Pyro: I think quote above from the OP might answer your question about why stat cap people didn’t complain about the vertical progression leading up to level 80.
My question is to you is: once you have full Ascended, will you need another tier to grind out? If so, ANET will need to add another tier in order to keep you playing.
After 80 and max stats/perfect cosmetic, I wouldn’t need another tier in order to keep playing. I would start maxing out my alts, or go in and play WvWvW, or go chase 100% map completion, or go help lowbies through dungeons, or go RP, or etc.
Yoshi: Whoa! I’m sorry to have upset you so much.
I was just trying to point out that those who want post 80 stat progression want things one way, and those who don’t want stat progression, want things another way. The problem is that the two ways are mutually exclusive; if one group gets their way, the other group loses out.
Yoshihito.5928: I am going to keep this civil because I think this is a good thread, and I don’t want to get it locked up. When you sarcastically say that you “love how stat cap people want everyone to bow to them,” I must ask you if you have ever heard the story about the pot and the kettle? If not, ask google about it.
Masterpyro.4310: Before the Ascended Tier chase was introduced to the game, there was a tonne of stuff to do with your toon post full exotic/ perfect cosmetic; however, none of it had any ability to improve your toon (except for trying to max out all crafting skills maybe). In other words, if you already have full power, and perfect looks, how else can you improve your toon?
What you need to see is that better gear is not a real improvement. You and your new mob opponents grow stronger by the same ratio, so your bigger numbers only serve to give you the illusion of improvement.
Unless we are talking about a stat advantage in WvWvW. If one has stronger gear (full Ascended) than one’s opponents (full Exotic), then one will be able to beat them with less effort. My question here is if you start the race early, and win, how can you take pride in your victory? Its like playing Warhammer 40K with a 2000 point army against someone who is only using a 1800 point army. That 200 points (one extra unit) gives an unfair advantage.
Honestly, if they handled WvWvW gear the same way they handle spvp gear, I think this whole issue would go away (at least it would go away for me anyway.)
Mulch.2586 is making some good points about stat value versus stat performance. In a way, the grinders might end up grinding out gear that will not give them a significant advantage. If the difference between full Ascended, and full Exotic ends up being only about 5% in performance (regardless of % difference in stats), then I suppose I would be happy; the grinders got something to grind out, but they didn’t end up with gear performance that is all that much greater than Exotic gear performance. It’s something to hope for at least.
OP nailed it!
Playing pre lost shores GW2 showed me just how much I love horizontal progression, and by contrast, just how much I hate the idea of vertical progression. Now that I have “seen the light”, I just can’t go back to playing gear treadmill MMO games.
I want to say something about one of the reasons why people want a treadmill. The idea is that there are some people who are happy to grind for hours and hours because their time is rewarded with a stat advantage over those who don’t have time to grind. If they get far enough ahead, they can “melt face” in pvp without having to apply very much skill.
Another way of looking at it is that by grinding something that requires almost no skill, grinders can gain a stat based advantage over their non-grinding opponents. Their stat advantage will enable them to beat those who are more skilled but less geared, and those who are equally skilled but less geared. It will also allow them to DESTROY those who are less skilled, and less geared.
I like how GW2 spvp has no gear tier differences. If we had a similar system in WvWvW, then the gear difference advantage between Exotic and Ascended (or any other future gear tiers) would be meaningless to me. Gear grinds would only be needed in pve, and would not be needed to stay competitive in pvp areas of the game.
If grinders cannot gain a pvp stat advantage against non grinders, would they even want to continue grinding? Of course some would; chasing bigger numbers or whatever. But I wonder: just how important is the pvp stat difference to grinders?
(edited by Asmodeus.8491)
People were told that getting max level gear would always be fairly easy, and would be possible to acquire using a variety of actions (karma, gold, dungeon running, and crafting). More dedicated players (read: players who play more) efforts would never give them a statistical gear based advantage over less dedicated players (read: players who play less).
Now that the new tier has been introduced, people are afraid that what they were told is not what is going to happen. The new tier, and its special infusion items, may very well allow more dedicated players to have a statistical gear based advantage over less dedicated players.
Some may say “so what?” If they spend more time and effort, should they not be allowed a gear based advantage? Well, the answer does not really matter here. People were told that the stat gain would not happen, and now people are afraid that it might happen in spite of what they were told.
Now, the new tier has not been fully introduced, and the stat gain on the new items does not provide a significant advantage in any area of the game. However, once the full tier is introduced, it is very likely that a player clad in it will have a very large statistical advantage over someone who is not. This begs the question: once the full tier is fully introduced, will players who play less be able to obtain it fairly easily, and in a variety of ways? If not, then players who play more will likely end up with a huge statistical gear based advantage.
As it stands, the only way to obtain the items in the new tier is to grind a dungeon. The amount of time one has to grind is, by many accounts, prohibitive to players who are less dedicated. In the current climate, less dedicated players will have trouble getting a regular group together to grind the dungeon (no dungeon queue tool contributes to this).
Now ANET has said that eventually the new tier will eventually be available in a variety of ways. They have not commented on just how difficult it will be to obtain compared to the current exotic tier. Will the ascended tier become a barrier that separates the hardcore from the casual? Or will it be like exotics were: easy to obtain the stats, hard to get the good looks.
Time will tell, but until it does, I’m not going to invest any more time in GW2. Before the new patch, playing GW2 with its “easy to acquire” max power gear made me realize that I’m tired of being at a statistical disadvantage against people who have way more time to grind than me (see SWTOR PVP). GW2 looked like it might break the mold, but now it may end up falling in line. If it’s the former, I’ll be back; otherwise, I’m out.
(And before you say that the new tier will not give anyone an advantage over me in anything other than the non-competitive aspects of the game, I will point you to WvWvW; a game type that I planned on playing for my endgame)
In my previous post I said that I will wait and see. Maybe its not going to be as bad some think it will. I’m just concerned about the possiblity of a new gear tier, and eventual gear treadmill. To those who are saying that adding a single new tier at level 80 will not cause a gear treadmill, all I ask is for you to take a look at the term “slippery slope,”
I’m just adding my voice to the chorus:
Im not happy about the possiblity of a new gear tier. One of the things I like about GW2 is no crazy gear grind. “No gear tradmill” is one thing that makes (made?) this game special. If they add a “gear teadmill”, then their game is not any different than the other MMOs out there.
I will wait and see, but ANET’s apparent silence on this issue bothers me.